David Nevins: How Streaming Has Changed the Premium TV Game for Showtime

streaming and how it's changed the way Showtime operates. He talks about the expansion of Showtime's programming mandate and what it takes to compete for projects in the peak TV crush. He also offers insights into the origins of Sasha Baron Cohen's Who Is America and his thoughts on the coming final season of Homework. David Evans, thanks so much for making time for us. So glad to be here in

this glamorous hotel room. It's the life, you know, the life of the CEO, the life of a media reporter, one hotel room after another, get it done wherever it has to get done. It's good, um, you know, for the last couple of years, all anybody in TV can talk about is how much TV there is. You've been at the helm of Showtime now certainly programming wise, now for going on eight years, going on nine years. How

that long? Right? I guess that's right. I was. I was going to say seven going on eight, But I think you're right, and you have your details, correct. I I forget that my own history. Just I'll remind you when your kid's birthdays are coming. Okay, fair enough? Today is my son's birthday? Actually, happy birthday? There we go, Um,

what how has we know? You know, everybody's talking about the arms race and programming and costs, But how has What are some of the ways that the job of programming a premium cable network has changed in ways that wouldn't be intuitive to us, in terms of just the enormity of competition? Are there things that you have to do differently now because there is so much competition? I see, it is all opportunity. I feel like the range of the kinds of things that I can do has gotten

much more interesting. When I came to Showtime, we made mostly uh half hour little half hour drama comedies, Californication, and Nurse Jackie and Weeds. We had I think one or two hour shows, Dexter being the most prominent of them. And now I feel like I'm doing an animated show, and I'm doing documentaries and news shows, and I'm doing you know, really fresh, up to the minute things in UH in the circus and really spontaneous, crazy shows like

who is America where? Um. You know, it was a year and a half in the making, but the editing and the tinkering is going on the last second. So I do feel like the range of the kinds of things I get to make has dramatically expanded. Um. But I think you're asking a question about, you know, filling a programming mandate in the age of UH, in the age of streaming, in the age of a lot of people trying to make premium television. UM, I think you gotta go the extra mile to try to find originality. UM.

With so much stuff happening, it's UH. There's a lot of people repeating themselves and a lot of people doing UH playing in a similar or sandbox. So you've gotta you gotta go further and harder for originality. And you know, the good news is that the range of people who want to do television h is greater than ever before. I mean, I'm sitting there, I'm on a daily basis. Now.

It's people who have been the dominant players in the movie business from uh Jim Carey to Russell Crowe too, uh Jason blom or Scott Ruden to um Seth Rogan or Ben Stiller. Um. Uh. It's it's a group of people who probably wouldn't have been accessible uh for Showtime six years ago. Um. And they're all interested in doing great creative work for us. UM. But you gotta dig a little harder, you and be a little bit more adventurous, um than than the old days. But that's that's that's

the good news. Would you say from the time that you certainly from the time that you started at Showtime to now, would you say, you know, adjusting for inflation, that the CBS Corporation is spending appreciably more on content. Definitely, absolutely, where we are spending more. We're spending more on a per episode basis. The level of production value that's expected

from us has gone up. And we're also spending more because we're putting out more hours of original content than than we did before, but our revenue has gone up pretty dramatically in order to justify it. It's hard. It's hard to spend more on programming if your revenue isn't moving in the right direction. But our revenue is moving in the right direction. Uh, so it pays for itself. But no question about it. And uh we're we're always pushing for more and trying to you know, we've gotta

keep pushing for more. We gotta get rewarded for it with new subscribers. And in a streaming universe, Um, every time you put something new that people are interested in, it drives sign ups. You can also put new things on that don't drive sign ups, um, you know, in which case you're not investing your money as well as you can. But as long as you're putting things out there that has a defined audience that somebody is willing

to pay money for, you can justify it. It's I'd be interested to see the link between you announcing that something is coming and sign ups. So people people read in the press that you're doing a Rodger Ales mini series with Russell Crowe and maybe Nicole Kidman, and that that gets people's interests. Like you, you can track. I don't believe that. I think in the in the age

of the Internet, Um, it has to be instantaneous. So I don't think that a press announce A press announcement may create a glow, may create some brand awareness, some brand halo. I don't think a press announcement drive sign ups, and I don't think there's much evidence that it does. We did the t c A yesterday. We were trending on Twitter, Showtime is trending, shut up, and Dribble was trending. Uh, Homeland was trending, David Nevians was trending. I don't think

that drove sign ups. Uh, it's not going to drive the sign ups that Sunday's episode of Who Is America or Sunday's episode of The Affair will drive. And you know I see it every day. So there's a build up of of of sign ups over the course of the week. It peaks on Sunday, goes down a little bit on Monday, and then keeps going down through the week, and then starts building up again as we head towards the weekend day Saturday Sunday peaking again. Um, and uh,

you've got to be instantaneous. So when it has to be available. Um, I think in order to move an audience, and for you as a programmer, that must be a joy that now you can it is so easy to sign up. I mean, you know in years past, it was you had to call the cable company and stay on for two hours and wait for two weeks. And now people can literally push a button. Yeah. Well, the thing that I always used to say because my background, I was a network executive, broadcast network executive early in

my career, and then I was a producer. And when I first came to showtime, it was the only form of television, premium television, subscription television is the only form where there was no direct correlation between programming and revenue. Uh. If you sit at CBS or TNT r FX, you can say, I'm gonna put the show on the air. It's going to get one point six in demo and that's going to be worth x amount of revenue. Uh.

With us, it was always so uh indirect. In fact, you can always make the argument that less programming costs less money and you're not gonna show any obvious loss of subscribers. Um, it's gotten much more direct than that. So now you can actually attribute revenue two shows and it's UM, so you can immediately see the effect of

a show and a show that is growing. So show like Who Is America which as growing, grew in ratings weeks one to three and four, and uh most importantly grows in UM we two had you know, Week one was a very good sign up week Week two was bigger than week one. That that never happened. So that's clearly evidence of a show that is getting a ton of word of mouth and getting in causing people to buy. All of those people complaining that they were duped into

being Who Was American? The Sasha Brown Cohen Show, all those people complaining that they were duped, that was like marketing. Yeah, I mean I had a lot of powerful, important people carrying the water for us, So that's always a good thing. Let me just ask you how there was some commentary about that show that Baron sas Sasha Brown Cohen's excuse me, Sasha Baron Cohen's UM approach didn't play as well in two thousand eighteen as it did a decade ago when he was when he was on the Ali g Show.

Did you feel that when you watched it? Do you do you accept that criticism. It felt a little out of step with with our times right now. I don't. I mean, I think people there's it's a rough and tumble world, and there's certain people when you know, there's a certain sensitivity. But uh, he is a provocateur and a brilliant artist, and I think it's really important to create space for provocateurs to pro to provoke and and uh, satirists to satire. And um, I I think he is

a fair editor. Uh what what he puts on the air, he doesn't you know, he's an improv comedian, he he uh. Um. The whole essence of improv is go where people will lead you, and he lets people lead him down some pretty crazy paths. And I think he's a truth teller and uh so Uh, I think it's important in our culture to allow comedians the space to provoke, do satire. And I don't think there's anybody better than Sasha in a pretating our times. Um yeah, I mean, I I don't.

I think he's he's he is a truth teller, and I think he's fair and fair and how he puts his episodes together. No one's ever accused him of editing unfairly taking things out of Contextum, so he follows where people where people lead. Um. You mentioned that that that Who Was America was an eighteen month development process. That's

that's interesting. One thing I'm hearing from people is because there is such a chase right now for creative talent and programming, that development can be very accelerated, sometimes to the detriment of the final product. But that sounds like a very That sounds like the opposite. Yeah, I mean, if you're going to be led by your creators, and we try very hard to be led by by our creators and give them the space and room and time that they need. Um, sometimes you can go asked and

sometimes I like to go fast and send times. It takes longer. And you know, Uh, this was a show that had to be invented. The characters had to be invented, the the concepts had to be invented. The look and the feel and the prosthetics had to be invented. So it took it took some time, and then it took takes Uh. Um, you gotta you gotta do a lot of different pieces to come over to come up with uh stuff that is good enough to meet Sasha's barrier

for you know, his his bar for what works on television. Um, so did he did he pitch this to you in a nascent form or did he bring you some material already shot that wetted your appetite? It was a nascent form, nothing was shot. You know. We began to talk about the possibility of you know, doing the undercover show that he hadn't done for a very long time, and I chased him really hard. So he was kind of he was he was shocked by representatives or it was a

connection that you made torely with him. Representatives were involved. Speaking of representatives, that's another interesting area of the business right now. We are seeing you know, both CIA to a greater degree endeavor the parent company of w M E Are. They are both and now U t A is even starting to get into the into the business of production tiptoeing still but but it never in particular

is really building a roster. Does that concern you to see another Yes, they could be another supplier, but they're there. They're coming in with an agenda to help talent own their control, their destiny. At a time when you want to take showtime around the world, it's a lot easier for you. I have a number of different feelings, like I'm I'm supportive of anybody who wants to put more

capital into the production of of great television. And uh, I think there are certain inherent conflicts of interest that are that are dicey. It's not my issue, it's the issue of the talent. So I think there's it's a little dicey territory. But UM, I'm I have I have a real open door policy, and I believe you know. UM, somebody brings me a show that I feel like it's going to be great for showtime, Uh, I want to I want to facilitate that show getting on the air.

I have business priorities. It's really important to us to own the distribution of our of our shows, and I don't make any any bones about that. But um, because of the way the success that we've been having, the desirability of our programming, h nine times out of ten,

we can offer better distribution terms than anybody else. UM, and we've had such dramatic increase in UM and the desirability of our programming and ability to be packaged together that more often than not, people want even big studios want to take advantag of our our distribution deals. So we're kind of working it out and in good ways that I'm happy. UM. I think, uh, you know, if you're in the talent representation business, UM, you got to

be clear about who you're working for. UM. But I'm able to see the grays in it and the opportunities and the opportunities for for showtime to be supplied by UM some of the you know, agency back companies as long as you're willing to put capital in and and uh, we can work with them. And there's obviously you know, they're going to get behind people with very big visions and people that are going to come to the table with you know, with likely with very provocative and very

kind of sizzling ideas. That's interesting. UM. So we do business with all commerce. You know, I don't think in this in this age, you can afford to uh close off any avenues. Are you concerned at all that avenues might be closing off to you? Though? We're seeing you know, Disney and Fox are soon to be one and they are talking very seriously about, you know, launching a truly vertical integrated streaming platform that would that would be the exclusive place of all Disney content. And you know you

don't do a ton of business with Disney. But one of your one of your breakout shows this past year, Smilth, came from ABC Studios. Does it concern you that there might be some constriction, Well, I mean I think they're clearly launching a streaming service that will be somewhat competitive to us, So it means another another competitive competitor on the block. Um, but that's not new. There's new entrance

entrance every day. And our brand is strong. Our relationship with our customers wrong, our relationship with our distributors or various distributors, whether it's Amazon or Comcast or UH direct TV an A T and T which now owns my competitor, So that the the environment has gotten more complicated Disney. As I finished that sentence, Uh, Disney and A T and T now own HBO. My are big competitor. UM A T and T and Direct TV pay us a lot of money every year, but they want to keep

selling us. So uh, it just it just makes for strange bedfellows. And ultimately, uh, talent wants to go where talent wants to go, and they tend to have uh a fair amount of saying it. And if I create a a successful platform that launches successful shows and create a great creative environment, talent will keep wanting to come

the showtime. And I would bet that even in the era of Disney creating whatever new streaming service are going to create, there's still gonna be talent that studio that wants to come this showtime that will have to be allowed to come to showtime under acceptable deal terms in order for them to be in business with the talent that they want to be in business with. So I think there's uh a pretty healthy ecosystem that is self policing. That's how we look at it. Um. We we've seen

this before. We've seen the pendulum swing too. We want to own everything too, well, maybe we want to play the field. So it's an amazing moment. I want to own everything. It's it's the economics are better and it's better for us to own everything. But uh, I wouldn't not want shameless And um there's there's shows with major studios where I can we we we really do all the distribution, but we share the ownership and we share

the upside that those deals are fine. Um, But you know, we have a you know, there's just it's it's it's gotten complicated. But our ability to be somewhat agnostic, to be UM agnostic to the UM whoever supplying it to us, to be not tied with a major distribution company we're not tied. You know, we're not tied to Comcast, we're

not tied to direct TV gives us. There's things that we can do that it is harder for some of our competitors to do because we are actually an independent UM company, you know, work Our company is CBS and Showtime, which is small in the world that we live in. But it also gives us flexibility deal flexibility that some of my competitors don't have. We're not like Netflix, where you know you're we'll pay you a little bit of premium. You have no upside your uh, your international distribution can

take a nap. Your domestic syndication people they can I can nap UM. Uh. We're still attractive place for independence or the semi independence to do business UM because UM. Because we can we can generate hits that have ancillary value. Certainly, certainly you've you've proven that UM do you in the world where everything so much is on demand, and there's so much viewing tends to be done in a binge format. Do you still think about programming flow? Do you still

program due to a certain extent? I mean, I mean I'm using Shameless to launch Kidding to help Kidding get off the ground, the new Gym Carey show Kidding from Jim Carrey and Michelle Gandry, and that's that's coming up in September, and uh, Kidding is going to have a better shot for having Shameless in front of it. It's far from the be all on the end at all. I could easily launch Kidding without Shameless, but I think

there's a compatibility between those two shows. Uh Shameless was helpful and launching um smelf and so it's to use a double negative. It doesn't not matter, but it's way less important than it used to be. And more important is the continual introduction of new shows on a regular basis, so there's new things to cause sign up behavior, So people who are subscribing to es feel like they're always

getting something new and interesting. Right. Because the flip side of making it much easier to sign up, it's much easier to easy on, easy off, and so you better continue to deliver and are the fact that we have four of the six top scripted shows UH, and they don't all air at the same time year they lay out of the air. We're talking about Shameless and Billions and the shy um and UH and Homeland UM, which is not to mention Ray Donovan or who is America

or Kidding or smelf um. These we have more shows that matter than the other premium competitors and UH, the ability to lay them out across the year UH means we have less of a churn issue than some of

our competitors. UM. On the in the area of of like the documentary programming, the sports that you're going into, your having a topical late night show coming up with de Susan Marrow, Um, would you Those aren't the kind of shows that have, you know, a big back end for somebody down the road, But those are more important to you in terms of expanding the breadth of what

you offer to make it to make showtime really sticky. UM, we're able to get a lot of I mean I look at different things differently, so news and documentary shows like the Circus or UH, the Fourth of State, about the new York Times or by the way, um, which is Emmy nominated, and it is an incredible show. And you know, it really sort of looked at the first year of the Trump administration from the point of view of the New York Times. And it gets watched. It's

getting watched. It got watched a lot last night, Um, because people are catching up to it. It has a long lifespan, and it's an incredible Uh, it's an incredible document and so um ah, those things I think enriched the experience and they create a lot of news off the entertainment pages. Uh. You know, um, shut Up and Dribble, which we announced yesterday. Um, you know, on the heels of this trip Twitter attack from the White House towards

Lebron James over the weekend. Here's something we've been working on for a year, smartly titled shut Up and Dribble, based on the Laura Ingraham you know Laura A. Graham's um warning at professional athletes. We just want to we want to see a play ball. We don't want to hear what you have to think. Um. Just you're when you're able to have things that feel like they're in the zeitgeist, they have enormous impact on your brand. So, uh, that's the value of documentary filmmaking. UM the Trade also

Emmy nominated this year Matthew Heineman. And when last year's Oscar sort of digging really deep into the drug epidemic in America, really powerful piece of filmmaking gets got watched a lot. I mean he's really showing, uh, the opioid drug the drug crisis from point of view of people living in Ohio and people out of the Mexican border growing and shipping, and you're really inside on both sides.

UM boxing UM is a resurgent American sport that is starting to take UM, starting to take market share back from m m A. It's young, obviously male, but it is it has young good demographics. People perceive boxing to be an older person sport, but you know, great young African American, Latino uh demos and uh with that goes a lot of young white kids to watching boxing, and uh it is UM it's become a real part of

who we are. And UM we have certain people exiting, you know, some of our competition slowly exiting the business and we become the dominant home and there's there's great value and you know, I don't think we're gonna be competing for uh NBA or NFL rights anytime soon, but to be able to be the most important home for a major sport has has real ongoing value and uh um.

You know, some of our biggest single night sign ups are boxing events, so uh, you know, we're we're we're bullish about that and so you know, we're offering we're trying to be number one or number two and and everything that we're doing UM, but we're slowly expanding the range of what we're doing. Jesus and Marrow, I think UH for people under thirty five is a home run and I think they have unlimited potential to get uh um to really to really get big. Those guys are

next league talent. They're not UM. And I think the really original you know so much of Late Night Calm and he kind of comes out of UM either that night Show or the Daily Show and Jesus America come from a different place, and I think they will the Bronx Okays called the Bronx um and uh and they just have their own voice, and I think they're gonna be uh They're gonna be a long time force and it is interesting that all these things that we're talking

about you never heard, you never rarely heard Showtime or HBO in the context of something that was happening in the headlines. And I think now we're in the headlines a lot, you know, UH, UM, Sasha Baron Cohen makes headlines. UM, shut Up and Dribble Yesterday makes headlines. Of course, it's a headline when a long running, UH, celebrated show like Homeland,

UM announces it's going into its final season. UM. But the ability for Sasha Baron Cohen to make front page of the New York Times UM before it's even launched, because major politicians are UM, you know, coming out talking about their experience with the show. UM. It's UM. It's good to make noise and it's good to make ways. And I think that we've had a pretty consistent ability to anticipate the zeitgeist and sort of be in the

right place at the right time. I mean, certainly Shut Up and Dribble as a case of being in the right place at the right time. So you have the show about uh, the changing politics of being an African American athlete, UH, centered on Lebron James and you're ready to announce it on the Monday after Um, that was the dominant Twitter story of the weekend, Trump versus Lebron No, you couldn't buy that. So there's a certain amount of luck involved in that. But it's also because we're uh,

we're fishing in the right waters. And you know, Vinny Malholtra, who's buying you know, and making making the decisions on our documentaries and making those decisions, is fishing in the right waters and he's not, um, you know, he's you know, we're doing stuff about the New York Times, about uh, the FBI versus the presidency because we kind of saw about a year ago that this was going to be an important story and got Alex Gibney to do it.

And it's a historical documentary. But that's a fraught relationship over time, um uh you know, And you have to have people inside the organization who are who have their finger on the pulse, um and care about that and make that a brand priority in order to have those lucky moments. I have to ask you, of course about Homeland. That's got to be very for you personally. That was literally the first show you greenlit when you came to showtime.

And you know, I don't have to tell you how rare it is that something like that in eight years, eight seasons now, going on nine seasons later, it's you know, it's going to have a very triumphant exit, no doubt. Yeah, I think you know, um, I you know, Homeland has been a very special show. I think it's done an amazing, amazing job of reinventing itself over time. I mean it really began as the carry in Brodie story, UM, and there was a huge question would it what would it

be after Brodie? UM? And I always knew and Alex gonz always knew that there was a core, There was a great character in Carrie Matheson, and there was a core franchise and what is the place of America in the world in the twenty one century? This complicated place, and that was always the subject of the show through

the spy franchise. And he I think he did an incredible job of reinventing it post that initial kind of push pull kind of romance um story, and then he reinvented it year after year and through very careful research, you know, being a great storyteller and and really good lines of Uh, information that's coming to him from the State Department, CIA and all the people he talked to in Washington. He's got good sources. Has made is reinvented

a show really well year after year. And Uh. When they first started talking about Alex saying, I think I might be done, I think I'm ready to be done. You know, this is the third year of a three year deal. I tried to have a little bit of a cooling off period to make sure that he was ready to be done. Um, and he was. When he was steadfast about it, it felt like this is the right time he's I think he's gonna have a great ending. I think, Um. You know, Claire Daines and Manny Patinkin

have just had uh done incredible work. I think they've loved their experiences. It's been a very happy experience for everybody involved. You know. I also have to handed to Howard Gordon, Leslie, Lincoln Gladder. They've all been there the whole way. Um and um and Rick Rosen actually uh endeavor age and who kind of represents everybody everybody involved.

And and while we're naming names, give to Bert Sulky, uh Foxe uh, Gary Levine and Randy Rounkole at showtime, and it's been a very happy experience for everyone involved. And every one of those people has been there from the beginning. UM, and I think it is will go out a real winner as a programmer. Does it give you a little uneas though, because it has been such a cornerstone of your schedule. I believe in you know, I believe last as long as your natural born life

and then uh and then move on. I believe in the renewal of television. Uh. We have strong shows at every stage of their lifestyle. We've got a brand new show in uh, The Shy, which is showing real signs of being a hit. We've got Billions, which just finished season three stronger than ever um and was robbed, was robbed of Emmy nominations. It's just not It's for whatever reason, Billions is not nailed that particular popularity contest. And I think it has something to do with uh, um, the

glossiness of it, the perceived brow nous of it. I'm not sure, but it is as uh. I mean, I reread a lot of scripts and as as you know, it is as well written and well acted as any of the shows that are that are nominated, so you know, but anyway, UM, I feel great about where we stands. We have we have shows that every every step. We have not had too many follow years where there's been nothing stick. We just add a new show and add a new show and slightly picking up the pace of

adding the new shows. So I think, um, we're incredibly

well positioned for the future. Um, these last couple of years have been have been great with um the Shy and Smith and Billions and I think Kidding is gonna matter and uh, and you know, two new shows I'm really excited about in Black Monday with Don Cheetle and Regina Hall and Andrew Reynolds and uh, then you're gonna see Sitting on a Hill with Kevin Bacon and all this Hodge and I think these are all sort of going to be positive have positive impact on our on

our service. Have you talked at all, even in the broad strokes with Alex Ganza about the vision, I'm not. I don't expect you to give it to no, I actually haven't. I mean I've had I know what he was thinking a year or two years ago, because I had this conversation with him, you know, along the way in previous seasons. But in this period between uh, last season and this season, when we were having the cooling off period, are you sure you're you're ready to end it? Um?

I haven't. I have not pushed him on that conversation. And I think now he's getting ready to go to d C for his you know, with the with the writing staff and actually some of the actors. I think Claire is hoping to be part of it, but she's also expecting about to have a baby. Um, And I know better than to ask him too many questions before he goes to d C. So Hill to all me and his right time. So I knew, I knew where his head was a year ago, but I'm not sure

where his head is today, to be honest. Another interesting thing about Homeland is for all those people, all those heavy hitters, Alex Leslie, Lincoln, Gladder to stayed with it. Yeah that's amazing. You know, used to be to three seasons and you know a shore runner would want to go onto something else, and uh, it can work either way. I mean, I'm not a verse in some situations too. You've told the stories, you know, one writer has told the stories in their brain against a certain concept and

then let's get somebody else's brain in there. So I'm not against it, um, but it is a beautiful thing when you have somebody really stay with the work of art overtime, UH, make it really personal in the way that you know, let's be honest, fundamentally, it's the mind meld between Alex Sinclair. It's what at its core uh and and Leslie has been a beautiful, beautiful realizer of that. But you know, television at its deepest core is about

the back and forth between writer and actor. And UH, I really admire the creative relationship that developed between Alex and Claire, and I think it's a real tribute to both of them as generous um, generous artists. They kind of like, we're very careful to manage that relationship and U um, Claire takes care of Alex and Alex takes care of Claire, and it's a beautiful thing. And then you have you know, Mandy and Leslie uh bringing their top spin. It's it's it's kind of very exciting to watch.

Could we see continuing Adventures of Saul Barronson? Is there any kind of franchising or spinoff even remotely possible. It's always possible. I I think it's important that the show come to an end, come to a great end before any of that stuff is really you know, we're not a broadcast network. Are not obliged to do something like that. Um. I would always listen to it. Uh, you know, any ideas that the core creators wanted to talk about, but

I wouldn't hold my breath. Or could it be the kind of thing that would rest for a couple of years and then maybe they might have an inspiration? Absolutely, I mean I do believe that. Um As I say, the core idea the franchise, which is, yes, it's a spy franchise, but at its core, what is America's place in a complicated century world? That will not be an obsolete idea, you know until we get to the twenty

second century. You know that that that construct is kind of you could adapted to your own challenge right now? What is Showtime's place in an expanding programming universe? My question for you. You became CEO just about two and a half years ago. Um, what and you came up as a programming executive at NBC in the in the real you know, glory days of Muss TV Fox. You

worked as a producer. When you became the top executive at showtime, what did you find You know, obviously you brought an incredible programming resume, what did you find personally hard or challenging or what was the learning curve for you? Like to become a CEO. I find myself as motivated by the business side as I do by the creative side at this point in my career, and becoming CEO two and a half years ago coincided with a radical

change and how we make our money uh UM. I came in about six months before we launched O T T and uh UM, and so I was sort of there in the planning and has radically transformed our our organization, how we market Who the people that we have in our marketing department are. We have um a core group of engineers. We never had engineers at at show time, with exception that people who put put the signal up on the satellite. But UM uh so all that is

really different. So I was kind of there for the um you know, able to shape the transformation of an organization, transformation of a of a of a culture. And I find that incredibly motivating and fulfilling and uh so, um yeah, in one sense, I stepping onto a moving train, but um I was stepping onto a train that was moving in a significantly different direction. And uh and really able to shape that that that new direction. And so I

find that, you know, incredibly rewarding. Great, Well, congratulations on your success today, Thank you so much for your time. Thank you all right, thanks for listening. Be sure to join us next week for another episode of Strictly Business m