Sarah Barnett: ‘Killing’ It at AMC Networks

BBC America. Barnett and I discussed at length and in granular detail, the benefits of a hit, a viral hit like Killing E for a cable channel like BBC America at this time in the programming world. Barnett also discusses AMC's deep investment in what she calls forensic audience research tools to get a better handle on how the audience for AMC and its sibling channels move across those networks

and how AMC can best corral that audience data. She also gives a very candid discussion about what she's learned in the business of what she calls change management over her long career of taking over cable channels in need of rehabilitation. It's a great conversation with one of the fast rising stars in the television business. Sarah Barnett, President of the Entertainment Networks Group for AMC Networks, thank you so much for coming by today. Such a pleasure. Let's

talk to you. Guys are just on the throws now of of launching Killing Eve for its second season. This is a This is the probably the biggest, the best gift that a TV programmer can have. A buzzy sleeper success story. Came on BBC America last year as a little show and you knew you probably knew it would

get some attention because it had great auspices. Phoebe waller Bridge, Sandra Oh, Jody Comber, a name that wasn't as known here but in the US, but certainly is now it comes on your air it by dint of it's just purely how good it was. It It rises to the up, gets a lot of attention and now has now been on an awards March, and just all the good things that you could possibly want for a show. Tell me what on a business level, what does a show with a trajectory like that mean for a cable channel like

a BBC America. Yeah, I mean, we certainly couldn't have anticipated the um that the scale and buzz of Killing Eve. In fact, we would have been kind of insane had we done that, because in the world we live in today, it's so hard to break through. UM. And I can talk at some point about the reasons why I think this show did break through, but UM, it's a dream

on a business level. You know, first of all, everywhere we go, whether we're talking to advertisers, or whether we're talking to affiliates, or whether we're talking to anyone else in our industry. Um, Killing Eve is all anyone wants to talk about at the moment. It really is. Eventually, I try and move people off the topic to talk about everything else to talk about let's talk, um. So you know, I think we can't underestimate the impact word.

I mean, let's start with our advertisers. The impact with that this show has. Um not just in the pricing that our sales team are able to get now moving into a season two with this kind of success behind us, but the way it opened door opens doors to talk about other things on our network, the way it opens doors to talk about other things across the portfolio of

networks is really quite something. UM. So that's why we took the business decision to put season two of Killing Eve not just on BBC America but also on AMC. We get amazing pricing for season two. Um So, the value to the business in very transactional ways is calculable and big. The value to the business in other ways, maybe softer ways, um is every bit as big, if not bigger. It's a calling card people want to come to a network that how a show like that. Creative

people want to work with you. Creative people are interested now in coming to BBC America and through that open the door to a m C, BBC America, I f C, Sundance, the whole entertainment group. Um So, the ability that we all have to create amazing partnerships with our affiliate, our advertising and our creative constituents with a show like this is really something, and I think probably on the most

sort of mega business level. I think the the stamp that this show has in continuing to mark AMC Networks as a company that punches above its weight and as a company that has this really quite phenomenal batting average in the premium scripted world is again something that I think speaks profoundly and deeply to our investment community, UM,

and to other kinds of business stakeholders. It's important that even in a world of five shows, and even in a world where there's more appreciation for niche than ever before, there's no substitute for something that everybody's talking about. I think there's no substitute for something that becomes a true cultural conversation point. I think that's that's the holy grail. I think that's what every platform, every business, big or small, is looking for, and I think the Killing Eve is

the poster child for that right now. So we don't take that for granted, we don't take that lightly. UM. We celebrate it. We celebrate it with some neurosis because that's our that's our character and our makeup. Everybody knows Season two is often hard, and we want to find

the next one. We want to find the next Killing Eve. UM. So yeah, I think I think that that kind of the kind of cultural currency that a show like Killing Eve has is I think the fuel that can really sort of inspire a new chapter if that's not too ambitious an aspiration from it, but it's very it's very meaningful. Is that a when you have success like that, when it is you know, it is hard to bring it for anything to break out. It is hard to get

attention for shows. When you have a success like that, that is a sleeper I would imagine just for your staff, for the organization. It's such a lift you know it can still happen. It's actually wonderful, and thank you for bringing that up because it's it's actually on a personal level.

One of the most fulfilling things is to see a team that slogs day in, day out in a world where you know, we're also aware of the challenge of how many shows there are UM and how fragmented our industry is, and how hard it is to UM to get the attention of an audience to tune in UM. So when you have something like this like killing You, that breaks through, I think the elation, the potency, the pride UH and the sheer sort of joy and commitments

that doubles back. I think from from the team UM into the work that they do is is something you can't bottle. It's actually really extraordinary. There have been many cupcakes celebrations last year. Absolutely what is when you decided to put to do a simulcast on AMC and BBC

America of Killing You for season two. What is the What were the calculations that you looked at in terms of in terms of deciding whether you know, obviously there there was a potential to funnel more audience to BBC America or did you think that with this kind of buzz it would be better to give it a just a wider platform. Yeah. The philosophy behind putting Killing Evan a m C as one is BBC Mico is to use a m C simply as a marketing platform for

the show. We believe this show has um the ability to clearly have connected culturally with fans, with critics, with so many people in such a fizzy kind of way.

We're so thinking it has the storytelling d n A, the big swings in terms of its entertainment quotient to potentially connect with a really broad audience and a broad audience that a platform like BBC America, even though it can, you know, with Doctor Who and at times with Natural History programming, reach a big audience, it's just not as distributed as a m C, and it doesn't have a show like The Walking Dead that we can use as a promotional platform um to promote to Killing Eve from

I mean, of course we could promote from Walking Dead to BBC America, and indeed we do, but to promote it's always stronger to promote from Walking Dead to Killing Eve on that same platform, partly because, as they say, don't go anywhere exactly, and partly because some of those people watching Walking Dead just don't get BBC America. It's not as it's not as broadly distributed as a m C A, which is, you know, distributed everywhere you have cable.

So um. So the calculation was really that we believe that this show had proven that it had the ability to connect in a really quite stunning and extraordinary way.

Um and it actually connects with a bigger point of view that we have that I have actually in one of the exciting things I feel about how the opportunity is m with a new structure that puts these four networks together is at a MC networks is the ability to really understand how and where our audiences between the four bran brands overlap, and how and where they're different, and where we think there's opportunity to move shows from one network to another because we don't think it's duplicative.

We actually think it's just additive. We'll be doing a lot more than that, and we will also be promoting a lot more across from one network to another. And the only reason we can really do this is it's it's pretty case by case, but it's informed really by UM the ability to use some quite sophisticated performance marketing data analytics that we've built in house that allows us to really understand for the first time how and where

our audience moves between our different platforms. So I think as our competitors are bulking up and we remain relatively nimble, not on the huge size, not on the huge side compared to a you know, in large Disney or exactly, but the ability I think for us to wrap our arms as a business around the entire ecosystem of our audience, understand our audience and understand how and where we can move shows from one platform to another to speak to

different audiences, I think becomes a really smart way for us to really align our audiences and maximize our audiences and stay sort of nimble and smart and competitive. So so only seven percent of our audience across the four network percent of our only seven percent of our audience watch author networks and only six of our audience watch a MC and BBC America, which has would imagine it

is the biggest duplication. So we think there's a lot of opportunity to flow shows around between our platforms, informed by some really quite a forensic understanding and some experimentation. Frankly, you know, we'll be trying things as UM. There's a show called a Discovery of Witches which launched earlier this year, actually on our streaming services, so it's not just our linear platforms, but on Shutter and Sundance Now and also

on AMC Premiere. We launched the show Discovery of Witches. UM. It's a great show. It's it's um, it's genre, it's a vampire falls in love with a witch. It has Matthew Good. It's sort of posh but also broad. It's beautiful, it's shot around the world and but lots of it is an Oxford. It's just gorgeous. Anyway, it did extraordinarily well on these platforms that we launched it on these

streaming platforms and an AMC premiere. UM, so we then thought, well, maybe it actually can migrate to linear, so we're airing it after Klive on both BBC A and see confidence in the show. Yeah, and it all comes down to content that we believe in, content that we believe really has the sort of the legs to connect, and you saw that it has real traction exactly exactly, So we'll say, you know, we'll learn as we go. UM. So let's talk about your new role you were promoted in. You

had been running BBC America. Before that, you ran Sundance and in November you were promoted to a group role overseeing AMC, BBC America, i f C and Sundance TV. You started to answer some of my questions, but tell us what is what would you say are the benefits of that structure for running these distinct programming brands at this kind of crazy time in the programming world. Yeah. I think the main one really is the ability to understand audience across the ecosystem of brands that we have

and to program accordingly. Um. And that will means shifting content around somewhat while still absolutely retaining the discrete brand value programming reach that our different platforms have. You know, our affiliates, our advertisers, and our viewers all know our brands. You know, We don't have twenty five brands in our company.

We have sort of a handful of really well curated, really deep, very meaningful brands, all of which do something quite original, but all of which have these interesting intersection points with each other. So the ability to sort of be to see it as a sort of complex puzzle

but a cohesive whole. I think it is something that's really exciting, and I think that the teams that are coming together from the different for networks are finding that very exciting as well as I think really enjoying um uncovering talent internally the previously squirreled away in different parts.

The ability, I think to sort of pull together a team of people, so the management piece of it, and to pull together a group of people to work together in new ways who haven't previously worked together, to create a culture which is steal around understanding our brands, knowing the value of our brands, what they mean, their brands that have a lot of equity behind them, and also encouraging people to not be siloed by brand, but to think in a sort of portfolio way require some new muscles.

I think is really really interesting and I think people are very much enjoying. I think actually all humans kind of enjoy both being passionate about certain things, but also then having a sense of the bigger interconnectedness and how to work across something bigger, and particularly in the business

reality of today, we sort of have to. But I think it's a challenge that everyone's up for and writing to UM, So yeah, it's sort of it's a fascinating moment and a really interesting moment to take what we

have and create sort of new patterns from it. UM. And then I think, you know, the other thing I think that's a real advantage of us being organized in this new way is you know, David Madden now overseas programming for all four of the networks that I oversee, and for him, the ability and his team, the ability to be in the creative community buying full four of

these networks is great. And four networks that all have, as I said, at distinct point of yeah, and a real I would say, sort of creative energy in different

ways about all of them. They've all done things that sort of stand out, you know, if not as huge on the smaller networks, and certainly as a very distinctive for original, very risk taking UM so there's definite advantage there and has the I would imagine that the feedback from the creative community allowing you to streamline the ability to pitch i f C in Sundance and BBC and

AMC in one fell swoop. I imagine that would be that would be welcomed again at a time when people all I hear from people is that they're overwhelmed with the number of choices, even the number of choices of you know, where am I going to shop my comedy? Totally? I mean, I think I think comedy probably is slightly different. It's a slightly nippy Aaronson who's been overseeing programming for for i f C for a while. Our reports into David Madden, but he's sort of pretty much in his

area doing his thing. With comedy tends to be just a different bunch of writers, different people you're talking to, certainly with the scripted networks. I think it is a real advantage. I think it's also an advantage of just brag for a moment for us to have David Madman the seat. I think he's so beloved in the community, goods, such a good and so so good at what he does. Um that I love having his expertise now across all

four of the networks. I think he's I think it's one of our He's one of our weapons for sure. And you talked a lot about tracking audience and understanding audience. How much would you say, UM, you invest as a company in in understanding and that's sort of dissecting the audience that you have. I would imagine that that's a growing expenditure and area of focus for you. Yeah. Absolutely,

I mean more and law. So for several years now, we've had a business intelligence department internal run by UM, an incredibly clever guy called Vitality seven and his team, and he's been building a number of proprietary products, some of which are very much focused on the advertising world, and I would say a best in class planning tool

called Aurora that we have on the odd side. Uh. And then he's been working for the last three or four years quite intensely with Linda Shupac, who's our wonderful head of marketing, on some performance marketing and predictive analytical tools that really help us understand who to target, how to target, how to measure the targeting as we're going

through a campaign. UM and then how to post mortem um and underneath all of that, how to have some real forensic understanding of who our audiences are, what they're consuming, how they're moving around our platforms. So it's you know, and then we also have some tools is developed that

are super sophisticated. Is rolling out the two point O version of a tool we call internally pat which is about how we place promos and how we understand who they connect with, and how we can best use the inventory we have on our air for promotion to both optimize our linear business and build to our future businesses.

So how to promote a n C premiere, how to promote to our subscription services to Shutter, Sundance Now and now Acorn and U n C. So we're really looking at how we can think, if you like, philosophically about our linear platforms as these incredibly successful platforms that are still big but are the engine of the company. They are the engine of the company entirely. But how we can use how we can use the sort of incumbency we have and the strength of that that legacy platform

to help build our new businesses. How we can promote to our gaming how we can promote to any sort of comic book activity we're doing so so it's exciting a lot of tools. How much do you when you program, how much do you think about programming for that live linear audience versus programming to somebody who's gonna either record a bunch of episodes and wait or go to go to your AMC Premier. Is your subscription service that allows people you know early access two shows or or to

an authenticated platform. Is that do you calculate that in your just terms of the timing and how you when you launch shows, when you roll them out? So is your question more around slots, timing, content acquisition or around the actual creative we are looking for the nature of the storytelling. Yeah, that I would say both. Actually, it's

a really interesting question. Um. We tend to juggle pretty much between our Lidea platforms and the slots that we need in order to both retain audiences, be vital with enough original content fit into the upper schedule that our advertisers need. Um, so we're pro programming for that. On the linear side, we're increasingly also folding in the content acquisition needs for AMC Premiere. So um, they're differentiated offering tends to be around early content and binge able content,

and obviously add free content. So it's a little checkerboard right now. It's sort of one or a combination of those three things that will be their differentiator. Sometimes it's early, sometimes it's not because of production schedules. Um Sometimes it's possible to binge an entire season prior to us launching it. Sometimes we choose not to because with certain shows there's a big conversation with the writers and the show runners

around spoilers. So it's an interesting moment where we're both protecting linear and the linear experience and the linear numbers and at the same time fueling and driving new business models. It's fascinating. I think we're learning a lot right um in and the kind of engrossing dramas that your channels that you certainly am C and Sundayans and BBC are

known for. You know, I think it's there's no question that the audience has spoken and that there is a real you know, there's almost a you know, there's a generation almost that has been trained now to watch those kinds of shows, particularly without commercials. Is that on the linear side, is the need to service that advertising. Is that becoming you know, is that becoming a bigger hardship for you in terms of and are you looking at any potential models to kind of limit the number of

interruptions or get around that? Yeah, yeah, I mean that. You know. That's why something like cleave popping and jumping out in a AD supported environment is sort of remarkable, the numbers that continue to be there in spite of the fact that the headlines are written or sort of about slippage, but the continued primacy of of the Walking

Dead in cable. UM. We do think that there are certain things in a linear environment that has a necessity of having ads UM, there are certain storytelling ingredients that need to be there. I think it needs to have big swings, It needs to have um cliffhangers built in, not just at the end of an episode, but equally

at acts. I actually think there's something about the craft of that kind of TV writing that can get a little bit lost, frankly in the amorphous nous of a season being dropped and there being no necessity to the shaped Yeah yeah, twelve one, So there's no need for the cliffangers, There's no need for that sort of structure. I mean, I think the Yeah and Breaking Bad was probably the the to me, the sort of the absolute

sort of perfection of the form, if you like. But I think a lot of sitcoms too, are written in such a smart way that have always been UM very much informed by the US form of television, which has breaks in it. So I think a lot of our content is formed in a way where we believe there's a propulsion to it and a certain kind of high entertainment value to UM to the shows that it will pull people through the forming watch in which they watch it.

A m C premiere is really our first to market experiment within our m v P D ecosystem of presenting to audiences another way of watching. So it's an upsell you pay for and you have the ability to watch a m C shows early, uninterrupted, UM and with other

kinds of extras. Another kid that I mentioned earlier. So so yeah, so we're we're again experimenting with the ways that people want to watch, but continuing to make content that we believe is sort of to some extent created in a way that we're us in our environment on our platforms. That's it's all order. How has the uptake been on AMC Premiere. It's been encouraging. We're ahead of our projections. We don't give numbers, as you probably know. Um,

but it's done well. I mean Walking Down has driven a lot of it Discovery, of which is was remarkably successful when it was the highest it was the most successful show on Shadow and Sentance now and up there with AMC Premiere. Um, it's doing well where we're encouraged, you're encouraged to keep to keep it going. Yeah. Interesting. Um, let me ask you, obviously, it's it starts in in many cases ends with content. Right now, there's no shortage

of competition for you know, for talent, for stars. You a BBC America. You had invested a lot in promoting these incredible BBC Natural History documentaries. A couple of days ago there was a headline BBC has done a deal with Discovery. It's a cutthroat environment. How do you how do you compete in a world where you've competing against companies with you know, balance sheets bigger than some small European countries. Yeah, I'll come back to the natural history thing.

It's interesting. Um, generally we compete in the way we've always competed We've never been the biggest. If it was all about giving orders and writing checks and everyone would have killing Eve walking dead. But of course Aul and they don't. We've always we've always competed by being savvy and having an eye across the boarder spotting good scripts and good talent. You know, it's mad Men, breaking bad and killing Eve for all scripts that have been overlooked

by other people in other places. I think we're good at that. I hope we continue to be good at that. I think for a place where creative storytellers want to come for us, it isn't about assembling a big, shiny package of big names. Necessarily. It starts with a great writer having a alarmingly fresh idea that they have to hell, and then building around that, facilitating around that, staffing around that. Um.

That's you know. I've always run, as you know, she said, pretty small scrapping networks on the BBC, Mierica certainly didn't. Aren't the most deep pocketed networks in town. Um. But I think it is always about to me, that's interesting. It's always about finding where the talent is, you know, trying to stay a little bit half a step ahead of where you think the audience is where you think the creative mood is going and then coming across great people. I think we have the team with David and his

team to do that, to continue to do that. I think a MC has always been at its best when it's sort of veered left sharply, when it's subverted itself and done something surprising. UM. So we're excited about the next step to come back to the natural history thing.

It is competitive, and you know, it doesn't surprise me that everyone wants to get their hands on these trought BBC Studios productions because they are transcendent and connect with audiences that I think is actually quite deep and profound, particularly a time of such division and separation. I think there's something actually almost I'm going to use a big word, but almost spiritual about how they pull people together. UM. We continue to be the home for the biggest natural

history content in America. UM. These shows have always existed on Nestpot platform. It was previously Netflix. Now they're going

to discover it. So I don't blame David Zaslav. I utterly understand his desire and uh declamatory um enthusiasm around how great these shows are I feel very confident that BBC where continues to be the biggest US home for natural history content in the United States and will continue to WEI just completed a five year deal with BBC Studios a few months ago to be the home of their biggest iconic tempole natural histy documentary shows that come off of BBC one So Planet three will be on

BBC America, UM, Frozen Planet three or is It Too Frozen Planet to UM, and a number of other of these sort of iconic shows. So, and we have a lot of ambition around what we intend to do with them and how we invent. We intend to continue to elevate all the natural history content. I actually think natural history content is a very interesting UM. I think natural history content plays actually very well in the linear environment.

I think there's sort of something wonderfully relevant with this content about people being time bound in how they watch it and watching it at the same time as other people, because I do think this content is something like that

pulls people together and reminds us of our connectedness. We used this this phrase for the last few tem poles on bbcmor Echo, which was gathered together, and that does feel like there's something Actually that is meaningful, um in that offer that only linear TV can really do that to come together at the same moment to watch this

sort of incredibly transcendent and connecting storytelling. And they could not Planet Earth and Blue Planet could not come at a at this moment when we're talking about climate change. It could not come at a better moment to remind us, you know, when whenever one of those great shows is on, my friends have to listen to me, to my speech. But this is what television can be. This is so

to your point. Absolutely, that's good to know. I think the assumption reading that headline was well, those things are going away, but it sounds like there's a there's a there's a lot of rights to go to split and go around for the for the natural history that are we'll be making an announcement pretty shortly, which is very good.

That's good because I know that I know that you guys have invested quite a bit in those um Uh, let me ask you for you personally, coming in to a role like this where you've had a big step up in authority and responsibility, the number of people you know, feeding into you, how has that been for you in your career as you've stepped up to higher degrees of

management and seniority. Is management something that came easy to you or was it something that it took you some time to learn how to how to lead a group of people. UM. I think as the oldest girl in a family of six children, I probably have an overresponsibility take up. But I don't think that necessarily equals a good manager. I think it means I rush into fill avoid but I had a lot to learn. I don't know that there are many naturally good managers in life,

maybe a few sort of incredibly evolved humans. I'm certainly not one of them. The biggest sort of step for me in terms of my leadership learning was when I first became GM of Sundance Channel as it was then called.

And I previously run to apartments, but I hadn't run a team, and I hadn't I hadn't been in that position of leadership in a way where the expectations become so exponentially higher on you, not just in terms of fulfilling the job and the specifics of the job technically, but in terms of what people expect you to carry for them, um, and what people project onto you and what people's needs are around that. UM. And I've always taken over leadership roles, both Sundance and then BBC America

and now this role. I've always stepped into jobs. There's not just taking over the job from somebody else, but actually taking over at a point of massive disruption. So I took over Sundance when it had just been brought by AMC Networks, big big shift. You know, we weren't rated prior to that. It was a very very different time. UM. I took over a BBC America when it's equally half of it was bought by BBC America and it was taken into BBC into ANC Networks operational control. So again

big big cultural shift. Team that have been used to working there's a sort of satellite into London, UM, suddenly in this sort of different corporate structure. And now I'm moving into this role at the time where it's not just taking over Charlie Collier's role, but a sort of differently configured job. Very much so yeah, really so. So I've grown some I've gown some muscles in the area of change management. But it's you know, I guess one of the things that I've come to believe so strongly.

Sort of feels intuitive, but I kind of had to learn it was is how important tum is, how important having not just great people but the right configuration of people around you is, and how important it is to sort of build that see that shape, that structure that. So I've inherited and brought with me in this role

some incredible people. So I feel very very lucky in that sense, um, you know, And I think that the the thing that I'm sort of figuring out in this role from a leadership management point of view is I sort of got used to running a network, running for

networks and am supremieer. I can't do it in the way I did it before, so I sort of have to understand what to let go of, what those things that matter are, and how to sort of be in touch with the leavers that I have to be in touch with, and to let go of some other things. So it's a process. I would say, I'm still in it. I'm enjoying trying to figure out what that is, UM, but it's you know, and everything's going so far there's no good to touch well UM, partly because the team

is has been quite seamless. Um. But yeah, I would say I'm still trying to figure out exactly where to be where I don't have to be a lot of time in l A a lot of time there with David and his team. Um, less time in London. But it's yeah, it's you know, and then there's sort of some some sort of like reassurings to let's at the top of the SEE network. So we had Carol who's been my boss for the past gosh ten years or more.

It's still my boss, you know. Josh Sapan, who's been the CEO for many years, is still there, and we're all sort of in it together, wrestling with what it is to keep shape shifting in response to the big changes in our business. Um, I couldn't be in it with better people, couldn't imagine being in it with better people. I think there's a nimbleness that comes from our size. I think there's a great spirit in our company. Um.

So yeah, we're all up for the challenge. Tell me of all the things you know you've got juggling a lot of networks, any any one or two things, anything that you're really excited about programming with. So by the time it's as Brot Meyer as I'm speaking to you is launching tonight. Super excited about that. It's season three. Hankers Areas is an absolute passion project is to see it when he's on screen. So I think someone said maybe it's a character in the show. I can't remember.

Maybe it was a reviewer. He goes from drunk asshole to sober asshole. UM, and it's just, you know, it's just amazing, it's fantastic. It's like nothing out it's perfection. UM. Super excited about killing even Discovery, which is of course, and I'm really excited about The Terror season two, which

is coming back later this year. It's UM. It's sort of an extraordinary um contained horror series that is based starts right around the time of Pearl Harbor UM, so it incorporates and it's a community of Japanese people, so it's sort of immediately sent to internment camps. And then it also, you know, it's a horror series, so there's also a j horror, Japanese horror theme that spreads through it. It's beautiful, It's unlike anything else I've ever seen. It

has an incredibly sure hand. Really excited also about a show called nos Ferato, which is from Joe Hill, Stephen King's son, So a good pedigree there. It's horror stars an amazing young woman, UM called Ashley Cummings, who is a fantastic protagonist. She's sort of there's something very you want to protect her, but she's sort of a fighter. Like all guit horror, its grounded in your psychological truth. Um. Zachary Quinto plays is sort of creepy. You know what's

creepier than Christmas time? He sort of perverts Christmas in this fascinating way. Um. So there's a lot coming up on the network. So I'm really excited about State of the Union. Sundance is an innovation in form. It's written by Nick Hornby. It's directed by Stephen Frears, has Chris O'Dowd and Rosamond Pipe. I've just in a few episodes stuffed one of talent. What did you think it sounds silly?

I loved it. They were ten minutes. It was actually very you know, as anybody will say, you know, and writing short is harder than writing along, So I was. I was incredibly impressed at the you know, the economy and just how well they were presented and how much you got into the characters in such a short time. It was very eye opening, you know, because we're so used to you know, fifty minutes or you know, twenty

two minutes. But it was very interesting. And of course Rosamund Pike and Crystal Dowba that you was casts so well, so perfectly. It's very interesting. McCom is pretty smart. He's genius at writing men and women. He is genius, and he understands relationships in such a smart way. I think

he's incredible. Um, and I think that it is the perfect conceit to fit the form, because you know, it is hard, as you say, but to come up with this idea of ten minutes prior to a couple's therapy session in a pub is just brilliant because each week you've had a week that's gone by, you have material for them to talk about, you have the anxiety of than then going into this therapist's office. Um, it's sort of perfect. It's brilliant. So we're gonna launch that in

May on Sundance TV. So that's super exciting to be experimenting with form there and doing something quite innovative. Um. And then we have some stuff in development I'm really excited about as well, something called sixty one three, which is from UM Peter Moffatt. It's we partnered them with Michael B. Jordan's outlier company and it's sort takes on the audacious, ambitious topic of race in America. UM. It's

incredibly moving, it's propulsive. UM that's in development. And then a show called I'm not sure if your podcast will have to bleep this, but it's called Kevin Can Fuck Himself working title from a Sheeta Jones, and it's a sort of it's a where it's a it's a really cool show that it starts and it looks like a sort of multicam sort of traditional comedy. Then it's a sort of obnoxious husband and the long suffering eye rolling wife and there's a bit of banter. She leaves the

room cut too, single camera follows her. She is miserable and planning to kill that slob of a house bold. So it mixes a sort of comedy. So it's quite sort of matter, I guess, and how it's sort of how you see something, the perspective of something. But it's funny and it's sort of picker usk and it's um really ambitious UM, and I think could be quite cool. So there are a few things in development that I'm really excited about. I can see it, I can hear it.

That's wonderful. Thank you, Sarah. Thank you so much for stopping and to talk with us about some pretty weighty issues. I really appreciate it and good luck to you. Thank you Sin this great chat. Thanks for listening. Be sure to tune in next week for another episode of Strictly Business.