ENGAGE: Story Spotters with David Pullen and Sarah Jane McKechnie

the nightmare? What actions do we take? We discovered that the best way to build the trust and drive the engagement and influence the change is start by understanding the other person and connecting to their dream before you start forcing the problems and the actions you

well. Everyone big or small gets the same level of service because weirdly, doesn't really matter to me who you are or how big you are, what matters is the stories you're telling. That's what I love about my job. And you see, in corporate marketing, some stories, some scripts, are better than others, and I wanted to find out why that is. What are the ingredients and what's the formula for a great story, one that makes the hairs stand up on the back of your neck, makes you want to cry, makes you

feel seen. Those feelings are intense, and if they're happening when you're watching an advert or a brand film or reading a post on LinkedIn, that is powerful. So the storytelling for business podcast is on a mission to understand all this stuff. I'm talking to storytelling experts and real life regular business owners too, who have interesting jobs and, of course, fascinating

stories. And today's episode, it's gonna be a cracker, because I've got the pleasure of talking to David Pullen and Sarah Jane McKechnie, who are the story spotters. So quick intro, David and Sarah Jane are, in my view, the power couple of the storytelling world. They offer business consulting, coaching and training. They've worked with a few companies you might have heard of, Microsoft, ey, PwC, Novartis, AXA, American

Express, I could go on. They work with clients, all kinds of clients, to discover, develop and deliver a strategic story that connects and wins. And they very kindly shared the tricks of their trade with all of us in the exceptional new book, The DNA of engagement. Here it is.

Well, anyway, that's quite enough from me. Let's actually let them talk for a minute. So let's meet them. David Pullen and Sarah. Jane McKechnie, welcome to storytelling for business. Hello. Thank you,

and more often mispronounced. So for years, we were called McKechnie Pullen limited, which sounded like a sort of Midlands estate agent. And I was doing some work in during lockdown, actually, with a guy called Neil Bearden, who was the he was, he's a stats prof, or was a stats prof at INSEAD in Singapore. And he got in touch with me on LinkedIn and said, Listen, everything's going online. He taught storytelling at INSEAD as well. Said, Listen,

I'm taking it all online. I've got sort of too much to do. Would you come and support me on this? To which I said, Yeah, brilliant, absolutely. And we got on really well. And one night after, because I say night because it was happening all over the world, and I'd be drinking espresso at three o'clock. In the morning. Oh, yeah, but fun, because really interesting people. And Neil said, I really like what you do, David, what actually do you do?

And I said, Well, essentially, what Sarah, Jane and I do is we go into organisations and we whether it's a change programme, whether it's a sales programme, whatever we we listen to the fact that they're talking until we sort of, you know, little like Haley Joel Osment in who says, I saw, I see dead people. We see stories. So we listen to the facts, and we go, I think the story you're trying to tell is this. And people say, Oh,

that's exactly what it is. Let's use that story as the as the hub off which the the spokes of the facts and the data drive.

It's like, it's like the kind of, you know, the about us section on your video on your website, and there's this sweet little video called 90 seconds with the story spotters, and it's each of you guys sitting on a sofa, and it cuts between, it's one question, and then each of you answers it, and there's questions like, What's your favourite breakfast and who was

your first kiss? And then under that, there's a more kind of traditional CV, with the bullet points, explaining how you both used to be actors and you've performed on stages around the world and how you've been script writers for leaders and teams and trained as coaches and studied hypnotherapy. However, I have remembered all the things, but it's the smashed avocado and the behind the bike bike shed kiss that I remembered first, and that also, that also kind of endeared me to you, even though

I knew already. So that's kind of illustrating what Sarah Jane, what you're saying, isn't it about we're always telling stories. They're little, tiny snippets on those videos, but each one is a story, and it

ways. Which is, one is the stories that you tell, which, when you tell a story, you ignite things in other people's minds. That's, that's the thing, and it's a wonderful way of explaining things because, because that is how we live, we, as I said, are, you know, every

day is a story. So the stories that we tell in order to explain the stories that we listen for, which is incredibly important because by stories out of others and and being able to understand people better if we if we hear the stories and are interested in other people's stories, so it's a that's the connection that is so important, the stories that we tell by our behaviours, which say it's how we show up, and all That pieces, the how we treat people, all those kinds of things, tells a

story and and has an effect on other people around. And then there are the stories. My favourite, really, yeah. It's the stories that we tell ourselves, this concept, Oh, yeah. And we have that rambling that we have that thing. All the time, and, and when we come, when we you know, somebody might say something, and all of a sudden it jars. And we are remembering something. And we're, we're, we're triggered

yeah by something Yeah. And it's understanding that and, and it can sort of scupper all sorts of conversations which, which are needed again, for this collaboration, so to understand that and to understand what triggers why, and instead of, instead of kind of having that initial reaction to it, which might scupper you is get curious instead. So, so

mean? And I think, I think the act of storytelling is an act of vulnerability in itself. Yes, you're letting people into your heart as well as your head, and you're risking that somebody might say, well, I don't agree with you, which is great, because then you're in a discussion and it's, um, well,

come on, tell me, tell us. Tell us all about the book. I've waved it around that I'll just say, first, it's super fun. It's got pictures and diagrams and The Sarah Jane Adventures, and it's divided into Acts and scenes, and it's really accessible and fun, but it's a kick ass blueprint, seriously, or an action plan for, well, for some really, really heavy stuff. So So tell us about the book. What's the point of your book, please? Well,

tone of voice. You should really think about writing someone then we were doing this particular piece of work with Aviva, which under the leadership of Amanda block, named Amanda Blanc, when she was changing the strategy of the company, when she essentially said to her 200 top leaders, this is the strategy. We're slimming the company down in this way. This is the forward thinking. I can't do it myself. You have to make this happen.

And there was a big piece of work that was was led by Accenture about the strategy and what the leaders actually did mentally around that, when they suddenly realised, okay, that's one thing, but they then have to go out and have the conversations, which get the which get the 22,000 people at the time in the organisation to lean in. Oh yeah, I want to be

part of that. So they brought us on board to create that part of the programme about, how do you get people, essentially, to be excited by the possibility, and then also, co create the future. CO create the story, which is really important. Actually, you can tell people's stories, but if they, if they, if they add to it themselves, and, yes, you know, colour the stories themselves, then they, they are more likely to buy into the story and make the story happen.

So the book really is the it's the journey of how we actually did that piece of work, plus tonnes of other stuff that we've, we've done right throughout our careers with leaders, and that's what it is.

And it's, yeah, it's, it's designed, really, as a guide to help people on the journey, people who have to have the conversations that build trust, which is the primary thing driving, which will drive engagement, and therefore influence change, whether it's, you know, changing the direction of a company or, you know, changing your partner's mind about a restaurant that they don't want to go to. Yes, that's, that's always more, that's always a difficult one.

something like that. That gets in the way, and you've got five minutes to do. So the action is you start racing around trying to get it all done. And this pattern of dream, Nightmare, action is how we we understand, plan and problem solve our lives and what we every day, every day, every moment of the day, from getting the kids up to trying to solve the climate crisis, is, what do we do? What's the dream? What's going to get in the wave at the nightmare? What actions do we

take? And we just we discovered that the best way this dream to build the trust and drive the engagement and influence the change is start by understanding the other person and connecting to their dream before you start forcing the problems and the actions. If you want to talk about that understanding,

today. I think it was very nice to go down, but you won't be able to go in the water unless you put your wellies on. So would it be a good idea to put them on now and then we can have a really good splash. The thing is that we often what we do is want to put them on what they're not on and because you, because it's your plan, that you think, no, I've got to go to the park now because, and then I've got to, you know, time to discuss it and

listened. I mean, all these things that allow space and connection and and then only then, when people are doing what you're doing now, which is nodding, you know, it's that, yeah, yes, okay, this person understands me. It's so it's such a basic human need that then only then can you really have the right to say, but, but this is, this is, you know, yes, exactly. This might not happen

because, and give a reason. So it's, I think one of the things that's so important is to always remember that you have to care for your and I'm going to use the word audience, and what I'm audience is anybody that, whether it's a toddler, whether it's, you know, 1000 people in a hall, whether it's your direct reports, or whoever it is, yes, is, is you absolutely have to care about how they're going to get this message, what what their agenda is and or what you can agree with with that's

everyone. The same page they have, they have a vivid picture of what things are going to look like. So being understood and making people understand are the basis of building trust. Really.

that's his hobby. And so, because we are also getting his wellies on, but because we are in that, in those kinds of family, you know, often where we feel benign, and it's a it's a celebration and everything we have, the patience and the understanding. Go up to Uncle Fred and say, Oh, have you been

fishing lately? And we will listen and ask questions, because we care, yeah, and I think, I think, you know this, this kind of the fact that we do, we do it automatically in certain situation, but when the pressures on, and when we have, when we have a whole load of things, because, because we're kind of one track in terms of this is what I need to do. This is a we, we stop. We kind of want to bypass that, because all the humanity that we actually have often, can it can recede?

care. You have to properly care and invest in the thing and learn about the thing because they care. And actually, by the end of it, you probably do care. I think it's

But if you've only got limited amount of time, how do you maximise the productivity of that time that you've got?

ways. There's the there's the reptilian, the oldest part of our brain, which is basically pattern matching, and sort of going, do I like this person? Do I trust them? Can do I actually want to be around them? That's the first gatekeeper of the brain that sort of gets you so it's how you show up in the room. Is, is, is huge about that. I mean, do you look like somebody they want to spend time

with? The second part of the brain is the is the limbic system, the emotional part, if you like, which is, which is the one that wants to feel, have I been understood? Only then do we

get to the newest part of our brain, which is the, which is the neocortex, which is the, you know, rational problem solving stuff. And I think the time poor thing is, means that in business, what we often do is we rush to that without getting past the two gatekeepers first. And I think the simple tip is, is really just to Sarah Jane's point. Breathe before you go into any situation, before you

switch the teams. Call on, before you walk through a room, just think to yourself, how am I going to show up in this room? Who am I bringing into this space? Just show up as your best self. Connect. Don't put on it's not about. Putting on an act, but it's about genuinely showing up with presence and warmth. And the warmth is the the presence is looking and sounding like you don't want to be anywhere else except right here, right now, in this moment, fully focused,

focused, absolutely focused. And then the warmth is about showing that you've considered the other person, that what you are doing is is is not orientated towards yourself, but it is orientated towards the greater good, or the other person, or whatever it is. So quite simply, show up well, and then make the first thing that comes out of your mouth, something that shows the other person that you have considered them. That's the that's the easiest way to

going into the meeting. It's our entire being that's going and so I think there's a something that I learned some time ago from a she, and she was a very, very wise meditation teacher, and she called it the change breath. So when you, if you think about, you're in a meeting, and you're, you're, you know, you've had all sorts of stimuli and all that kind of things. Loads of remember those. Remember taken notes and everything. And yet, then you go out, clutching your files, whatever, and going

straight to another meeting. And that transition, it's so easy if you just sort of, if you, if you kind of, like, launch into the other meeting, you're still full of what you've just been trying to grapple with. And so there's this whole of actually, just physically, physically trying to kind of calm yourself afterwards. So go somewhere, even if it's in the lift, just really breathe in through your nose and really feel your

diaphragm expanding. And just so big breath in, and then a slow breath out through the mouth, and you can do that a couple of times. And what it does, it just frees up the body. Because we often feel we forget, sometimes I think that we have a body that's giving off all sorts of signals that is taking our head from meeting to meeting, and so that to actually do that, and it can really start to calm, just clear the brain a little bit

punctuation. It is, it is, and, and that, I think, is, is such an important thing, impressively important.

It's got you. So whatever else is going on,

to to feel warm. Yes, yeah, and, and that's the and that's exactly what you were talking about. Like you show up and you want them to feel like you've considered them. You want them to feel that that being seen. Yeah, no, that's good. That's just joined a few dots. For me,

right? Else except right here, right now and then. It's the warmth. Do they look and sounds as if they if they have taken the other person into consideration, and then, and only then comes the power, which is, do I believe their values? Do I believe their their system of belief? Do I believe what

they're saying to me? And I think too often, going back to what we said earlier about people being time poor and sort of having KPIs and things like that to hit in business, we we sort of go, I've just got to get all my power out without considering those two incredibly important bits of presence, and as you say, the warmth.

you've been on? Just connect, just show that you've been present and that you've listened and that you've understood.

change. Obviously, they want to

win their pitch and they want to influence change. So they're going to be benefiting from all of your experience to help them to do that and well done them for recognising that they need a bit of help.

the NCT, was it? Was it the NCT, or it was it was some children organisation that they said it in a different way, but the sort of the format of addressing a child was so that you can kind of avoid the tantrum and all that difficulty, or them feeling frightened and things like that, was indeed this very similar type of idea that you connect.

You connect with them at first with something that they understand, and only then can you introduce the negative thing about that, something that they can't can't understand might not happen because of something. So why don't we do this? And I thought it was amazing, wasn't it? Do you remember

the concept of it. So we were working with them on how they engage those leadership, the leadership, and we went back to do a follow up with them, and the person who was in charge of this team said, you know, this is this is amazing. I mean, it really worked. It really works with the management. But I tell you, when it really worked even better was last weekend when I was trying to plan out my wedding with my fiance.

about the offerings of my guests, but they are, you are all brilliant. Anyway, I'm Wittering. Please tell us about the book app, because it's been nominated for prizes, and it's amazing. So go on, go, go, go, plug. There it is. So

year. What we're thrilled about is that we're in the people, culture and management category, which is, is fantastic because essentially, that's what the book is about. It's about how you create the culture for the people and manage those people so that change happens. So yeah, that's the Yeah. It hit number one on Amazon in UK, US and Australia, and it's up for that award September the 10th in Wembley. People

in there. I mean, I just, yeah, my eye, it's such a shame, because we don't deserve it, and we don't deserve lies and deceit and all this sort of thing, and different all the different stories that are coming out, which is, I

it'd be quite nice. I

So to be actually, actually giving people the tools whereby they can use story ethically to really connect and make change. Funnily enough, I wrote an article that was published last week called it was interesting. The brief was what CEOs can learn from the boring power of Mark Carney, who's the prime minister of of Canada. And I, my premise was, I don't think he's boring at all. What I think he is measured, he's meticulous, and he genuinely connected with

the desire of the. The of the Canadian people and what they hope for for their future. And so I think the more that we can you know, there are certain elements in this world at the moment who are really clever at telling stories, and they don't really care whether they're true or not. Oh yeah, and they're working. So to be able to give good people the equal power, to be able to use these skills, ethic, ethically. Yes, the last chapter of our book is called The only way is ethics. We Yeah,

that would be great. And to earn some money alongside love

Toga stands for two old gits abroad, because what we're really good at doing is, is, is just sort of getting in, just getting into the nitty gritty of someone, and listening to the stories of people. And our favourite trick is we'll find out. We'll we'll find a really good restaurant that we go to, and then we say to the person in charge of it, so where do you reckon we should go next? And the places that we've gone just on recommendation, because we're interested in listening to, you

know their recommendations. Love to do more of that. Brilliant,

being on the podcast. Of course, we'll make sure that all of the ways that people can connect with you and work with you and buy your book, we'll put all of that information in the show notes, but just tell us as well. How can people find you both? Well, we've

What a way to kick off season two. Wasn't that epic? Okay, brace yourself, grab grab a pen and paper, because here are my key takeaways. Number one, there are four types of story. One, the stories we tell. Two, the stories we listen for that help us to connect with other people. Three, the stories we present to the world in our behaviour and how we show up, and four, the stories we tell ourselves, key takeaway number two, don't forget your humanity. Listen. We

all live through stories. So it's a natural way to communicate and connect with other people and understand one another. I want you to imagine arrows connecting all of this

stuff. Story equals communication, equals connection, equals understanding, and understanding leads to trust, which enables collaboration, and that's how we get engagement three but in business, we can sometimes lose sight of that emotional journey of connection and our humanity and we get bogged down by the facts, whereas the story spotters think of the facts and the data as the outer spokes of a wheel with story as the central hub, which holds it all together and enables it to turn

four. Breathe, baby. Breathe. No matter how busy you are, take a moment to come back to your body. Just breathe. Calm your nervous system. Five leadership is bringing people with you as a leader. You need to understand the story you're in, and you need to understand the DNA of engagement, dream, Nightmare, action, remember, so take time to understand your audience's

dreams and. Then gently remind them that they'll be facing a nightmare if they don't take the action you want before you know it, they'll be putting on their own wellies. Golly, that was a lot, but wasn't it good? And there's so much more great stuff to come in the podcast, in next week's episode, a bit of showbiz.