Hello, and welcome to Variety Strictly Business podcast. I'm Chris Willman, Senior music writer in chief music critic Variety. I'm excited to talk with our guest today, c MT s Leslie Fran, who a general consensus I think we can say is one of the most important executives in the Nashville music industry. That's not just for what she accomplish this for CMT, which is a lot, for what she brings as an
agiment of change in her extracurricular activities as well. We're co founding a couple of organizations that deal with gender and racial diversity and country music to being a force in the Recording Academy and being the just now newly reelected governor of the Academy's Nashville chapter board CMT, where she's been a top executive for eleven years now. She's
the senior vice president of Music IT Talent. That means she's a producer or executive producer on the network's Temple Music specials and series like the c MT Awards, c MTRs, The Year Samet Crossroads, and the Weekend Top Point of Count that show, and she also oversees all musical integration within the brand means not just the original programming on the cable channel, but the CMT dot com website and
music video airplay on digital platforms. If you've ever read an article on women in country music in the last ten years or so, I know you've seen Leslie's name, even if you read nothing else about Nashville when last year at this time Billboard named her executive a beer unless I was quoted as saying she wants to make country music a quote big, beautiful tent for all underrepresented voices. Unquote.
That's a tall order. As you may know if you read about controversies this have risen over lack of diversity and country. But Leslie has found that a couple of organizations that have been important in the space of raising awareness for how the industry can do better, including changed the Conversation which deals with women in country and Nashville music quality, just focused on what needs to be done
to increase the representation of people of color and country. Now, I don't want to make it sound like Leslie works on these issues only after hour, because she brings a
lot of that focus to the world of CMT. Of course, at CMT in she started up next Women of Country, an initiative design to give up and coming final artists of platform that they often don't get anywhere else, and then two years ago she spearheaded a CMT Patual Play initiative which guarantees that women will get at least representation and CMT S music programming. I'm Chris Willman, your host for this episode. We'll be right back after this break. This is Chris Willman a variety and I'm back with
CMT S Leslie Fran. Thank you so much, Chris. I'm actually you can't see me, but I'm blushing from that incredible introduction. Thank you. Oh gosh, my pleasure. Always good to talk with you in dribs and drabs as I have in the past. I'm glad we get to go a little more in depth today. Prior to which is
when you moved to Nashville and joined CMT. Of course, your entire career up to that point was spent in the alternative album oriented rock formats, and you were even nicknamed, as I've read it, the first Lady of modern rock. I don't know where that came from, but it's interesting. A lot of people don't know I had a former life in radio. That was my radio is my first love. Is kind of being a shy kid listening to the radio, you know, growing up, and that was my form of entertainment.
But radio was my first love. I did a few years in Top forty and then album like you said, album oriented rock, and then alternative for many years in Atlanta and New York. Well then in um the station you were at New York with Mainfield suddenly changed formats,
as happens every week in this business. And and you went into television unexpectedly, and I don't want to say you never looked back that uh, it's gone so well for you at CMT, and uh, Brian Phillips, who used work within radio, had become the chief of CMT, and he says, come to Nashville and new country music. And you're from Alabama, so maybe moving to the South again was not a big stretch, but country music might have
been for you. So, um, were you like, see, I don't know if that's for me or yeah, sure, country music that seems natural, even though I've just been playing you know, Nirvana for the last twenty years. It's very interesting that my probably the last two years in New York. Maybe the last year in New York, a couple of label reps that were friends of mine took me to a couple of concerts, country concerts, and you know, pop
country just was not in my sphere. I really. I knew more about the classics and you know, a lot of Americana artist I loved, like Lyle love it, but I didn't really know a lot about contemporary country. And people took me to shows like I saw Keith Urban and I was like, wow, this is kind of a rock show. And I saw Brad Paisley and Miranda Lambert and it started opening up my my world. But I did not know in a lot about the format or
the artist. So when I when Brian, you know, who was my mentor and we had worked together at ninety X for many years, offered me the job to take you know, take over the music at CMT, I said yes without even thinking about it. So I moved here. Absolutely loved Nashville, and you know, the Nashville community of people, as you know, Chris, they're so friendly and you know they welcome you with open arms. But I really put
my head down that first year. You know, I went to a ton of concerts and studied the artist and you know, also studied the format, and to be honest with you, I needed to learn the job as well. So for the first year I really put my head down. I set out to meet a whole new set of people or in the music, and then going from radio to television, honestly learned the job. So I feel like it was such a learning experience because this format works so differently than pop and rock, you know, and now
I'm you know, now a minute, I love it. Yeah, what's the biggest difference for how it works? I mean, I know, like playlist in a radio are very slow moving, but in television maybe you don't have to deal with that so much. A lot of it was about touring. At that time, you know, ten eleven years ago, it was very hard to get on a tour unless you had a song on the radio. And guess who that excluded women? And then honestly, the way the chart works and and how the whole you know, the heart whole
chart system works. But the one thing that that I did learn coming out of that experience was lack of support for female artists. But I will say that, you know, hopefully that is changing. Especially with you know, some of the initiatives that we started, but that was the biggest difference. I do think that there's a loyal fan base, more loyal than any other genre, which I learned. I also learned that fans go to concerts and they're there for
the opening act. I remember going to see Eric Church and you know, there's a whole family sitting behind me, and I was like they were there from the very minute the first act was there. And I never experienced that in a lot of a of shows that I went to. Well, this may be a loaded question, but how much has changed you've You've it's been eight years since Next Women of Country started, Um, I know a lot of women who uh we're part of that program
has broken out in a big way. Like, you know, Marion Morris was in the program at one point, Jelcie Ballerini, Carley Pierce, who's kind of finally getting her do with number one songs, Uh, Gabby Barrett was a Next Woman
of a Country graduate. Um. And yet so there's all these real success stories and yet looking at the overall picture of women a Country, Uh, you know, we know Dr Jada E. Watson has run a lot of data on the radio charts, and it seems like it's as bad as it was then when you really go down to what percentage of the overall UM format women have in radio? And uh, and you know this program you started a few years ago, Equal Play One Tea where you devoted um at least pledged to devote at least
of all airplanes, m c MT and its platforms to women. Um, it's not like a radio has just come along and go, oh, what a great idea. You know, they won't even pledge ten percent, you know, and it seems like it's it's down to five percent of times when we look at Dr Watson's data. So, uh, what's your feeling, what's changed
and what happen't for women? Since this has been a controversy for so long, though, I think the positive changes that I've seen is that when we first started next Women of Country and really pledged to support and expose these female artists, we've seen more women get signed to record labels and more women get signed to publishing companies.
And the other really the other aspect was women supporting women because remember a lot of female artists were taught there's only one slot, so We wanted to make sure that female artists were supporting each other on social media and talking about each other, because a win for one was a win for all. And I know that I've said that many times, but it's true. Unfortunately, we have seen years where the percentages have gone down, and that's when we looked at it and said, you know, we
can't control what rest your radio does. We can't control with streaming services do. What we can control is what CMT does. And that's really what precipitated CEMT Equal Play because we looked at our hour by hours, you know, at CMT in the morning and then CMT Music, which is our twenty four hour video channel, and we started another twenty four hour video channel on Pluto TV, which is owned by Paramount before Viacom CBS. And what's happened is that we see that country music index is so
high on especially Pluto TV. So fifty fifty parody of male female videos every single hour, ratings haven't gone down. And now with you know, a nod towards diversity and making sure that we have diverse voices in those hours, but really changing it to fifty five was a bold move and quite honestly, it's the ratings haven't gone down and we've been able to expose that many more women,
whether they're signed or unsigned. You know, we do have slots for independent artists as well on all of our franchises. That's great. I want to ask you more about Plato TV in a minute, UM, before I do. UM. Besides
the gender frent, there's the racial disparity fronts. Unfortunately, we have to deal with the multiple issues that come up in country and there actually been a lot of black artists doing really well on radio recently, UM and in the wider community of how people experience country and I think of Jimmy Allen and the Breeland who I know is a friend of yours. UM and uh. But it's almost this radio. I was saying, hey, we don't have a problem with people of color, after all, this format
just just female people of color. And so we have the uh, you know, the Mickey guidance of the world, who see them like your stars if kind of you you're out there in the mainstream and not really part of country radio and uh and not and you're experiencing things through award shows and U mass media presence. UM. But the Airplane hasn't been there, but clearly Mickey Guyden is a favorite of cmt UM. But does it feel like kind of uh, black Women is really the last
frontier in this format for some reason. You know, it's interesting me and in a lot of people in town will tell you this because we all remember when she sort of made her debut at CRS Country Radio seminar, you know, ten years ago when UMG does there huge showcase at the Rheman and she came out on that stage and got a standing ovation. Now remember the people in that audience are all radio people, and she still wasn't supported and that first single, you know, to me
was was a smash. Now, I don't know what happened. I don't know you know, what the research said or didn't say, but I can tell you that my radio ears said song as a smash. So she's really been largely ignored at Trestal Radio. And then she goes back again, you know, last year and gets another standing ovation, you know, singing black like me. But to me, she has arguably one of the best voices, not just in country music
but justin music. And the fact that she's been embraced by you know, the super Bowl, to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and she can't get played on trestal radio. That is a huge question mark in my mind for someone who's held her head up and you know, became the voice of everything over the last several years. She deserves to be supported. She's talented. Well, continuing on subject to women just for a minute, because it's a rich subject, it is. We could go on all day
about it. Yeah, I'm just standing, why do you think occasionally someone breaks through and others like Mickey don't and uh, you know, it seems like radio has not been that interested in Mickey Guitan and Casey Musgraves, who is basically, you know, one of the most recognizable stars in any format at this point. And on CMT these people are stars, and in the mass media there's stars um and then
occasionally someone breaks through. It I've been inested like why Landy Wilson, who I like a lot, has broken through and had a number one record And it's sort of I don't know, you know, I think radio sometimes uses that to say, hey, we're not we're not prejudiced because you know, we gave this person a number one record and that gives us like a free ride for another
eight months. Um, but I'm I'm wondering, you know, is there something they're looking for out of women that they're not getting or or is there like real bus and prejudice there? And again this isn't you know obviously, I know we're talking about terrestrial radio, but a lot of my friends are at radio program radio stations. A lot of them have their hands tied because they're overseeing, you know, multiple radio stations and can't make decisions in their own market.
But the Casey Musgrave story is one of the most perplexing stories ever because if you are in radio, you should jumping on anything pop culture. The fact that she won all of those Grammys and was still not supported. And I can say the same thing about Chris Stapleton in a few minutes, but uh, for someone who had a classic country album and was not supported, there's no answer. There's absolutely no answer. So she went out on her own and she has a career without radio and will
always have a career without radio. But the fact that Kasey Musgraves, who by the way, is in a league of her own and took the format globally and is not supported. I mean, this is how you're gonna get me all worked up. Um. I think for Laney, she's listen, Laney is straight down the middle country. And I think again, right now, the fans and and radio are seeing that there's a huge appetite for authenticity and for and for mainstream country. And I think timing wise, it's been great
for Landy Wilson. She's so talented and you know, we're all happy that she's having this moment and I think she's gonna end up being our next superstar. Yeah. Yeah, just seems like there's there's maybe a more strict litmus tests that women have to pass than men, all of them. I think that, you know, and again, and I love I have so many favorite male artists, But to me, the women are making the most interesting music right now.
And for for radio, I think that radio wins when there's a great balance, and that's balance of sound and balance of gender. So where are the women? You know, I always say that we're in fear of erasing female voices.
So if you hear eight male voices in a row and then you hear female, guess what, it's going to be a disruptor because you're training the listeners not to hear female voices, and that to me, is a detriment to the format, and it's really bothersome for the future of the format because women, to me, were the backbone of this format with Loretta and Dolly and and everyone else. So the future of the format to me is in jeopardy by racing you know, females and their point of
view to the audience. And it's interesting because even some of the superstars like Miranda don't get a break at country radio either. Hm. There have been many Miranda songs that haven't gone to number one that should have gone to number one. Hint, hint than the latest one. I think you know, listen. There are alternate ways now for artists to be exposed, which is great. I think it's
a great time to be an artist. I know, it's kind of the wild wild West, and you have, you know, more that you have to do because there's so many different platforms now. But I think that you could have legitimately have a career as an independent artist because you run that fear if you get signed of being put on the back burner or you're on a runway with you know, twenty other artists, and you're not able to
freely release music on your own. That's what I love what some of these independent artists are doing, whether it's on TikTok or whatever. You know, you know, the the Ashley Cooks of the world who just got signed and Alexandra k I mean, they're doing it on their own. And I've seen some of these TikTok artists actually band together and do their own tours. So in a way, you know, they're saying, listen, we can do this independently. We have a whole fan base that's out there that's
discovering us on social media. We're talking with Leslie Fram of CMT on Strictly Business. We'll be right back. We're back with Leslie Fram of CMT, who's leading the charge in Nashville for diversity with some outside initiatives for country music as well as the work she does at CMT.
So move away from the subject of representation, uh for a little bit here, of course, I want to ask you about the world of CMT itself and its core music franchises, and most of all, are most prominently of all CMT awards, as people know, went on CBS for the first time this year. Um, there were musical chairs going on in the Country Award sphere. UM and the c m as were unaffected by that, but the other two big shows, the A c m S the c
m T S did some switching around. And UM, you know, CBS stop negotiating to renew the A c M S, and I think a lot of us probably thought, well, you know, CBS can do without a Country Music Awards show. That wouldn't be the strangest thing in the world. And then we hear that they're elevating the c MT Awards to premiere on CPS and then follow on CMT later and and also be on a million different channels and
platforms like everything is nowadays. Um and uh, that seems like a no brainer in retrospect that do you remember the initial stirrings of hey, this is something we can do to elevate the show that corporately is already in house. Um, it's already a franchise for a sister or nice network
or whatever we want to call it. Um. And did you have any sort of territorial feelings like we should we should get that on cm the uh or what was your feelings when you first started to get the rumblings of an idea that the awards with the on a major broadcast network. You know, we've really been lucky, Chris, that we've had big fans of the same T Music Awards in the company within the company, from Bob back Ish to George Cheeks to Bruce Gilmur to Chris McCarthy.
They come to the show every year. So the fact that it was in the portfolio just made sense to take it to a broader audience on CBS. And so for us, obviously taking it to a bigger audience, we were really proud that we were able to do that. Plus you know, streaming on Paramount plus it just it made sense. And the fact that they were fans of the show, they're fans of country music. They loved what we did, and most importantly, they said, hey, just do the show that you do. You don't have to change
anything because it's going on CBS. We just want you guys to do the show that you do, because you know, our show has a different point of view outside of the fact that it spanned the did our show is known for great collaborations with artists from out of the genre, unexpected moments, and you know, having that look of an outdoor stage, and so I think it all worked, and
it worked beautifully on CBS. You know, we had to change the day because of the Grammys, but at the end of the day, I thought the show was beautiful. We were really proud of it. And you know, for me to be able to continue to work with Margaret Como and John Hamilin, it's just it's an honor. I
learned every day from them. But having that support from the company, and again, they were all here and they were sitting at the very beginning of the show to the very end of the show, they were just you know, they're in there. They're always an one. I think they also love the camaraderie between the artist because sometimes you might not see that at other award shows and other genres. But the fact that the artists love each other and they sit with each other and they do the red
carpet and they're cheering each other on. We kind of have our own special world and country music. But again, we were very, very proud of what we were able to do on CBS and the fact that we're going to be back on CBS next year. Okay, so that's a commitment. To that it worked and we're gonna keep
doing it. It's a huge commitment again and uh, you know, probably one of the proudest moments for all of us at CMT because it's our biggest show of the year, So to be able to have it on CBS and Paramount plus having that brand be displayed to a bigger audience, our brand mental world to all of us. Yeah. You know, when I when I was trying to figure out how
the show did, it seems almost impossible now. I mean, I don't know how to engauge between the different channels and platforms it's on and actual multiple networks in different ways to stream um and you've got you know, this
new free service that Paramount is on. So uh, when we talk about ratings now, whether it's for that show or anything else, is there even like a single measure that makes sense that you look to to figure out whether we're on the right track, you know, I listen, I think that the fact that we had over five million viewers, it was such a win for the company because you never know, you know, mostly award shows are down and viewing only because there's so much for people
to consume nowadays. But the fact that we had you know, billions of impressions on social media, and you know we see that with the v m as all the time, that people are consuming in different ways, and now that we can take it to all these different platforms for our fans to consume it. Just that's the thing I love about being in this company because now with Paramount Plus, we're looking to align all of the the brands globally.
You know, we have these Music Council calls where we're saying, Okay, what are we all doing this year and how can we all support So it could be CMT having a Crossroads that gets played on all of the MTV brands and you know all over Europe. You know, we did that it Kelsey Balleruni and Halsey. And now we're talking about doing that with more of our Crossroads and having Crossroads having a you know, having a real presence on
Paramount Plus. We're working on twenty anniversary this year for Crossroads and looking to have more of our Crossroads on Paramount Plus. And now we've taken over the iconic v H one Storytellers for CMT Storytellers. We we taped our first one and aired it with Brooks and Dunne. We're about to do another one, which you know, I can tell you is with Darius Rucker that we're going to tape and in August. So the fact that we're aligning
all of these brands, it's just really exciting. Okay, I was gonna ask about CMT crossroads because yes, you guys don't do a lot of them, but when you do, you really focus a lot of attention on them. So, um, the Black pumas he got into one was great. Um, do you have a feeling for how many of those you want to do and whether it um it's like having a special or you think of it as a series even though it's kind of intermittent, or what sort of we tape we actually air for a year on CMT.
I think that we're looking to do some bonus crossroads that can air on Paramount. Plus we're working right now on our twentieth anniversary episode, which will be able to tell you about very soon. But there's so many artists
that still want to do crossroads. Plus we have artists that have done multiple cross roads just because of the longevity of their career, and so a lot of the country artists have done multiple crossroads they love you know, they love doing it obviously because they have an affinity for artists outside of the genre, and we always the first thing a lot of our new artists say is I want to do Crossroads with It just comes up organically all the time and we always have people on
Twitter making Crossroads recommendations, which I love. I'd love some help booking. Uh well, I want to ask about the different ways people experience CMT now. And CMT is primarily a linear cable brand, but the pay TV world is changing fast, as you know we see within your parent company, Paramount Global. Um So how much are you focused on
c m T S linear TV business these days? And what have you learned by having CMT on Pluto TV, which I know a lot of TV exact love because they get to see how long people watch any given show on streaming and track that in real time and that's that's not something used to get from Nielsen ratings.
You know, Pluto has been very interesting, as has been Paramount Plus because Christmas card these vision you know for Paramount Plus, what was to bring back all these iconic MTV shows And when you look at like Yo MTV wraps and Beavis and butt Head and the hundreds of episodes. There's such an affinity for a nostalgia and the fact
that they are reimagining mtvs behind them music. To me, those are those brands, and you know, between you and I, you know that around the pandemic there was this real urgency and need for nostalgia, and the fact that these shows are coming back and some of them are coming back and being reimagined is just so important because that that MTV brand and those the CMT brand are so
relevant to a generation and more generations to come. So the fact that we have Pluto TV that can air you know, old MTV episodes and CMT episodes and now with Paramount Plus, it's great because we can just really spread this wealth of content. And we always talk about the vault because if you look at MTV and c MT, the vault of what we have is overwhelming. You know.
We feel like CMT especially what differentiates us with other country outlets is the fact that we are in the business of country music three hundred and sixty five days a year with this living, breathing hot twenty countdown every single week agend, which is three hours of like up to the minute, country content, interviews, videos, festivals. UM, it's it's something that we're very proud of what our digital
team has done. They have created these unbelievable franchises. One is called c MT Stages that looks at the stages of someone's career. A beautiful docuse series called on the Road where we can actually go on the road with an artist and see the day to day, living, breathing life of being on the road on a real tour. Um. And that's just the tip of the iceberg of what
the digital team is doing. Yeah. Well, a lot of people who are old fashioned, like some of us, were not always thinking about the digital sphere and all your different platforms and so, UM, I think, you know, it's easy to hear a lot of complaints. You probably hear them sometimes the same complaints that still probably still are made about MTV, like where's the m man? You know, it's right, it's all lifestyle programming or reality shows. You know, you devote a few hours in the middle of the
night to music videos. Um, and uh, people aren't really necessarily thinking that you have all this other stuff kind of going on the side where the music has kind of moved so how do you feel about that just personally the fact that you know, if you have come to c MT music wise, of course you've got the Top twenty cat down every weekend and things like that, and the specials during the year, but if people really want a diet of country music, they're gonna need to
drift to your other platforms. And do you think people are aware at this point? I think you know, probably a mainstream public doesn't understand that, you know, videos don't rate on television, but the amount of content that MTV produces on a daily, weekly basis for Music Plus internationally, and what we've been able to do because every month
we are out filming country content. It whether it's Seemed T, Camp, Buyer Sessions, or Crossroads, any of the music franchises that we do are about to announce a new one every month. Music is present on the channel, but also music is
present on all of our other platforms as well. Um And I did want to bring up the fact that the synergy that I was talking about a minute ago with Paramount Plus especially and CMT is that you have artists now that are making these great whether their documentaries or music series, like Miranda Lambert did this beautiful series from the Marfa Tapes and I don't know if you saw it, but it aired on Paramount Plus and CMT
and Tom Douglas is unbelievable documentary. I've never seen a documentary like this called Love Tom that premiered on Paramount Plus and will be airing on CMT. So you know, Ksey Musgraves, you know who did her her amazing album, uh movie on Paramount Plus. Those are the type of things that we can also partner with artists on which we're you know, that's a big part of our future is being able to partner with our artists around their content,
telling their stories. Yeah, yea. So Paramount Plus, it sounds like has has really been a big boon as far as you're concerned in terms of being able to do different types of programming. Absolutely. Absolutely, And I think when you look at and Paramount as well, when you look at eighteen eighty three and Yellowstone and the fact that you know, the music of Yellowstone is very Americana country centric and supporting artists like Landy Wilson and now Lanny
Wilson will have a part in Yellowstone. I mean, those are the things that will continue to happen where we can embrace artists outside of just their music. M eighty three with Tim and Faith reminding people that you know, Tim mcgrawl is also an amazing actor and guess what so as Faith Hill. It's so those are those are
the things that we're really excited about telling those rich stories. Yeah, well, I just want to ask you for a minute about your case and how do you manage your lifestyle because I feel like you know every artist in the industry, you're not removed. You go too shows and not just not just you know Tim mc grand Faith Shales show either. That's you know, showcases for artists are no name. And I think that's a point in pride for you that that you have your your figure out the pulse of
who might bubble up. Um, and you also have a life on a farm outside of Nashville, you and your husband and and I believe I read two donkeys and a draft horse. So uh, you have to pace yourself. Well, I have to give credit. We have an incredible music team at c MT, and you know, we're all music heads of all kinds of music, and they're turning me on to stuff all the time. Um. I remember when
I first got here maybe two years in. Jen Danielson, who works at Warner Brothers now is on my team and she was like, you really need to know about this guy named Chris Stapleton. So I think that, you know, it's it's wonderful that we all ensue music, all kinds of music on a daily basis. Um, it's really sort of a hobby for me. So I don't look at it as work. Plus I'm not doing those crazy radio hours and getting up at four am to do a morning show like I used to. And it also helps it.
In Nashville, the showcases are you know, at six or six thirty. So and I still, you know, I'm excited. I'm gonna go see Brandy Carlisle next week. She's going to be at a send. I'm a huge Brandy fan. Um. I just I love music. It's it's it's it's really a hobby for me. Live music is a hobby for me.
I mean, you've been a agent of change for greater representation of women, greater representation of people of color, and I would feel like these could be discouraging things at times when we see how slow change comes in Nashville and Country music and a lot of times in the music industry generally, but you know, there's not always a lot of recognition. Yes, we really need to in our ways,
um and get woke or like that. And you seem like such an optimistic person, and I would feel like, uh, you know, if if I were devoting myself to those causes, it would become difficult at times to be uh that sunny about it? And uh so do you have a lot of internal rage that we just never get to see as you see how slow change comes sometimes? Or
are you as optimistic as as you see? Well, I know I do get discouraged, and you know, you and I are on Twitter a lot, and there's a lot of negativity on Twitter, and I'm just one that doesn't want to get into that route of being negative. I don't really think it serves any purpose. I do think
it's important, though, to speak up. And this company, you know, Paramount Plus formally Viacom CBS has allowed me, you know, to have a voice and for all of us as d MT two, you know, have equal access and and you know, starting from equal play now with equal access and our partnership with m Theory and Cameo Carlson. I mean it's about you know, putting our money, you know, where our mouth is and going, hey, we can make change.
We started Equal Access with m Theory so that we could support diverse voices and be a pipeline for people that want to be in the industry. So I just try to focus on the things that I can help control and change. And then I have advisors at Nashville Music Equality with Shannon Sanders and Gina Miller and Courtney Katone, and it's they have been such great, you know, advisors, Like I can't tell you many times I've sat down with Shannon Sanders and and he's called me about things.
So I again I try. Yes, I do get discouraged, but again I don't think that staying in a negative state is going to help anyone. So I just try to stay positive and move forward. And I think moving forward is really the best thing to do. Do you have a Nashville hero? Is there anyone that you look up to in the business who, yes, I do well outside of my former boss Brian Phillips, who is my longtime mentor, UM, I would say Cindy maybe at u MG.
I think that she's such an artist advocate. She really cares about the artists, and you know, I think that I I see it on a daily basis, you know, and I can text her about something and she'll text me right back, and you know, we we both have an affinity and feel for a lot of these artists and what they go through. You know, it's it's really not easy. And I think a lot of labels are now understanding that they have to do something about, you know,
the mental health of their artists as well. So some artists get signed and they're not prepared for about what what's about to happen to them. And I think that really means a lot to to her, and you know, to all of us really support organizations like Porters Call that are there for these artists and what they have
to go through, you know, on a daily basis. Yeah, well, I love Cyndi um and I'm sure whether it's her you that the artists out there, it may not always be the norm that they run into executives can really deal with them on a wonder one basis and talk personally and uh and see why they valued that when they when they find it now, I appreciate it, I you know, I UM I just don't want to have an email unanswered because I remember when I was a baby DJ and I would send my cassettes out to
people and people got back to me, and I was like, Wow, if I would never be in a position I would get back to people. And it means a lot to someone that you at least you know they were heard in other words, and you get you were able to get back to them, and and just sometimes a little encouragement goes a long way. Okay, an ocultingly changed from my hundred thousands unopened emails. Good for you for being able to get a handle on that. That's great. Uh, well,
thank you so much for being with us. It's been a real cleoster to talk with you. And everyone listening please uh offer a silent round of applause for Cynth's Leslie Fan. Are You're amazing? Chris? Thank you. This has been an episode of Strictly Business. Tune in next week for another helping of conversation with media movers and shakers. Make sure you subscribe to the podcast to hear future episodes. Also leave a review at Apple Podcast let us know how we're doing.