Former WWE Insider Sees Life After Vince McMahon

in and outside the ring, completely scripted. Hey, I never said it was a genius. Today I'm going to talk to Brian Gowartz, one of the people who did that script thing and wrote about his experience in his new book. He also has a new documentary series about wrestling's early days on Vice TV. We'll be back with Brian in just a minute. And we're back with Brian, author of

the new book There's just One Problem. True Tales from the former one time seventh most powerful person in w w E. Thanks for coming on, Brian, Andrew, thank you, thanks for having me. So I suppose we should start with an explanation of what it even means to script something like wrestling, because I think that's a little subject to interpretation. Are you suggesting each in every move? Are you suggesting each and every word? I would imagine there's

a lot of improvisation. Yeah, there's many different facets you know, to writing wrestling, and the writers themselves, um, don't have the qualifications to write, you know, the moves per se. Um. The wrestlers largely themselves are the ones who who put

the matches together. They work with former wrestlers called producers. Um. When it comes to the television shows and some of the live events, what we do is writers, well we would um you know, write the storylines that lead up to the matches and propose what the matches are, and propose who as they stay in wrestling, goes over in the match, which is to win or to lose? Um. And then you know that there are separate people who actually you know, construct what is going to happen within

the ropes. You know, well, will make a suggestion as far as like when this person will interfere and it will lead to something next week. UM. But that's you know the extent of the in ring action where dangerously unqualified you know to uh to actually suggest what happens physically, especially because the wrestlers themselves, it's like, yes, it's predetermined and it's scripted, um, but the actual you know, there's major physicality that's involved and injuries that occur, uh and

everything else. So that it's it's really important to have people who know they're doing, you know, putting that stuff together. But the actual storylines and you know, the the in ring promos as that we're in terms of like what the wrestlers are saying to each other, that's very collaborative

as well. But that's where the writers really you know, have much more involvement in terms of what that is and working with the wrestlers and working with you know, and during my tenure Vince McMahon as it would be now Triple H Paul evac um in terms of what gets approved and everything else. Um. So there's yeah, there's there's backstage stuff. There's stuff that takes place outside of the arena, um, you know, right, So there's there's lots of different aspects to it. Um. You know, so that

I really even realized. We'll get to Vincent in just a minute, because I'm certainly interested in hearing your opinion on where this league is at today. It's certainly an interesting time. But still want to know some more about the creative process here. What goes into being a great creative in the wrestling world. Would imagine it's not necessarily the same thing as writing for a sitcom or a

talk show. And you've done that kind of stuff as well. Yeah, I mean I always you know, my my uncle, Howard gowertz Um was a longtime successful show runner and executive producer. He wrote on shows like Taxi and Wings and Larry Sanders. Um, and it's what I wanted to do, you know, ever since I saw you know his name in the credits watching Taxi as a kid. Um. So I you know, I was fortunate enough to to have written on a few sitcoms prior to w w E and w w E. Yeah,

it's a completely different animal. There's some similarities. Um, it's actually evolved to have more similarities. When I first started, and there was not many similarities because it was very run and gun. We'd be writing Tuesday morning, we'd be writing the show that would take place Tuesday afternoon. Um,

from scratch. Now it's much more prepared ahead of time, but nothing like the sitcom world, you know, like I'm I'm here in Memphis season three of Young Rock, And you know, these like like any other single cam sitcom, you know, the scripts are written, that rewritten, their several drafts.

There's meetings with NBC getting and Universal getting notes and everything, um, and you're shooting individual scenes over the course of the week, whereas in w W E, you know, you're preparing during the week, but basically the show goes on because it's eight o'clock on Monday, not necessarily because it's ready or completely you know, prepared, but you gotta do it because you're on live television three hours and there's a lot of you know, scrambling day of It's it's very it's

it's friends. It's it's frantic, but it's also the word friends. It's it's very uh, it's it's very like adrenaline fueled. You know. There's there's just a special magic, especially for the performers, because they have the added bonus that that really no one else in scripted television does of performing not for a studio audience of a few hundred, but of several thousand um and on pay per views that

could exceed over fifty thousand. Sometimes people who will and we're not necessarily, like you know, conditioned to like it, just because they're there that they don't like it, they'll let you know, um. And you know it's it's just very very um exciting. And when you're feeding off of that um, it kind of fuels you to the next show you wanna, you want to top yourself. Yeah, you really capture that vibe in your book, which was such

a fun read. And you know, the funny thing is the thing that I was struck by reading your book was I could have been you. What I mean that I too was a small Jewish kid growing up on Long Island who grew up loving what was then known as the WWF and it's eighties heyday from the first Wrestlmania to Saturday Night main event. And I know you sort of came up following it as well. I mean,

I don't know about you. I have this like Pavlovian response to hearing the opening notes of remember that song Obsession by an Emotion, which which was what kicked off Saturday and I made event I hear those opening notes, that my adrenaline shoots out of my body because I remembered that was the feeling I felt when I was about to watch like the most amazing wrestling extravaganza and so funny. By the way, it's sorry interrupt Yeah, the

fact that you said that. So at one point in the mid two thousand's, Saturdaynite's main event came back, um or made like there was some version of it that came back, and I was so animate about using that song, the obsession song by an Emotion um And of course, you know, this was mid two thousand's. They didn't want to seem you know, the idea of it being retro was, you know, being a step back and this is who we are now, and let's have some new metal two

thousand six song as the whatever it was. But I ve and went so far as to like, please just just prepare and opening, let's just show Vince what it would look like. Uh, And of course I think it was. Here comes the Boom was the name of the song that they used, and it was edited exactly to the you know this physicality on the booms. And then when the Animotion version, they just put the song over what

they had already edited, so nothing SYNCD up. It looked completely I feel like I'm being sandbag, but I still appreciate the fact that you know that you love that song because I think it's in the whole generation. It really does speak to I respect the effort that you made. That's that's tremendous. You mentioned Vince we gotta go there obviously quite the scandal that we've heard about in recent months, which has led to his resignation as the chairman and CEO.

What is your because you worked with this guy, you know him? Well, I'm not, you know, I'm sure you can't say you know what you saw if there was anything on, you know, in terms of observing what was going on. The scandal, I think that sort of happened after your time. But can this league function without someone so central to what this sport is? Uh? Yeah, I mean I think the short answer is yes, and and

they're proving it right now. Um. You know, Vince was the he was you know where the buck stopped um at w W E. But he also, you know, spouse state philosophy of no one person is bigger than the company. Um, and that was certainly the case, you know when talent left, uh so called Steve Austin retired when the Rock went

to Hollywood. Ultimately, when John Cena went to Hollywood. Um, there's so many you know, great great wrestlers that were the focal point of the show that ultimately stopped wrestling. And the company went on and it went through peaks and valleys, but it still was on the air every

single week. And from a company in a business standpoint, you know, I think Vince always employed the same philosophy that like, you know, when he groomed people Triple H, Paul avec included um, you know, and his daughter Stephanie McMahon, um, and several you know executives as well, to put it in and be in a position to succeed. You know. My whole reason for being at w w E came about because the two writers that were there at the

time before I started. Um, they you know through and they have their reasons and everything, but they left the company w w E to go to the rival w CW, and that left w w WE with zero writers. Um, and that's one of the main reasons why I was hired. Um, they needed someone, and they needed someone right now. But Vince you know, learned from that. He's like, I'm never gonna put myself in a position where like I am all of a sudden without a writing staff because one

or two people decided to leave. Um And I think that just general philosophy permeates. So now you have people being put in a position um to you know, essentially prove their worth when its too all these you know, talent relations, creative writing, live events, all these aspects of the company that ran through Vince. But he had people you know, in in place there. Um And I think you know, Paula Veck and Stephanie McMahon um and Nick

con as well. I mean Paul and Stephanie obviously went through the rigors of w w E and that culture. It's embedded in their lives. They've been in the company. You know, Triple H started wrestling, I believe, um and and has always been. He didn't just all of a sudden graduate two behind the scenes role after you know, Vince stepped down. You know, he had been an executive in the company, you know, for years before that. Even as a wrestler. He was always in the production meetings

at television. Um, you know, sitting in the front row, observing, learning, you know, absorbing everything. Stephanie too was you know, Vince didn't put her in a position of power immediately. She interned essentially at the New York sales office. At the beginning of her tenure, she followed and tracked Vince backstage before she took any sort of position. UM. So I think they're well versed and and Nick con of course is you know someone who's well raging from C A

A who now runs the business there. Yeah, and on that business side as WWS evolving and needs someone just like him who knows these fields so well. And it's not in a wrestling bubble as we call it. Um. You know, I think that that triumphant um. I'm saying a lot of words today that I'm not I hope these are actual words that they are. UM. I think they've been put in a position where it's not like Vince is gone and all of a sudden, it's the scene from airplanes. Anyone had to fly a plane and

there's just mass pine waving their arms and screaming. It's like they're there put in a position, um to now show their worth. And I think know, if there's any indication of the past month or two, you know, they're doing just that. I wonder though, and I think there's been a lot of speculation that has propped up the stock that the company may finally get sold. Uh could you imagine that happening? Um? Look, anything is is possible,

you know. UM. And I think you know, I wouldn't know exactly, but I would say when w w E Network first started, UM, I had always you know, thought like, Okay, this is going to be something that w w E strongly feels is going to be its own streaming service. And I can't imagine if this existing in any form um. And it's you know, no one is going to know how to do this better than us and all of

that stuff and all their archival footage and everything else. Um. And then all of a sudden, now it's on Peacock and it's not its own streaming form anymore. And I was just like, huh, I did not see that coming. Um. And I think it's kind of like, you know, that's a good parallel because they're a business. Um, it's fiercely and with much pride, you know, a family owned business, even though it's a publicly traded company. But the McMahon's

obviously own the majority of the stock and everything. UM. But yeah, the Vince has always been you know, his philosophy, and it trickles on down is Um, there's more than one right way to do something, and you know, if

an opportunity comes along, they'll always do. It's funny because Triple h And and Stephanie McMahon as television characters, they got a lot of heat as authority authority figures by saying we're gonna do what's best for business, and on television that translated to putting the good guys, the baby faces and precarious positions. Um, but it's best for business. But now it actually is paralleling in real life. Um,

they'll do what's best for business. And whether that means one day selling the company, that could be, whether it means keeping the company forever and evolving. You know, with the times, I could easily see that too. We'll be back in just a moment with more with Brian Gwertz.

Stick around. We're back with Brian Gowertz, author of the new book There's Just One Problem, True tales from the former one time seventh most powerful person in the w w E. So, Brian, you have since left the w w E. You now work with seven Bucks Production, which happens to be Dwayne the Rock Johnson's production company. What was your relationship with him, like you talk about this in the book, when you were both in the same league, and how did it sort of graduate to this whole

new place. Yeah, we had um for two people who were certainly physically extraordinarily different. Um, you know, we we

were we kind of had the same UM. Well, we definitely did not have the same path to get the BW but there are similarities in the sense that we're essentially one year apart um, you know, age wise, so we kind of have that same um you know, gen x sensibilities in terms of hitting a sweet spot age when Star Wars and Indiana Jones and like all those things came out, uh and be having similar tastes and fans, you know, sense of humor, that kind of thing. UM to be able to relate as far as pop culture

and movies and sports as well. UM. You know, he famously UM And I didn't realize that at the time, but as a member of the Miami Hurricanes, he'd come to Syracuse where I went, UM and they beat our asses pretty good in football, and I remember booing what turned out to be him and all his teammates off the field has rated after a you know, decisive, heartbreaking victory. UM. But he always you know, his philosophy, wh's the same now as it was then, has always been show me

what you got I don't have. You know, there a lot of wrestlers who had these fair but you know, preconceived notions of like what can someone five eight from Long Island who doesn't look like they can crack an egg with a punch possibly tell me about how I as a wrestler, I'm supposed to either trash talk or or promote a match and sell tickets and that kind

of thing, um, which I get. But his philosophy is always like, yeah, what do you If you can help me, great, and if you can't help me, I'll still be fine. So let's see what you can do. And that's what kind of you know, and I write about in the book. I mean that's when I met him at MTV doing these specials. UM. He was impressed with what I had written. He's like, wow, you really captured my voice well in

these promos. Um, have you ever considered working for w w E, which I hadn't um, And And that led to me eventually getting hired. UM. And we always work together on stuff at w w E. It was always kind of like, let's bounce ideas off each other. Um. And it was very very carefully craft did it wouldn't be you know, he his philosophy wasn't like, yeah, I'll just go out and I'll do my stick and then

we'll go to the back. It's like, how can we creatively? Yes, there was a lot of catchphrases that people knew and stuff, but getting into it and and the stories that he was telling. Uh, he always had a very very you know, carefully crafted, fine eye towards what it was he was going to say and to who and how he was going to do it. Especially then when he turned Heel Bad Guy in two thousand three, and that's sort of like was a brand new character, even though it was

the same person. UM. And that extended to television, you know. I he took me along the ride. He hosted m the World Stunt Awards, the Tourist Stunt Awards, which was an award show for stuntmen and women on the Paramount Lot two years or in a row, early early early this was probably like two thousand four two thousand five or something like that, and he was like, yeah, come on board, I'll get you hired as a writer. Let's do it. Um. And we always kept in touch even

when he was doing his movies. UM. And when it was time for him and Danny Garcia's business partner ex wife business partner to start their own production company, uh seven Bucks, he was like, yeah, hey, listen, we'd love to have you if you want to come. And I was, you know, fifteen years in w W E like, yeah, I was ready transition. While it's like, you know, I'm still in my forties. There's still a lot of you know, work to be done and experiences to have. So let's

do it. That's great, And you know you've gone on to do things like you know, the Young Rock sitcom which is returning to NBC. And what I mean is basically anything that the Rock does out of seven Bucks, you've got your fingerprints in it. Is that how it works well on the television side, um, because we obviously we have television, there's movies, there's you know, all the business, um, you know expenditures. He's again, I'm saying words that I

feel I'm trying. I can confer where they were Riety podcast, Um, you know, but between Terramana and you know, his tequila company and under Armour project Rock Zoe, there's there's there's all these you know business ventures, um that all of us you know, within seven Bucks are always involved in, whether it's you know, writing, you know copy for um, you know, a campaign and ad campaign or at least contributing to it. On the movie side, you know, I'm not on set on any of the movies and listen,

just visiting to say hi. But we all have you know, meetings where we're discussing what projects we're all working on. We'll all be able to read the scripts and give feedback. On the television side though, you know, that's a you know, that's that's more obviously my my lane and everything that you know we do on the television side, I'm involved with.

But also it's certainly not a one person operation. You know, we have other members of the team on the TV side, other executives, and obviously we are in touch with Dwayne to get his feedback opinion. He is not a movie star with a production company, hands off producer. You know, anything that comes out of seven Bucks is going to be associated with him, So he wants to know what it is and and obviously wants to have some sort of connectivity to it, um, which we always try to do,

even if it's on a surface level. You know, you wouldn't associate with the rock, but you know, there there's always a way in terms of like you know, he watches documentaries all the time, uh, you know, in his two seconds of free time that he has. So we're developing, you know, a docuseries right now, um that hopefully will be you know and be able to be announced soon. Um. He minored in criminology at University of Miami. You know, that opens up a whole, you know, another level of projects,

dramas unscripted that we can do. But any but anything that even if just a member of the team, even if it's not Dwayne himself, has a passion for He encourages us to pursue it, and you know, want to see it through because if you don't have you know, if you're just gonna like stamp your name on something and you know that's and then hopefully it gets sells.

I mean that's that's that's fine maybe to a certain extent, but it really doesn't work on the seven buck side, because you really need to have somebody on the team have a strong passion and connectivity to any project for

it to really you know shine. Well, one of the projects you guys have worked on is this new Vice TV docuseries that starts today the day that this podcast comes out, called Tales from the Territories, which goes deep on what wrestling was like in the seventies and eighties of very different business than um, you know, it's funny.

I also sort of related to my own experience. I grew up in the eighties just watching WWF and then I remember transitioning at some point to seeing magazines about the wrestling world and lo and behold, discovering there's all these other leagues out there like n w A and u WF, and the wrestling there was so much gorri er with like barbed wire matches and buckets of blood. Like I assume that's the kind of stuff this documentary gets into the wild wooly early days. Well yeah, we

we really it's funny. We we have the same exact you know, fan experience as as kids, you know, as I grew up in the eighties as well, and I remember the Pro Wrestling illustrated magazines and seeing you know, all these other all these other companies and territories essentially um and I remember seeing this picture of this wild, blonde haired, long haired guy drinking Jack Daniels and bleeding and thinking, oh my god, look at that that person. It's like a maniac. And that was Michael ps He.

So I ended up working with the w w EE for a decade and a half. Um. You know, it is kind of funny how it came around, but yeah, the were you know, Vince McMahon, you know, kind of nationalized um wrestling, you know, with with Cable and WrestleMania and you know, in turner to an extent to with

w CW. But before that, you know, the wrestling world was was essentially territorial, like every region in America and outside of America too, in Canada, Mexico, they all had their own territories and wrestlers would come and go out of the territories, um, and it would you know, they'd have local TV and it would be a really huge deal. Um, you know, whether it was in Memphis, whether it was in Texas with World Class up in Portland, Calgary and

Stampede mid Atlantic. There there's so many different territories and stories. And this was during a time when you know, fans we're not as you know, tuned into the backstage workings of the business. You know, they treated it as real, um and much real lawyer than you know fans you know, view the product today. So there's a lot of passion and there was a lot of wrestlers, bad guys getting

attacked by fans. And you know, you if you were a good guy and you or even if you were a bad guy and you were in a bar and you lost a fight to a quote unquote regular person, you'd be in big trouble because that's you know that you're you're essentially the illusion is being shattered. Um. So there are these and obviously two on Dwayne side. His dad, Rocky Johnson wrestled in the territories, as did his grandfather

Hig Chief Peter my idea. So this is something you know, and he that's one of the reasons, it's it's one of the foundations of young Rock the reason why he lives in so many different towns and cities between Hawaii, between Memphis, between you know, in real life. Um, you know, he he's lived everywhere. He's lived in Texas, he's living in Connecticut, he's lived in New Zealand. You know, Um, it's because of the territories, because his dad is bouncing

around from territory to territory. So we were able to work with the vice and creators the Dark Side of the Ring they're successful wrestling show. Um, to to get the real life people who experienced them, who lived during these times and tell these stories and shoot recreations of these stories so you're seeing these stories come to life.

Um and and yeah, it was one of those things where like the dark side of the business has been you know well told, Uh, especially with Dark Side of the Ring being such a big success over advice, how can we you know, tell the story of these basically wild, crazy anything can happen, just needs to be seen to be believed type stories. And that was the you know, the foundation of tales from the territories that yeah, we're

super excited about, you know coming out. Um, you know today, what what was it like to get footage and and find sort of the historical record there because this this was far these territories were far from a polished product, was it was? There a lot of effort that went

into digging that all opera. Was it there for the taking? Yeah, I mean there's archival footage and there's stills and stuff like that, you know, But the the good thing is is that the story isn't really relying on footage footage because almost all of these stories m are what takes place outside of the ring um and whether it wouldn't

be footage anyway. So that's why we're shooting these recreations while you know, hearing from the people directly involved or at least one step removed from the people directly involved, whether there was a story told to them or whether

it was something that they lived themselves. So we could supplement that with footage of um the people the principles, But in terms of the actual stories of what went what went down, that's something that we just shoot ourselves and are able to kind of seamlessly insert it as these legends are are telling their first person accounts and

what led show up in this stock. So there's like, you know, it was so much fun, you know, and that's part of my job as a producer, was reaching out um to Breath the hit Man Heart, reaching out to Jerry the King Lawler, reaching out to Jimmy Mouth and the South Heart, Jeff Jarrett, Jerry Jarrett, his father, um and and you know between my relationships and Evan Huntsey and Jason Eisner Dark Side of the Ring, you know, to be able to have Kevin von Erik, to be

able to have Dr d David Schultz and a lot of people who haven't really spoken a ton on you know, these subjects. I'm Duel of the Butcher is on our show. I remember that guy. Yeah, that's the guy that you'd read in the the old you know magazine. Oh my god, that a fork coming out of his head exactly. You know, it's it's so cool. It's so cool to you know, be able to see them in person. I was at a couple of the tapings, um and see them tell

their tales. Do you remember, by the way, from these magazines. I just had a memory. They would there was some company that would advertise you could create your own wrestler and make up moves, make up a wrestler, and you'd like hand in like I don't know, three dollars a month, and then they'd come back to you was like, oh yeah, you're wrestler. Beat that wrestler and it was this whole like three page print out of everything going on in the league. And I'm sure it was a total scam,

but I still loved it. I I remember advertisements like that. I never had the I was the sucker, did it? Uh? Yeah?

I mean and to this day, as you know, unfortunately, you know, when you grow up a wrestling fan, you you know hundreds of different performers, and it feels like nowadays so many of these guys, like every month goes by you here one of them dying, and it's like a little piece of your childhood being peeled away one by one, where there are people that you wanted in this doct that you didn't hear from just because as

they were no longer with us. Well you know, yeah, you know, it would be in a in a perfect world, you know. I mean. Summer of two thousand fifteen for me was very rough because you know, Dusty Rhodes the American Dream and Roddy piper Um two of my favorites. Roddy was my favorite as a kid. Dusty became my favorite when I had the opportunity to work with him backstage at w w E. Otherwise I had you know, like seen you know, as a as a w w

F fan growing up. Of course we saw the polka dot laden Dusty Rhodes, you know, when he was in w w E. But you know, it was a while other than the magazines actually for me at least other people had probably a different experience to see him in action. And he was so magnetic and such a force of nature. Truly, no one liked Dusty Rhodes the American Dream And you know, I got to work with two of his sons, Dustin

Rhodes gold Dust and Cody Rhodes. Um. And you know, but just being able to work with Dusty, Dusty would have had a field day on this show. Um, he would have been. He's such a great storyteller and such a great presence. Um. The same with Roddy, although Roddy you know, again two very very different people. But you know, again Roddy did he did one man show with all his stories and everything. Um. And yeah, I mean there's there's a lot of legends, um that would have been

great to have on. But there you know, there's still i think in some cases mentioned in some of these stories and being able to you know, take them and you know have their uh, the legacy you know continue. Um, it was very very cool. Well that's the beauty of the wrestling BIS. Lots of great stories and you tell plenty of them in your new book. There's just one problem. True tales from the former one time seventh most powerful person in w W W E. Brian, thank you for joining

me today, Andrew, thank you. This was This was a lot of fun. Um. I expanded my vocabulary somewhat, I think, uh, and it was well done out. Thank you. I'm very proud of myself. This has been another episode of Strictly Business. Tune in next week for another helping of scintillating conversation with media movers and shakers, and please make sure you subscribe to the podcast to hear future episodes. Also leave a review in Apple Podcasts and let us know how we're doing.