What’s Wrong with ‘You People’?

Push it. I'm khalil Ja Bron Muhammad.

I'm Ben Austen. We're two best friends, one black, one white.

I'm a historian and I'm a journalist. And this is some of my best friends.

Are Some of my best friends are black, White, Jewish Muslim. In this show, we wrestle with.

The challenges and the absurdities of a deeply.

Divided and unequal country. And today we're talking about inter racial and inter religious love on the big screen.

I don't know about you, Ben, but so many people have asked me over the past several weeks. Are we going to talk about the Netflix movie you people?

Oh, my gosh, so many. It's a movie that came out earlier this year. It's starring Jonah Hill and Eddie Murphy among many great actors, and it's written by Jonah Hill and Kenya Barris of Blackish fame.

That's right, and this is a movie that is I mean, the opening line in this movie could not be more appropriate for.

You and me.

Yo, yo yo, Welcome to the Mowing Easy Show. I'm mow into my left is my favorite jew with nothing to do, My boy easy.

All right, man. So, Jonah Hill's character Ezra he does a podcast. Two hosts, a gem doing a podcast with one white. It's about race and culture in America. And listen, as we speak, Pushkin lawyers are out there. They are going after Netflix to make sure that we get paid.

That's right, because they stole our idea. They built a whole show, a whole movie around I knew it.

I knew they would steal that.

But no, seriously, this movie comes at a really interesting time in the country. I mean, we're somewhere in between the Trump era, the Biden era and what comes next. And as so often is the case, you know, this is a movie with a plaud It's an interracial rom com, but it's a rom com within this bigger social moment.

And so of course you said, you said it's an interracial rom com, and I just want to say, there's a white man and a black woman they fall in love. But even more than that, or in addition to that, the white dude, Ezra is Jewish, the black woman is Muslim, so it's an inter religious rom com.

Also, it's like an interracial inter religious rom com.

How about that man last ensue.

Yeah, So, as I was saying, and good point. As I was saying like, here is this mashup of relationships that are meant to show the boundaries of our existing society, to show the segregation that we still all live with, even for people like you and me, Even our communities here are represented as being sort of narrow and parochio and not really able to see the fullness of the other side.

And this is where movies are really powerful because they show us ourselves and sometimes we even laugh at ourselves, but they're these cultural artifacts, these touchstones. We're able to understand all those boundaries and how to cross them by seeing versions of it on the screen or on our televisions.

That's right, So guess what we're going to talk about. We're going to talk about how well to some degree this movie helps us see ourselves, and to what degree there are these antecedents and other movie stories that unpack a similar topic.

How are we going to do this today, Khalil, So in.

The first half, we're going to talk about white black romance. We're going to talk about two people falling in love and basically how American history and society and most especially their parents get in the way, like all the racial baggage that gums up the true love story at the heart of you people.

Let's call lets what should we call that first half?

Well, let's call it Guess Who's coming to dinner?

All right?

All right, all right? And then the second part. I mean, I have a lot of experience with that first part that you're describing. But the second part, let's explore the black say more, in the second part, let's explore the black and Jewish dynamics. All right, let's look at the

Net's player.

That's right, he's on the Dallas Mavericks now because you know, Brooklyn was way too Jewish for him, Like he tweets about, you know, endorsing a movie that makes these claims about the Holocaust now not happening, and about Jews being involved

Oh oy oy OOI all right?

So, like even the title you People is is like coded kind of racism and often like unintentional bigoted phrase like hey you people. It's a lot like some of my best friends are. It's perfect movie for us to talk about right here, here is the breakdown of what happens in You People. And there're gonna be a few spoiler alerts, but you need to know some of the plot and what happens in it for us to talk about it for this to make sense.

Right.

So, Jonah Hill's Ezra and Lauren London's Emrah they meet cute in Los Angeles?

What does me cute mean?

Now?

You know what's yes, you do, man, that's every that's every rom com you meet in a funny way, and you know, you get connected. And then they go on this date and the date, you know, there's a montage. You know, it lasts for hours, they talk into the night, and then it jumps ahead six months and they're living together. And you know, in my opinion about this movie, these two actors, Jonah Hill and Lauren London, they have zero chemistry.

But can I say something about this just for a second. There is an important thing that brings them together, right, which is quote unquote the culture. The culture, and in that way, the culture being you know euphemism for black culture hip hop. Yeah, they share this in common. So they both hit kind of hip hop heads. They're both

See. See you're already like codd on me. He's not just some Jewish dude. This is already messed up. We're already like you're black and Jewish from Chicago. So more plot. It's all going, well, they're living together. Then Ezra's like, I want to take this another step further. I'm in love. I want to marry her. But two people white and black, they don't exist in a cultural irracial bubble. They have

Yes, you're right, these are the things that are going to keep people apart. So much so that this whole story around what the parents are capable of. Hearkens back to a film over fifty years ago called Guess Who's Coming to Dinner. It is, in many ways the precedent for this story. This is a film with a bang up cast of character. Sidney Potier, that's right.

You're like, you're like out here, like I am the Hollywood reporter, a bang up cast.

Yes, your auditioning, oh man whatever, Spencer, Tracy, Sidney Poitier, Catherine Hepburn as the mother of the white daughter who who they're worried about marrying Sidney Poitier. Isabelle Sanford appears here as Tilly the maid, and then introducing a woman named Catherine Houlton, who is the main character, who is the white woman who is gonna marry Sidney Poitier. This movie comes out in late nineteen sixty seven. It's just six months after the Loving versus Virginia Supreme Court case.

That is so amazing to think about. So a movie about interracial marriage comes out right after the Supreme Court says it's now legal for black and white people to get married.

That's right, which had been banned across the South and most particularly. The film says in the film, in the writing of the script says, sixteen or seventeen states would object to you guys getting married.

So that on that movie.

Yeah, man, it's amazing the pressing issue, like the weight of the world, is happening in the context of this film. So here's a quick story. These two fall in love, as they say, in twenty minutes. They both happen to be in Hawaii. Sidney Poitier plays this epidemiologist. He's a world renowned public health doctor. And it's not clear what the character Joey is actually doing for a living. But she's twenty three years old. She's young, she's exploring the world.

I'm all into this because I've seen this at some point, but I've totally forgotten it.

So I'm down, yes, And the mother, Katherine Hepburn, shows all of these faces of consternation and concern, but in the end it is clear that she's okay with this. And so the story is about getting on board at.

Some nineteen sixties white liberals they want to you know, this is in the civil rights moment. They want to embrace this idea of interracial marriage, that it's okay, that's right.

And so at some point the dad is being called out by this priest who's like one of his best friends. Monsignor Ryan shows up and he has this really powerful line. He says, you know something, I'm surprised at you. Says, you know what, You're just some broken down, phony liberal who has to come face to face with your own principles.

You know.

He says, there is some reactionary bigot trying to get out in you. And I'm like, oh snap, that is such a powerful resident line, right. That is the line that in many ways you people plays with. It's like this notion that liberals are all cool with everything until it's their own kid. This movie reserves, though the most strident critiques of this relationship, for the black character played by Isabel Sandford. The maid Tilly, She is the one who has given the responsibility in this film for our

You may think you're fooling Miss Joy and her folks, but you ain't fooling me for a minute. You think I don't see what you are. You're one of those smooth talking, smart ass niggas just out of all you can get with your black power and all that other trouble making nonsense. You bring any troubling in and you just like to find out what black power really mean.

Wow.

So that is a really powerful statement. And in many ways, Sidney Poitier's black parents, who are eventually invited to dinner, never really articulate their objections they're placed on this maid. But in the end, this story resolves itself with the father coming around because he's ultimately challenged by his wife

That's so interesting. It sounds like a lot of the movie is focused on the parents rather than on the young people and their dynamics. What we were saying before about society being represented by the parents.

That's right, all right, we're going to take a break.

All right, all right, so we are we are fifty years later. Now we're you know, nineteen sixty seven. Guess who's coming to dinner? And now we're at you people. You know, interracial love has been legal for more than half a century. What does you people have to say about this story about interracial love that's different.

Well, first thing, it's like a world made by Lewis far Kahan and the Black power movement.

Well you meant, well.

The signpost in this film of like what blackness is is embodied in the character of Eddie Murphy. The father of the main character. Eddie Murphy's name is ackbar Amira's father. That's right, Eddie Murphy's name is Akbar, and of course he's changed his name like so many radicals in the nineteen sixties and seventies, from Woody from Woody.

The first time we see him, he's walking in. He's wearing a Fred Hampton was murdered t shirt. That's right, former Black Panther leader. And so he's coming and he is all of the signifiers of being a black radical, that's right.

And to my mind, he's the closest thing as importing the voice of Tilly played by Isabelle Sandford into this story. He's the most unreasonable person in this story, so much so that he actually blames his wife's white grandfather, who apparently was some light scanned dude, for like polluting the bloodstock of his light scanned daughter. Let's listen to this clip where Akbar is leaning over to his wife to blame her for this whole fiasco.

There's your white granddaddy, come back and haunt me.

What that nigga never liked me?

And it started off by him putting them strong ass jeans in you that lighten up the coffee, and my babies are you?

Then he planted a poison pill in my little baby girl, and.

It has grown into this white boy that invited us to lunch at Roscoe Man. All right, Eddie Murphy, h what's interesting you're saying that he sort of is voicing Tilly from guess Who's coming to dinner? But he's also the white dad because in this movie, he's the one that's opposed to this marriage. He's the one that's opposed to the union of black and white. And we get Ezra's parents embodied by Julia Luis Dreyfus, you know, from Veep and from Seinfeld. She plays Shelley Khane, and she

There's this early moment where she says something like, you know, we're going to become a family of color. We are going to be a family of the future.

Yeah. And her races is, you know, showing white people as oblivious they're inadvertently racist. And you know the first time that she has the kids come to their house to dinner, the white family's house, she says apropos of absolutely nothing the first time meeting her. You know, the police are and always have been fucked up they're really terrible to black people. I hate it, you know. She just announces this out of nothing, total awkward, a different kind of racism than opposing this marriage.

Yeah, but can I say something to you about that. There's a kind of virtue signaling in that. And that's what I was trying to say with Spencer Tracy's character, like he's the San Francisco liberal who gets it, like there's nothing weird about this black dude in my apartment. I am down with that. So yes, this is the updated version of that kind of liberal virtue signaling. So you people, in some ways, given that point imagines racism

Kneeling, Yeah, she's trying to She's like a Colin Kaepernick, She's trying to do it. Yeah.

So these really aren't the issues that carry. The more weight to the film, the more way of the film really falls on stereotypes, you know, the sort of bigoted ideas that people still hold when they think, you know you people. That's the kind of conceit of this film.

That's super interesting. And I agree with you completely that that the movie to me like shows wacky characters being wacky and it's there, you know, there isn't some deeper analysis and you know, like a lot of these types of movies, the way this one functions is it's sort of an excuse to get mostly men to hang out with one another and to do something. So we get Jonahill and Eddie Murphy's character. They're going to go off and like explore one another.

And like there's actually funny montage of moments, right, there's.

A montage of moments when they go out and like Eddie Murphy is testing him of like how much does he really know about the culture? And here black culture and so like what constitute black culture in the movie in this moment, is he's going to take him to a basketball court in the hood or a barber shop that's actually like a gang barbershop. You know, they never actually go to Achbar's house. Akbar is Muslim. They don't go to a mosque you know, this is the whole extent of it.

Yeah, so some of our listeners might be thinking, Okay, Benicola, you guys are beating up on this film a little bit too much. You're imposing too much ectation.

I'm going to beat up on him more, man, I'm going to beat up on him more, because like Eddie Murphy's working at like thirty percent here.

You know, it is like it is one of the most low key performances in all of cinematic history. But there's a there's a counterpoint to this film, and it's the film, for example, that Jordan Peele makes about white liberals and the way they literally commodify black bodies. Get Out. Get Out is a story of inner ration, romance turned into a horror story.

Yeah, when you were talking about Guess Who's coming to Dinner? I was thinking about how that how get Out is a total response to that. It is like taking that and turning it into a horror film. That when you go to this house and these these well meaning liberals, Uh, there is something so much deeper and structural that is, it's so dangerous that it's going to fucking kill you.

That's right, And the metaphor of being lobottomized and having your bolly stolen is just the horror spin on it. But the point is that you're still being consumed, that black culture is being consumed, that blackness is being consumed, even by so called friends.

Yeah, there's something that irked me about you people. I got to admit. It's like, so, Ezra is supposed to be this guy who is He says, I was raised by hip hop, you know. But he's talking to his fiance his girlfriend's parents, and you know, he can't even talk about uh, Malcolm X clearly, and he's got one of his boys, and one of the jokes is that one of his boys stormed the Capitol on January And come on, man, you can't have both, you know, like

The pressure that the failures of the family, the friends, the network, the whole social community that they're part of just is not evolved enough to handle this relationship.

Ezra is on his podcast and he laments that race in America conquers love, but at the end of the day, when it comes to black and white people, I don't think love is enough.

There's too many other outside factors.

He says, whether friends or family. People can't accept what they don't understand. That's a really good podcast. Huh. Yeah.

You know, thinking about Guess Who's Coming to Dinner? In this film, there is something that feels like it didn't evolve, like it didn't feel the promise of Guess Who's coming to dinner, which ultimately was the cautionary note of a generation two generations ago, and in this film is basically saying, not only are we no further along, but we don't even have the guts to talk about what's happening in our states. I mean, you think about Guess Who's coming

We'll be right back, all right, all right, Khalil, we are back on the Mow and Easy Show.

And I got my jew with nothing to do, hang it out with me this afternoon.

That is so true, so true, all right, man, about Jewish stuff. Every Jewish person I know who saw this movie doesn't like it. They're angered by it, they're frustrated by it. And let me tell you, Jewish people are on like high alert for stuff like this. They want stuff like this to be like meaningful. They want to like for it to get into like, you know, the good stuff about Jewish and Black history of working together. They wanted to do something progressive and listen, I did

And to an editorial.

Man, to be very serious. There are editorials all over like Jewish publications. For real, they are talking about this and for Jewish people something like this. You know, I'm going to quote a Philip Roth short story. They want to know, is you people? Is it good for the Jews or no good for the Jews.

Well, I was maybe not quite in that line. I was curious if they felt like the film was a touchstone for evoking the historic relationship of progressive Jews and black civil rights activists from the nineteen sixties, Like saw this film as kind of a way to jump start or re energize that relationship because I know a few conversations I've had with some of my Jewish friends, my other Jewish friends, that's a topic that often comes up.

Man, they wanted it, they wanted it to do. There's actually a joke in there when Amira's brother first learns that his sister is dating a guy named Ezra. He's hopeful because he's like, is that a third generation civil rights leader? You know, like everyone was named sort of like you know, they had these old Testament.

Names, right that he's not actually white, but he's a black dude with a Jewish Jewish first name. Yeah, that is a funny joke.

So so I want to say that this movie in terms of Black and Jewish relationships, to me, it started promising. And I watched this with my family, so my two black Jewish children and my black wife and the first scene is set in a synagogue on Joam Kapoor, the holiest day of holy days. And you know, so already we have a sense that, yes, these are white people, but there are certain kind of white people.

They're Jewish, And can I ask a question about that as a non Jew? By that you mean because because they were obviously Jews that don't go to synagogue or Yam Kapur, So you're saying that it's also religiously meaningful self identified Jews. That you mean or does everybody go to synagogue on ya.

It's like the one day when people if you're Jewish, yes, it's the one day we're going to do something. So like like people are going to synagogue one day a year. That's the one day a year. And it actually Ezra is signaled right away as one of those guys, like he's wearing high tops in there, his legs are shaken, he's totally uninterested in this. He is told he is related to us as somebody who is a secular Jew in Los Angeles.

Got it well. I was like both curious about how you responded to the engagement ring moment because there's this joke in the film about the size of Ezra's engagement ring that he's purchased for Mirah. It's tiny, and first teases him about it, but then there's this like setup for how he's going to present it to a mirror, and I was like, oh, oh, is that like a bridge too far?

Let's listen to that.

So what's the story here? That's your grandmother, Yes, my grandmother's and it's her she got into Holocaust or whatever, Like how old is she?

It's from the Holocaust?

Been a minute. I think she got catering.

She was like three or four years old.

It's a different time from them.

Yeah, yeah, you know, so so jokes about the Holocaust, you know, they could be a little dangerous, you know. But uh but even that joke is like being tasteless or controversial. Like that's where a lot of humor lize and even a lot of truth. I was still with the movie at that point, Okay, right, I like that. I liked that I was there, But from for me, from there, the movie sort of falls off the cliff, like why why? What so?

Because because I have to admit, first time I saw the film, I was a little bit less impressed. Second time, I thought it grew on me.

Ah, I had a different like, I was like okay with it because I watched it with my family. The first time, they were willing to laugh at anything, and then the second time, I was like, oh man, I was also.

Half asleep the first time, so I'll admit that.

Okay, all right. So to me, that the character's jewishness, that that how they are, how they are Jewish, is sort of invisible. It's not really a part of the film. And even from those first moments and from those first jokes, it starts to disappear. And even if they are secular Jews in Los Angeles, still sort of like what that means.

I did not. I didn't even know it came out.

It was too Jewish.

It was like only shown in synagogues and in Jewish community centers.

No, no, no, it's a big release movie. So it's about and you know, it's kind of relevant to us because it's about two middle school kids in the nineteen eighties, one black, one white, and it definitely focuses on the Jewish family, all right, And so this Jewish middle school boy is trying to figure out the world and his friendship with this black kid, and he goes to his grandfather who's played by Anthony Hopkins, which is kind of funny.

And so here, justice in this context has to do with whom.

With racism that the Jewish grandson is hearing anti black racism. And so here's the grandfather played by Anthony Hopkins, talking about his experiences from the Holocaust, and he's schooling his grandson on what to do.

You run the mom thing next time those schmuck say anything better about those black kids or those stans. You'd be a mens to those kids. Okay, they never had your advantage.

Yo, Man, what's deep about this is at no. But later in the movie the father his father gives the exact opposite advice. He's like, you got to save yourself whatever leg up you can get. You know, we face so much anti semitism and oppression. We need to like, if you've got an advantage, take it. But in New People, Man, and New People, there is no choice, all right. The characters aren't wrestling with being white and Jewish. You know, Jewish Jewishness comes up in a couple jokes, but it's

So what you're saying is that religion here is treated almost like a caricature.

Yeah, and a wink at different moments. Yeah. Yeah.

In fact, I thought it was interesting that part of the way to show Akbar's bigotry, his own anti whiteness, so to speak, is that he is a big fan of Far Khan and goes through this long, elaborate story of how he received a koofi from Far Khan as kind of a special ceremonial rites of passage for him, and so far Khan stands in as this kind of both acknowledgment of his Muslim identity, which is very controversial in terms of most Muslims who are Sunni Muslims, even

Yeah, and so Lewis Fowerkunt also has this history of anti Semitism, He's made comments before, and so Ezra has zero stake in this, like he doesn't there, Like what do you think about Lewis Fowerkun. He's like, I love him, He's great, He's got nothing. The parents are a little more uncomfortable, but this seemed like an opportunity to explore things. You put these two parents together, the Muslim parents and

And this is the guests who's coming to dinner moment for this film. This is the filmic homage to that earlier film when everyone is in the room and we are set up for fireworks.

And so the parents start talking and their differences around race and religion start to emerge, and they're all sort of like you know, hot button issues that come up. Listen to this moment.

All I'm saying is that our people came here with nothing like everybody else.

Actually, you kind of sort of came here with the money that you made from the slave trade. Like everyone preach, preach mother, preach mother. It's very I would like to see your sources on Maybe go.

Get my purse.

I've got my slave receipts in my purse.

Go get my purse. Because I don't turn on the news every day and see people in Yamaka's getting shot by police just because they was out minding their business. Okay, wow, yeah, I want you to just talk about this and get

Yeah, no, I agree with you there, And it did feel like, again it positioned in this case, and this might explain why so many of your Jewish friends and so many within the larger Jewish community in the United States felt like the film wasn't a good film because it was an unnecessary provocation. It's also generally within the main of the black community, a talking point even among black people who identify as Muslims, whether their nation of

And you know, so what was what was so problematic or troubling about those moments when you know, Kyrie Irving endorsed that film, or when Kanye West spoke out against Jewish people, is that you know, you said that most most black people aren't trafficking in this kind of like anti semitic language, but a lot of people don't know what's what's in the mainstream, and you know, to suddenly hear it in in famous black people talking about it and hearing it even coming from the right, and then

They're like equivalents, right right, Well, I think you've convinced me now that we've had a full work up of the failures of this film to deal with inter religious components of this relationship that actually the film isn't as good. My first impression is probably the more accurate one. That all being said, I have a final idea. There's a lot of meat on the bones left, you know what this movie attempts to do. And so many of our listeners know that you are a talented writer, and I'm

I hope that they're like, you know, Hollywood people are listening to this, you know, at least the Netflix people, you know. And one of the first scenes is you might remember this that when when we're going off to college and we're having our final dinner together.

Do you mean our story and our Ben Danielle and Khalil story.

Yeah, in real life. Do you remember where we went?

Did we go to Red Lobster?

So Danielle and I are going to Red Lobster because that was like fancy for us. And you just no cell phones or whatever. You just happened to show up like the quirky best friend.

Like you just happen to show up. I held like forty five minutes.

But me like, imail you to cover anything. But you know, so I actually I actually have a happy ending in a way.

I have one too.

You go through all of this that that just coincidentally. Kanye tweeted this weekend that he now loves Jewish people again. Oh my goodness, and the reason is Jonah Hill.

Wow, he bore some Jewish therapy.

Like, but what's funny? It was seeing Jonah Hill in a movie. But it wasn't this movie. It wasn't It wasn't you people. It was twenty one Jump Street.

Oh my goodness. I don't know if that actually that's true. I don't know if that means good things no bad things on the horizon for Kanye.

Yeah, yeah, I wouldn't put a lot of my sedaka in his in him.

Well, my happy ending is this. You guys got married how many years ago?

Now? Twenty almost twenty almost.

Twenty years ago, And just so our listeners know that that crash date at Red Lobster led to me being the only person who was invited to their wedding in New York City at City Hall on a random I believe, November day, beautiful Chili day. I was the best man. I was the matron of honor because I was married at that time. I was the photographer, the witness. I was your only reception date.

When you showed up were I said, meet us at the foot of Brooklyn Bridge because we were going to get you know, we were going to get married at City Hall, but I didn't tell you. I tell you. I said that I want you to take some holiday photographs.

That's right.

And then you showed up with all your cameras because you know, you're the son of a Pulitzer Prize winning photographer, you'd like twelve cameras. And you looked at us and you were like, they're a little bit more dressed up and Ben is carrying a bouquet and like all this other stuff and your hands started to shake and you just started to cry.

Yeah, it was a special moment.

So it was a great moment.

Yeah, well man, this was This was a really great conversation. We touched on some important themes, not only in cinematic history, but also in how much more work needs to be done in trying to capture what it means to do interracial love in a rom com or a drama or anything else on the big screen. All right, all right, love you.

Man, Love you too.

Some of My Best Friends Are is a production of Pushkin Industries. The show is written and hosted by me Khalil, Jabron Muhammad and my best friend Ben Austin.

This show is produced by Lucy Sullivan. It's edited by Sarah Nix with help from Keshel Williams. Our engineer is Amanda Kwang, and our managing producer is Constanza Gallardo at Pushkin.

Thanks to Leitol Molad, Julia Barton, Heather Faine, Carly Migliori, John schnarz Retta Cone, and Jacob Weisberg.

Our theme song, Little Lily, is by fellow chicagoan The brilliant Avery R. Young from his album Tubman. You definitely want to check out his music at his website Averyaryong dot com.

You can find Pushkin on all social platforms at pushkin pods, and you can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to listen.

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Thank you.

Yeah, and new people. There's definitely no passover Sata, but here's a little taste of my family sat this year.

Our story begins with degreation, our telling ends with glory.

We are slaves in Egypt and were gods from where lad struct our ancestors out of Egypt. We are our children, children, children,