Ben Silverman and Howard T. Owens: Building a Startup with Scale

nineties working at the William Morris Agency. Today they have big ambitions to build Propagate into a major player in the global content arena. They spent most of two thousand and eighteen putting building blocks in place thanks to the investment Propagate received from Rain Group. Here, Ben and Howard discussed the economic landscape for content, wrestling over writes with fires, and why their company is also in the talent management business.

And they also reflect on their past lives as network executives and just how much those jobs have changed. Ben Silverman and Howard Owns of Propagate Content. Thank you very much for stopping by and joining us today. Absolutely in the end, nice to be in the in the Variety studios where it all happens in Los Angeles. Um, you guys had a big two thousand eighteen, a lot of

things went down. You started the year with an investment from Rain Group, and then you turned around and bought Electus, Ben's previous company that he started in two thousand nine. And by the end of the year you had recruited Greg Lipstone, who had been running All three Media America and is a veteran of the unscripted and talent agency world. And Electus has also brought you a big position in the talent management company Artists First. So how does all

this activity set you up for two thousand nineteen? What are your big priorities for the year. Well, a lot of retreats, you know, as we build culture and integrate all the really incredible exacts across the companies. We love Peter Principato and the Artist First business. They are so impressive and have built an incredible organization and have amazing produced sial ability as well as a deep, deep roster

of brilliant storytellers and artists. And we love the name too, Artists First because we're very much artists driven in our philosophy and um, two thousand nineteen is the year we gotta, you know, really elevate it and make it all work.

We're not done in our acquisitions and ambitions for growth in terms of the inorganic, but we also want to now put the pedal of the metal and really turn on the dynamics that had been kind of frozen between artists first and um its ability to expand beyond because they had been in the sales process with Electus and so Howard and I are focused on continuing to up the premium content that we are making at scale for everyone from the History Channel to Netflix to Amazon, UM

to Apple to UM NBC, and we also are looking to grow our premium scripted business. We're currently in production on three big scripted series, Charmed, Jane the Virgin going into its final year, and Blood and Treasure coming on CBS, as well as a myriad of really great high end development and we're looking to just grow all those businesses. Were maybe build out our unscripted franchises and really um you know, get back to the business of creating UM

you know, culture changing content. And you saw in January with the launch a Mass Singer and and Tighten Games. You know, those still the way and not only that, those are still the shows that can move the needle the fastest for big outlets and big Netford high concept unscripted you still see. I mean, I know that was one of the things that you guys both major you know, major names on and there's been a lot of talk about, you know, has that moment passed? Can anything breakthrough? And

clearly it can and it's all about originality. We have an amazing h show at Fox that we're not allowed to announce yet, but go ahead, they won't mind, you know that we're in production on great Talent Auspices and uh and it's one that Howard and I have believed in for literally fifteen years, you know, kind of since we started in this industry and built kind of the reality business, you know, on the heels of the work we did William Morris and Revel with the little show

called Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? Can you believe it's been twenty years, you know, it's unbelievable and it's still on the air, still on the air. But in the wave of all of that, you know, there was a moment and you you actually chronicled it, you know, where if it had an accent, you know, we were involved in its its translation to America and then the world, and I think the areas that we have real kind of continued first mover and separation from our competition is

we're super internationally oriented. We invested in a big international company as well, called it Incomdo out of France. We have a partnership in Brazil with Formata, and we are growing our international UM platform. Were in production on Spanish language series, on French series. We had the November thirteenth documentary series on Netflix this summer with the Not Day Brothers Indian series and based on a format that's about

to be made in India going in production. I just heard this morning I sighting in Brazil as well the second season in Portuguese. So what you know is for like Netflix or for streaming there for all different kinds

of outlets. So the Indian one is for Amazon, the French one was for net Likes, the Spanish language one is for Netflix, and the Brazilian one was for Brazilian broadcast television actually, And so we're scaling our international and coupled with that, we're going to be accelerating the growth for artists first internationally and that model of UM talent lead UH production orientation we believe in completely and UM and so that's another element as well as all the

i P that we're able to drive out of the global markets, you know, just like Jane the Virgin and Ugly Betty before that. We're from Colombia and Venezuela. We have a string of great new i P in development, including Strong Girl UM with CBS and CW based on the hip hot Korean format, and we continue to kind of identify I think the best of the international market for translation, but also as we did in selling our

shows internationally, are doing it in reverse. But the key answer to your you know question is in acquiring Electus Notional, the big breakfast franchise which makes Adam Ruins everything and artists first, as well as a minority stake in Authentic, the management company in New York, which hasn't been reported on. We want to integrate these into a you know, creative led,

talent led global studio model for the future. How we can control rights and battle to UM you know, retain as much as possible in a world of accelerated vertical integration remains the biggest challenge UM, and we're looking at ways to do that and to accelerate those opportunities you know, we have used advertisers a great deal in the kind of previous decade to to align with around that, and we're still wide open to and interested in figuring out how they come back to the table in terms of

bringing them in as financing partners from the get go. The shore co producers are finance and they are clamoring because for re entry into a system that's kind of been closing them out on in Netflix, Apple and Amazon's ecosystems where they're not invited or welcome at the table,

and so we think there's opportunity there as well. And with Greg lipstones arrival, you know, having another senior level executive to support Howard and I and help really you know, run the run the day to day operations while we're

building it out. And also the brilliant executives we've brought in from Electus Drew Buckley who's done a great job at Electus and is now part of the organization also and seeing Matthew and then the incredible capacity of the executives inside um artists first, you know, we don't just think of them as managers. We think of them as

executive talent. And and Dobbins and David Gardner and Joel's Zaidak and Peter Principato across the board, you know, have such deep relationships, access and insight into the industry, and that's something we're excited to unlock more than they're kind of quotitian, you know, business of the generation before in the management side, the percentage business represented talent exactly. Um. Let me I ask all the producers that I talked to these days this question. Clearly, the the you know,

the business models and the industry are are changing seismically. YouTube. We're both so far ahead of how the business was changing, you know, going on twenty years ago. But now it really feels like it is becoming a business of upfront money as opposed to back in success. How does that change the way you guys go about doing your business. Is television becoming a cost plus business for producers making money independent producers such a yourselves? Yeah, I mean, you know,

obviously because of the trend. We want to take advantage

of that trend. You know, we want to sell series and get multiple seasons and get as much um, you know, upfront and um as much revenue and money as possible in the series that we're committed to in selling, but I think our artists first, our entry, our relationships with artists first, and our management talent relationships as well as our international production platforms as well as our ability to work with brands and advertisers are all different ways that

we're looking to, as we like to say, form a quicker and more efficient path to production, but also opportunities to create different in emerging business models, you know, on

one level and on a big macro level. For us, we've always believed in international you know, as our conversation is already UM alluded to UM, but we believe there's an opportunity to be making programs globally around the world, and as part of that, there are rights positions and not you know in countries that we're dealing with has been referenced, you know, Brazil, where we're in business with

a broadcaster. UM. There are still businesses that rely on co production models, and still businesses that rely on partnerships where there are ownership opportunities and where they're legally regulated to force ownership onto the independent sector, something that we think should happen in America, you know, as I wouldn't hold your breath in this political environment, you never know.

Usually you never know. I'm with you, just because of the hatred he has for all of the big malforms and the fact that he doesn't feel his voice gets hurt as the president. You know that. I think it's actually shocking that under a republican regime you could potentially see that emerge. But regardless, there is a moment in time.

I think with the conversation ongoing about the consolidation now affecting what consumers see and the clear directive of all these media platforms to kind of come out with one version of a conversation, it is going to be a moment where we need to go backwards and create independent

sector and independent voice again. And we we believe in that from the success of how content can develop and arrive and connect with an audience that it can't just all be two edited babies fed from the same machinery companies that are going to control. And it's so dramatically different.

In the UK were literally by law there is there's very strict rules like the United States had thirty We were as agents in helping develop path strategy back twenty plus years ago to get a quota of percent fed through the independent sector where they were owning the rights.

Part of it is based on the fact that the BBC was funded by the government and the net result of it was though that those companies became so successful and export market developed because they cared about every penny more than a large conglomerate wood holding onto multiple rights

that it may not exploit. And then those companies drove value on the alternative investment market, which is you know, kind of the nas deck of London, and billions of dollars of wealthware created, jobs were built and there's a real narrative to that that has worked in other markets. So we continue to invest in those markets as well, because there are places where the rights disposition is better suited for producers. But I think, to answer your question directly,

it's requiring us to think a little differently. It's requiring us Howard said that creativity around business models. Yes, but we need to get more volume on one hand, because it's the only way that it can equal what we're losing on the back end. And we still need to play the game for the big hits, and we need to take risk upfront, spend more money on development, build bigger packages, in house so that we can leverage the

marketplace to retain rights where we can. Do you find I mean the sense, my sense is that it's it's becoming a very monolithic business. And you go into Netflix, and you go into CBS, you going to NBC Universal and they say, great, we'd like that. We'll pay you. We'll pay you this, and we'll pay you can take your or on top and we'll take everything. But is there more negotiating room if you if you walk in the door with I P well, it really want I was gonna actually uh then I played phone tag on

the way over here. So I'm on the way over here. I'm on the phone with the UK partner who's in production on a series for us in the UK making here right, and so it's a great format. It's on broadcast network here and he got a multi episode order and it's a big priority for us to show. So we're obviously taking out our big new projects now at the top of the year. We've been working and developing and packaging and doing all that and so on the

big project that one of the big ones that we have. Um, we have a UK in a French partner who want are desperate to take it out and I you know, we need to figure out it's probably these are ones broadcast and ones not. We need to figure out whether we want to. Traditionally, five years ago, we would of course had them go at the same time, because if they sold it in France or if they sold them in the UK, that would be better for us across

the board. Now, if we want a Netflix or an Amazon purchase, we may not want those rights off the table, right So that definitely change the way we're thinking. Doesn't mean we won't do it though, But if you have the right leverage, our ability or partnership approach to the network, you can still retain rights. And the studios are still trying to monit ties rights all the way down the revenue stream. We make a lot of programming for the c W and CBS studios and Warner Brothers make their

money off the network. That's why they keep it in business and off the shows and exploiting it off of the c W and c W made a really strong Netflix deal that also benefits studio partners and therefore it's rights participants and the most money um most people have made is being a participant on a studio's exploitation of a big time broadcast show that is definitely under threat, but you would still rather be participating in the big bang theory than owning, you know, a big Netflix, Apple

premium show. And we're just trying to have the right mix of those shows. Will there be a place that actually exploits those We just saw a hundred plus million dollars being spent on the Friend renewal twenty plus years off after it exited its primary distribution. And you know, as producers of the Office, I was gonna say, how fast did you called tent sorrendos. It's less ted sorrendous than the clear reality that that show has found in the Office has found a new audience, has grown in

its importance not only to Netflix but to Comcast. Over time after it's gotten off the air, it's found a younger you generate more like, yeah, more passionate audience even than when it was on air, and has been reported is the number one show on Netflix. And so when that contract is up, I've got to assume Apple, Amazon, Comcast itself, you know, are going to want to get those rights and use them for their own services. Now, how transparent will those transactions be and how will those

um questions be viewed? And is self dealing now something that's accepted where it wasn't before. You know, those are all things that as participants we have to really look at closely and ensure that we're being protected in that process. So many, so many moving parts there does does the coming together of Disney Fox and Disney's goal of launching uh, not only the Disney Plus service, but a suite of services? Does that? Is that energizing or does that give you pause? Oh?

My god, here's another vertically integrated walled garden that Disney is going to want to do so much of the programming all themselves so that they can own every stitch of it. We hope they all want to kill each other as as long as as long as they're as able to sustain and support the investment, which Bob Iger has said he will, which the Burke is that he will, which clearly testsorad Us and Rehastings have said they will, and um, then we want them in the strong is

shape to be able to invest at scale. Now, will we be able to monetize those the same way? It's unclear because we haven't yet seen it launched. The merger hasn't even formally been uh completed, so it's not they're not like kind of telegraphing it out. But I imagine if you have the right compelling content, they will be bidding against each other to to ensure that that content is on their service and that they're going to then drive the subscription revenue that will make it worthwhile for

them to invest against that content. And as new players enter the market, you see business models change and you see people taking risks. As Ben said, competition breeds um opportunity. And we still like broadcast television a ton, and we still like cable telling. You know, these things haven't yet fallen off the cliff. It's clearly going down every year

in terms of absolute ratings. But um, the moment right now is still the past and in the future, I think we're anticipating that this future arrives quicker and quicker and Netflix kind of shifting how it does deals. Was it, you know, rude awakening I think for many people in the business. Yeah, you reversing what their initial structures were. You guys, I have to ask you, you guys were very early in on Apple. You did one of their

first original shows, Planet of the Apps. Do you have a sense of what's going on there when we're gonna see when we're going to see something official from them on what well what their video division has been cooking up for the last eighteen months. They're making bets and I think that they obviously need to figure out their

distribution strategy. Anybody killed us some Plant of the Apps because they didn't have it in place, you know, and and that was really disappointing for us because it's still one of the shows that we made that which is, yeah, that's so qualitative. But if you build it in the middle of the artist and no one sees it doesn't matter. Do you own that show? Do you do you with the Apple who controls its exploitation? Unfortunately for us, because otherwise you would be seeing it all over all over

the world with UH with Apple among others. Though it needs to play out like it's not clear yet. You know, they're obviously investing in development and executives, but it's not yet a transparent strategy. It's not something that is you bring them content, they're explaining to you how they're going to exploit or distribute it. I think they get away with a lot with the halo of the brand having some kind of equity in our community, not just not

just in the technology tech community. Um, but I'm and Howard are really excited that Disney Comcast, the traditional guys who speak our language, who work in our business, are are going to be inside the inside the same race. Because I was worried for a while they were just absconding and now they're going time out. We're going to do this too. Yeah. Yeah, Now it's a two nineteen should be. It'll be very interesting to see, you know,

how the landscape has changed. Just in and I just taking something like Mary Poppins, which my children discovered through the Linen Manuel version. And then you're back at home and we're buying and ordering the Dick van Dyke version, and you know that's a pretty valuable uh property, you know, and you start to think, okay, and now if you close it in and for one fee instead of having to buy it twice, which we did over the holidays, you could be getting it all. Um, we'll be paying

for that, you know, and as a family. And so there's a lot and you can't you know, discount Star Wars and other things and with Universal and NBC and Comcast, and there's some amazing assets. And then you know, I wouldn't undercut the value and the opportunities with Showtime and CBS all Access. You know, even the small players have audience and relationship and dynamic and you know they're Let's talk about the talent representation business because there's been a

lot of activity lions Gate about three arts. You guys are now the majority owner of Artists First. Um, you know that Anne of the US says a partnership with Paramount and Lorraine Jobs as an investor. Endeavor's got silver Lake and they're doing a production company. Paul Lee's working for CIA trying to you know, produce package backed by TPG. You know. So it's all all the mrc as overall deals with U t A and in three sixty you know, so yeah, there's a there's a lot of coming together here.

But do you for Artists first? Was there is there just the the pure traditional representation business? Is that still a business? Is that is that something that gives you

a nice foundation? Completely? Like the value of talent in this next iteration is not going down, it's going up, and you've seen it in some of the mega deals that some of the platforms are making to secure talented Key Barris, who is represented by Artists First UM and so so the actual value proposition for these brilliant creators has gone up in terms of how they participate and

are compensated. So we completely believe in that and also how they can be unlocked into these new businesses, you know, whether it's Kate Hudson doing Letica, you know, or whatever.

Those kind of partnerships are in brand building. I think we've also witnessed the past ten fifteen years this kind of age of celebrity is entrepreneur and so three sixty approach exactly to these really connective talent and celebrities who actually have this direct consumer relationship that's opened up through social media and active Instagram and conversation of their consumer and audience and fans and all of that is super interesting to us inside the talent business, as the talent

business separate from the talent business as a place to build productions and content. How did the Rain relationship come about? Um, we knew Joe Ravage a very long time and he had pursued doing a deal with me for years and after Howard had made do you want to talk about the and he came in, you know first, and UM I had had we have had a long relationship with UM, you know, Nancy and Paul team, and so they came

in and Ben consulted me through that process. And that was in two thiften when you were launching the company. Partnered with any network. I partnered with Any Networks and UM thankfully had my concibiliary and mentor. UM advised me through that process. But I had thought of the time, as did been, that it was smart to have a distribution partner. It was smart to have a partner who

was in the UM you know, content distribution game. Who needs producers, creative producers in deeds you know, UM great, I p and that was a real so that that was the first kind of peg of the building of the company and UM as as Ben joined formally and came in, we we UM. We had proved to ANY pretty quickly that we were a growth opportunity for them, you know, and they at the time we're investing in in addition to advice, we're investing in a lot of

different creative producers in different types of businesses. Ours. I think transcended pretty quickly, and um, with that, they wanted to grow and we had often you know, thought that

that was just the beginning. And I think Ben had been hit on by a lot of people to begin organizations, you know, a lot of big multimedia international UH media players had been pursuing Ben, and I think that, um, my relationship with him, I think that he saw a friend and familiar believer in the business and how we

want to grow it. And Ben, you know, you talked about Rain because that was really Joe and Ben had had a longstanding relationship and as much as we did want to grow, we were not pursuing once you joined us, we were not pursuing opportunities. We were kind of growing and organically and the business was sustaining and quickly you know, evolving. UM I think that Rain proved to us to be long term players versus traditional kind of bankers, you know,

looking tom to come in and exploit an opportunity. I think they're they're long term growth players, and we look at this as an opportunity to grow a long term business and something that you know, we can believe in and stay a part of and grow and with, you know, the people who work for us and even you know, our children, you know, to be part of it. And I think Rain has that kind of similar sensibility. They

believe in content. Yeah, and clearly by way that where they have parked some of their money with I Magine Magin and Matt and Trey, Matt Parker and Trip, Trey Parker and Matt Stone and so had a long standing relationship and was actually sitting down with Joe prior and concurrently to Howard setting up to talk about potentially trying to buy elect this from I see, which didn't want to sell at the time, and I realized I wanted to exit, to go do something bigger and a scale

with more support, and was talking to Joe about all the various players who were chasing me at that time and UM and through that process He's like, well, we want to do this. You know, we've now started primary investments and a fund beyond our previous UM investment banking role, marching banking role, and Joe Rabbage, Jeff sign, Eric Hodge, Heather Stein in the people we met there were all just so intelligent and great. We love that they were

so internationally oriented themselves. They have LPs from all over the world, from Mobable Law in Abu Dhabi to WPP in New York and London, and offices all over the world as well, with people who are not only supporting our business but are actually out there every day thinking about it as as investors in the business. And they, as Howard said, really get the business. This wasn't going to a company that its assets or entires or or

um you know, or non media or content related. These are people who knew intimately the way that our business operated, and their philosophy around this is there's this arms race going on and you guys are bullet makers. Imagines a bullet maker, and Matt and Trey are bullet makers, and if and if we can thrive, you know, there's going

to be a need for the product you create. And what was also great is the senior management hitting any when we had come in, knew that we were going to bring in another partner, and so having to minority investors is so different than the way Howard and I had worked previously, where we basically had majority owners like this, you know, and with Shine, you know, being kind of more owned than than invested on a certain level. And this now kind of fully liberated us to be in

charge of our own destiny. And as Joe, Jeff and Eric said to us so many times, like this is you need to do this now, like this is your moment to go build this and run it on your own and see it through and build something up scale. And they they were the ones who approached us on electists, they said, because I didn't want to feel like we were going after it for some vanity or to kind of,

you know, close off some story. You know, they really were the ones coming us saying, hey, they're in this process, and I think there may be a moment where we can enter this process. And you guys would say that I had to kind of been I said Ben, you know, because again he was a little he had done the electist thing, right. I mean, that's what I feel like. It was like someone, you know, do I need to

go back to that. I thought that Ben knew that business better than anyone, and if anyone could drive drive value out of it, it was you know Ben, and our team is a Andy still an investor, Yeah they are.

And I will just go back and say it help that a Andy and Rain had a great rapport Nancy and Joe served together on the vice board, the vice board, and they had a real familiarity and David Glamville Smith who's the CEO, and Paul Boucherry the CEO, where people we had worked with forever, and Paul had done all that i TV roll up and knew our in our business inside and out world and so so there were such a shorthand between Paul Digger Us and UH and

the Rain team. Both sets are minority investors in the business and both are super supportive of the business um, but neither one can trump the other. So it's really great to have people who are honest, and we're thrilled that our board is comprised of the senior leadership at

those companies. To having Paul, Digger, Eric and Joe on our board is also unlocked so much intellectual power, right plus opportunities that I'm sure you know and has quite has very big international reach and it all seems to feed into what you're trying to do completely. And so when they have networks overseas and they domestically, they need hits, you know, and hopefully we are hit makers. What's I didn't realize just how much international activity you have going on.

What is the hardest thing about producing a show outside of the US is it? Is it navigating the local orting to be there, getting on a plane every every other day, right part of well, um, you know, it's not as hard making them. For Netflix and other US based companies that are entering international markets, it is, um sometimes a little tricker, trickier, you know, knowing how format delivery, UM act break down and just some of this stuff

that works inside the mechanics. But a show is a show, you know, it's not It's not that far off from how we do it here. You know, cash flow issues, payment issues, you know, things like that require local partners.

And that's why everything we've ever done The Naughty Brothers are French, and we've brought in a brilliant French producer to work under us on that, a woman named Marie and uh, and what we're doing in Mexico for Netflix involves Mexican production partners, you know, and so those kind of and what we're doing in France involves people that

we've both worked with over twenty years. Yeah, these are people internationally oriented, like Eduard Debazine ran Europa Corp. And was a producer on English language global shows out of France and addition to local French movies. I think we believe there's great opportunity unlock French and German and Francophone and Portrague ease and talent as well. And I think

that's a new migration. If before Howard and I looked to the international market for I p to replicate and remake here that could then travel back around the world, now we're also looking for the voices and the talent that can work on global content. And I think you're seeing more and more the strength of the founder creators and writers who are representative artists first are equal to the talent that is inside Hollywood m I think that

has very much with the internationalizations. It opened up the eyes and you think about how you know Pada, and you think about you know, you think about all these shows. People want the creators of those shows, uh creating other shows you know. So, um so that's that's something we're excited about unlocking because we have a lot of those relationships. Um you both had, at various times had stints as

executives in more traditional television companies. It feel like, you know, many centuries ago in some ways, when you think about how much has changed. But what would you say for both of you? How are you were at National Geographic Television, ven you were at NBC, what would you what? What would you say that your experience at those companies, running those at a high level? What did you learn not to do when you went into your entrepreneurial modes. I mean,

I feel like I learned a ton. You know, you're inside that you're inside the factory, you're inside the system, and as an agent and as some and then as a producer selling to those people and wanting to, you know, make sure that they loved your product and wanted to make sure that they positioned it at the right night, and wanted to make sure they marketed coming out of the right show and all those things. But not really knowing, you know, until you're in there. How it gets down.

The first thing I would say is I did know a lot of it, Like I knew more than I thought. When I came into Natchie, I'm like, oh, this is actually how I thought it would work. Um, there weren't a ton of sur rises, but I think you know, Um, what I saw in Nago was the value of a brand, a global brand like national geographic channels that could launch shows day and date in the United States, in Germany, in you name it right. You know, it's a complete

global channel. And I thought the opportunity to tap tap into global stories. I mean, I think when I was at Nagio, that was when UM, you know, Netflix was gaining prominence and you could see international global creators creating content that UM, you know, was popular not only the America, but in Germany and other places simultaneously. UM, you know me personally there. I also, you know, we always had

a love for documentary storytelling UM. One of the first shows that we UM we produced coming out of UM starting Reaveli, was the nine eleven documentary with the naw Day Brothers and UM having always been a fan of it but not having done a ton of it at Reabeli when the market was a little more commercial, UM format driven, UM, I got a chance to work with some of the best documentary filmmakers and creators tell stories about natural history, tell stories about UM things that science

and UM that I was totally passionate about. So in that regard, I'm not sure that's the question has but that's kind of what I really enjoyed UM and what I took with me, you know, leaving that GM and I think taking out of those organizations in applying it into an entrepreneurial environment. One of the key elements is understand your buyer, you know, and that total of knowledge we have around their issues, their needs and their accounting, you know, very simple things that are kind of behind

the curtain to most suppliers and producers. And how a broadcaster or a studio does its accounting, does its budgeting, does it assignments stuff? You know, all of those things help us be better sellers and know where we can kind of position something for the long haul for a partner. It's one of the reasons that I had such a shorthand with Mark Petowitz at the CW because I recognized how his ad sales matrix worked. I knew the importance

of that Netflix partnership. I knew that his studios were actually his bosses and you know, and ways in which you can help navigate that and deliver on that is is something that we brought to our entrepreneurial side and UM, and then I think there's also ways in which you can call bullshit on somebody sitting in the other seat, because you know that's actually not the way it is, and no, you do have pressure to do this, and

we can kind of shortcut a lot. Having been in those jobs and recognizing both the needs, the challenges and the lies that are sometimes told to be told told to you on the outside, we were always kind of we were always very prepared in when we were going to sell a show and produce a show for network. We knew the network. I will say, as a buyer and sitting in the chair, it's shocking how many people come and pitch you who've never watched your channel, who

are bringing you something. And so I think part of it, think, I think, and I think part of what's challenge like we don't quite understand everything going on at Netflix, we don't quite understand everything going on in some of these other new emerging platforms because they don't know, you know. And that's and that's part of it in how you think about something or anticipate, you know, where somebody will

buy or um support your content. It's hard when they don't actually have those answers themselves, and they're trying to figure it out as they go. Anyway, as show by show is it where. Yeah, is there anything out there? I know this is a tough question, but I'm gonna throw it out anyway. Is there anything out there that would entice either of you to go back to a traditional media company, to run a traditional channel or a studio or do you just love being entrepreneurs from the

hit list list? Um, I think there, Like I wish when I was at NBC it had been Comcast who owned NBC and not an NBC built for sale. Um, I think that there are some opportunities to really invest a ton in content that are appealing. Like it frustrates us a lot that ideas we know will work. I have to sometimes hit a wall that you know, we're not in control of opening. Um. That being said, neither Howard or I want to go uh work in that

kind of rigorous, you know, regimented, closed environment. There's something so liberating that we can wake up in the morning and talk about a documentary, a drama series of French production a and now we're show you know, and and able to kind of go wherever your creativity and ambition takes you. Or in the talent business, you know, most of those conglomerates, it's got scared about being in the talent business, you know. So those are all things that

are liberating on our side. And I don't think either of us would want to have to be inside one of those organizations. I know I would never do it again, but both of our But you raise a great point. Both of our organizations got huge cash infusions after we left. Nice to have that, I hear you wonderful. Thank you both so much for your time and talking through this is really interesting and good luck to you in twenty We'll check in with you maybe halfway through the year.

We'll see how things are going to do. Would thank you, thank you for It's really great to see Cynthia, thank you so much. Thanks Howard, thanks for listening. Be sure to tune in next week for another episode of Strictly Business. M