M Welcome to Strictly Business Varieties weekly podcast featuring conversations with industry leaders about the business of entertainment. I'm Cynthia Littleton, Managing editor of Television for Variety Today. My guest in Los Angeles is Gigi Pritzker. Pritzker is CEO of Madison Wells Media. She's a veteran producer and film financier who has expanded her company significantly in the past few years.
Madison Wells Media, named for the street corner in Chicago where her grandfather once sold newspapers, now encompasses television production, VR, live experiences and more. In our interview, she talks about how she's been able to grow an independent production outfit in a marketplace dominated by media giants. G g. Pritsker, thank you so much for stopping by to talk with us. Thank you. Um. You run MWM, which is a very versified media company. You have a lot of a lot
of operations, a lot of fingers and a lot of pies. Um. I want to talk about the I want to talk about some of the cutting edge things that you guys are involved with in terms of VR and you know, immersive entertainment experiences. But I thought we'd talk. I know you're kind of your roots are in the film business, putting together, helping to finance, helping you know, arranged distribution for films. The perception in the industry right now is
that the film business is generally challenged. That that that that you have the blockbusters, you have Black Panther, and you have everything else. In your experience as somebody who's who's been in the business for a long time and has worked in this area, how do you see the state of getting a movie made these days? Well, having always been kind of an outsider um and not in the system, it's always been challenging. So challenge is nothing
new for independent filmmakers. UM. I think now there are different lenges UM the UM, the advent or the you know, building up of s VAUD and other streaming platforms. You can look at it as a negative or as a challenge. I kind of view it as a positive and as an opportunity. The reality is we at MWM look at creators and story as the main focus of what we do. We're oriented around storytelling and so some stories lend themselves to a theatrical release and some don't, and some make
more sense for streaming and some don't. So for us, we just see expanded opportunity to tell stories, uh, in a variety of ways. But as as the specific of the question, Um, with respect to independent film, I think you have to be more nimble now. I think you have to be UM focused in how you develop and what stories you're developing and with what creators you are developing them. And so yes, it's challenged, but it's never
not been challenged. And there are certain arenas that are more challenging than other there's certain budget ranges that are more challenging than others. Um, But that's okay, that's what we're in. That's the business wherein as challenge and difficulty, right, it wouldn't it wouldn't be as dynamic a market or as sexy a business if it was, if anybody could just go in and you know, come up with the formula and have a you know, have a hit, have
a hit movie. Yeah, it was never easy, Like, okay, there's no over the twenty five years I've been doing this, thirty years I've been doing this, there wasn't a period when I can go, oh, well it was easy. Then how would you say in terms of your In terms of the business model for your company, you provide some financing for films and then bringing other investors or do you typically a fully financed all p and A for for the projects that you get behind. We don't findance
pna UM. We develop. We UM finance our own development, so we have development UM in house. We also co produce and co develop and co um uh all sorts of things. We love collaborating, so for us, there isn't any one way in which we work in film and TV. So material comes in, material gets developed internally, that then becomes something that we package. We then may take on
a co financier, we may not UM. It really just depends on the project and when we UM get into the distribution pipeline on a particular piece also dictates what the financing scenario looks like, so it happens in a variety of ways. UM. We also have foreign distribution capabilities, so we're pretty nimble around financing, understand the landscape really well and can be helpful UM to filmmakers on that front.
In terms of foreign distribution, do you have your own sales entity or do you work with others that have feet on the ground in various markets. So we used to have I built my own UM foreign sales operation when we were odd Lot Um and it was odd Lot International, which we then merged UM with Sierra Affinity. So over the years it has changed and morphed kind of the That's the story of everything I've done. Uh,
it evolves and changes as the business changes. UM. And then a few years ago we found that we were doing lots of things through the studios and those were worldwide rights, so it wasn't quite the same as split right steals. So we currently work with lots of different foreign sales agencies and studios and all kinds of different
ways of putting it together. And how has you know, Netflix and Amazon in particular have come in and our big forces now in the film business, especially that kind of the traditional kind of mid range budget not not the blockbuster and not the micro budget. Um. They're coming in and filling you know, filling that that market very well.
But I know that their economics of what they need in terms of the rights can be very challenging for somebody for an independent producer that is trying to you know, that is trying to recoup costs. And then some how are you dealing with the introduction of streaming services with different models than even than even the studios that you know are famous for wanting all rights that they can get their hands on. Well, I think that's exactly why about three years ago, I re oriented the way in
which I'm in the industry UM. Whereas before odd Lot was really truly independent film production UM, and I had
a theater company that was separate from that. It occurred to me about three years ago, as all of this was changing and Netflix was growing in Amazon was coming into the space that really what you needed to do was orient yourself around story and whatever way in which that story gets executed, whether it's film and the film, whether it's theatrically distributed or on a streaming platform, whether it's TV, whether it's immersive, all of those UM opportunities
to express story are available under one roof with us now at Madison Wells Media, and so I think UM, for me, that's provided us an opportunity to be more nimble and to respond to what the market forces are and how things are changing within distribution landscapes. UM. So we're not really dependent solely on just our film business or just another business, you know, the live business. We really are UM a group UH that can express story
in a lot of different ways. I think a perfect example for us is Genius, which is the series we have with Fox twenty one at Gianna Imagine. Originally that was the Einstein UM property, which was ours, and we tried for a number of years to figure out how to tell the Einstein story as a film. And as we were failing to do that properly UM and not
meeting our own expectations, um TV started to change. Streaming came on and it became really clear to me that actually Einstein's life was too big for a two hour structure, and so it was like, wait a minute, let's reorient this and think about it in limited series. And once we were able to do that and rethink it and Imagine came on board, it became a much easier way to tell that story, and it became the series that is Genius, and we just finished season two with Picasso
and Emmy nominated both years in a row. Congratulation. Thank you so so, that to me is a perfect example of how we didn't want to be um UH standing
behind technology or changes in the industry. We wanted to be able to be nimble enough so we wouldn't get kneecapped by that and be able to pivot when you need to pivot in terms of in terms of the way your company works, is it important do you have to have significant ownership or equity in a property to make it work for you, because I know in television it's always been, even more so than film, there has
been almost a resistance to outside money. It's been, you know, especially as the companies have gotten bigger and the conglomerates more vertically integrated. There's been a sense of no, we want your development, but we don't want your money. We want to own all all worldwide rights, right, And I
think sometimes that is changing. So there there are bits and pieces in the in the TV world that are starting to actually mimic the film and independent finance world, where you can put you know, foreign rights together to build a project that way. But the reality is um whether it's um having a huge amount of the equity or a piece of the equity, or fully financing or partially financing or film or television. For us, what's important is actually the package of rights that we have and
the ability to take this material across different platforms. That to us is what's very important UM. And the financing structure and the equity structure can be you know, kind of a mixed portfolio. Frankly, depending on the project. It sounds like a lot to juggle though, you know, just in terms of keeping it all keeping it all straight,
it is. It is a lot to juggle, but it's it's a it's a ton of fun and I think it's um for the group of us that are they're doing it, it's really um a completely collaborative by design structure. Uh so that are legal and finance and you know, the the business side or the operations side is very
much embedded within the creative side as well. Everybody's working to solve the issues of how do we get the best creators, get the best storytellers be able to express what we want to express in the most effective way for us financially as well as creatively. There's you know, like I'm harping on this on the streaming services, but they are such a big force. Um. You know, there there are some pretty astounding UM pay days happening now for talent, for talent that isn't demand it you know,
it's it isn't. It's an incredible time for talent that doesn't demand. It's also very challenging time for people to work within budgets and in parameters because expectations are now being set so high with you know, nine figure deals being written by Netflix. Is that a challenge for you at the development phase to attract to attract talent to us, you know, an independent company at a time when you know, when the largest companies are are chasing after big stars
with big checks. You know, look, I think it's always hard and there's always challenges. But for us, we have found is UM talent at that level knows where they can go and get a big paycheck. To your point, but what we're building is a platform where people can come and actually build wealth and ownership and that's different UM and we're seeing that a lot of the talent that is coming and working with us and the creators that were orienting around appreciate that UM and so yeah,
you can go there and get a big payday. There are limits to the upside, there are limits to the ownership UM and so ultimately sometimes that's great and that's all you want, and sometimes you want to own it and you want to be able to own all the rights along with us and really express it over years. UM, that's a different model. That's a different world. That's where we are. M It is a it is a fast changing marketplace out there. UM. Let's talk about some of
your other the other divisions and other activities. I know you've been putting a lot of resources into VR right now. What do you think. I think VR is still a little bit of a nebulous market for a lot of people, including me, who doesn't who I've tried those I've tried the goggles. Oh boy, I just you know, I I get dizzy so fast. It's it's amazing. But it's a hard it's just hard for my old tired brain to
take in all. What do you think do you see it becoming a more mainstream, more you know, UM, more readily accessible type of entertainment experience for people? Yeah? I think that for us. UM, the way we are engaged with VR and a R and just immersive content in general is UM that we want to be in the space. We want to get a better understanding of what it's like to be makers in the space. UM, But nobody knows where it's evolving or what the market is or
when the market will catch up. So we're very disciplined and very careful UM to not get over our skis on it, if you will. So UM we're engaged in a variety of areas. I think what we're seeing is that a lot of the UM best use for this is in location based entertainment. There is really a burgeoning market UM for location based entertainment that is immersive and VR oriented UM. So we've got a number of projects
UM in that space. We've got something with John Favreau called Nomes and Goblins that we did a short We released body little over a year ago, a short piece, and then we're now building that out UM. And the approach for something like that is both location based and then home install UM. And there's Sony PlayStation in other places where people are gravitating towards that content in that manner.
But I think the location based aspect of it is really an interesting one, and it's interesting for us because it's the confluence of UM the technology that VR and a R has, but it's also got aspects of live theater, which we're also involved in. So we have a project that UM actually merges those two and is immersive theater
UM and that certainly will be location based UM. So our immersive group is doing a lot of different kinds of work in different areas, some with established creators who want to work in this medium, some with new talent who are native to VR UM and so for us, it's really about again the very mixed portfolio, not being tied to one strategy that you go along on and then find out that the market shifted and whoops, you
picked the wrong one. So I would say we're being very diligent, very careful, and trying to build relationships with the makers in that space. Uh. And the the ability to be innovative and really creative truly in it is is what's so much fun. It sounds like a big investment to be into that, into the actual technology to be able to to craft VR experiences or VR films. Yeah, I mean we are not, uh again like our overall platform,
We're We're agnostic. So whether it's a you know, a vibe or a Hollo lens or whatever the technology is that we want to use to UM either port to or create the content in, we aren't owners of that. We aren't investing in that we are really content creators. That's what we are across all of the things that we do. And so that's a different mindset and a different um uh investment strategy. UM. And so for us, really it is content creation across the platform and including
in VR and a R and immersive. Are you finding that creative talent like the Jon Favreau's are coming to you with I've got this great idea that I envisioning, you know, envision of br component to this movie or I envision of a full on VR entertainment experience. Are people coming in the door now with pitches like that, Yes, very much so. And UM there are also UM opportunities that we have with i P that comes to us
through one portal. We want to make a film, we're doing this thing, we have this i P and then we have the ability to say, okay, well let's think about it in a different medium as well. UM. So for example, we have a show in our live group UM which does a lot of i P driven musicals UM, a show called Red Roses, Green Gold UM. It is the catalog of Jerry Garcia UM and Robert Hunter expressed in a musical UM with a story that doesn't relate to them, but using that music, which is the music
of The Grateful Dead. That show was done off Broadway. Uh last year UM in New York and our immersive group worked with our theater group, our live group to create a music video that was in VR that we then took UM to south By Southwest and Yeah, exactly it was The Grateful Dead and VR how perfect long guitar jams. Uh. So it was great. It was a wonderful way for those groups to work together collaboratively. It was an interesting way to express that piece of theater
in another medium. UM, and the fans of the show really appreciated the opportunity to see that music video in that format. So we're really bringing things very much across the different pieces within the groups that are that are assembled around Madison Welles Media. Is there a is there a a business model for VR at this point or is it still very experimental? Yeah, it's very experimental, which is why you have to be very UM. I think you have to be diligent, you have to be disciplined,
but you have to be willing to take some risk. UM. It's certainly not without risk, no doubt about it. UM. But you know that to me, that's independent filmmaking from the beginning, right you you you need to think about what's your ultimate goal and how are you going to monetize this? But you have to be creative, so you have to take some risk um, but you try to mitigate the risk in any way you can. So it's always that balance between you know, creative risk, innovation, a market.
Where is the market, what are the opportunities? And for us having put this together Madison Wells Media, the entire purpose is that this is a group of people oriented around being nimble, um, being able to take calculated risk um. And so that's you know, immersive is is no different, But yeah it isn't It is an area whose market is not to find right now. Um. You you mentioned, you know, being willing and having to have an appetite
for risk. As you talk to other financiers and I'm sure deal with private equity and you know, investors, we hear that there's a lot of investors that want to put money into content. They see the you know, they see the booming global demand, they see the appetite of the big streaming services. Is that true? Is that a misperception in your experience right now in terms of, you know, the ability to attract other investors to to content ventures,
to individual films or film slates. The sense is that the kind of the slate business had really tapered off in the last couple of years. Well, you know, I don't I don't know if we were out there just looking for film finance, I don't know what the world looks like now. Um, certainly on an individual basis, there are a lot of people with a lot of money that want to invest in movies because it's always been and always will be fun and sexy and all those things.
Um we are um right now really I think an interesting and and and we have had incoming phone calls, Um, an interesting play for investors who are looking at a bigger content company that isn't just film based. But um, yes, we're finding there are people out there who are very interested because the world has changed so much and the
ability to create content. You know, it's interesting are our group is assembled around not just financing, but actually being able to make the thing, whether it is the musical or the film or the TV show. So the ability to have both those sides the making of as well as the financing and in some cases the direct distribution of those things. Um is very attractive and is unique. Yeah, it is very you know, it's rare that you have all of those elements on in an independent outfit under
one roof. Yes, But I think it speaks also to your longevity. How long I know, prior to m w M, you were odd Lot Entertainment And remind me how long? How long when did you start first start odd Lot and in the in the business. Um, so odd Lot itself UM started around is somewhere in that vicinity. Um, but I've been you know, making film and um even before that, making music videos and filmed content and music videos,
corporate films. You know, in the eighties, that was kind of the thing everybody in New York City, which is where I was building a small production company. You made whatever anybody needed you to make, mostly in video back then, so before everybody could make video on their iPhones exactly. So I mean I did literally hundreds of you know, this is the castor on the chair that this company makes,
and we need a video to sell those casters. So we did hundreds of corporate films, which was great training because like try and tell the story of the most boring piece of equipment ever known to man. Interesting exactly, So it was it was really it was good training. And what was it that made you go into the film business or into the production entertainment business in the first place? Were you somebody who just grew up loving
films and TV? You know? It's funny, Um, I feel like I didn't know going forward where it was all heading. And at some point you turn around at a certain age and you go, oh, that did all make sense. But I didn't really realize that going forward. So oddly, No, I didn't think I was going to always end up in the film business. But I lived in Nepal during college and did a thesis on cultural transmission through folk tales. So somewhere in their stories have always apparently been important
to me. Um. And it was a meandering path that frankly got me here. Um. Because I didn't grow up in this industry. I don't have relatives that we're in this industry. Um. So I kind of came here very much as an outsider and started in New York. Wow. That's quite a that that's quite a rise. Good good for you in in start in obviously starting out as
a filmmaker, but but blossoming into a business leader. UM, I have to ask you did you find along the way, especially when you were starting, did you did you experience sexism? Did you was it did you feel like people it was hard for people to take you seriously or to get a meeting because because you were g G and not George. Yeah, you know it's funny. Um. I am sure that that happened, no doubt. UM. But I am stubborn enough and focused enough, and grew up in a
family that was very male. So I don't think I ever put it in that frame or thought about it that way. It's hard. What we do is hard, and so I just knew it was hard, and so I know I didn't get meetings and I wasn't in rooms I probably should have been in. I never attributed it to my being a female per se um, and I just figured it. Man, I had to push harder and work harder. But I am sure looking back, Yeah, there are jobs I didn't get. There are things I wasn't
privy to. There were rooms I wasn't in. Um. And now being in the position I am, and being a female and being the age I am, Um, it's it's great because I had the opportunity to help other people, whether they're women or not, UM to really bring them into rooms where they should be and be able to have their stories told and be able to participate. And
that feels great. That's a you know, certainly something that that I think there's more awareness and recognition of the need for that than ever before or and you know, to your point, there's there have been a lot of i think smaller entities and people, you know, efforts by individuals to to open those doors. And it seems like now there's that that awareness is so great that it you know that it may that it may start to change. Um. My last question before I let you go, what would
you say? You know, even it's interesting you have, you know, you have quite a bit of quite a bit of material and quite a bit of work going on. What would you say do you think is the most untapped or the richest opportunity in the entertainment business right now? Mhm wow, that's an interesting question and there's so many different ways to go with that. One of them if yeah, Um, I think for us what's really exciting is um we
are are because we're in so many different areas. The thing that's really fun that we're finding really enjoyable as a group and I and enjoying the challenge, UM is to uh find stories I P. Things that we can really grab ahold of and express in a variety of ways. Whether it's through our universe division, which is world building UM, not film first strategy, so expressing as podcasts or graphic
novels are a number of different ways. So to me, it's the being able to tell stories in a variety of ways and build that franchise and build that I P up from the ground yourself. UM. We are working with an artist from Chicago named Hebrew Brantley hebrews awesome, and we're really working with him on some characters that he has to build that world and then to be able to express those characters in a variety of ways.
That's a ton of fun and potentially enormously lucrative to build your own franchise that you can take across your own system UM and distry reviewed. So that I think is an interesting opportunity and and interesting challenge to build those kinds of franchises being independent and working with the
creators to own it together. When you think about you know, if you put your mind back to your New York days making making industrial films about castors on chairs, and you look at the media world today and then just so many avenues for storytelling and platforms. It's got to be It's just it's got to be such a night and day uh marketplace now in terms of just in terms of how much things have grown and expanded. Yeah, you know, it's funny. Um. So I'm from Chicago and
I live in Chicago. Really even though my company is based in l A and everybody's here. Um, and because I grew up as a film focused filmmaker person, people will still say to me, so, you know, what's your next film? What do you work on? And it's so singular and the reality is now it's gotten so not as to us everybody. There's so many ways to work on so many different things. So it's really not what's the one thing, it's what are the many? Um, And
that's that's kind of exciting. I'm enjoying this moment very much. Great. Well, we will stay tuned and we're gonna look for those location based VR installations. I'm so curious as to see who's going to crack that code, it'll be you know, it's it's. It's one of the new horizons to just to really watch out for. It sounds like you're really in it. It's being cracked as we speak. Thank you
so much, gg, thank you sing thanks for listening. Be sure to tune in next week for another episode of Strictly Business.