Can a Studio Make Movies for VR?

that's not all. Stick around till the end of this podcast for a mystery bonus conversation about VR entertainment you won't want to miss. Thanks for coming in. I think we should start with describing what The Limit is because it's a virtual reality production, but not quite similar to a lot of what I've seen out there. The Limit is a virtual reality movie. That's how we talk about it. It is a cinematic experience. It is a lean back experience.

A lot of people when they think of VR, they think of gaming, and there are certainly a lot of fantastic games in VR. Um As the VR division within a larger media company that's focused on creating premium scripted and unscripted entertainment are slant on. This is very much on the live action side, UM, and so our focus is on cinematic content in VR. Got it, And you've got quite a cast in this one. I mean, describe the story and kind of what's different in terms of

the set up for this kind of production. Well, I think it's you know, really, what we're doing is we're putting people inside of an action movie. We're taking advantage of the field of view and the technology and handing those tools over to great filmmakers. And in this case, Robert Rodriguez joined UM and a Aventually it's a tale about a cooperative UM cyborg of course, right, because that's what you do when you work with Robert Rodriguez UM and you as the viewer, are basically a star in

the movie. Michelle Rodriguez plays another agent of the same making and biology and technology, and she basically takes you through a story. Uh. It's set piece after set piece after set piece, high action, high octane UM basically revealing who you are as you moved through the story. Talk about your background because you were essentially a company that got acquired by st X, So describe that before and after sure. Um, so Rick and I have been working

together for quite a while. We met at a company called Maker Studios. I was running creative development and Rick was running the entertainment vertical. We developed and package a lot of products there, RECU Piece, Rescu Piece, r I P. Really that's another pat Yeah that's next week. Um. But you know, so we met, we really hit it off.

It's been a great partnership. And and what we saw coming was this new technology, right, and so the idea these headsets were coming out there was hardware, Google, HTC, Facebook, We're all really going headfirst into this and you know, investing billions of dollars, and so we knew that there was going to be a content issue, right and and so the you know, the idea content issue, meaning there's nothing to watch in these headsets. The only way for people to want to buy these things is if there's

something fun to watch or interact with. And so we took it upon ourselves just to figure out how do we produce content. Obviously, we have more video production background that we do interactive, so we really focused on non interactive three sixty video. Um. This was just around the time that Facebook and Google were launching through sixty video products on their platforms, so they were really in need

of touting what this new video product was. So we ended up working really closely with a bunch of a bunch of entertainment companies, but also really closely with Google and Facebook to help them develop their own content and even work with them to help develop their own camera systems. And we ended up producing over the course of you know, two years, we produced over a hundred VR experiences, primarily distributed on Facebook and YouTube, and you know, we built

a pretty substantial production services company. We're making what other people wanted to make, right, We're really facilitating production UM. It was always our intention to figure out how to crack storytelling UM. And we were introduced to STX and it seemed like, you know, their aspirations of being more than just a movie studio were very clear from the get go UM, and they liked the idea of bringing

in talent. Yes we're talking about a movie, but look what all the other things that we're doing, and plugging in these directors, actors, writers into other formats. And so I think we helped build void for them and get into a more innovative for thinking space. And now it's been about two and a half years since we've been there.

I think what was really exciting for us was as an independent VR production company, we were really limited in the scope of what we could make and it was essentially the bulk of what we were doing was work for higher um and and so with st TX, it was really having the resources, having better access to talent, and and really just you know, having a seat at the table when it came to the core pillars of that media company. I think at other studios, the VR

division might be in the basement or something. It's it's sort of like if it's even there, it's you know, it's an experimental part of the company, where it's it's really about the marketing assets that they could create versus the original content opportunity. And also how can we actually build a business around this new medium and utilize all the best, you know, facets of of what we have to offer as a studio. And so for us, that

was a really strong proposition. Well, on the other hand, I can understand why other studios may treat this is a more let's call it marginal pursuit as I see it, and we could talk about it if you disagree, the market for VR entertainment is not quite there, even by the most i'd say charitable assessment. So any company like STX that put serious investment in this, there's risk that there's just not a market there for that content. Is that assessment off base? I think it's a it's a

fair assessment. But you know, the level of investment that we're making is actually very responsible. I think what we're not doing is going out on day one and just spending a ton of money and hoping we're going to get our money back. We spend a lot of time early on UM developing thoughtful strategies and a business plan around this. We knew that we in in in pursuing original content, original VR movies. It wasn't going to be

free content. We knew we had to monetize the content right, and so we had to really look at how how big is this market? How big is this market going to be in twelve months, twenty four months? How can we create a pipeline of content to sort of service the need for premium VA entertainment with recognizable talent while at the same time you know having UM, you know, knowing the caliber of talent that we're working with, you know,

making it realistic for them to work with us. I mean, the nice thing about our our content is that it is short form, right, and so our shoot with Robert in Austin for the Limit was a week, and so the asks are smaller with talent, the overall timelines are shorter. And because you've developed this new format, the post production and some of the challenges and pitfalls and I think other companies are are are hitting up against we sort of found ways around that to help us save well.

As you guys look around the landscape, whether it's from studios in the traditional sense or sort of a new wave of uh studios specialized in this space, are you seeing signs encouraging signs that the VR entertainment marketplace can get somewhere. Absolutely. I think it's still early. Like any technology. I think in the next few years we'll we'll see

a big boost in sales. And in fact, last year on the fourth quarter of the holiday season, you know, we're speaking with Oculus and they were feeling really good. They overshot what they thought they were going to sell in terms of units, and so I think, like a lot of technology, it takes longer than people think, but

then when it arrives, it moves a lot faster. And so I think we're still in that phase where people are understanding what these things are there now all in all the top like gift lists right for holidays and purchases um, and so I think we're early, but it's definitely gaining a lot of momentum. And I think right now our approaches. You put on these headsets and you

don't really recognize anything. Right. There's a lot of independent gaming companies, there's a lot of sort of experiential live action docuseries, and I think those are all important facets of this VR ecosystem. But the idea of a VR movie, a blockbuster VR movie, You put on your headset and you see Michelle Rodriguez's face, you see Norman Rita's face. These are people that are super fans right of The Walking Dead, or they love Avatar, they love Fast and Furious.

All of a sudden, there's a confidence that we're giving these people that this is something that they should be watching and for a micro transaction, it's it's worth opening up the wild. They've always have already invested money and time into this tech and so now they really want to utilize it, and so they they mean the users and so um. You know, I think what we're trying to do is build a behavior, right, because we're building

the market as we go. And if we create this behavior and be consistent with the output of content, all of a sudden, if someone knows that every two or three months a new VR film is going to come out with directors and actors that they love, that's gonna that's gonna start to snowball and turn into a real business. Well, how big are your ambitions here or should I say how being an upside do you think there is for

VR entertainment? Could we see it side by side one day with film and television or do you have perhaps you know, smaller expectations. Well, I think we look at sort of the history of cinema, right, and we've sort of done done this and looked at a timeline, and it's really interesting when you see advancements that have really created a more immersive experience for the audience, and so you know, introduction of color, surround sound, computer graphics, three

d um large format. What we're doing, we see at a high level is sort of an iteration on a process that's that's been taking place for a really long time, and so the potential for it is actually huge. And we're also thinking there are we're actively exploring this now, opportunities to bring these experiences inside of movie theaters. Right, And so, you know, this screen is a screen and a VR headset. For us, it is just another screen.

It happens to be a very big screen. But as a premium content studio, how can we fill that screen with the best quality content with the biggest and best talent that we can find. And we think if we if we can do that, and we can do it consistently, and we're grabbing market share now, we're going to hold onto that market share as we hit this um, you know, inflection point when it comes to the adoption of this technology. We think it has tremendous potential. Yeah, I mean it's

it's I think distribution is the key word, right. There's there's people at home that have these headsets. More and more will buy them over time as they get higher resolution, they're lighter, they're smaller and more comfortable. Um. The other piece of it is out of home location base. We're talking before we started the podcast about Dreamscape. I think location based VR entertainment is growing rapidly um and people are realizing that while the home market grows, how do

we get headsets out into the real world. So people understand that this technology exists and that's extremely powerful. So the idea of you know, first window at movie theaters where you go to a movie of traditional movie, you walk out and you realize that there is a VR movie theater now the screen next door to that, and

so building that out we're actually selling tickets. That is a core part of our proposition because I think at this moment, the home is the home, and now we need to build this first window of location based distribution

because that will really help grow this thing. Well, it's also kind of a chicken egg thing, isn't it, Where technology, on the one hand has to be there for content to flourish, but on the other hand, sometimes it's that big piece of hid content that can get the technology going and then get the audience go that house cards a moment exactly, or I would say I Love Lucy might be the better. Yeah, it's a really a new medium, whereas I don't feel like Netflix is a different medium

than telligence, right, it lit up a platform. But you're right, it's not. It's not a different iteration of a format. I think, UM it is chicken or egg. I think time and time again, it has proven that it's not about the technology, it's about the utilization of the technology. And I think in our minds, these VR movies are a really strong first step into powerful narrative storytelling using these different tools, and it's just about getting it out

there to the people. The great thing about VR movies as an example of a type of content in VR is, unlike gaming, we think that most people would be interested in watching a VR movie. It doesn't require, you know, expertise in gaming. It doesn't require having to sort of, you know, use a controller that maybe you're not familiar with. It's it's actually really accessible, and especially with our format,

which is very much a lean back format. Just like you would sit on your couch and watch a TV show, you could sit on your couch and put a headset on and lean back and watch one of our movies. So we think that from UH and an audience perspective, it's really easy to jump to jump into these and that's really going to help UM you know, our our our our our hope and and sort of everything that that we're working towards is that this this becomes a habit and it becomes a category of content that people

associate with VR. Right now, that is not the case, and so a lot of the work we're doing, I mean, the reason we're here talking to you today is really to help spread the word that this type of content exists, and that from a discover ability standpoint, really helping the limit and our future projects really stand out. Well. You know, we talked about chicken and egg and how content potentially

lead the way. But on the other side of the equation, the distribution, the technology side, the thing that you depend on to get your content out there. Do you think things need to happen on that front that will help the content things. You're looking out into the marketplace's future and saying this needs to happen, and then content is

really going to start to catch fire for sure. I think in a perfect world, every major VR marketplace would have the capabilities to to to take our our VR movies and sort of display them to the viewer without them having to install a standalone app, right just like you know, Apple has iTunes built in. It's sort of it's built into the platform, and you're just they're presented with all of these options and you can purchase the rent, etcetera. What's next? What else are you guys doing? Is there

a whole development slate? Uh, walk me through it. This is Rick. Yes, we are. We've been spending the last eighteen months actively developing projects. We have a slate right now of over fifteen VR movies in different stages. We're focusing on different genres, so certainly horror, thriller, action, sci fi, even comedy. Um, we're working with incredible filmmakers. Were really

excited to soon announce more details about that slate. But we have been heads down working on this for a long time and we are very much excited to start bringing more of these things to life. In terms of the scale of production, and I know that we're talking short form, I'm just curious, budget wise, can you ballpark this is VR something that's you know, exponentially more expensive than a typical shoot, or maybe equipment prices are reasonable.

Just curious to get a sense of that reality. It's not a hold on, let me let me start over. Um without getting into the specifics around our budgets. We are very responsible and how we're putting these together. I would say, you know, it's closer to the indie film world. And remember these are twenty minute movies, and so you know, for us, this is in our conversations with filmmakers early on, I think we really try and set the stage for

what this is like. You know, we have to be real about where the market is today and where it's going. And this is very much a creative outlet, right. This is very much a ace too to create something that's very different from everything else that you're working on. That's

sort of core to our our proposition to filmmakers. And I think what we find is that in pitching directors, um and and and talent across the board, there are definitely individuals out there that that pitch resonates right where it's it's it's they they want to get their hands into something new and innovate in a space where that hasn't been done before. I mean that was Robert Rodriguez a hundred percent. As soon as he learned that, you know, we have the ability to do this, he was all in.

And so I think luckily we we've had the opportunity to meet with many creators that have that that share that same mentality. And I'm also curious, how do you get a director the caliber of Robert Rodriguez to do something like this. Did he come to you saying, hey, I want to do VR or do you come to him just curious to get a sense of the genesis. Sure, I think it speaks to what Rick saying. You know, we've met a lot of film directors. I'd say there

is a fraction, not a small fraction. I'd say twenty. Those of those talent need to be doing something innovative. You know, Yes, they do their big studio movies, but in between time, they want to be pushing technology forward. They want to be pushing storytelling forward. So we flew down to Austin Um. It was while he was shooting shooting Alida, I think um And so we walked around the Alita set with him, We talked about VR. He brought up his son, Racer Max, who co wrote the

script with him, who's really big into VR. And I think he saw this as an opportunity to yes, develop new storytelling techniques with new technology, but also speak to a younger audience. That you know is into this new stuff, right, and so I think, as as a storyteller, you want to stay relevant to all audiences, are as many people as possible. And so we were down there, he really

understood what we were wanted to do pretty quickly. He understood the advantage of what our format was giving against a full three sixty video experience, and so he really blamed onto that. We said, you know, we want to make a twenty minute film. We really need stars in this because that's one of that's one of the promises to our audiences that we want to start, right, is like, let's get recognizable talent in signature roles um. And so you know, he shook his head and was like, okay,

I get it. And so we got on a plane and we came back to l a UM and within a couple of weeks we had a script and UM, Michelle Rodriguez wanted to be in it. And so obviously that came through Robert and he has his close collaborators that are in his orbit on a regular basis and he can go to them and trust them, and a lot of those people just like him, they want to be doing cool new stuff. UM and from there, we

you know, from there, we just it went forward. We ended up doing a test shoot to make sure that we could Robert could get all those shots that he wanted to and start to develop this film language with our camera system, and then we shot at at the

top of two. One last question. You guys were embedded at a so called traditional Hollywood company at st X. When you look out at the future of VR, do you see Hollywood position to continue the track record it has built up in film and television or do you think maybe it's not an either or that we're going to see sort of a new Hollywood emerge in terms of VR production. Well, I think I think it's gonna live next to it. Right. It's just like when we

were at Maker Studios. I think a lot of people when digital was coming up and short form was really big and there was a lot of funding going into it, people were staying our TV's dad, look at the you know, look at the ratings that are plummeting. Digital is gonna take over short form and that was never going to be the case, right, I think short forms sitting next to sits next to TV, which sits next to film six to six, next to theater and so I think

VR is just another iteration of telling stories. I think it will be complementary. I think, you know, now, we're working with established directors that have a voice. I think the Kubricks and the Spielberg's of VR are probably twelve years old, and they're growing up watching VR and playing VR, and they're gonna have They're gonna have a take that

is completely different and doesn't even exist today. So I think while we're waiting for those for those superstars to go to college and study UM or not go to college and start making these things out of high school, I think we're leaning on the people who can evoke the most emotion and tell the best stories, and I think it will just be a balance moving forward. Well, I'm looking forward to seeing how that future unfolds, and I'm sure you guys will be in the thick of it.

Best of luck and thanks for coming in, Thanks for having us, Thank you, and now a special bonus segment to this podcast episode. A recurring theme in my interview with the STX Surreal guys was how VR is a medium that will come of age with a younger generation. So I thought better did check in with their own

sense of the VR marketplace. Then my own eleven year old son, Max Wallenstein, is a fifth grader here in l a author of his own graphic novel, an accomplished Buku lele player, and champion of the school spelling be Thanks for fitting me into your busy schedule, Max, Thank you. Andy. Okay, just this once, for now, I'll let you call me Andy. We'll do without the daddy part. So you watch a lot of VR. We've done a lot of that. We've got an Oculus go and hone and go to some

of the location based VR stuff out there. But let's start with the limit, which I just talked about in this interview. What did you think of that? Um, it was really cool. It's nothing like I've really ever seen. It's not like you're watching a movie. Um, it's kind of like you're in the movie. It's yeah, you're part of it. You're a character in it, you're sort of the main character. And so you thought that was interesting. And do you think that movies have a place in

a true reality? Do I think movies have a place? Um? Yeah, movies, they'd be great, and virtual reality I think that it would be It's really cool. Because like you'll usually see movies like that, you've never seen that. It's, um it's like a big step from what it usually is. So that's that's cool. Okay. Well, like I said, we've got a device at home, how often would you say you use VR? UM? Well, I used to use it a lot when I got it, I was like, oh my god,

this is amazing. But now I've done it seven million times, so I use it once in a blue moon. So it's like the novelty is worn off. Yeah, yeah, I see. My theory is is that just isn't enough good content out there. Do you think if there was more you would probably use VR more often? Yeah? So the oculus UM we have is not the best. Um it doesn't have a lot of things, doesn't have a lot of like things you can down the things that I use

and watch. Um. So yeah, I think that in the future will have more stuff that I can use and will be better. Well what did you like? You said you like the limit? What else out there in VR do you enjoy? So I like that there's um Netflix because that's something I like and I watched, So so we should know that Netflix VR. You're not Netflix doesn't have VR content. You're able to just watch the usual Netflix but in a VR environment. So that's cool, but

that's not really what VR helmets are for. Yes, it's not like you're in the right the setting. It's not like The Limit. Now you've also done what's known as location based VR, which is you don't just watch VR and the helmet at home, you go to like a special place. What have you done on that front? Um,

So I gotta um dream escape, um explain what that is. Yeah, so it's like it's VR, but it's like it's like in a building as or and um, you can be in like different movies, like kind of like The Limit, and you can be with like, uh five other people and you're like sort of all at a mission movie and like one room, and it's not like a nauseous experiment that like like that your own one at home might be. It's like you're not like really seeing it. It's not like you're standing in the actual place. So

it's not it's like regularly standing. It's not. It's really I think it's better. Yeah, I I did it with you, and I know you've done it a number of times since then. Do you think that that kind of VR has more potential than the helmet stuff at home. UM. I think they both have a lot of potential. I think the helmet that you can use at home UM can always be updated and made better and have more options and more updates UM. And yeah, I think location

based it will also improve too over years. So do you think when you think, like five ten years out and you get older, that you will be watching say as much virtual reality as you do like movies or YouTube or Netflix UM as I do now? Yeah? Well no, no, I mean, do you do you think you'll do much more than you do now, because as you made clear, you don't watch much now because there's not much content

to watch. I think I'll probably do more because it's going to be more updated and more improved and you can do more things, and it's probably gonna be like, you know, like everyone's gonna be into it. It's going to be like right now, VR is like the biggest thing and it has to grow and more people use it. So yeah, the thing I think is going to help is if they make the helmets to the point where they're as light as glasses or not even helmets at all. That I think could be the big deal. What do

you think when you do you think that's possible? Yeah, I don't really. I don't really sort of care in that department of way size, right, Although you mentioned nausea sometimes a problem because I sometimes feel that good time. I don't feel naucha, but it's a problem for many people. So, um, I mean would you think that lighter, um how much

would help? Well? I don't think with nausea, but I think in general people don't necessarily like bulky equipment and that less of that, I think it becomes something that more people might be interested. Like thinking about three D glasses. Remember like that was hot for like two minutes for people for watching televisions, and you and I tried that and that market completely went away because people don't want to put three D glasses on in their house. Yeah

that was Yeah, that wasn't that amazing? Um that sort of wear it off? Yea. Hopefully VR will not end up where three DTV was. Well, Max, I thank you for sharing your insights. Uh, come back to the podcast anytime. Thank you. This has been another episode of Strictly Business. Tune in next week for an They're helping a scintillating conversation with media movers and shakers, and please make sure

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