'Peaky Blinders' Is Over. But It's Really Just Begun

my guest today producer Karen Mandebach. More with her in just a moment. My guest today is Karen Mandebach, one of the executive producers of Peaky Blinders and so much more. Her name is well known to any student of TV history, with credits including TV mega hits like The Cosby Show, Roseanne, That Seventies Show, just to name a few of what she's produced with former partners Marcy Carcy and Tom Warner.

Thanks for joining us, Karen, Hey, Thanks Andy, Thanks for having me great So let's I want to start with the basics, because you are unique in the TV landscape as a true independent, but I want to make sure people understand what exactly that means. So walk us through

your arrangement. All right, Well, I started in the business with Marcy actually, who hired me, having left ABC a long before Dirt a long time ago, and she was going to be an independent She's I was the first person she hired because I was already a producer, which was weird of course, because I was a woman and young at that time. She then wanted Tom to join her, so I was actually hired before Tom. But that was

the India of all indies, you know. We ended up being so fortunate that it was the right time, but also we were good And Marcio used to say that Eisner, who was earlier than her boss, just wanted one hitti or just give me one hittie or and it's not there, find it? What is it? It's missing? It should be there. So that was the training is to be independent. And then we saw the writing on the wall in UH

after the finn Sin ruling. For all the kids out there who don't know what that is, a long long time ago, the network the networks, having no experience in producing things themselves, decided what a good idea, will take a chance at it. This is around the time that we were doing Third Rock from the Sun, and I actually have a T shirt that says I survived fourteen time Slot moves Third Rock from the Sun because because they used us to build up their nascent offerings, fourteen

of which didn't work. So we were used to being uh kind of an independent and then used where the networks themselves to buttress their own efforts. Having had that, Marcy went her way, Tom with his I left him. I did Nurse Jackie as an independent. I had a deal with lions Gate, which six weeks later God nursed Jackie just popped right out. It was great, Bob, it was wonderful. And then uh, I took that sort of

idea of the business model. It was my I p Actually the real nurse Jackie was my god daughter who cared. But true story, and um, yeah, so I saw the I piqued to them. They were great lions game. It was great. And then I thought, what a good idea. I'll just move to England because they'll let me. I've gone to school here, I have friends here, and they'll let me. You know, they'll let me be an independent because we were sort of oh you know, they'd say they wanted Sony or or somebody to be one of

their arms dealers as it is. No, they really didn't. It was like my show, your show, my show, your show. Well your show is better, but it is my show. There were no indies. Within a minute we were run out of so here in England they were extremely open to it. It was the business model it still is and it's a very healthy ecosystem. So how that works. As you invest your own money, you go to the bank, much as I remember Marcy had to mortgage your house to set up the Cosby Show in um in New York.

So I did the same. I didn't mortage my house, but I moved and then got lucky. That's the second thing. I gotta get lucky. Invest your own money, then get lucky. And I guess you got lucky stumbling upon Peaky Blinders. Uh, talk about how that came to light? How you how did you get that show going? Well, it wasn't it

wasn't anything you know, complicated, Steve Knight. I guess looked at our background, having once been a comedy producer himself, and decided to that myself and the guy who actually does the work, Jamie glazebrook Um We're perfectly good for this project. He pitched. Actually two projects we went to and Mensa, who is a buyer now at net like she was at the BBC at the time. She said to Steve, which one you want to do first? He said,

I want to do Peeky Blondess first. She said great, She commissioned it and then she left to go to Sky the next day on Southern you have it. And then six months later, um, you know we got a green light. Now what was it about a show about turn of the century gangsters that was to use something to bet on? What? What was it about this intellectual

property that you had such faith in. I believe that the outsider is the person that we should talk about most, the person who wants something that and is not currently represented. That's whether that's a middle class black man or an overweight white working class lady. Neither of those people or those images that are appeared on television or in a

funny way that seventy shows representative it. You know who's I remember the distribution guy saying to me, well, Fox just got baseball, you better do eighteen to forty nine year old men, And I said, well, there's no such is eighteen to forty nine year old men. You know, there's only like eighteen year old men and forty nine year old event So I did the math and that's how the seventy shows. But they weren't represented at the time. That kind of kids today, So whatever generally isn't on

And if they're outsiders, no one cares about them. It's the people who aren't there, and certainly the men who have been um so traumatized by the war. And that's how that continues through time. You know, my dad bought in World War two and he still hung his thing up, but he wouldn't talk about it. So's it's every outsider recognizes every other outsider. So that's the trick, Peaky and also to Steve's having written the most extraordinary, dirty Pretty

Things in Eastern Promises. You know, you'd have to be an idiot not to note how radis. Yes, that great, that was David Cronenberg. That who did that movie. Um So, talking about outsiders, you were a real outsider in the UK despite all your success in the US. What how on earth were you able to get traction in the UK business being a relative unknown? Again, Uh, the intellectual environment and the ecosystem was open two people like me.

I was. I wasn't brit to the extent I needed to be, and Um later I actually did, you know, past the citizenship test and stuff. But in a in a way, I hung out in Britain for so long. I'd always bought the rights well before everyone to various television shows that were British because I went to school here and I felt, especially in comedy, I felt comfortable with the language of it. I don't know, I was just lucky again, and I think they did respect the

job of producer. Um, wherever you came from got it. So getting back to being an independent, it's safe to say that there is no way you could have done what you did in the UK here in the US. Why is that the So I want you to sort of break that down and how the UK has been able to sustain uh the independent role well in the first place. I believe that the Finnson rule long ago was something that the corporations needed because though they had

technically they didn't do anything. They had. They had one show I think I can't remember, maybe it was that Civil Shepherd one with Bruce willis that that they actually owned and that they actually produced. They didn't have the skill set. They were just distributors. So Marci long Ago empowered people to be indies. So there was Aaron's belly. She empowered those people. She empowered Susan to do Golden Girls.

This was these were not production companies. So then conceptually production companies indies became really popular because they did the work. They really did all the work. Everyone well, my ageny will will remember corporations into the work less moonvest Ran Warners at the time, and he had eleven shows on and only one in the top ten. I had three shows on and they were one, two and three. You know, sure for a long time because you're focusing on the

one thing, which is the work. You know. And as much as you admire corporations now in the UK, there was always a culture because don't forget it's there, money making corporation. They're just there. You signed a check if you want to be part of the the ecosystem that gets so much money, so much um benefit for their money. I personally would pay for BBC just for Radio four.

You know, you get radio, you get TV, you get supports, you get everything from the BBC for just so it's government run and people really really feel strongly it's the best brand. You know, people feel super strongly about it. Whereas do you really care which corporation does well in the over nights? So what about this age that we're in now with global streaming services like Netflix where Peaky Blinders plays in the US and so many other markets.

Is the independent any more or less advantaged? Uh? In this world where you're you're you're playing with companies that make the A b c s in the US from twenty years ago look like mosquitoes. Yeah, um, I think you're I think everyone is struggling to figure out how to deal with them and their behemoths, and theyre going to give you money and you're grateful on the one hand. On the other hand, it's very difficult if you're a

corporation like Disney is having a problem. Now you know everyone's having a problem, So it's difficult, no matter how you look at it, um to interface with these behemoths. But I'm just I'm just so lucky. It's just astonishing. You can't even believe how lucky you work with a distributor. I believe Tiger aspect, no Tiger Aspect is not a distributor. It's called Bantaja the company h and so they distribute the product. But what is distribution? Basically calling up Netflix

and saying would you like this show? You know, this was back in two thousan twelve. Okay, okay. So in terms of this new world and the streaming giants that run it, there's been increasing talk or frustration with the so called cost plus model, getting paid up front not getting any back end. How does that sit with you? Not? Well, it doesn't sit well with the Jeff Siganski, doesn't sit well with Peter Turner, it doesn't sit doesn't kids that

I grew up. But you know, it's not um. It's not easy because you're not incentivized, but it is what you've got. And I really truly believe that being an indie is the best thing you could possibly be. Right now, I think there's a lot of energy. I'm sure there's trouble that there's so much energy coming from the into

what remains of the independent sector everywhere. And obviously I live in Europe, so an hour and a half from now, I'm in Amsterdam, you know, in an hour and a half from now, you know, you're in Reno, but you know it's a it's a larger I mean, apart from Brexit, it's a larger community of a lot of independent, brilliant people. So back in the day, Roger Corman, you know, it's never it's never gonna end being the indeed, so we'll face whatever problems we've got in terms of distribution, and

we'll do it. If we have a hit, we're gonna have a hit. Well to that point, I guess my question is, how do you know whether you have a hit in a world where the streaming services don't necessarily give you much of any relevant data to the performance

of your show. It's just initially, because this all happened to me at the time it was happening to everybody, my timing was great, you know, and lucky as ever, how do I know, I think you're you're looking at ratings here initially, but then luckily, social media happened at the exact same time when Peaky was beginning. So, I mean, we have amazing social media stats. We have six million Instagram followers we've got and all over the world. Got

the report from Parade Analytics. It is a stunning example of how popular, how much we've affected people and how did we know? We got um so much feedback from so many important especially artists called us talk to us from odd places, you know, really strange. The artists will do it for less money than they It was all. It all came from the generosity of the spirit of the folks that we worked with, and we're lucky to work with. All of our villains are unbelievable. They didn't

have to you know, do Peaky Bondies. How about the music itself, the essence of rock and roll, All those deals that we made, No one got paid what they should have gotten paid. It was for love and it was for It was so that the answer to the question, you do good work and a lot of people want to be associated with you. We'll be back in just a minute with more with Karen Mandebak. We're back with Karen Mandebak, who was talking to us about this sensation

that you produced known as Peaky Blinders. Karen, I want to talk now about this. I hope you're not offended if I call it an aggressive brand extension strategy for Peaky Uh. Talk walk us through what your strategy is, because it's it's quite interesting. Well, if you were not to compare myself in any way to George Lucas, but if you if you did create an family at the center of what we're talking about, if you did a great hit, you didn't. You don't know the manifestations. You

don't know that there'll be DVDs. You don't know that there'll be laser choices. You really you know you don't know, but you ask questions. So I just asked everybody, what do you think? Because people here in England go to Abram Mitzvah dressed up as as a peaky blinder. There are weddings right around my neighborhood, all peaky blinder themed. They embody the feeling of the peaky blinders so deeply

the haircuts that you know that. I went to Paris the other day and some waiter said to me something and I just looked at and said, I bet your a peaky blinder. He said, yeah, I am, And he said, but if my father ever knew I was talking to you, and I said, tell me more. He said, my father and I don't speak except for we talked about peaky blinders. So so the depth of the appreciation, I mean, the social media. UM demands that we've been given by parad

Analytics are off the charts. They feel it. So what does that mean? I don't know. It's a it's a great adult not child brand, so we don't aren't going to do toys or obviously razor blades. But there there's a media. Could be animation, you know, it could it could be virtual reality, don't know. Right now, we have immersive theater opening in Camden. I think it's gonna be a big hit in UM in July. You know what I mean by mercive theater sort of interacted? Explain a bit.

Is UM the the improvisational acting community which I was a part long, long, long time ago. UH invites you to this. This is Encampden. It's a giant former horse stable UH grade two listed, so you know, don't take it down. UH. And you come and you give us your money, and then actors invite you in and then you don't know what's happening to you. But you're improvising with actors and they're going to take you through a peaky blinders experience. And more than that, you needn't know

because if we're not telling our secrets. But fans of the show will be it's kind of like going to Disneyland and being a pirate. Wow. I mean, but where does an idea like that even come from to do that? The theater community and uh, you know, also where does the idea we're doing the ball around? Their dance company is doing a Peaky Blinders dance. Uh, and you know,

we can't call it bale. It's a dance performance all over England and starting in Birmingham and then hopefully all over the world, so that in that case it doesn't sound like it's the execution on that particular I P. Does that not originate with you? Do? They come to you and you license, and they come to us and we say it should go a little like this, and then we look at their work and we just thank them.

If there are so many talented people that want some kind of don't forget it's it's like a four quad thing. Everyone likes it, men, women, young, old, you know, everyone who's got Netflix basically and BBC I Player here. So it's an incredibly deep experience. They really feel in it.

I don't know how to explain it. I really wish because it's like magical thinking to a certain extent, I want to feel like they feel they really feel it deeply if you read, you know, just this districts on the on the data about how people are experienced it. They love it, and it's because they want to. They want to embody the difficulty and the and the joy

of trying to be aspirational in today's society. So are all these extensions of people coming into you and saying, hey, we want to do X or does it ever flow the other way where you guys say, hey, we have an idea for this, let's go find someone to execute. It's mostly the former, um because because it's really difficult to get your brand extended in any meaningful way. And so yeah, we we go to well, obviously do the movie and TV stenofs, that's us, but it's the that's

what you'd expect. But the other stuff is so um important because people really feel it, and you've got to honor that. It's a two way thing. Now, virtual reality and peaky Blinders. How do these two come together? I can't even I don't know, I don't know. We're just at the beginning stages. Who knows. Do you even understand it? I mean, you know, I talked to Matthew Bob. He speaks to me, and I'm like, I don't what is he saying? But I do vaguely understand the concept. And

it's the universe. You want to embody, you're playing a role, and it's um. I'm not saying it's biblical, like you know, the Magi Christmas Pageant, but it does have it has a deeper meaning too. Well. Everybody fits into the universe in a way. I know. I'm at Polly for sure. So from a business model perspective, it doesn't sound as if all these extensions are sort of, you know, critical to making the best profit you can off the show. It almost sounds more like it's gravy, like it's happenstance.

Is that fair to say? I don't know. I don't know. Again, as George Lucas worked up for him, but in the because you know, he borrowed money from his friend Franciscopola in order to do movie too, So I really don't. I don't know how it's going to turn out. We all are in on chartered Waters, aren't we, all of us. Well,

let let me put it this way. It's not as if when Peaky Blinders first started, you said, okay, okay, so this is something that just sort of it happened, and it's like, okay, you know, we're just responding to whatever is happening on earth right now. We just are very lucky that I own the I P. And there's I mean there's more. There's jewelry, clothing themed barber shops and pubs. Well, now, the Bushmills one is interesting because

there was some legal action around that. You know, you had other beverage producers that went of their own accord to make well were they naughty? I want you to walk through the legal issues here because I think to them they didn't feel as if, because Peaky Blinders is sort of a piece of UK history, that they felt they needed to even get your permission to do that. And I gather you disagree, Yeah we did and we won. But um, I don't know. The legal technicalities are everywhere.

If you walk around in London, there's a place called Perky Blenders, you know, the coffee place. So it's it's being it's being usurped in every possible way. The specifics of the bush miose things I don't know. All I know is, uh, you can get some Irish whiskey because that's what Tommy Shelby drank. Okay um, I mean, let's

put it this way. Do you have people accountants whispering in your ear that you know, if all these brand extensions go, well, this could be you know, like the like the syndication money train of old or hey, this is just a little incremental profits and enjoy it. Like gosh, I wish I knew, But we feel so passionately about honoring Steve's vision. It really is an important thing. And you know, we get a call at the very beginning, we got a call from Snoop Dogg who said he

just really respond to it, like really right. You know, then you start to understand it does have meaning to everybody who feels that there or Lebron you know, there's there's an odd um kind of it's the number one showing Brazil, you know. Yeah, so you get you get a sense of how meaningful it is to people, and you honor that and whether or not it's remunerative. To be honest, it never happened to me before. I have

no idea. Now I'm surprised that whether it's Netflix or BBC, that they're not trying to sort of dick wolf this concept and do you know Peaky two and Peaky Los Angeles or I mean any of that brewing? No, okay, but why dude? I think it's because the the truth of it comes from uh people like us who who have done the work, and they're just looking at it like a corporate decision. You know, we're we're very interested in maximizing every bit of profit of is like, but

we have to do it because we feel it. We have to do because it's the right thing in the right time, in the right place and the right era and the right Is it Boston or if we do did it in America, would it be I don't know where the gypsies and what's the all another the creative leads of business? Okay, but you know when you mentioned something like it's number one in Brazil? Could we see you know, I'm I'm sure some of your hit shows from back in the day have been recreated in a

you know, localized kind of way. No they haven't. They haven't, Okay, but but you know what I mean, other sitcoms certainly have. Could we see a you know, I don't know Brazilian, but Portuguese Peaky Blind. I mean I could, I could give them the rights, Yes, I could. I know. Uh Turkey, as a matter of fact, it asked for the rights at one point. But I would have to also work with the suppliers myself too, because we have to honor the essence of the brand. It's very difficult. You know,

comedy doesn't travel. I'm sure you know that. But they laugh out in Spain. Uh, they don't laugh in Italy. But in that's why comedy it's a shame because everybody is trying to cost cut, and comedy would have been a good way to cost cut, you know, because it doesn't cost that much. But to make sure you've got the essence of peaking in the language whatever it's going to be, and in the the cultural referencing is really important, because I don't forget it was also in the context

was very important Peaky between the wars. Sure, now you guys are going to be doing a movie, right the other ware negotiations? Yeah, okay, So again you're this independent and you've explained how that's worked in the TV world. Is it a different set of challenges in the film world, it's pretty much the same. It's pretty much the same.

It's a different set of rights and a different set of of protections, and it's all very but much about well, you know, Netflix's business models, so in the case of negotiating with Netflix, so it's an incredibly challenging time, but so what you know, it's a lot of fun. And since I'm an independent, there's just it's just another challenge and it's I really do like the buying community too. I think there's some really good operators in there. So, um,

I genuinely feel like optimistic about the build thing. Well, I'm curious about your optimism in a world where you know, the global economy is starting to look pretty dim and we could see content spending that is obviously astronomical right now start to pull back. Does any of that discourage you? It does? But where I am to a certain extent, you know, they still have tax credits, so whatever I spent I back. There's there are ways around that where

you don't get hurt. If you're an indie, you don't wake as much money, but you don't get hurt, whereas in corporation the whole thing, I mean, you know, Disney hasn't even announced its international straft g since they decided is streaming, they're they're they're far more confused than I am. I have a proposition. Do you want it? How much do you want to pay for it? Okay? And you know, Peaky was done pretty well in terms of the way

we spent I'm extremely proud of our production. Extremely We didn't spend the kind of money anywhere near the kind of money that you think we did considering its cinematic value. Like I said, we got a lot of We've got a lot of and love for every one of our directors love and every one of our actors loved. So you can you can dine out a lot on if you have the right kind of product. You want cultural It doesn't have to cost that much. You just want

cultural impact. So we're we're talking at a time where Peaky is at its peak, and so I'm curious what that means for you in terms of, you know, do you have other shows set up out there that maybe have nothing to do with Peaky? What's coming next for you? Sure, We've got a ton of things in the pipeline, and it's it's an incredibly Like I said to me, it's a great time to be an indie. You can call your own shots. And I feel like we don't need

to prove anything. We're great at producing. That's what we do. That's all we do. I don't have another job. I'm not an actor, you know. I don't have another job, not a director. I'm I'm a long term producer, and I know what it means. And I so respect people in the community, whether they're in the movie business or the television business, that have taken the road I've taken

because it's pretty nutty. It's like alchemy. It's weird. But when you say it's a great time to be an indie, I would imagine some people would really scratch their heads and say, in this consolidated world, how could that be true? Because you need a hit, and hits are going to come not just from within walled gardens of giants. Correct. You gotta you know, we developed to a certain extent. Uh, you gotta get lucky. Like I said, You've got to

know it when you see it. But nobody is throwing anything up against the wall and hoping that it sticks. You know, Everything that we do is really thought out with the buyer in mind. Okay, And so speaking of buyers do you have You have different irons in the fire now, But is there any one project you could talk about that's farthest along and development? That's I never talked about development never really ever, I've never talked about it.

It's not on any because it's well, it's sort of bad. Luckily, I think I just don't. I just don't like talking about what's the point then you have to list the twenty things you didn't succeed in, so I can respect that. But you are saying you're doing well. There's plenty of other things that you're developing. You're just not thoughts about it correct And I'm curious do you at this point, given Peaky on your resume and so so much more?

You know, why not do you have like, uh, like a the ability to command a Shonda Rhymes Ryan Murphy type deal at a streamer? Why why not do one of those? I suppose I could it, but that's not that's not fun. You know, I'm only as good. You know that, Scott Galloway says, you know, successes in the agency of others. I'm only as good as the people that I work with. I'm here in the country, you know,

having every day I talked to a writer. That's all I do pretty much, just writer, writer, writer, right, So I'm good at that. I'm really good at that. So I know what I'm good at, and I don't want to have to put myself in any other position where someone else tells me that they wanted or they don't want it. It's not fun. This is fun, you know,

really fun, especially since I started in the theater. That's why I'm here as I have a theater background in England and it's an incredibly exciting time to be, uh, someone who's you know, able to do what she wants. Well, you know, the Shonda Rhymes way is one type of pay day. Another thing that we're seeing right now is production companies attracting all sorts of investment, you know, the private equity world rolls up. Is that a place we

could see you strike it rich? Yeah? Sure, as long as I'm extant, as long as there's there's a version of CMP in there that is allowed to operate, wouldn't that be wonderful? So that's what everyone all independence hope for obviously, So it was just you're actively out there trying to make that kind of deal. No, but I'm I'm happy if anyone. If my phone rang, I'd be really happy to answer it. Well, I think as long as you continue to crank out hits like Peaky, the

phone will thank you. Ringing, Thank you, Karen, Thank you so much for taking the time out today to talk to me. It's my pleasure. Come and visit, will do. Thanks? Okay, bye, bye bye. This has been another episode of Strictly Business. Tune in next week for another helping of scintillating conversation with media movers and shakers, and please make sure you subscribe to the podcast to hear future episodes. Also leave a review in Apple Podcast and let us know how we're doing. M