A Radical, Community-Based Approach to Independent Production

production facilities that it also has. Cayman here speaks candidly about what it takes for a company to survive as an independent for as long as Radical have, and he talks about the unique skill set that it takes to manage creative people and process. John Cayman, chairman and CEO of Radical Media, thanks for coming by to talk to us about the independent production business. Happy to be here. It is. Radical Media is really a rarity these days.

It is a true independent of real size. So much production in New York City flows through your offices, and we appreciate you coming down to talk to us about what it's like in this moment of incredible demand for content, particularly television content this moment of incredible demand. What it's like to run a sizeable, independent company at a time

when the industry economics are also shifting radically. If you will tell us about right now where you see the most where you feel most optimistic for for long term growth for your business, Well, I think it's uh truly in the audience behavior. I think that what we're seeing in this radical shift and change that's taking place obviously due to technology. As a company, we anticipated it. We

thought that this would eventually happen. Old media dies slowly, as we know, but in name itself, we embrace radical change. And I think that for for a company like ours, uh, in the multidisciplinary approach that we have to business. UH,

it's been part of the ethos of the company. So while it is quite confusing, and will admit our heads are spinning at the daily announcements of yet another service in a new way in which content will be distributed, we feel fairly secure that as a company, we make content, and we've always embraced the concept of producing content that could live across multiple platforms. So it's crazy, it's challenging,

but it's also exciting. At the same time. You Uh, the company in its current form kind of came together in the early nineties and you were sort of perfectly positioned to capalies on the growing demand at the time from cable for high end a lot of unscripted production. Can you talk about how the that the moment of the nineties boom in cable and the current boom that we're seeing from from digital buyers as well as linear

TV buyers, how the two moments are different. Well, I think obviously the proliferation of channels that began in the nineties and then impacted by obviously digital media and the disruption of of digital was a in a sense almost

uh forced us to change some of our plans. Uh. You know, in the earliest days of of of radical, of being radical, we were big promoters of single sponsored programming and the kind of back to the future scenario that would cut through the clutter of fragmentation of media and cut through some of the uh expansion of advertising

on cable. Uh. That was quite successful for a while, but as broadband began to deliver and companies could resort to producing and publishing effectively their own content on their own websites, it kind of changed things. A little bit. The gatekeepers weren't there. The the programmers that were managing the networks weren't necessarily judging whether a program was appropriate for air or not, or for their air which was something uh different for let's say a brand or an advertiser.

But from a programming standpoint, we just began to focus on producing quality programming for the various partners that we could seek out, and and documentary work was certainly an early sign of our strength. We obviously are known for

our premium nonfiction work. Perhaps it's uh my own personal preference for nonfiction over overscripted, but I thought it was a place that we could we could stand out and uh, certainly in the early two thousands with programming that we did for companies like the Sundance Channel and Iconoclass and other things that we began to produce in documentaries that we made like The Fog of War winning an Academy Award, or the Concert for George or Joe Berlinger's or or

second season of Paradise Lost, or or even as they moved on to things like Some kind of Monster. Uh. That became the signature of the company is when nonfiction and documentary style was really defining who we were as a company. And how do you make a living on documentaries? That's a great question. I don't think you do make a living on documentaries per se, although we are seeing a resurgence, thank god of box office for one or

two films. But but I think with the advent of Netflix now and increasing the popularity of documentary and of course series based nonfiction is a strength of ours and one in which we are quite prolific today. Um and it's and it's it's something we enjoy and it's uh, it seems as if there's an audience there that really appreciates it. With all the programming that is out there,

there's certainly people like myself who prefer nonfiction. And uh, we I think are in a great place in terms of the various distribution platforms that have constantly evolved, and with the advent of streaming and the multiple services that are announcing themselves every day, we're in a pretty decent demand in terms of content that we create. Yeah. I mean, even before we saw the influx of Netflix and Amazon money, you saw Discovery, Channel A and E Networks, Sundance. I mean,

they were already becoming important funders of documentary. Is the theatrical release for documentaries? Is that becoming a very rarefied thing or do you still see a theatrical market. Well, I think the theatrical release for documentary is the brass ring. It's rare, and most people would say it never it never really can happen any longer until you come along to something as beautiful as Mr. Rogers and UH and Won't You Be My Neighbor, and also some of the other films the RPG as well as UH as as

well as UH Free Free Solo. So you start you're starting to see perhaps an audience as theaters are improving themselves and becoming more comfortable to go to with the reserve seating and all the benefits of the concession stand, etcetera. Today, I think people are starting to enjoy seeing a good doc in a theater and ironment as well as at home. And I think that there's opportunity in the non fiction space. UM. We are certainly excited by it with projects that we're

doing still for companies. Next weekend we'll have a premiere of a new documentary we've just done for Discovery. UM. It'll be UH in the competition with Ross Kaufman directing. And uh, it's based on the World Wildlife Fund, Uh, desire to preserve tigers around the world. Uh. So we're still in that business. We're still producing content for the Discoveries, not so much Sundance. We'd like to be doing more

with Sundance. We had a great six years with Iconoclass, often pointed to as a as A as a benchmark show in that space, but for us, UH, the advent of Netflix and the way in which that served up in the way in which an order as has been consuming premium nonfiction. We've just recently premiered the Ted Bundy Show that will be on Netflix. Uh as of January. Uh, super excited for Joe Burlinger, who has been obviously super

active in that true crime space. But interestingly, Joe is also just premiered his film on the subject of Bundy um at Sundance, and on practically the same weekend they've launched the documentary series, also directed by Accidental Um not completely accidental, quite actually bizarrely coincidental, but timing probably not. It is an anniversary And uh, who better than Joe.

He's he's clearly a student of the subject. At this point, and these things you know that the Tiger project that I understand, Fisher seats Stevens worked on, and the Ted Bundy these things are not things that you put together in a couple of weeks. These are long term lots of research that shoe leather work of documentaries. I still want to drill down, like how how do you help support that? Do you get distribution money early or do you are there times when you guys write checks and

you're not sure where it's going to go. We develop things with a very long tail. We are constantly searching and exploring the topics of interest. It's not all crime, thank god. Um. We are super excited about the development process in discovery and reading great books, reading great articles, materials. People come into us. We have a pretty open architecture. Radical is a community and it's one that I cherish. We have a lot of artists that consider Radical their home,

whether they're directors, editors, filmmakers, producers, etcetera. And so things come into us as a Hopefully I'd like to think of us as a reliable partner that people UH want to be in business with, which is perhaps a secret to our longevity. But I think from a standpoint of being able to support an idea, being able to evolve an idea, finding the UH what we believe will be the secret sauce to making it something that a public

will appreciate is our job. And within Radical we have this community of talent and and UH partners that are always looking for those projects. And the internal conversation that takes place is the development process for us. It's not as much as that we're writing checks, although we are optioning material based on I P based on books, etcetera.

To support a project we might do, but we're mostly involved in development as a conversation and an internal conversation and a workshop and brainstorming it with the artists that call Radical home and you actually you call them your artists in Residents program. It's a reference I've made to the many people who have a desk into our office.

We're all artists and residents. Uh. Some are more on staff than others UM and I think a very respectful term for people whose work I super appreciate and UH it's great to know that as an artist in residents they may be UH. Fisher Stevens is a great example of it. UH. Somebody who's pursuing many different things, including

his acting career. But the opportunity to to cross pollinate our projects, to discuss the possibilities of doing something with someone like Fisher and the people whom he might bring in to talk about a project is extraordinary and it's part of the privilege of having him as an artist in Residents and we many others who we consider that. You did a terrific documentary a couple of years ago. What happened Miss Simone with Liz Garbus exactly, just really

so well done, such illuminating a subject like that. That's got to be very gratifying to see when that, when something like that comes out and get such a claim, and it was super gratifying. It was a fabulous collaboration with Liz um. It was one in which we brought Liz into the project. Actually, my first conversation was with Liz was at a dinner for one of her films.

Liz Garbs a very accomplished documentary producer and director exactly, and uh I was at a premiere for one of the films that she had just completed in with her producing partner. They turned to me and said, what are you working on next and I said, well, we're sort of circling this project around an incredible artist and one that who's highly misunderstood, Nina Simone, and the two of them, both Liz and Amy Hobby lit up at the prospect of it. Uh. We were approached by the daughter of

Nina Simone, who knew us through another project. Speaking of years of development, we we had known the people who were brought the project to us for many years. One of the producers, Jason, was part of the part of the process and he approached us, and then eventually we brought Liz into the into the mix and produced a film that went all the way to the Academy Awards.

Didn't win, but it's nice to be nominated. You were invited, And what does the what in your experience when because you've had you've been you know, you you've had the success with things like Fog of War. What does in this day and age, what does that kind of award season traction? Does that? Can that translate to dollars and cents on you know, video sales or streams or I think that obviously winning an award is as prestigious as

being recognized for your work. Being nominated, quite frankly, even shortlisted. I think being recognized by your peers as an honor. UH. I don't think that actually winning the award itself is always the uh the secret to success. UH, having won many of them, it's uh, it looks nice on the mantel, but it's not. It's not. It's it's it. It just

encourages you to continue to pursue your craft. And having one and been part of a film that won an Academy Award, having been there two other times for two great films, also for the Paradise Lost third installment to Paradise Loss with Joe Burlinger and Bruce Sinowski, UH losing to a high school football movie, Undefeated, which was UH an interesting year with three young men recently UH freed from wrongful incarceration and front page of the New York Times.

We thought we had a good shot. We lost to Harvey Weinstein, but we have learned since, and we were very, very proud to be with Netflix for their first nomination of a the first original Netflix documentary. UH. And even Adam del Dao and Lisa reminded me that this past year, when they finally won for Icarus, that don't forget you were the first we brought them to the party. That's awesome. Well, what would you say at this point? Is your bread

and butter? Is it the is it the multi episode unscripted programming for for cable and digital fires in You know, Radical has uh three verticals of its opportunity, so entertainment is clearly an important one and UH rising with a bullet in terms of opportunity for us, and in that space, premium nonfiction is our bread and butter. It's work that we do for all the various distribution platforms today there's no end to them, as well as the all the

new ones being announced every day. But we're very privileged to have been working with many of the existing ones and working with some of the new ones that are about to be unleashed. UH. So we're UH, we're certainly focused on that business as a recurring series business as

well as UH limited series. We're focusing on some development of some very important scripted material right now, some of it based on nonfiction, but the hybrid model of nonfiction scripted dramatization combined with script is an area that we're very active in. We have our Mars series on national geographic. We're just in production and completing production actually of a grant ulyssess Grant series based on the Ron Churnout book

for the History Channel. Uh again, UH, super exciting project that we uh just finished production we're in post production on. We are looking at other projects like that as we speak, and we are very excited about some of the scripted material that we're developing based on factual UH stories that we think will make for very interesting scripted series or even documentaries. So we have a complete mix in that space.

We are also as a company and part of our success is also coming from the work that we do in advertising. Uh. It's no secret that radicals roots began in advertising, and we still are quite active and UH significant player on a global basis. We work for major brands like Nike and uh, Apple and others that produce

great commercial work and longer form content around the world. UH. We have a great relationship with both advertising agencies and many of the brands directly those That world is incredibly confused by the current media landscape as UH an audience's behavior as to how they're watching programming in the V

O D universe. UM, it's not anymore it can't just be disruption and uh, I'll become a preacher of the or an evangelist for needing brands to rethink how they're going to reach an audience and not just think of them as consumers, but create something that's truly appreciated by that audience. And so we're working actively with brands. We're

working on a global basis. With that, we will have a very robust traditional advertising business, but in another category of the company, what we call our studio, we are doing a lot of invasion innovation in experiential entertainment, immersive

entertainment technology. We've always had with a name like Radical Media, we've always had a digital fluency as a part of the mix of artists and talent that work at Radical and that digital fluency allows us to think three dimensionally across all the platforms that we produce for whether it's entertainment or it's advertising, or in the original creation of experiential entertainment that we're doing in the studio section of

the company. That must be great for you for talent scouting and for kind of identifying the next, you know, the next thing on the horizon in terms of in terms of production in terms of the way that consume or want to interact with content. Imagine that's that's really fertile ground for you. Well, the fertile ground is for talent that considers Radical their home. We truly can provide

them with multiple platform opportunities. So you could take a young artist like Austin Peters who's enjoying UH producing a show for ESPN Plus right now with Lebron James more than an athlete. H Austin came to us through his music video career, has had a very successful commercial career and his also going on to series based programming UM, not just in a digital side button, developing original work

as well. Derek c In France, homegrown talent at Radical has been with me many many years UH to see Derek's not only his his commercial career blossom as it has, but his now feature career. And we're looking at projects to eventually wear online with every studio and network as

well to do some work with with Derek. But Derek still considers Radical as home, and even while he's in the middle of production of a very exciting new HBO show, he's working out of our offices and meeting with some of the key talent and developing it there and other people are working on that. So we we have the privilege of this cross pollination of all of the work that we do. UM happening in this one place that

we call home. But it's a community, and it exists not just in New York, but in our Los Angeles office, in our London office, Berlin as well as Shanghai. You're you're widespread around the world. This might be hard to generalize, but would you say that the brand work that you do, whether it's brand initiatives for for a Nike or or even creative advertising, is it is it pound for pound? Is it more lucrative for radical to produce a commercial for a brand or do an experience for a brand?

Or is it or is the home run still the multi part series that can be renewed. There's a there's a nuance of both. Uh, you know. The renewal of something like allows us to think ahead of ourselves and being able to think about what we're gonna be doing next year. Advertising generally is pretty reactive and sometimes doesn't know what it's doing from quarter to quarter, but we

benefit from doing it all. Uh, you know, I I'm headed to visit a company to today tonight, UH, visiting a company that we make commercials for, but is smart enough to know they need to be doing something else. And being able to be part of that conversation and to have the uh, the credential to be able to be part of that bigger conversation is a privilege of being radical, radical and also having been doing it for many It's not as if we're new to the party.

It's not as if we haven't done this before. The claim that we've gotten a critical acclaim that we've gotten for the show's maybe even some of the awards that we've won, have given us permission to speak on a much broader basis of possibility and UH. And as I said before, I'd like to think of us as evangelists in that category. How do you as a leader, you are the chairman, CEO. How do you We've I've seen you know many companies have success grow, but inevitably partners leave,

projects go, there's fights, lawsuits. How do you? How have you kept radical media together in its current form since the early nineties, but the roots are even deeper. How have you kept it together? What is the what would you say have been keys to effective leadership of this incredibly creative operation. Well, I think it goes back to, uh, the concept of family and of community. I think that, um, we don't really have too many fights. We may have disagreements,

but we don't have fights. Um. All families are sometimes a little dysfunctional, but dysfunctionality can lead to great things. Uh. I think that it's been a terrific partnership of different people in different categories of their responsibilities. And UH, I'd like to think that as the ringmaster, along with my partner Frank Sherma, has been We've been together for almost thirty years in our careers. UH. And Frank was recently elected as the chairman of the Television Academy, which I'm

so incredibly proud of him as well. Yeah, arts and Sciences based in New York, which is an amazing accomplishment for for Frank and one that I'm particularly proud of. But I think our leadership and the part ownership with different people, in the way in which we've been able to work with people who have been part of the company, We've had an incredible record of people staying with us

for a long time. And UH, and even when they leave, Uh, we remain generally pretty good friends and they come back to visit me constantly, And Uh, I think it's because of the relationship that we built and the road that we decided to take in terms of looking towards the future and always thinking about the future and a vision for what's next with the company, which i'd like to think of is my job. Well, that speaks It speaks well of how you treat people, for sure. Tell us,

speaking of what's next? What for nineteen what are we give us a hint of a couple of things that are brewing that you're excited about. Well, I think that from a standpoint of conversations that we're having right now and a little too soon to announce some of the projects. But we have been uh incredibly active in producing and selling and developing and production on shows across almost every key distribution platform out there right now, from networks to

streamers and new platforms of technology. So, uh, we have a host of shows that we've been developing that are in that gestation period which we are finally closing on all of the deals and going into various stages of production. We are thinking about the creation of some new I P and some projects in the experiential space that we've been incubating for the last year or so and that

are finally coming to fruition. I think that those uh, those projects are near and dear to me in terms of the potential of new economic model old for us. As you mentioned earlier, there's no question there's a challenging economy of all of this liberation of channel channels. It's not as simple as everybody thinks it's. It could be considered the new Golden Age of television, but not with

the same price tag or opportunity um. But at the same time, there are places in which we're recognizing opportunities. In two thousand nineteen I think is gonna be a big year for us in terms of realizing some of those projects. Great well, we will stay tuned and keep our eye out for that at Radical Media Logo. Thank you so much for your time, John super, thank you, Cynthia, and look forward to it by thanks for listening. To be sure to tune in next week for another episode of Strictly Business.