Debra Lee: What I Saw at the Cable Revolution

years at b ET. After years in the trenches making her mark as a leader and as one of only a few African American female CEOs in media, She's had some time to reflect on the changing content marketplace since her retirement in two thousand eighteen. In recent months, Lee has joined the board of A T and T and become CEO of Leading Women to Fined, an invitation only

conference series for women of color. In this wide ranging conversation, Lee speaks candidly about how cable missed the threat posed by streaming and the iportants of grooming and retaining executives from diverse backgrounds. Deboraly, former chairman and CEO of b ET Networks, who is now CEO of Leading Women Defined a conference series, Thank you so much for stopping by today to talk to us. Great, thank you, I'm excited

to be here. Here is Debor. You have more than thirty years of experience in the trenches at the ET networks, really growing up with the cable business, which just you know, just invaluable experience undoubtedly for these chaotic and disrupted times in media now. And you left b ET about a year ago, a little over a year ago. In that time since you've now had you have a little arms length on the business. What stands out to you as you think about where this industry is going? What? What

do you think? What do you see as the biggest challenges that the leaders of companies that you like come, like the Channel group that you used to run, What are the biggest challenges that they have to sort of sort out? Right now? There's a lot of a lot of things in the air. But I would be curious to your perspective as a former CEO media CEO, what is the what are the biggest hills to climb and say the next three or five years. That's a very

good question. Um, you know, what comes to mind immediately are two major challenges. Um. The first I would say is competition. There's just so much content out there. And I remember the early days of the cable industry where you know, cable systems that had twelve channels or twenty four channels, thought that that was a lot, and then we went to you know, a hundred channels and two

under channels. Now we have you know, not only infinite cable channels, but also streaming services and um, all kinds of different platforms that take up a lot of time time for our viewers and consumers. UM. So I think the biggest challenges how do you break through all of that? How do you keep your audience? You know? Is it

about a brand? Is about building a brand? Which you know, I spent a lot of time uh thinking about it, b et because we had a very loyal audience, um and so you know, we were able to keep that audience because of our brand. UM. But you know, is it just popular shows? You know, when when a network starts selling to Netflix, they lose the brand of the network and then it's just all about shows. Their shows can be found elsewhere, which makes it by definition, not

exclusive to the network that originally. Yeah, so that opens up more opportunities for sales of content, but it also you know, leaves the consumers a little confused about what who produced this show or what am I tied to this show because of a brand or because I just like the show? Um So the amount of competition keeps increasing and um So that's that's really a major challenge.

Whether you're in cable, whether you're a Netflix, whether you're you know, doing podcast or or any type of platform, it's really how do you get the attention of the consumer? Um And I would say the second biggest challenge that you know, people don't talk about a lot, but was really a challenge for me when I was at BT is the measurement of the audience and how that translates into ratings. Uh. You know, we're still in a system where, uh, in cable, we have advertising spots and we sell those

two advertisers based on a guarantee of an audience. Um And if you don't hit that guarantee, you have to give advertisers money back. So if I put on a show on Tuesday, let's say Being Mary Jane, which was one of our popular shows, and you know, my viewer says, well, I'm gonna wait till Saturday to watch it, because that's when I have more time uh, and I'm not working. Um we wouldn't get credit for that show because you have to be within a three day window to get

credit for the maximum advertising. Correct. Correct. And a lot of consumers don't understand that, don't care about that. You know, it's all about convenience for them now and that means you know, watching it when you want to waiting, you can wait for you know, five episodes to pile up and then binge watch it. Um. So the rating system has not kept up with the platforms and with the

way consumers watch television basically. Um So that's very frustrating because you can have a very popular show that you know everyone loves, and you know you can't meet your guarantee to advertisers. Um So, you know, it's it's been amazing to me that the measurement systems and companies haven't

solved that problem. Um because it's a major issue, right And and when you were at b T you're part of a huge media conglomerate, Viacom, with you know, dozens of channels and a lot of cloud both with advertisers and sort of within the industry. And I know, over the years, people of Viacom and elsewhere have really tried to kind of go at the both the multi platform measurement challenge, capturing all the viewing and also having that

larger discussion with advertisers. I remember the the you know, the process that led just to even extending the ratings viewing period to three days. That was you know, months of negotiations and lots of arm wrestling and lots of horse trading. Um. What what didn't you find was sort of the fundamental obstacle to coming to a better system that would allow allow networks to capture more viewing? Was it just the entrenched constituencies? Was it technological? Well, Uh,

it was a little of both. Um, it was the constituencies because advertisers didn't really have a reason to make the system work better because they're getting shows at less of a cost when you think about it, um, and until someone comes up with a system that competes well with Nielsen, which is the you know, dominant um Um system right now. Um, you know, there was in any way to to resolve the issue. UM. So it's just

a perplexing system. And you mentioned a good point which I didn't mention when I was describing It's not it's not only the three day and seven day issue when you watch it, it's also what platform you watch it on. So if you watch my show on your phone or your iPad or your computer instead of on the cable network, we might not get credit for that. So that was a big part of it too. And that has just

grown and grown. Streaming viewing has grown and grown. That's increasing amount of money on the table right and and the younger generation is watching TV actual TV less and less. I remember both of my kids or millennials, and when they were in college, they didn't have TV s. It's like, how can you not have TV? Your mom's and the TV and they're like, well, we just watch it on

our computer or a laptop. And they knew as much about content, they probably watched more content than I do, but they were just watching it at another through another means. So that was a problem too. So, you know, I've been out of the industry for about a year. I don't know what's happened in that time, but I'm just still amazed that that that problem hasn't been resolved. Yeah, it's it's definitely a big one. Um. Let me ask you in the in your new chapter of your life.

Have you become have you have you had more time to become a consumer of content? Have you spent more time in the content world, or have you been traveling the world. I've been clearing your mind. I've traveled a little bit. I'm not a big traveler for long periods of time. I like to come home and check in.

But I am more of a consumer now. And I watched channels that I wouldn't watch before because they were too competitive to be et So now I can watch programming targeted to our audience, African American audience, and I can enjoy it as opposed to say, oh, I wish Power was on b ET, Why is it on Star? And you know there's always that very competitive part of

of running a network. Uh and and you know when UM black programming became popular, which it is right now, UM you know, it was coming at us from all different UM areas. And you know UM VH one had Monday nights where they put on their black programming, Bravo had Wednesday night. You know someone else had Thursday night. Our big night was Tuesday. So you just felt like you were, you know, in a boxing match all the time,

trying to be out others in the ratings game. UM so that made it hard for me to enjoy programming. But now I can watch it and enjoy it. Um. I can talk about it with my kids. Uh, they tell me what their favorite shows are. Uh. And I love binge watching. I really do. Ye now that I have a tome, not time, and now that I don't have to worry about ratings. And you know, binge watching was something I just hate it before, but now I'm yeah,

but now I'm like, oh, yeah, this really works. You know, I can watch um, five episodes of Succession if I want to, or The Affair or whatever. So yeah, I've all it has been a big TV watcher, but now I'm even more so of one. Is there anything about now that you're a consumer more of a you know, not in the industry? Is there anything about the way

shows are presented? You know that the binge option. Is there anything that that you that you access now and you think, oh, gosh, we should have done that five years ago, ten years ago at b B b et. Have you had that experience at all? UM? I think the Netflix model is pretty interesting that they drop all the episodes at one time. UM. I don't know that we could have really done that at BT because of you know, we were still um um joined at the hip with the rating system. But I mean, I think

consumers are used to that now. Um So when you like a basic cab or even pay cable now, when they have to wait a week to see a show, I think that really bothers the consumers more than it did five five years ago. Um. We've all become for the on demand era. So if you like episode one, you want to watch episode two right away, you know,

the thought that you have to wait a week. So in a way I wish that BT had been part of that business model, that we could have done that, because I think when you know, when you catch a consumers attention, you want to keep it and you don't want to risk them going to watch something else. Um, so I can't think of anything else. Um. Sometimes I wish we were more in pay cable because so we could use um more interesting language. But if that would be attier, because that seems to have gotten more and

more popular. I remember once I bought The Wire because I had heard that it was so highly you know, it was so um loved by the critics, and it was like the best in our Urgan documentary every I mean series ever made. So I remember buying it for BT and putting it on, but because we were basic Cable, I had to blank out all the curse words, which were considerable in that Yes, us were the F were the B word uh. And I remember talking to the head an in Double A c P because I run

it him to know. He's a friend of mine, Bruce Gordon. I called him and said, you know, we're putting on the wire. We may get some feedback from our criticism from our audience, but I want you to know we have an eight hundred number that sounds really outdated, and we have an eight hundred number, and if if there's a real problem with it, um, you know, I'll take it down. And he said, well, why would you be different from HBO, and I said, well, because we're basic

cable and they're paid cable. Anyway, we put it on. We just we got no feedback, but no one watched it. So we had the worst outcome, um, is that we had paid all this money for a show. Right. I almost wish they hated it and at least would talk about it, but it just died on our channel. Because you know, it took all the um culture or you know, um realism of the show out of it. Uh. And that's that's one of the problems you face in basic cable.

And and it's not to say I'm a proponent for a really foul language, but you know, sometimes it's part of a story. Um. One time, I'll tell you a funny story. During Being Mary Jane, we had a prohibition on BT about using the word bitch, and so Being Mary Jane was you know, more edgy, and so they would come and say, can we use bitch in this scenario?

And they described the scenario to me. Well, one time they came and they said, be uh, Mary Jane in a car accident and she was coming back to work and she had some injuries on her face, but she was walking down the hall, you know, very proud and she was going to tackle being back at work after

this accident. Anyway, they were playing a song in the background and they called to tell me that the song had thirty eight bitches in it, okay, And I was like, you're kidding me, right, thirty eight bitches And they said, yeah, that's really important to storyline, and you know, and the creator and the writer were really so I eventually said it was okay. It was a hip hop song, and um, it was important to the plot. But you know, it's really a big step for us as a basic cable

network to do that. And and um, in reality, the African American audience is um can be very conservative at times, so you never know when they're going to really criticize you or hold something against you. But I, you know, I often think that maybe the title of my booky eight Pitches, it would certainly in a turning point in my career. It would, so it would certainly be compelling.

But yeah, that's a that's a really interesting and of course nowadays you wouldn't even if you wanted to, you couldn't buy a show from HBO because it's all being funneled into it's all being funneled into HBO and the streaming service that Warner Media. And that's a that's an important point because a lot of shows we did buy were from We're either broken series or a series that you know, the networks weren't going to ever use themselves.

So um that that option has gone out the door, right, And speaking of Warner Media, you have recently joined the board of A T and T. Yes, I have just a matter of weeks ago, so I realized that that you're the new kid. You're the new kid in the boardroom.

But any you know, and and as fate would happen the companies and the headlines this week, I'm sure you saw that the Elliott management and as self described activist investor, has some thoughts about how A. T and T should be operating and what, you know, what what stock price

they can reach in the future. I realized it's touchy for you to talk about anything directly like that, but in the broad strokes, can you tell me certainly what motivated you to join the board and what you see as and A T and T s opportunities that they have with their you know, with their kind of unique mix right now of content, a massive wireless telephone service and also direct TV. Yeah, um, you're right. I can't comment on anything that's going on at the company as

a board member. But I was attracted um to joining the board of A T and T because of the wide array of of UH platform and businesses they do own UH and I was especially excited it that they that Warner Media was a part of the company, and I you know, admired Warner Media for years, and the HBO has an amazing brand, and the Turner Networks and seeing an I mean I could go on and on you know, brands pretty well, very well compated with them for many years, um and watch them grow and so UM.

When I was contacted about my interests in a T and T, that was the major reason I was really interested. And then you know, it's also great to learn more about the technology side and five G and all the other things coming down the pike. So um. You know, as I was planning my next phase of life, which has has been very interesting, I realized that I wanted to keep my hand in content and that this would be a good way to do it, you know, not in an operating role, but in a on a board

where you know, my advice could could be useful. Um. So I was. I'm very excited about that. Have you had much interaction with Randall Stevenson and John Stanky? Uh? Not yet. I haven't even been to my first board meeting yet, so you are so, But I'm not Sandel, you know, through their industry for a few years. Um. I haven't met John yet, but but I'm excited about getting involved and having been a CEO, and I know you have lived you know in vatcom, you lived through,

you know, several good sized mergers. When you look at the challenge that the the the challenge and the opportunity that A T and T has and still you know, they're they're still in the integration process of A T

and T and Warner Media. As a CEO, do you look at that and think, oh my god, that's a lot of work, or or are you kind of invigorated and think, wow, I can really I might be able to help them as they guide through as they you know, as they guide through the process of any any type of merger is difficult, you know, on any level, but at the scale of the big and this is that

they're operating is pretty immense. Yeah, I'm I'm invigorated, you know because, as you said, I've had thirty two years of experience at b ET, I've been on other boards for a long time, for over twenty years. I've seen on the board of Putter for a for a long time. Yes, uh, And I'm on the board of Marriott. I've been on that board for about eighteen years. I went through their Marriott Starwood merger. Uh So I've seen mergers and acquisitions, and I know it's an exciting time for the company.

It can be a scary time for employees and executives because you never know, um, what the company is gonna look like after the merger. But I thought, especially um, because this is new to a T and T, I'm very excited about being able to give good advice and be helpful from a board perspective. Well, you should be in for some lively discussions when you get together. Well,

we will stay tuned on that. Let me ask you a little bit going back to the year early days at b ET, you joined in and in the legal department you pretty much established the legal department were for many years. Um, I was the first in the House council. When you think about those days, I think a lot of people have looked back at the early the growth of cable and looking at how streaming is transforming the marketplace now and kind of looking for parallels and how

cable changed things. Um, how can you remember those early years when you were just growing by leaps and bounds the cable, the cable subscription, the whole subscription footprint of cable was growing by leaps and bounds in the eighties. Can you remember those years, like what what we're really Um? What really fueled b E t s growth at that time? And how when you kind of got the sense that you were really you were really getting in there and making enough of an impact to be petitives with the

with the entrenched Old Guard, which were the broadcast network. Right. Well, I UM, as you said, I joined b ET nineteen eighty six, the company was about six years old. UM. It started in nineteen eighty and UM, you know around the time I joined, UM it was becoming much larger at a faster pace because cable was just getting into urban areas. UM. You may recall when cable first started, it was it was a rule. It was the people that lived so far out they couldn't get a local station. Correct.

So it was a rural solution. UM. And it took a long time for it to get to uh bigger cities because they're so hard, they're so hard to wire. UM. But when I joined b ET in nineteen eighty six, before I left the law firm where UM I to know b ET and Bob Johnson, I actually worked on the DC cable franchise, UH for Bob Johnson and UM. I guess TC I was his partner at the time, but anyway, and they were a part owner of BT. I think we were the first UM cable programming investment

that t C I did. B Yeah, so we were early on. But anyway, long story short, there was no cable in d C when I left the law firm to go work at BT, So all the partners were like, you're going where and you know, cable is not going to really last. They're all kind of theories about m m ds or other kind of technology. And I learned a couple of things from those early days. One never underestimate new technology. And I think the broadcast networks did

underestimate cable. They just didn't really see it as a real competitor. And one of the reasons is that at the time, cable was mainly a retransmission mechanism. You know, no one was doing original programming. You know, we were buying things from the broadcast networks. We were showing music videos, you know, especially B E, T and MTV. UH. There was local news, but there wasn't anything very creative. So

I think the broadcast networks. Just didn't think we were ever gonna really grow or scale UM, but it happened over time UM and I think UM. The first indication at BT was that we were going to become competitive was when we went public in and UM. So that was five years after I started and UM. We were able to raise a lot of capital by going public.

So the question after the public offering was what were we going to use the proceeds for UM and we were the first African American company to go pub book on the New York Stock Exchange, so there was a lot of excitement about that, a lot of milestones for founder Robert for sure. The stock price on the first day went from seventeen dollars to twenty nine dollars. So not only were we a successful Black company, were a successful American company. You know, this was the promise of capitalism.

You know, you grow a business and then you take public. You don't necessarily have to grow a business anymore. For some reason, it's going to say that trajectory, it seems so so pleasantly old fashioned. We we had to prove that we had a certain number of years with positive revenue UM. But anyway, that's all change. But I think that's when you know, we started feeling okay, we we're

here to stay right. Wall Street has taken you seriously right, And UM, I think around that time, or maybe a few years earlier, we went from being a free service to a charging three cent and then I remember at one point we went to ten cent, which was charging the cable operating correct, not the not the consumers, but the cable operators and uh. And then we eventually got to ten cent and that was a big step. And that's a lot of guaranteed revenue when you're doing you know,

five year deals or ten year deals. And at that time, half our revenue came from advertising and half came from cable affiliates. So after we um, you know, we're able to get the long term cable deals. UM, we became more comfortable. And you know, advertising comes and goes. But you know, if you get some of the bigger brands who understand the African American marketplace, UM, that helps you

get others. But you know, tying up the cable operators and being the only service targeted to African Americans really put us in in a good place for a number of years. I think about those times, and I think about how much, you know, cultural attitudes have changed, just in, just in, even in my adult lifetime. Let me ask you, was it a difficult conversation at times to get people to to get cable operators to value and African American

centric services. Yes, for sure it was some of it as cable Again, as cable went into the major cities that had larger black population, it was an easier conversation, but still a lot of cable operators didn't really see the need for a channel like b et um or. They would say, you know, I don't have I have less than teen percent of black viewerships, so why would

I need you um. So there were a lot of hard conversations, a lot of marketing, a lot of dealing with local politicians to get them to support us UM. The fact that t c I was an investor helped a little bit, and John Long was a very big supporter. Helps to have cable's Darth Vader on your side, and sometimes it helped most of the time to help, but sometimes it hurt because other cable systems, bigger cable systems, were like, well, we know you gave t c I

a sweetheart, right so you have to prove you didn't. Uh. And I you know, the most favorite nations clauses were just, as a lawyer, the worst thing to me that ever existed. And those are really challenging in this in this environment, right the digital m v p ds. Yes, it's it's it's every It still makes my skin crawls to hear the term most favorite nation because you know, basically what it says is, Okay, I'm gonna do a deal with you, but if anyone else comes by and does a better deal,

I want the advantage of the deal they negotiated. So you know, it takes away your need to be a good negotiator because you can just sit back and wait for whoever to come along. But anyway, that's you know, that's a whole another story. Um but um so, there was a period I think from maybe eight um we went public in to maybe nine five where there's just immense growth because New York was coming online and d C and Chicago and uh, those those cities helped us

grow quite a bit. Um So, do you see parallels to the way you know, Netflix has just kind of stormed into the marketplace. Do you see parallels to kind of what's the disruption that's going on now right, I see a lot of parallels. Uh. The number one is that, um, cable programmers were so anxious to sell to Netflix in the early days. You know, it was almost like found money. It's like, oh, we have these shows on the library shows. You know, Netflix needs programming and they're in a big check.

And so what the cable programming industry did was feed and broadcast for a long time, and then all of a sudden, Netflix starts doing their original programs and starts being a viable competitor. UM. So I think it's kind of exactly what happened with cable and broadcast is that

the cable industry didn't take Netflix seriously. They really didn't, and all of a sudden they're a behemoth and um, you know, they don't have advertising, seems like no one's holding them to a positive revenue flow, doesn't seem to matter, and they're just creating more and more programming. So so, UM, I think that was a hard lesson for cable program mind site is definitely more closer than being in the trenches. Yeah, I'm never you know, through your career, especially in your

last year's at BT. I mean you were one of you know, it's sad to say, but you're one of maybe count them on two hands, the number of female

CEOs and prominent media positions. What in your experience and in your role now as CEO of leading women to find what what are the some of the best things that companies can do, companies of size can do to help groom a new generation of leaders to make sure that there's enough women, enough people of color, enough people of all diverse backgrounds to bring the diversity that that you know, people almost universally say is so important, especially to a business that is in the business of of

drawing public audiences and and you know, reaching mass markets, even even if it's in narrower slices. Everybody wants everybody wants to have. What so in you know, in in this environment right now is have there been have you had experiences a B E T or things or seen companies that did really smart, proactive things that helped groom

that generation of leaders. Yeah, that's intra sin question. I think, um, the thing we have to focus on now, and it's the term that's very popular as diversity and inclusion, But I think the part we should be you always have to focus on diversity, and you always have to make sure people get through the door. That's really important. So we can't take our off that. But I think the inclusion part is even more important these days because you want people to stay. You want people to feel comfortable,

whether it's people of color or women. You want them to feel comfortable in the environment of the company. You want them to feel like they can UM be promoted UM and that they have a long term career there and then maybe one day they can be in the c suite UM. And I think that's the part that we haven't focused on enough. Just how do you keep UM a diverse executive team at the company? And you

mentioned and about the number of women. I think that's what we still is an important issue because you know, there was a Vanity Fair article UM several years ago about the number of women that that would lead cable networks and I think maybe there were six or seven of us. It was pretty impressive. Within a year, half of that number we're gone for one reason or another UM. So even if you have a critical mass, it can disappear really fast. The executive musical chairs endless, you know,

consolidation or someone just decides to leave and do something else. UM. So it's important to keep the pipeline going and make sure that if you know, if if I leave, or Judy McGrath leaves or someone else, that there are people behind us to keep it going. And I think, you know, the past two years have been so interesting with the met Too movement and such a time um, and the

issues that women have in the workplace. Um, And those were issues we didn't talk about a lot, but those issues and you know, how do you have a family and and um do you know, become an executive at a company. UM. So there's still a lot of things to talk about. And UM, you know, it's the issue is never over. You know. I think it Sandra Day O'Connor who said in twenty five years we didn't we wouldn't need any affirmative action laws. And it sounded crazy

when she said, it sounds even crazier today. UM. But I think companies and and a lot of companies are taking diversity and inclusion very seriously, UM, and you know, really focusing on, um, how do you make it better um for working parents, for people of color, and especially the industry we're in because Um, it's so important to have different images on the air. I talk a lot about about about my life and growing up in the Segre date itself and only seeing black people on TV

for one hour a week and on Soul Train. I mean that was it. And if you miss that, it was like we didn't even exist. So this industry is so important. I think we've made a lot of um headway in terms of images and um, you know, I think, uh, broadcast network and cable networks and streaming services are all realizing what we knew at BT for a long time, that we have a very loyal audience and we want to see ourselves and uh, we'll show up in numbers

when it when it's done right. Um. And so it's important to have people behind the camera are in the executive suites who can make those kind of decisions and and are really sensitive to the viewing audience. Absolutely. UM. Only what you grew up. You were born and raised in South Carolina. I was born in born in South Carolina, and then I my dad was in the army, so we moved all over the place, moved all over the place, and then you went to law school and we're working

for a very prominent DC firm. Correct, What was it that really UM turned the tide for you in terms of leaving what I'm sure it was a successful law track to working for a startup UH company. Were you and were you a TV fan growing up? Did you? I was always a TV fan, UM, and I wanted I went to law school UM with the idea I was going to change the world some kind of way.

You know. I saw what their good Marshall had done in the fifties and sixties, or Constant Baker Motley or all these people that I admired, and I thought law school was the way to do that. By how I got to law school, and especially because I went to Harvard, it was not the best choice of law school. I mean, it was great for a lot of other reasons, but it wasn't the place to talk about changing public policy or changing the world. It was very focused on black

letter law and this is what the courts say. And so I was looking for a way out of it, and I went to Kennedy School because I thought that that would if I went into government, and I'd be closer to what I wanted to do. Anyway, long story short, at Ronald Reagan one when I moved to Washington, and I decided to go to a big law firm to hang out till the Democrats came back. But that took twelve years. So after about five years, I said, okay, I gotta I never really wanted to be a partner

at a law firm. Um. It was never in my career strategy. So I said, you know, I need to go do something else. And I have found by that time that I really enjoyed communications and media um, because that's the kind of work I was doing at the firm. And BT was a client, a very small client. They didn't have very much money. Uh. And eventually Bob Johnson offered me the position to come and start the legal department.

And by that time I had done some interviewing in New York UM with HBO and CBS, records and companies that sounded interesting to me. But I didn't really want to move to New York at that point. Uh. I was a d C girl. My dad was originally from d C. So even though I hadn't grown up there, it always felt like home. Um. So BET provided the perfect answer was an entertainment company. It was in d C. It was focused on the audience that I cared about. I had grown up with black brands like Motown and

um Um, Ebony and Essence UM. So it really brought a lot of different areas together. And I thought it was a way to change the world. Um, not directly through policy, but indirectly because you know, we could lobby the Hill or the White House, whoever was in the White House. We had a voice as one of the largest black companies out there, UM, and we were committed to it and committed to our audience. So you know, it worked out in a lot of ways to include

things that were of interest to me. It wasn't the career I planned. And I tell this story often. My father said, why are you leaving this prestigious law firm And I said, well, I'm just not having fun anymore. And he looked at me and he said, well, it was supposed to be fun. They wouldn't call it work. And he meant that to the core of his being. He was in the army for twenty five years. I don't think he could say he had fun on any

particular day. But I just thought then the era, Uh I went to Millennial, but Premillennial that you know, you should enjoy the work you do. And um, I was willing to leave a firm where I wasn't fully satisfied and take a risk. Uh. And in hindsight, it's the best risk that I've ever taken. And I'm sure Dad was proud. He was. He was by the time he lived in Baltimore, by time Baltimore got cable and for period of time he developed Alzheimer's early on, so that

was sad. But he would cut out any article he saw about Bete and send it to remember when you had to cut out articles and so he's been sending so he was very proud. Yeah, I think he would say I made the right move. Thank you so much, Debor for coming and sharing your thoughts with us. We really look forward to seeing you know what is next for you and I'll keep my eye on leading women

to great. Great. What I hope leading women to fine is a way to give women who are moving up the ladder in the business world a way to support each other. Um, and really focus on support Ardine and what needs we have. So I'm excited about it. So like a really worthy, worthy project. Well, thank you for having me today. Thanks for your time dab thanks for listening. Be sure to tune in next week for another episode of Strictly Business m