Every overnight success is not... Well, it's like Joe Rogan. Everybody talks about Joe Rogan. And I'm like, please realize that guy started in 1988. If you want to do a podcast like Joe Rogan, step one is be Joe Rogan. I thought step one was eat bugs. Isn't that how he started?
Why do we as podcasters willingly subject ourselves to hours of editing, awkward... and the existential dread of shouting into the void if you've ever asked yourself that or if you're just here to revel in the weird wonderful world then you're in the right place. Welcome to Sound Strategy with Lucas Dickey. Without a doubt, this is the most meta podcast about podcasts ever.
I'm your host, Lucas Dickey of DeepCast. I'm your podcast producer and occasional co-host, Allison Melody. And today we have a Hall of Fame podcast. He's a teacher at heart for sure. Any conversation you ever have with this man, there's definitely lessons you're walking away with. And one of the most respected voices.
and we're not just saying this to stroke his ego is definitely true. But I'm sure he doesn't mind. He's the founder of the School of Podcasting, and he's been helping podcasters do it right since before most of us even knew what the heck an RSS feed was. Welcome to Soundstrap. Oh, so happy to be here. Yes, back in 2005 when you would chisel a podcast out of granite. Is that how you guys did it? That's it. Yeah, Dave, you set me up for the perfect segue. So you and I got to talk briefly.
And I talked to you about this podcast and you said, Can we not spend a majority of the time talking about the first 10 to 15 years of this space? Because I've done that show 100 times now. Can we talk about something else instead?
So given that, I'm not going to go ahead and ask you 20 minutes about that. Instead, I'm going to say, what are your three to four minutes version of taking 15 years and compressing it in a way that you think our audience should be aware of before we get into the rest? Well, how were cars back in the 50s? They were okay, but they didn't have air conditioning. They didn't have this. They didn't have that. So podcasting in 2005.
there wasn't um media hosts yet and there was no iphone yet you know that And now it's here and things have gotten easier and things have gotten cheaper. And I think we're over 51% now, Edison Research. If you count video, 55%, people now are watching. which is great because back in 2005, you spent 10 minutes explaining what a podcast was to somebody to go, yeah, I'm not doing that.
wonderful so that is a good i like the fast track version of that which will hit you with some nice fast track questions here are you ready for this okay we'll try if you had to start a pod It was not about podcasting, right? Good question. Well, here, because I just found out yesterday, this is, I don't want to bring the party down, but I found out yesterday, thanks, mom. I'm now officially a diabetic. So I need to go read Allison's book and get on the vegan train.
So that's probably the podcast I'm going to go listen to. I call that a journey podcast. You don't always have to be the expert. Sometimes you can be the person looking for the answers and you kind of just, you know, you're the reporter out going, this is what I found.
is what i found and you bring it back so that would be that because that's really the one thing i'm like right now at least that has my full attention your health yeah yeah i love it and it makes total sense i was going to say folks who don't know allison show which dave you are Allison, quick reminder, because he just gave a little shout out to you there. And I did not pay him for that shout out. My show is Food Heals. It's about the healing.
I just really want to help people realize the beautiful body is designed to heal itself when given it the tools that it needs to do so. So I help people find the tools. i love it sounds like dave should be a guest on the show and you guys could work through some of these things absolutely pretty amazing dave this show concept actually reminds me we have a guest coming up and he talks a lot about loneliness and like
obviously a loneliness epidemic today, but a lot of it is through his own perspective and then wanting to learn more about it. So bringing guests on who help him think through making friends and how that helps you. combat loneliness in today's age so i love the ideas like practical application of the thing you're trying to learn yeah and the other problem i have is i've started over 30 shows at this point and so any show i would have done I already have like my background.
customer service so i started a customer service show that was creatively named the customer service show and i did about i don't know eight episodes and i went oh you know what this is my job it's not my passion and i was like that was the end of that plus it just sounds I'd be like, I went into this place and they did, you know, just complaining. So that's the other problem. Any show that I want to do, I probably already.
Yeah, that's fair. And there's maybe there's a nugget there for listeners in terms of like passion matters here. If you don't have the conviction, it's like starting a company to a certain extent. Like if you're not passionate about it, you're going to burn out pretty quickly.
Why do it? Yeah. You have to be willing to talk about it for free because for the first two to three years, you're going to be talking about it for free because everybody's like, oh, I'm going to start a podcast. I'm going to get ads or I'm going to do this. You don't monetize a podcast. You monetize an audience. and she was talking about growing a community and she said it takes around three years to build a community.
like there it is it's the magic answer i hear it over and over and it's not six weeks it's not you know it's it's somewhere between two and three years and look i hate that answer as much as you do it's true but i'm sure ellis allison can talk about getting sponsors when you have a niche audience but
A lot of people, if you're looking for the mattress people and the, you know, the better helps and all that stuff, you've got to have a decent size audience. And that takes a little more than six months. So it takes years and nobody wants to hear.
Yeah, you're not going to get big undies or big beds right from the start. That's it. It's true. And it's interesting because it's pretty comparable across like newsletter generation and sort of influencer. You have to commit to two to three years before you're getting. So any sort of creator first endeavor, you better make sure you care about it. Yeah. And every overnight success.
Absolutely. Yeah. Well, it's like Joe Rogan. Everybody talks about Joe Rogan. And I'm like, please realize that guy started in 19- you know and it took him like six years to get his first record deal and then once he was there then he's on not one not two but three different tv shows and i'm like If you want to do a podcast like Joe Rogan, step one is be Joe Rogan. And I'm like, how many people in the room are Joe Rogan? I thought step one was eat bugs. Isn't that how we started?
Does your podcast need to be on YouTube? Audio outperforms video 15 to 1. I think the best story of that, and Rob might tell you from Libsyn, Bill Maher started a video show. At that time, I worked at Libsyn and we're like, Bill, you should do audio too. And he's like, video or, you know, audio from audio. And we're like, no, no, really, you should do audio. Then he hired a PR team to only promote the video version. We talked him into the audio.
And a couple months later, he's checking his stats and the audio outperformed the video 15. And so I guess the thing that I just hear all the time is you have to be on YouTube. And what kills me is when someone will come up and they're like, I want to do this show. And they have this really tight niche. And it's a great idea. And they want to serve their audience. and i'm like amazing i'm like well what's stopping you from starting this let's go and they're like i don't want to do video
And I go, you don't have to do video. And they go, no, no, everybody says I have to do video. And I go, no, you know, like, no, no, everybody says I have to do video. And I go that everybody has a name and it's called YouTube. And I go, you know. TikTok's taken a little bit out of its advertising budget there. They're like, hey, like, you know, the execs at YouTube, like, we got to do something. Like, Larry, what do you got? Larry's like, I don't know. Podcasting's hot.
And so they're like, that's it. You're brilliant. And they went to all the YouTubers and they said, I dub thee a podcast. In fact, at Evolutions, they said that. Steve, the guy from Amplify Media. Yeah. Yeah. He said, well, if you take away the word podcast, because they were throwing out the question, should we lose the... he goes well if we take away the podcast then you're just a youtuber and i just wanted to scream out and what's wrong with that
Because then we can have YouTube stats and we can have podcast stats. But yeah. And then I looked into like, there's, I don't know, 4.5 billion. in terms of audience on YouTube, but there's 655 million or 65 million. I see this where I need my slides, but nutshell, there's more audience per creator.
in audio yeah that's a big deal yeah and people go well oh but dave what about what about the uh you know that algorithm and i'm like let's see that algorithm knows you because it's you know google they know you and it recommends things that you like and i go oh you know, and it's artificial intelligence that's going on. I'm like, yeah, great. I go, I have actual intelligence. My algorithm is called dub.
And he's known me my entire life, knows I love dark comedies and said, hey, there's this new movie out about you killed a unicorn. It's got Paul Rudd in it. Looks like it's right up your tree. And I went out, saw the movie, absolutely loved it. It was a hilarious movie. Yeah. And I was like, so, you know. Do we need the, they go, well, podcasting doesn't have an algorithm. Well, 70%.
of podcasts are discovered via word of mouth per jacobs media and that word of mouth in my case is called doug and i remember when cereal came out back in the day i had like six people go hey you're the podcast guy have you heard cereal yet So there is an algorithm. It's just not built in. It's humanity. Yeah. Yeah. Humanity. Exactly. I love it. So again, I just say.
There are so many people that just, I, oh, I need to be on YouTube, but they're really white knuckling. And I'm like, you don't have to be the, the podcast police are not going to knock on your door. You know, hello, Mr. Jackson. You're not. i understand you're doing audio but you're not doing video please come with me it's like no that's not gonna happen and when i help people
no, don't let that be something to hold you back because you don't want to be on video. I want to do my work in my PJs too. I do my best listening when I don't have to look at people. I do my best talking.
stay true to the medium that works for you if you're better do video you're better on audio don't let the fact that some youtube expert or whoever said that you needed to do that when that's simply not the case there's so many successful podcasters that have been doing it for many many years without video and i think that's going to stay the same because of the way Yeah, I looked at my consumption rates, and the highest I could get on YouTube, I believe, was 33%.
This is the exact same 90 minutes. It was the exact same show on audio and video. So the best I could get was 33. The worst I could get on audio was 70. so i'm like look if i want to go a mile wide an inch deep youtube all day long nothing wrong with that if i really want to have people listen to my stuff though audio and of course the best answer is both but again if you don't want to do video
Yeah. I wanted to circle really quickly back to the 15 to 1 ratio that you were alluding to, Dave. Yeah. Is that play all the way through? What is the 15 to 1? Oh, we're talking just general. See, this is where things get tricky because of you, especially a view on a short right now, is if I actually just barely click the button on a view on a short.
counted as a view yep so i believe when rob told me about it it was a view in youtube which i think is oh i forget it's either 15 or 60 seconds it's close to i but not quite. So it is, it's hard to compare apples to, to apples there because they are, you know, YouTube gives you more stats, but you have to kind of figure out, wait, this, this download, this isn't real. Yeah. So it's, it's a little trick.
But it's just one of those where, you know, I can't watch your video in the car. I can't watch the video while I'm doing the dishes or walking the dog, but I can listen to the podcast. That's true. I was also thinking about in terms of the developing those long-term relationships. for when you have to build over two to three years. And I think both the most recent studies from both, I think it was in Sounds Profitable.
some collateral that Triton put out that sort of like trustworthy or rather a sense of trust of the host in a given media type is obviously significantly higher with podcaster, which obviously if you're thinking about audio. monetization that follows deeper trust equals faster turnaround on the things that you do. I think there was another status.
like a sponsor host rate sponsorship and activity that happens versus seeing something on television television it took you know six weeks before there was an activity podcasting it was something like within 48 hours so something to be said for the depth of the
if you're really leaning into it and the ramifications there on audience and the ramifications subsequently on monetization. And I don't think they have the YouTube split out there, but I'm willing to bet that the numbers are not the same for YouTube in terms of things being recommended.
YouTuber versus someone who's developed this audio-based relationship over years. I'm speculating, but I... I always say, you know, record a couple episodes, then pick your schedule, whatever it is, and then stick to the schedule because then you're seeing Israelite. And then anytime you can make a point.
with a personal story so i mean this was years ago but when i was growing up muhammad ali was the heavyweight champ and he was kind of a hero of mine because he did a whole lot more than just boxing and stood up for what he believed in and went to jail and all sorts of stuff and so when he died i was kind of bummed and so i really didn't want to talk about podcasting that day but i still did and i said here are like five things every podcaster can
Ali. And it was like, he's totally unique. He was always marketing, you know, really talented, etc, etc. And so then I got emails from people going, hey, he's my champ too, Dave. So, you know, anytime you can kind of, you know, make a point with a personal story. That's great. So now they trust you, you're fun, and you've given them great information. Then when you say, oh, by the way, I have this book or a...
hire me to do this or that. It's not shooting fish in a barrel, but it's definitely a warmer lead than, you know, just buying an email. spamming everybody it's a little bit of the breaking whatever it is the fourth wall and whatever the expression is and they get to see you behind the veil which they don't get to see with broadcast them folks they get they don't see across most of the others yeah I did uh I started
I mean, probably four years ago, playing bloopers at the end of my show where my mouth just decided not to work. And I had so many people like, I'm so glad you did this. I thought you were perfect. I'm like, oh, far from it. You know, and so that's one of those things where, again. It's just a little thing to let people know this is what I'm doing. And, you know, anytime I make a mistake.
I had a member of the School of Podcasting said, Dave, do you know you have a typo in your show? And I'm like, which one? I got about four. And she's like, no, no, in the School of Podcasting. I'm like, Oh, what episode? And she's like, no, in the school of podcasting. And I'm like, what do you mean? And I go to it and there it is school of podcasting plan.
And I left out an E and I was like, well, there you go. Her name's Kim Newlove from the pharmacist voice. I go, you will be in every presentation I do from this point forward. I said, cause I tell people you need somebody.
outside to look at your stuff. Cause we miss it all the time. And that was one where I did. So I was gonna say, I love the blooper concept and you know, like there's like social proof there that that's working when you get things like up first in the morning, you know, whatever it is, number one or two podcasts there. One of them says something to the other about, are you even paying attention? We're about to start recording the show or they tease each other.
I definitely have a deep affinity for the both of them because of that or the NPR politics where they, you know, what are the five things you can't let go of at the tail end where you get to really know the personality. Again, you're not seeing that in most others. School of Podcasting. You also talked about inspiration and Muhammad Ali. So speaking of the combination of those two, what was the inspiration behind the School of Podcasting? What inspired you to do it? Why?
A friend of mine had come back from a big marketing event and he said, hey, this kind of dates me. He goes, do you know how you missed the MySpace? And I'm like, yeah, yeah, don't rub it in. He's like, I've seen the next big thing. And I go, what is it? And he goes, podcasting. And I happened to be sitting in a computer and I went to Google, I typed in podcasting and there was one and a half page.
wait, how do you spell it? He goes, it's POD casting. He's like podcast. I'm like, okay, typed it in again, one and a half results. I go, dude, I think we broke the internet. There's nothing on this topic. And at the time they were saying membership sites and podcasts are going to be the next big thing. Wow. And I had decided to go back to school. My original degree was in electronic engineering, but I had fallen into the training.
space. And then I lost that job and went to get another job in training. And they're like, we can't even talk to you without a teacher's degree. so i had to go back to school well the first time i went to school i was a waiter didn't want to do that again i was like i want to find something that can give me keep me in car insurance and books. And so I was like, well, this membership thing and podcast
is going to be the next big thing. And I'd seen so many things come and go, ooh, I should jump on that. And then I didn't. And I was like, you know what? I'm jumping in on this. I don't know what I'm doing. I'll figure it out. and so i jumped in and that's again the early days of were horrible. So I was also playing in a band, giving guitar lessons, building websites, and a couple other things to keep.
you know car uh gas insurance and books but uh yeah that's that's basically what started it and then the the one that really like wow i had taken a blog i i had done for musicians and i turned it into a And I'm going to say two weeks. I'm in the middle of nowhere.
And I get this voicemail from a guy. His name was Michael Van Laar. He's like, hello, Dave. This is Michael Van Laar from Nuremberg, Germany. And my brother's standing behind me. And he goes, did he say Nuremberg, Germany? And Mike, hold on. Hello, Dave. This is Michael Van Laar from Nuremberg. And Mike, wait, he's like, what?
And it took me a second to go, there's a dude that not only found my show on the other side of the planet, but he liked it. And so I just grabbed the flat. I hereby claim podcasting in the name of Dave, you know, and I was like, this is my jam. For me, you can be as creative as you want to be. There are really no rules. So that's kind of. And then I could help people. And so it's kind of interesting. You give a podcaster or you give a teacher.
a podcast they want to help people you give uh you know sales guy a podcaster they're going to want to sell people you know and it's just weird watching what everybody does with it because there's no wrong answers you can
But that's what really got me sucked in because I knew it was global. I remember when I uploaded my first episode and then it came down in this archaic software and I was like, oh, wait a minute, this is going to be global. And somewhere I have it, like either my first or second. where I go, I think podcasting is going to change the world. And 20 years later, here we are. There you go. So you really started in the infancy of podcasting. And I have people today saying,
Based on the stats we shared earlier, we're still in the beginning. The infancy. The infancy of this podcasting space. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, the running bumper sticker is the best time to start a podcast was in 2004. next best time was you know right now yay lucas yeah i mean if you look at tom brady the the great quarterback retired a couple years ago for the like for final he actually quit this time
And somebody's going to take his place. Somebody's going to be the next top quarterback in the NFL. So when, you know, whoever is, if you're like, well, I shouldn't start a podcast. because, you know, Dave Ramsey's the king of personal finance. Yeah, well, Dave Ramsey's going to retire.
And plus, not everybody likes Dave Ramsey. I mean, if you think about it, you know, if we if we just get rid of cable just for a second to think it's, you know, 1974, you know, there was ABC, NBC, CBS and maybe some. and they're all talking about the exact same thing it's like well today the president did such and such and blah blah blah so if we only needed one we'd only have one channel what's the point of having these other ones and it's a different point of view
with a host and now throw in cable. And you've got all sorts of channels talking about all sorts of things. And so, yeah, hop on in. The other thing I think that a lot of people miss is the skill set you get by being a podcast. at podcast movement evolutions the head of pod page was supposed to speak well he's got a two small children one's not even one and both the kids and his wife got really sick
And then he got the sniffles and he gave me like a day and a half notice. He's like, I don't think I'm coming. I can't leave my wife with two really sick kids.
he's like can you do my presentation and i'm like yeah no big deal and i'm like just send me your slides and he's like well that's the funny part because he was going to do them on the plane and so i said just loom give me a loom video of you kind of doing your presentation give me an outline and i'll take it from there and if that had been me 20 years ago i've been wetting my pants yeah for sure but i was like all right i got it and this and that
And it was only 20 minutes. So a 20 minute presentation now is like, I can do that. You know, I'll just pull it up. So that's the other thing that I think a lot of people forget is you get really good at being able to just come up with an idea and talk.
Yeah, I mean, even you being invited as a guest and having absolutely no context for what we were going to talk about on this show, you can comfortably do so as a guest, but you can probably invert it and you probably could interview me. 45 minutes just as well yeah absolutely i was thinking about in terms of school podcast This relationship between if you're a salesperson, you're selling sort of those examples you were giving. Is there a ideal student type for school podcast?
those that tend to excel and what does their journey look like for those that do? The thing I battle is not the technology, it's not the budget, it's not this, it's your brain. I have so many people stopped because of their brain.
was a member of the school of podcasting he flew in the air force like he was the guy that'd be flying and you'd come up and dock and fuel up your plane and he was in like afghanistan so he flew in like wartime stuff he had written a book and he was a uh keynote speaker so i'm like wait a minute you can speak you got content and you have What's the deal? And he was just afraid of looking stupid. And so I told him, I said, hey, give me your first.
and he sent it to me and i said you know this is really it's a good story it's a great concept i go but it's really obvious that you are I go, like, really obvious. I go, kind of go back. You don't have to be obnoxious DJ guy. I go, but add a little voice inflection, things like that. Send it to me, and I go, you know what? This is great. I said, I can only barely tell, and that's because I'm listening.
He said, hold on. Recorded it a third time. I said, I can't tell you're reading this at all. And he said, I'm not. I know the story now. He goes, maybe that's my workflow. So that's part of it. Yeah. And then the other one is when your need to serve. is greater than your fear of looking stupid, you will press record. Like an example, Zita Christian is a member of the School of Podcasting. She does a show called My Spouse Has Demented.
And she was just, she said, it's kind of weird because when people talk about, about dementia, it's like, oh, I lost my keys. Do I have dementia? And she goes, everything they showed on TV was just not even close to like. And she's like, somebody needs to talk about, let's talk about adult diapers. Let's talk about loss of control and all this other stuff. And so her whole thing was, I want to serve the people coming after me that just.
And so you kind of need that. I just need to talk about this factor. earlier and that's part of it the when you just like i want to talk about this that really does help because in the early days there's just not that many people And so there's that. And it's kind of interesting because on one hand, introverts, you would think.
make bad podcasters because we're all shy but introverts also really think about what they're going to say before they say it so and being an introvert a podcast is a great way to meet thousands of people Without meeting thousands of people. Yes. And every conversation is one-on-one, which introverts tend to like. And introverts are also good listeners, which means they're not just waiting for their turn to ask the question. Yeah. So yeah, it's probably very.
Yeah. So when I can hear the need to serve coming out more than what's the least amount I can do to make the most amount of money in the short term. Right. You know, she's got the wrong attitude, whatever's going on. But when I hear somebody go, yeah, I just, I've, I've got to talk about this. And there's so much in this thing happened this week. And I'm like, oh, why am I not recording this? That's the person that I'm like, okay, that, that person.
Right. It's that imposter syndrome. It's helping people, helping your clients overcome that belief that what they have to say doesn't matter. Right. Or someone else is already doing it. And I tell all my. Maybe someone else is doing it, but you're going to do it different. because you have your own unique set of skills that you've cultivated over the years. You have your own life experience. No one else has those.
You know, there are more people that need help than there are helping people. So if you are mission driven, instead of worrying about what they're going to think, worry about how many people you're not going to help if you don't.
kind of flips the script you know yeah i there's a great documentary on netflix about garth brooks and he's playing in new york city in the big park that's in central park and they gave him like the key to the city and he's got a platinum record and it's garth brooks day and all these accolades and he's absolutely convinced that this country boy is going to have nobody show up in the big
And at one point, his wife goes out and she comes back and he's like, don't tell me, don't tell me. She's like, Garth, they had to move the barricades. He's like, ain't nobody here, right? And she's like, no. And his tour manager comes in and he goes, Garth. there's 850,000 people out there. And he's like, what? You're telling me there's 850,000 people out there? He goes, no, Garth. I'm telling you there was 850,000 people there 20 minutes.
And so by the time the concert actually went down, it was almost a million people. And he was absolutely 100% convinced nobody was going to show up. Wow. And I was like, there you go. Imposter syndrome. Chills. Yeah, from one of the greatest. So let's see if they get past the impossible. And they are committed and they are releasing episodes.
consistent spaces because their fans are expecting consistency out of them do they still tend to run into any common category of mistakes that prevent them from sort of moving from the consistency layer
producing actually good content maybe from a planning and interview whatever their structure happens to be are there is there are there some common themes that occur for for these audiences and how they get past those yeah it's first it's nobody's going to listen to me and then they put out a couple episodes
And after a month and a half, they're like, I've got 50 downloads this episode. And I'm like, hey, congratulations. I go, if that was 60, that'd be three classrooms. I go, that's half a hallway in my old school where I used to teach. And then they start to freak out because they're like, wait. People are actually listening to me. So they've gone from nobody's going to.
uh to oh my gosh people are listening yeah and then they start to freak out and i'm like look you got that audience by being yourself and doing what you're doing so continue to do what you're doing Just it's going to take a while for it to grow. You know, be sure to tell them to tell a friend because word of mouth again and make it easy. Do not say find me wherever you find your podcast.
Please, please, please, please stop saying that. So, Mike, I'll give you an example. If you want to follow the show, it's free. Go to schoolofpodcasting.com. Number one, reinforces your brand. Number two, easy to remember. Number three, why do I have to go find your show? Why is your show lost? It's there and what people don't realize. as somebody who worked at libsyn and tech support for eight years i had people on at least two a month it would say i'm typing in the exact name
and my show is not coming up. I think there's an example on my YouTube channel. I'm looking for, I think it's Home Repair Pros, right? Pretty obvious name, sounds good. It's got home repairs, got a keyword in there. Type it in, nothing shows up. And I go in, I'm like, oh, wait a minute. And Mark Maron's in there. Like, why is Mark Maron showing up for Home Repair Pros? And I go, it's not in here. It's just not showing up. And then you search for the author.
And comes right up. And I go, this is why you don't want to say find me because not all people can be found for whatever reason. Those algorithms are not. we think and I'm like and when you get them to your website oh what else is there oh your newsletter and anything else you're trying to sell them reinforce your brand not Apple and Spotify because Spotify is a walled garden they're not going to let people out of
And so every time I hear that, another one is rate and review as it helps us get found. It's social proof. That is absolutely 100% true. But Apple has come out and said it does not help you. It's like subscribers help you, you know, rank higher. So maybe not rate and review, but follow the show. And so, but yeah, every time I hear that, like a single tear will fall out of my right ear when I'm like, just find me wherever you find me.
It's almost like you're a different business. You're like, and you can find me on Google. Yes. You're not giving any brand authority. You're not creating brand. you're not none of those things just find me on the internet yeah interwebs right i'm there somewhere you can find me in all the search engines being you know google ask jeeves if that's still so i love it yeah i uh it's somewhere in they finally just came out and said, this does not help you up the rankings.
yep hallelujah so i want to continue this trajectory dave so we got like your ideal customer or rather student in class things that they're doing well where they go from imposter to omg people are actually listening to this I have to think about what I'm saying to avoiding those sort of mistakes that help them, you know, ideally help with discoverability, which gets them to actually get an audience. All right, they're starting to get this going. I've authored this.
manifesto of sorts called profit from podcasts. What do I need to know about monetization? Because I've made it through each of those sort of like step functions over the sort of journey of the life cycle of a podcast. Yeah. So number one, you monetize an audience, not a podcast. So step one, get an audience. Step two, solve a problem.
Because people typically don't just go, hey, I've got 20 bucks in my pocket that, I don't know, I don't need it. Here, just take it. I don't know what you're doing, but here. People don't just give away. So a lot of times, obviously, it's books, it's courses, it's consulting, it's, you know, whatever it is, a community, things like that. But in some cases, it's, hey, you made me laugh and I had a horrible day after work. And you do that on a...
So you're solving a problem. But if it's just like, hey, look at me. I'm a nice guy. You know, I don't I try not to lie. I think I'm OK. You know, give me money because I'm a nice guy. That usually, you know, that usually doesn't work. So that's really what I've found is that, you know, when you solve a problem, whatever it is, and like I say, it could be, you just made me laugh or you know what? I like listening to your show because I have to think.
And I'm tired and I want to grab a glass of wine on my, I want to get home and I just want to sit and not think you are great. Now that sounds weird. Like you're just great. I just put you on in the background and I'm kind of listening, but I'm kind of not. And I need that. you're solving a problem. I remember I was at Podcast Movement, I think, and there was somebody, it was a comedy.
And they said there are times when that's their purpose is we don't want you to think. We don't want to talk about things where you're like, wait, I got to take notes. But the bottom line is you got to solve a problem. And usually it's I'm going to save you time or money. Or, you know, you pay for medicine and everything else. So anything that can make you feel better.
you'll do that but when it's just like oh hi i did this and it took me 10 hours and i think i deserve money for the time i spent well that's in the eye of you know the person And we appreciate the time you took to put into it. If I'm making meatloaf and I invite Allison, she's going to be like, thanks, but do you have a vegan option? And I'd be like, oh, and all of a sudden I didn't know who my audience is. And I worked really hard on that meat.
But my audience doesn't want it because I got the wrong audience. So you have to know who your audience is. I always say you figure out why am I doing. You don't get your why. You're going to burn out. Who is this for? And then when you overlap them, that's your what. What am I going to talk about to educate or entertain the who while moving them towards my why?
And at Podcast Movement Evolutions, a good friend of mine, Paul Culligan from podcastpartnership.com, he said, oh, I just asked, what do you want the podcast to do? And I'm like, I am so barred. Because it really does summarize it all in one. What do you want this to do? Do you want it to grow your network? Do you want it to bring you customers? Do you want to help people? Whatever it is, what do you want the podcast to do? It's a vehicle. Yeah. And it could be, I mean, I do a show.
maybe once every three months called building a better Dave. It is my $7 therapy. That's it. It's just me putting out my thoughts. You know, anytime something happens or whatever, and I'm like, well, this is weird. I didn't think, and I just want to talk about it. And I'm like, all right, well, I just put it out there. And I mean, I'm lucky if I get 70 downloads. thing because it's not very consistent. It's really weird, you know, but on the other hand.
That's the audience that if I haven't put out an episode in a couple months, they're like, hey, what is the next Better Dave coming out? And I'm like, I don't know. Nothing's going on in my life. We'll go outside, do something. Come back with the story. I had told you we're not going to talk about 2005 to 2025 however we've been talking about this journey of school podcasting let's say I'm a podcaster who's made it beyond I'm at 4, 5, 10 in Allison's case.
What separates those that make it from year three to year 10? Are there common themes there as well that you've noticed across observing, helping, building shows? Yeah, they're focused on their audience. Those people aren't checking their stats every 20 minutes because I hate to, you know, looking at your stats.
It just doesn't. It's the watch pot. But looking at your audience does. And those people have also just figured out. I just interviewed Ray Arnott from the Around the Layout podcast. So that's a model train podcast. So we're talking to me. trains and ray is like it's about having the right people listening not having this giant audience but the right people
listening to it. And if there's only X amount of, I think he said there were 350,000 model train enthusiasts. He's like, okay, so if I can get 5% that would be amazing you know and but he's getting paid he's got sponsors and such and he's getting paid to talk about model trains well he would talk about model trains for free anyway yeah yeah and so those people have really figured out what their audience they've kind of, cause like year one.
You're not very good. You're not very confident. You're still figuring out the microphone. By year two, you found your voice and you're starting to grow an audience. By year three, your audience is starting to tell their friends. So by year 10, you've got a nice, you know, kind of momentum. And I think that's what keeps you going. Plus, if you were smart, all those times when somebody said. your podcast is life-changing or whatever it was that they said, you've kept them.
Because there are going to be those days when you go to fire up the mic and you're like, I don't really want to do this today. And then you look and you're like, oh, I totally forgot about Jill. And, you know, all these people that are saying that. And, you know. The other thing I think those people do is without like burning themselves out, they have some sort of system to capture.
Because that's one of the things that burns you out. Like I use a tool called NoteJoy. I used to use Evernote until they quadrupled their price, but I love NoteJoy. And I don't know what it is about the shower. I think because we're...
thinking we're just enjoying the heat and we're kind of relaxing that you come out of the shower you're like oh you know it'd be a good idea and i'm like wait let me dry my hands and get to my phone because those are the times when you're like i got nothing for the show
and then you go to whatever you're using it could be a you know pad and pencil but you look down you're like oh yeah there's a good so that keeps the ball rolling because i know any show i've ever stopped it was because it became too hard to do because i was running out of content or Babies also are the nemesis of podcast.
i love babies but they're really if you ever think about it they're really selfish it's all about them feed me wipe me you know and then you're like they don't understand when you're like daddy's trying to record a podcast and they're sleeping or crying or whatever So sometimes your life changes that will cause you to change gears on the podcast. But the ones that keep going usually have that, again, true.
They're seeing results or whatever their why is, they're getting it, whether it's money or just I'm helping people. Or if we look at Jen Briney, she's helped people change the way they vote.
knowledge you know now she's got a great community over there but you know we all have different whys and when we get our why we keep going and if we don't we get frustrated and quit you actually brought up a word that i was the unit of dropping it i wanted to add it community so i often think about like analytics versus audience versus community and that there's almost like looking at those numbers numbers mean maybe something maybe they don't
And community might mean something. Do you differentiate between audience and community in terms of thinking about those and staying power of shows and connecting with whether the audience or the become community? Yeah, I think the audience. Unfortunately, it's kind of a one-way conversation, right? You're putting information out and a few of them will trickle back and say, that was great. The community is the true power, and that's probably another thing.
podcasters that are still podcasting 10 years in they have some sort of community whether it's a facebook group or heartbeat or whatever you're using circle because when you can get your community to talk to each other then you just sit back and walk
And like, oh, look, look what they're, oh, they're all talking about this. Oh, I know what I'm doing for my next episode. And you put it into your note joy account. And then you watch again and this and that. And then you can also, and this is something I think that really good podcasts are good at. is being able to pull back the curtain, put on a little extra set of skin and go, all right, guys, I need you to listen to this.
like let me know what's good about it but i also need to know if this is too long or too boring or whatever i interviewed Jack from the Darknet Diaries. And the guy was getting like 300,000 downloads an episode. I go, how are you doing that? And he went to, he had a group of people before he launched.
And then tell me how far did you listen? If you didn't listen all the way, how far did you get? And why did you stop? And then he would ask them on a scale from one to 10, how likely are you to share this with a friend? And he said, if I got below a seven, I'd go back. Because he wanted it to be like, oh man, I'm going to, he wanted eights and nines, you know, if not a 10.
And I said, okay, great. And I'm like, but how do you grow your audience? Like, what's your strategy? Is it social? Is it what? And he's like, oh, at the end, I slowly and specifically and confident. ask my audience to share the show. And so I listened and he was, you know, Hey, today we talked about whatever the topic was. If you know somebody else that would like this, could you do me a favor? Could you just go to your phone and share that with that one friend?
He goes, and what's great, they're going to think you're awesome because you gave them this great content. And he goes, and I'm going to grow my audience. Or he could just tell them to go to Dark. And I was like, okay, great. What else do you do, Jack? And he's like, that's it. And I was like, what? Now, granted, he had been podcasting more than six months, but then I listened to other people. And we all feel salesy when we start to promote.
and i would i mean honest i'm kind of making fun but kind of not i'd hear people like hey uh you know you kind of if you want to you don't have to yeah but you know you could i tell tell a you know friend or whatever my website dot com uh okay And I was like, what was that? And I had a friend of mine. I'd known her about six months, and I helped her start a podcast. It had been about another, I don't know, three to six months. And I'm like, hey, how?
she's like oh it's going great she goes but i'm not really getting any speaking gigs and i go speaking i'm like hold on i go i've known you you know almost a year I didn't know you do speaking gigs. And she goes, oh yeah, I spoke to a bunch of high school kids in the Bronx last week. And I'm like, oh, I go, I've never heard you mention that. And she said, well, I kind of feel.
And I go, oh, like a used car salesman? And she goes, exactly. And I go, and they're selling you a bucket of bolts? And she goes, yep. And I go, so your podcast is a bucket of bolts? And she goes, no, I probably work 12 hours. And I go, and it helps people. And she goes, yeah. And I go, so why are you stopping yourself from helping?
You're good. And I said, but I said, look, it doesn't have to be, you know, this Sunday, Sunday, Sunday kind of thing. I said, just start off your next podcast with, I was in the Bronx last weekend talking to a bunch of high school kids and this one young. and asked me a question. And I thought, that'd be a great topic for a podcast. I go, there you go. There's your commercial, your audio.
that you do speaking gigs i go i occasionally will throw in a story and like i was working with a client i go everybody knows or i was working with a member of the school of podcasting and there are little ways you can do this without having to beat Yeah, it goes back to the vehicle and what you're trying to get out of the show. Right. And if it's getting speaking engagements and you don't make it clear that you even do speaking engagements, how are you going to get that like positive KPI?
Yeah, I have a, you know, a lot of people use dynamic content for ads. I have, you know, an ad for where am I going to be speaking? And at the end, I'm like, hey, I'm going to be speaking at Podcast Movement in August. Dallas or wherever it is, you know, if you would like me to speak at your online or offline event, simply go to schoolwithpodcasting.com contact. And so it's, it's letting people know where I'm going to be. Cause number one, the event.
promoting their stuff so hopefully they'll ask me back because you know we had two people that we hired for this one guy promoted it every week and the other person didn't so you know they'll remember that and then hopefully somebody will be like well this guy's had this and this and that and hopefully they'll be like how much do you charge to come talk you know that's the best email ever yeah for sure i was gonna circle back really quickly to the one thing you also said
the confident request to have them share with a friend given the stats that we gave earlier around word of mouth. most dominant form of identifying content, liking it on a random rating service isn't going to do anything relative to telling your friend or your boss or your wife or whatever it happens to be. So maybe just doubling down on that.
is a really clear point. It really is. And I can't reach out to JimMom37. You know what I mean? I'm like, I can see it in Apple. I'm like, JimMom37 said, I love this show. Love the host. So funny. And I always learn something. Thanks, JimMom37. You know, I can't continue that conversation with her unless she, you know, later.
you know reaches out or something but that's i love reviews they're great you know and you know again it's social proof and if somebody finds a show and another show and this one has 37 reviews and this one has two I might go to the 37 one first. So I get.
totally poo-pooing reviews i just they they don't have different value yeah it doesn't increase the community where when you have that community you have the back and forth and you can ask them the questions and get that reflected back to you so you can create for them what it is they want which then can eventually lead to what everyone that comes to me anyways wants which is the monetization piece which is based on people knowing you liking you trusting you believing in what you have to offer
right right for sure and and i'm sure allison you run into this you need to know that up front Like, don't podcast for two years and then go, oh, by the way, I want to monetize now. It would have been a little easier if we had known that up front. But everybody's like, I don't know what the deal is, the mindset. They're like, well, I want to do this and I love this topic and I really want to serve my community.
I wouldn't mind making a little bit of money. Say it out loud and be proud. I want to monetize. And if you do monetize, it's going to help you continue to do this show longer and you're going to get. full time profession ideally and things like that. So you if you don't ask if you don't monetize Yeah. You alluded to a number of tools along the way. So we'll call them the progenitors.
sort of cap cut and these tools for creating clips obviously you have the relationship you have with pod page can do there in terms of support and contact and community are there tools now whether ai whether automation whether you know, better recording? Are there things that you think are benefiting podcasting right now or imminently that you're excited about?
and untelling through school podcasting or otherwise hey folks do these things and it may be that hey it's tried and true it's the same thing we've been doing since 1988 when joe rogan started his career or it's something new Yeah, there are products now made for podcasters. The one I have in my hand is a Zoom PodTrack P4. I can record four people in the same room or I could bring somebody in via Zoom. I can actually.
phone into this if i wanted to it's got building i mean it's and what's weird is i don't know seven years ago this was probably a grand somewhere between one and two thousand dollars and now it's 150 bucks now it's plastic i don't want to throw this against the ground it's not the same as the old It was for filmmakers. Yeah, absolutely. So that's getting easy. The thing I kind of always...
When we get to CapCut and all this AI tools, I think it's interesting because I just did this. I went to, I forget what tool I was using. I'd written my own kind of article and I had it add some stuff and it added two things that didn't exist. And I was like, ooh, there's a little trigger for my integrity. If I put that out right now, people are going to go Google podcast. Dave, that was killed about a year and a half ago. Right. So I cut it out.
and added my own stuff in there. And then I went to Buffer. And I said, hey, I just wrote a blog post. this topic uh yada yada you gotta make a you know social post and what did it put in the two things i just cut out And I thought it was really interesting because I'm like, it was almost not identical, but it was very close. And I'm like, if the goal of your podcast is to be a thought leader, you might want to use your own thoughts on that one. Yeah. Because otherwise we're all going to.
We're all just going to sound like each other. Homogenization. Yeah. I'm a fan of taking something I've written, throwing it into insert your AI tool of choice. Right now I'm using Claude.
of cool and i'll be like here's this thing here's my audience and literally this is the extensive you know uh prompt that i put make this better and it does and i'll sometimes i'll say make this better and keep my voice yes and then i'll be like okay much better yeah um but i am a little worried that we're all just gonna you know, all pull from the same well and say the same thing. And so I tell people, I'm like, lean into the
because at least at this point, ChatGPT isn't going, let me tell you about the time I lost my wallet. You want to lean into those stories because that builds that personal connection with you. to when there's comedians and someone says, you know what, they stole my joke. maybe they heard it and it was in the zeitgeist and then later they made it their own without knowing it maybe they stole it but the point is talk about your own family your own
your own life, in your jokes, in your content, because then no one can ever accuse you of stealing it or chat GPT-ing it, which I see so much chat GPT-ing created media now. And it's so obvious. I'm like, y'all don't know how- Yeah. I could delve into that right now and do a deep dive. And yeah, exactly. A deep dive and it's just a game changer. I'm like, never use. Most innovative. Yes, with my rocket ship emoji. Yeah, there's a media host that I won't name.
They have an article about the discoverability problem in pie. discoverability problem since the 90s and I'm like it sure did because it didn't exist yet kids that is a discoverability problem and and then I looked at it and I was like oh wait a minute this blog post is generate a slop yeah so be careful with that so be careful of the tools yeah use them but don't it should be like assisted intel
Yeah. Not, you know, like I love to brainstorm with chat GPT. Sometimes it'll, it'll pick up something. I'm like, Oh yeah, I hadn't thought. But in terms of writing it, again, consider the sort I type. So I don't and I'm creative. So I don't have a problem writing an article. It doesn't take that long. And then I'll throw it in. I'm like, hey, make this better.
right yeah but it's the person it's like hunting and pecking and they're like i don't know what to talk about like yeah be careful with that i think an extension that i've found of sort of variant of yours is i've created what i intend on talking about Are there gaps that would be interesting? So it's you asking questions, perhaps, or are there things I should be thinking? Can you get it to reflectively listen back to you or ask it a question that asks you?
Like it generates a thing that comes back with 10 questions that you should be considering. Is your goal to monetize? You forgot to say this thing. You know, like what are the things I... Well, and I've never understood because I've offered it in many different forms to review your show. And I don't know why, but most podcasts.
They think when I say, well, I'll do an audit of your show, they think I'm just going to bash it for a half hour. And I'm like, no, there's probably some things you're doing right. But, you know, like I said, I had a typo in my show. There's probably something you're missing. So if that's the case.
You just, you don't want to have another person look at it. Take a transcript of your show, throw it into some AI tool and go, what were the main topics of this? What were the takeaways? And then ask, how could I have improved? And almost always it's like, well, there are quite a few tangents in here that could have been. So you might be able to get some feedback from.
you know a robot and you got to again keep that with a grain of salt because there's no nostalgia they're not going to feel nostalgic and they don't really have a sense of humor but you might get some insights i know i did that once with a show i do with daniel j lewis called of podcasting. And it said, you guys use a lot of jargon without explaining it. And I was like, you know what? That's a valid point. We do. But we kind of know our audience is a bunch of nerds.
was like you know we could throw in a quick explanation so that's another tool in terms of like here's another way we could use this that actually might be beneficial 20 years in podcasting, what continues to excite you about podcasting? Or is there anything new that excites you about?
come out of the ether of the last 12 months or 24 months things change it's it's really the same thing that got me going i mean in the early days marcy rosenbaum called me on the phone back then i had my phone number on my website i don't do that But she called me. She said, I want to start a podcast, but I can't do it because I hate. And I'm like, okay, we can definitely do this. I'll get you through it. And I remember her calling me crying.
When, again, we're back in the days of iTunes and she called me, she's like, I'm in iTunes. And I'm like, yeah, I remember I walked you through submitting it. I know, but I'm in iTunes. And I go, yeah. And she goes, no, I called you. I said, I couldn't do it. He's like, I'm in iTunes. That puts so much gas in my tank when I take somebody who says I can't do it and I go, yes.
That's really, I mean, I like making money with my podcast. When I have somebody that, you know, a member of the school of podcasting does a fine. ask Ralph. He just got a gig with Intuit doing videos. A guy, Brad Miller does cancer and comedy and a guy from USC and I forget another really famous college that works with cancer. you know they're getting all these opportunities and i didn't do it but my my thumbprint's in there a little bit and so that's uh that always puts
I love it. All right. I'm going to hit you with some rapid fire questions as we're wrapping. you ready for this rapid fire is my my achilles heel but i will try we'll edit it so afterwards it looks like it's rapid fire how about that excellent hey stop giving me jobs here last show you bet
Severance on Apple TV. Does that count? It's not really a podcast, but that's the last thing I binged. There we go. That works too. Can we go, can we take a quick tangent? Yeah. Sure. We keep hearing people have short attention space. Okay. Why do we have the word binge? Yeah. Hmm. That's a good point. It's not that we have short attention spans. We have a better antenna for when people.
Ooh. Okay. Next rapid fire. What's one thing you would automate forever? Laundry. I hate laundry. There's an app for that. Yeah, I'm trying to think about it in podcasting. Show notes. I think we all hate writing. I don't mind writing. i'm tired it's done show notes i got i got a tool for you go to www.deepcast.pro okay speaking of selling things okay yeah here we go metadata underrated or
When you say metadata, are you talking about ID3 tags or? Whatever it means to you, but it could be show notes. It could be title. SEO ramifications on your website? Oh, titles. Again, while I have one tear coming out of this eye, when somebody says, find me wherever you find me. episode 16 i just go oh you're killing me or or um they'll have the name of the show you know school of podcasting episode 16 interview with and they ran So yeah, titles are huge.
Show notes, I think, are good. Show notes, you don't have to go crazy. And that's why, speaking of selling, when you use PodPage, you can put in like a paragraph to describe, hey, should I listen? and then put your links to whatever you talked about. And then once PodPage sucks it into your website, now I can add more stuff there because now I'm in the land of Google. So my show notes are typically shorter.
yeah that's true so and i think that's what i meant by metadata at large is you have your show but ideally you are also hosting an authoritative uh brand equity website so you're doing things with your metadata there that helps with discovery That's right. It's not a, I always bring up the, you know, Kevin Costner, you know, if you build it, they will come. No, no, this is a case where you can build it and you can be a listener of one yourself. Maybe mom. Yeah, maybe.
podcast hill you would die on i try not to because i'm never gonna win it but i'm sorry youtube is not a podcast if you don't i i'm an old curmudgeon no rss feed no Yeah. And, and the reason I care, cause I know the audience doesn't care. I know, but, and it's when I'm standing at podcast movement and they're giving me stats and they're calling it a podcast, they go, that's not really.
And it's measured completely different. So it shouldn't be called a podcast. I'm like, so that's the one on occasion. Somebody will say something and I'll go, well. It's ruining stats, and that's why I care. I know the audience doesn't care, and they just want to click. I'll die on the hill with you. I know that Allison has been waiting for this question the entire show. Allison, hit him with your favorite. Well, Dave, I know you as a musician as well as a podcaster. We've been going.
play we've got the guys on the drums we've got you on the guitar we're having so much fun and your show is musical because you have the ladies that open the school of podcasting you close every show with the king's x song so if podcasting had Hmm. What would be my theme song? Matthew West, because I tried to license this song, has a song. Now, he's a Christian artist, but the song is called Everybody Has Something.
And I heard that and I was like, oh man, if I could just get like the chorus and play it at the end. And I reached out to them and this was again, 15, whatever that album. And they wanted something ridiculous, like $300 per episode. And I was like, that's a little too rich for my blood. But yeah, so that would probably be, that's a good one. I love it. Well, we'll see if we can get to the right. Just kidding. I'm sure we can't afford it. All right. Dave, it was great having you here.
to podcasting, they should definitely check out schoolpodcasting.com and listen to the school podcast. And not wherever you get your pods, but in fact, schoolpodcasting.com slash follow, I'm assuming. So go to that place, people. Is there anywhere else that you want them to find you? Should be listening to you?
If you want to, on occasion, somebody would go like, wait, how many shows do you have? If you want to see all things Dave, go to powerofpodcasting.com. That's got all my other shows. It's got my book on there and, you know, all sorts of fun stuff. All right. And final shout out for Dave from myself. When I started in this crazy area, I thought it was crazy 10 years ago. You're one of the first people who I started listening to. So I just wanted to give you a shout out and a thank you.
oh thanks always fun to work with allison come on well we're gonna do your nutrition next that's it amen all right thanks for coming on the uh coming on sound strategy uh here with allison and myself thanks for having me Thanks for tuning in to Sound Strategy with me, Lucas Dickey. Find everything from today's episode at soundstrategy.fm. Transcripts, takeaways, key quotes, and links to all of your favorite podcasts.
I hope you enjoyed our deep dive into the wild world of podcasting today. Check our show notes for all guest details and contact info. Sound strategy wouldn't exist without these amazing guests. So a huge thank you. And most importantly, thank you, my podcast obsessed friends for listening. Come back next week for another edition of sound strategy with Lucas Dickey.