Speaking and Eating and War in the Soil with guest Sarah Lane

The community of cannabis cultivators has always been tight. We had to be, for most of our lives, we were persecuted, and in some jurisdictions we still are. That persecution meant that we couldn't access many of the botanists we'd like to talk to. And that meant there were big parts of cannabis cultivation that was kind of in a biological black box. We couldn't see what was happening inside. All we knew was what we were doing, and then what was coming out the other side.

Now though, between the creeping partial legalization we've got and the internet, we can now access the minds of scientists who support our efforts to grow magnificent, thriving, and medicinal cannabis plants. Today's one of those episodes where we get to look inside that black box.

During today's episode, we will examine the relationship between the cannabis plant and the soil life and get a better understanding of how they talk to each other and how they work together for mutual benefit in this intimate relationship. If you wanna learn about cannabis health cultivation and technique efficiently and with good cheer, I encourage you to subscribe to our newsletter.

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So go to shaping fire.com to sign up for the newsletter and be entered into this month's and all future newsletter prize drawings. You are listening to Shaping Fire, and I'm your host, Shago LOEs. My guest today is Plant biologist Sarah Lane. Sarah Lane is wrapping up her PhD in plant and cellular biology at University of Victoria. Her work primarily focuses on root exudates that are involved in iron uptake in plants and their potential medicinal benefits.

Sarah consults for licensed cannabis cultivators in Canada and is an avid living soil, cannabis home grower. Due to her university research needs, she is also very experienced in fog, pons, and hydroponics. Sarah has a wicked large plant collection and is currently designing a specialty terrarium for growing cloud orchids. During the first set of today's episode, we will focus on what exudates are, their biological mechanics and how they interact with microbes and other

residents of the rhizosphere. During the second set, we will talk about the relationship between dates and fungal networks, signaling varieties of exude dates, and address the challenges of a 24 hour light cycle. We finish up the third set discussing exudates and salt based fertilizers. Exudates and soil is growing mediums like, like Coco core, and the misconception of using unsolved moral assets to replace the nutrition that exudates provide. Welcome to Shaping Fire, Sarah.

Hey, it's great to be here. Thanks for having me. Oh, yeah. Thank you so much for joining us and sharing your expertise. So let's jump right in. You know, I think that most people, uh, who cultivate cannabis, who have even heard of exudates, um, only really know that exudates are something that the cannabis plant gives off and that the microbes eat. And like, that's pretty much it. It's the, it's the food, it's the,

the plant feeding the microbes, and that's about it. And, and you know, we know that that's actually like overly simplistic and misses the big picture. So, so why don't we start by kind of getting everybody on the same page and if you would, explain what exudates are. Okay. So exudates are basically all of the different molecules and components that the plant makes in the roots that are like given off to the cryosphere. So there's a bunch of stuff inside the plant cells and inside the root that

happens. And then ex dates are everything that the plant makes specifically to, to transport out into the soil. And there's lots of different types of exit dates. They can be sugars, they can be amino acids, they can be, um, specific types of secondary metabolites which are not used for nutrition. And there's many, many different functions of them as well. So just to give us an idea of,

of like how many different exu dates there are. Are we, are we talking about like, like there's, there's, there's like five buckets or 50 buckets or a hundred buckets, Like how many, how many varieties are there just, just in general?

Oh, goodness, That's a tough one. There, there honestly are so many different types of ex dates and we're just scratching the surface of what ex dates actually are like off the top of my head, like functionally there's probably like 20 different groups of ex dates that I know of personally, but I think ex dates are extremely hard to study because they are in the soil and the roots. So I think we'll probably keep finding new ones over time.

This is ki i I get the idea now that this is kind of like asking you how many, uh, types of bacteria are there. There's just like a ton in nature and, and we're, we're constantly finding more as our, um, technology gets more sensitive. So true. Yep. That's definitely the case.

. All right. So, um, like to help illustrate what some of these ex expedites are, can you give us like, like three different examples of exit eights that, you know, maybe you particularly like, just so that we can kind of wrap our head around, um, you know, what, what they do? Yeah, sure. Um, so I mean, the ones that I work with specifically are called OIDs. They're actually sort of a group of molecules that come from the process of

building up lignin, but they have lots of different uses. Um, and those include things like, um, some of 'em are, are complicated ones are chlorogenic acid, which is actually found really in high amounts in coffee,

so people might be a little bit more familiar with it. Um, there's also amino acids like, um, that not only are used for protein building, but plants can make special non-pro amino acids that are really useful in finding out things like fishing out iron note of the soil and that kind of thing. Um, and then the other one is flavonoids.

There's actually a bunch of different types of flavonoids, which is a big huge supergroup of different types of molecules, and they're involved in everything from antioxidant behavior to, um, even signaling to mic and things like that. All right. So, so you've mentioned, um, uh, I think that, I think I've pulled out like three different categories from your examples. There. There would be like, um, like this, the only ones I was aware of, the nutrition. Right. Um, and then it's,

and then you've mentioned signaling a couple times. And then, and then, um, you've, you sounds like there are some that actual process, um, uh, like things like nitrogen and things like that, they're like more like, kinda like worker bees. Um, is that, do, do all of exit dates roughly fall into these three categories or, um, or are there many more categories to like what they do? I think functionally we can kind of bin them, if you wanna call it that, into a couple different groups.

There's definitely like interacting with nutrients directly, which is kind of where my expertise is. Um, there's signaling back and forth like talking to bacteria or fungi or that kind of thing where they interact with the, um, microbes and the microbes interact back. And then there's another big group that are almost like anti herital or, or herital, sorry. Um, and those ones are responsible for sort of clearing the way for the plant to

grow. Um, I'm sure there's more than that, but I think that's kind of like the big huge groups. So I think I have an overly simplistic understanding of the back and forth because the way I normally think about the relationship with the plant and the, um, the microbes and the rest of the life and the, the, the RSOs sphere is that during the daytime, the plant will, um, uh, be fed by the microbes and, and, and the rest of the players in the RSOs sphere during the day.

And then during the dark period, the plant will then turn around and send, uh, the, the required nutrition back into the R osse. And so it's like a, it's like a back and forth, like a tide thing dependent on, um, you know, whether or not it is day or night cycle for the plant, which is kind of quarterbacking this back and forth, is how I generally think about it. But, um, but that may very well be way too simplistic. So, so will you kind of explain how it goes back and forth?

Yeah, so I think like the basic idea of signaling is, is a little bit like texting. It's, it's not so much that the plants are providing nutrition directly to the roots, although in some ca or from the roots to the microbes, although in some cases it is. And it's not always that the microbes are providing nutrition back to the plant. There's a lot of signaling that's going on. And that's kind of like, if you can imagine, um, you know, being at home and, hey,

can you pick me up some milk from the grocery store? But it could also be like, Hey, I've got cookies when you've got home, when you come home, and that kind of thing. So that's kind of what I mean by signaling. Um, and that signaling happens all day, every day at any time. So there is some regulation with light interacting. Obviously light drives photosynthesis and that kind of thing.

And when the plant is on, it's often needing a lot of different types of activities like nutrient acquisition and maybe it's doing some, you know, stress responses to help against pests or something like that. And a lot of this happens in the daylight. I don't think we know enough about whether or not it happens in the dark mm-hmm. because the roots are always in the dark technically.

Sure. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. Um, you know, the way that you described it, this kind of like all these different microbes and uh, and protozoa and then the plant exudates all kind of calling out to each other and signaling, you know, uh, pickup milk or I have cookies when you get home and like, and, and if everybody is doing that, I suddenly got this idea of like this cacophony of signals back and forth and like shopkeepers calling out what's on sale and kinda like some

kind of like big Turkish bizarre and like everybody trying to, you know, get everybody's attention. Um, is that a, is that a reasonable picture of, of, of what's going on? It's a beautiful picture of what's going on.

I really do think that's exactly what's happening because there, like we often think about it being just the plant and the microbes interacting with each other, but the microbes interact with each other too, and with fungi and with different, um, organisms around, like, it is just a huge web of different organisms talking to each other. And sometimes that is like, you know, selling your chips on the, you know, or the hotdog stand or whatever.

And maybe it is advertising for sale and it's very, very, very complicated. And I, it's something that I think we wish we knew more about, but trying to dissect what each of those components is contributing to the soil life or, or even just how the plant is growing in the soil is really complicated. I like. That though. Yeah. And it's strange too because like I've always kind of thought as of the soil as while a violent place often, um, uh, you know, pretty calm actually.

Like it's, it's kind of serene in there, but it's, it's probably because of the level of magnitude I'm like, I'm, I'm living on this human level of magnitude, but if I could see really closely under a microscope I'd be, I'd be seeing all this activity in the cryosphere. And so it's only quiet to me cuz like, I, I can't hear it. Absolutely. It is very barely controlled chaos down there. Let me tell you. . So do we have a, uh, any technology or any way to, uh, gauge the amount of, you know,

rambunctious signaling that's going back and forth? Like, there is, is there any kind of like a, you know, anything that we can like put into the soil to gauge signaling that's taking place in the soil? Um, I think it's, it's pretty complicated, but there's some interesting things that go on. So like, I guess it depends on what level.

So what we're talking about right now is on the chemical level. And really the, the way that a lot of people are doing this is either bulk, so they take a big sample of soil and then measure it for different types of organisms or different types of signals that they're producing, but then trying to tease that out. We can tell differences like maybe between different types of soil or different

types of communities, different types of plants, that kind of thing. Um, but I think it'd be really hard to pick out which one is responsible for exactly which one. And so the other option is to take an individual plant and an individual organism and see what they do together, just the two of them. And it's one of the real challenges with like soil ecology or, or like ecology in general is just trying to pull out, you either have to treat it as a whole and just accept that you don't understand

the individual relationships. Um, or you have to get in there and try and tease them apart one by one. Does that make sense? It. Does. So let's talk a little bit about, um, a couple of these different varieties. So, um, the, the one that we've talked about the most so far is, or the signaling. And so we understand, you know, what they're trying to signal. Like, like, I have this type of nutrition or, or maybe I need this type of nutrition. Um,

how are they doing that? Are they doing that, um, primarily, uh, chemically or is an electrical charge or what is at, at that, um, very small level? What is the mode of communication? It is, it is chemical. I mean there for the most part, um, it is like plants. If we go back to the exit date thing, like these plants are making these very highly specific molecules. They're basically, in some cases like an invitation, and then those are actually like taken up by the microbe in question.

Um, and that changes what the microbe can make. So it actually interacts, um, after a long signal in cascade inside the cell, it'll interact on the genome and then they'll be able to produce different types of molecules based on that information. And then that ends up getting made and exuded out by the microbe. And then maybe that's an RSVP response card back to the plant.

Um, and then they kind of do this back and forth, or sometimes it might just be like they actually make a different molecule and that molecule is then transported into the plant cell. Does that. Make sense? Yeah. And it's super cool actually. I mean the idea that, that the, the, the signaling exudate kind of like combines with the microbe and between the two of them, they develop this superpower that it's the only way that what is necessary

is produced. I mean, that's pretty cool. . That's a very complex complex, Yeah. . I think it's awesome. I th I think it's also important to note though, that what we're talking about there is like, um, a pretty symbiotic relationship mm-hmm. . Um, and there is going to be some opportunistic stuff too because, you know, plants are making stuff that maybe it has one purpose, but the microbes can use it for something different. So it uses it for something different and produces some other stuff.

And those different types of molecules have like a happy accident. The plant could use some of them too. Like sometimes it is more like a, a free bin than it is something that's like really organized . But, um, yeah, there can be both happening.

All right. I like this idea of invitation microbes too. Um, alright, so, so if they are all speaking to each other through subtle chemicals, um, for, for those of us who are, you know, we're, we're adding things to our soil all the time, you know, this fertilizer or that fertilizer or you know, some kind of soil drench with like an fpj in it or something. Um, it, how easy is it for us to disrupt that

chemical signaling back and forth? Um, just like, let's say that, you know, I'm, I'm talking with a friend in my yard and a and a plane flies over, you know, relatively low cause I live near an airport and we just have to like stop

talking for a minute and wait for the plane to fly over. Is there anything that, that we could potentially do as cultivators that would be so air quotes loud in the RSO sphere that everybody have to talk, Stop talking for a minute cuz we just dumped something in the soil. See, I think unless it's water, like probably everything we add is disrupting things a little bit. It's a bit like getting a shipment, you know, everybody stops to bring in the delivery kind of thing.

I think that is also true of microbes because they're responding to the, to whatever you've added as well. Um, but I think, I think all of them are gonna be disruptive. I think it's more how long, because like for example, if you're just adding water or some nutrients, like depending on how light or how much nutrients you're adding, um, it might be like really short term and they can use up those nutrients pretty

quickly and then they're back to doing whatever. Um, or maybe it's more long term and you've really altered the soil chemistry enough that like maybe something dies off or those kind of things. I think those are all things that could really disrupt. And I think especially with nutrients, because a lot of what we're talking about is the plant signaling for nutrients or something related to nutrition. Um, that that's probably one of the things that would turn off signals from a plant.

Like they don't need to get it from the microbe if you're providing it. Um, and I think that that might be something else that would really, I don't know, that would definitely be a plain overhead situation. Sure. Um, I wanna take one more step along this, uh, disruption idea, um, specifically with, with water. I mean, clearly the soil requires, uh,

water so that things can have mobility. Um, but sometimes, you know, a a cultivator will just overwater terribly and um, and it can, you know, drown lots of varieties of microbes or, or you know, cause 'em to cyst up in depending on the, on the variety. Um, can we drown exudates too to the point where, you know, we kind of like wipe out a whole, I don't know, generation of 'em and, and the, the soil that needs to, uh, dry out and then the plant needs to restart?

I think, I think yeah, like if you're, if you're like, uh, watering to run off and stuff like that, there's certainly stuff that's leaching outta the soil and some things are kept more by the soil than others. So when we talk about these molecules, um, a lot of them are charged and some of the charged, like the positively charged, um, types of molecules tend to stay in soil better than negatively charged ones do. Um, so you could definitely like flush a lot of things out that way.

But I think the time scale for production of exit dates by the plant, it can replenish pretty quickly. It's not, um, it's not on like the, you know, days, weeks, or months sort of situation. Like those cells are making a lot of stuff really rapidly and some of the responses can happen within seconds. I don't think it'll be seconds to make the exit dates again, but the idea that they might need to make more of them is a pretty quick one.

So I mean, it you might, you might disrupt it like really temporarily. I think the biggest danger with overwatering is probably damage to the roots or like promoting the growth of anaerobic bacteria or pathogenic species, that kind of thing. I follow. Um, so, so that was, we were just talking about the signaling variety and so let's talk about the nutrition variety and it sounds like some of the signaling ones actually do end

up playing a role in getting nutrition for the plant themselves as well. Um, what's the difference between like that kind of activity and the ones that we were putting in the, um, nutritive, um, exudates bucket? I think those ones are more direct. So I mean, everything is happening at like a chemical level so the chemistry of the molecules can interact with the chemistry of the soil and just completely bypass the microbes. So for example, I work with iron, um,

iron is really hard to get outta the soil. There's lots of it, but it's kind of like it's locked up like a rock. Um, and so the plants will actually make molecules that can go and sort of fish it out from the rock and interact directly with iron molecules and then that is brought over to the root and it can be taken up that way. Same of things like nitrogen and phosphorus and things like that.

I think there's certainly like, either they're making it a more favorable environment for those ions to just kind of like those molecules to just be available for uptake. Um, or they're actually able to like drag it in some, some plants,

those non protein amino acids that I was talking about earlier. Um, some plants like grasses will make those and they actually just kind of pick up the iron like a little basket of eggs and actually bring it inside the cell so they can, they can interact certainly with molecules to signal back and forth to tell them to make other things and bring it in, but they can actually just interact with the nutrients directly as, um, as that molecule and bring it in as well. Does that.

Make sense? It does. So when, um, when cultivators kind of like, uh, loosely say, you know, oh, this, this fertilizer is, is plant ready or that fertilizer needs to be, you know, processed in the r osse before the, the plant can take it is, is it these exudates that, that we're talking about that are, are doing that work of coming across, you know, nutrition or minerals or whatever in the soil and the exudates are what are, you know, breaking it down and,

and putting it into a form that can interact with the actual root zone? That's certainly part of it. Yeah, for sure. And like one group we haven't talked about is, uh, low molecular weight, organic acids, um, which are like really, really small basic, um, uh, what's one that I can think of off the top of my head, um, like Citrix acids and things like that, plants can make those, um, and that will just make it easier to take up. Is that sort of what you were talking about? Yes.

Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. Um, because you know, most of the time we just talk about that, uh, you know, you know, casually using like contemporary language and, and not the science specific language. So to kinda like, you know, accidentally come across it, it's kind of kind of exciting. It's like, oh, this is what we're talking about all the time and we don't know what we're talking about. That's great.

. And there's definitely like this big component of, of like, when we talk especially about living soils and things like that, there's, there's everything at the end of the day is salt, even if it's from an organic, um, material or something like that. It's being broken up into these little tiny ions that we call salts. And, um, and the, the, I guess it's just a matter of whether it needs help to get to that state or whether we're providing it as that state.

And any time we're talking about these like exit dates helping, like, they're basically trying to put it into that form so the plant can take it up. So then, um, the third bucket we were talking about, um, were, um, I don't know, for lack of a better term, I'll say allopathic, they're, they're, they're kind of like, like, I don't know, almost military. They where they, where they go and they are herding the plant enemies. Is that like the general idea?

Sort of, Yeah. Um, so a allopathic chemicals are these sort of natural herbicides that some, and not all plants make them, but some plants make these types of ex dates that basically act as like a herbicide or a fungicide or something like that to clear the way. So it's made by the root, the root's going through the soil and like leaving this material that behind that is really toxic to some plants and that kills off neighboring roots and that kind of thing and lets it grow better.

And invasive species are often really good at making these kind of things. And the plants that are here already, uh, don't have any defense against them. And so it just kills them off. So I know I asked you that question in kind of like a general way. Have we found cannabis plants making this particular kind of war making exudate yet? Do we, do we, have we seen that in cannabis? I mean, I know we're still just learning what cannabis puts out, but have we found that yet?

Not to my knowledge. They're pretty unique situations when this is a thing. Um, like for example, walnut trees, black walnut trees. You cannot grow anything under a black walnut tree for a huge radius because that's how toxic it is. Um, but cannabis, you can plant quite a few plants right next to it. It doesn't seem to do anything. So if it is, it would be on maybe like,

I don't know, maybe it would be antifungal or something like that. But it, I don't think it actually has anything like this that would kill off plant roots like. That. That's a great example because that's actually what I was thinking about. I was thinking about, oh, maybe, maybe this is why some of the companion planting that we put with cannabis is more successful than others. Maybe the, the cannabis plant is actually trying to choose its neighbors.

It certainly can. And like all of these root things that we're talking about, like it influences the soil environment and that environment is going to be hospitable to some other plants and less hospitable to others. Maybe not because it's directly killing off the plants, but just because maybe that plant doesn't enjoy those kind of conditions the same way. Mm-hmm. .

All right. So we talked about the signaling kind and we talked about the, the, the, the, the allopathic kind and we talked about the, the processing that are gonna go and, you know, free up nutrition in the soil. And then I think the last category that we haven't covered is, is are the ex dates that are themselves nutrition? So, so what kind, tell us a little bit about the exu dates that the plant puts off. That is nutrition itself.

These ones are kind of complicated cuz I guess it depends on what, what isn't necessary, but a lot of things that are carbon based, cuz carbon is basically what we talk about, like, like sugars and things like that are what end up being used to make energy. So I think that a a lot of different types of root egg dates could be nutritious to other organisms provided they can break them down and use them.

Um, so I think like, um, a lot of the metabolites I work with, we think might be getting, um, eaten up by bacteria, which are like the, the acids and things like that. Um, anything that has a sugar attached, because a lot of these molecules are combinations of these different types of groups. So you can have an acid that's attached to a sugar, for example. Like all of those would be possible nutrients. Since you brought up carbon, um, I want to ask you, uh, uh, a question.

It's kind of a, um, I don't know where this might take us, is what I wanna say is that, go for it. Last night I was talking to, uh, soil biologist Layton Morrison on the phone about how excited I was about our interview today. And he is like, Oh, exos are great. They're like liquid carbon and, and I wasn't sure what he meant, but I, I figured I would ask you about him and say, Are exudates like liquid carbon? A little bit actually. So a lot of, um, like there's,

there's a huge number of atoms out there in elements. Um, but the ones that are most common in organic chemistry and and life are carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, phosphorous, um, hydrogen and, uh, sulfur. And so most of these tiny, like it's just those six. Like there's, and obviously there's other things like iron and, and plants need manganese and magnesium and all these other different metals. But like a lot of these molecules that we're talking about today are based off

of those, um, those six. So when we're talking liquid carbon, like the, a lot of these molecules have a carbon skeleton, so they're mostly carbon and as long as something can break the carbon apart and use it in their um, in their biology though, that's food. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. . I get it. So, so I want to talk a little bit about the, the nature of the signaling. Uh, I'm curious to know whether it's more, more push or pull, um, when the signaling happens and perhaps it's both.

Is it more like putting out a sign that says, you know, I have cookies for sale if you want cookies come over to me. Or is it more like placing an order where one, one side of it, either the microbe or the plant will, will put out a request to the other side for what they specifically need?

I think it's, it's sort of both and it really depends on which specific interaction you're talking about, but I kind of like to think of it more like a conversation, like there's gonna be some asking questions and like, I need this, but there's also gonna be like, I'll give you this too. Um, and so I, and it also happens over multiple cycles. So it's not just like a one message in one message back sort of thing. Like these cycles can have multiple signals back and forth.

Does that make sense? Yeah. It does. So where in the plant are the exudates made? Are they made like in in one particular exit eight factory? Or is it like made all all over the plant in in many places? I think, to be honest, I think it's complicated. . I think that our general understanding of where exit dates are produced is usually the root tip because that's the growing part of the root and it's the one that kind of has to be the most responsive to the different things it's

encountering as it's moving through the soil. Um, as far as like where on the route like it's, it's gonna be on the surface cells mostly because they're the ones that are directly next to the mesosphere, which makes sense. Um, but I think a lot of different types of molecules and signals to make those molecules can come from all over the plant too. Like different parts of the root can ask for different things. Um, different parts of the chute,

like the growing part of the plant that we see all the time. Um, that can also trigger different things to be made as well. Um, but I think like the cells right on the outside of the root are the most responsive to that kind of stuff. And it's different too cuz above that growing zone, um, there might be, there's still exit dates being produced, but they might be different because there's different needs if you're already there.

Um, with all the different needs and all the cacophony and how small this is, I can imagine that there are so many exit dates next to each other, next to each other, next to each other that they're nearly tripping over each other cuz there's so much activity happening. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Of a little bit of a soup. Yeah. . Um, so the, um, are the ex dates like stuck where they are and they, they're only mobile if there is water around?

Or do they have some kind of solution for mobility for themselves? That kind of depends on the chemistry. So like in general, they're gonna be mostly right next to the root and then they're just going to kind of diffuse, um, to places where there's less of them. Same as like if you were to dump a bunch of salt into the glass, eventually the salt would all dissolve into the water, but they would be most concentrated in the bottom unless you stir it up.

So it's kinda like that, if you imagine the bottom of the glass is like the cells, so it's being made right at the bottom there and then kind of diffuses up and eventually it'll get pretty far away, but, but not too far. Um, and then it depends on the type of molecule because they're mostly water soluble. Um, but there can be some that are kind of more, um, lipophilic or like oil loving mm-hmm. that might move differently.

They might be more likely to stay next to the cell that's more like that. Um, and maybe don't, don't travel as far away from the route. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. And, and it doubly makes sense because, um, you know, the theme of all of your answers have been it's complex and it depends on which one. And I'm starting to realize that, you know, most of, most of the generalizations that we might make about exudates, um, really don't apply to everybody. Like,

like it's hard to make generalizations about exudates. So, so I guess, I guess we'll kind of like wrap up this first set with, um, what is it about exudates that make them, uh, be exudates? Because if, if they all act in different ways and move in different ways and signal in different ways and do different things, there's gotta be something that they all have in common that makes them exudate. So what, what is that?

Honestly, it's just location, um, I think is like the, the biggest thing that connects all of them because as you say, we have, there's lots of different functions for them. There's lots of different types. They have lots of different, different jobs and interact with different things. Um, but they're all outside the route. They're all made by the plant specifically for being out in the reo vSphere, and that's the thing that ends up connecting all of them.

So, so the exudates are created outside of the root or, or it's made in the root and then it's shoved out of the root. It's made in the root and shoved out. Like I, like I was saying earlier, like those, those cells that are right on the surface of the route, they're making them inside and then packaging them and then sending them out into the REOs. Weere. Hmm. That kind of reminds me of the, uh, of the, um,

endophytic bacteria that we talked about. Uh, a couple shows back about, you know, the thing that makes the, makes it an, uh, a bacteria endophytic is that it spends some amount of its life inside of the plant. And so it goes, you know, it'll go in and out of the plant. And so perhaps exudates are, you know, things that start in the roots and then, and then they are pushed out. Um, is there is does that, Yeah. Does that make sense? I don't know. I'm making it up. Yep, a hundred.

Percent. Yep. Nope, that works for me. That's as good a definition as any . All right, great. Okay, let's go ahead and take, uh, a short break and be right back. Uh, you are listening to Shaping Fire and my guest today is Plant biologist Sarah Lane. And, you know, without these advertisers shaping Fire would not happen. So, uh, please support them and let them know you heard them on Shaping Fire

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So during the first that we talked a lot about kind of exu exudate mechanics and and and what they are so that, you know, we could get an idea of, you know, get our heads wrapped around this, this interesting chemical that's in the R osse and and what it does. And so on on, during this set, we're gonna focus more on, um, on what they actually do and how this, I don't know, cacophony or symphony, uh, takes place.

So how specific are the signals for, um, either nutrition or the, the signals to telling exudates to go out and like, you know, mind some manganese or something. Um, are there specific exudates for all of these processes or, or is it like when, when you tell somebody, Hey, would you pick up bread? But I don't tell them what kind of bread. I'm trying to get an idea of how specific the, the requests are.

Oh, another theme of the day, it's complicated. Mm-hmm. , I think that in some cases it's extremely specific, especially when we're talking about symbol like, um, symbiotic relationships like rizo or in legumes or Michi and that kind of thing. It's like very specific to the point where it's species specific. It's a specific molecule that has one job and that is to go and signal to mic

fungal, um, interactions and things like that. So it can be that specific, but there's also some that have sort of more of a, like a broad, like it has multiple different types of chemistry. Um, it might be maybe a more complicated molecule where one end does one thing and the other end does another thing. Um, and sometimes the plant can make multiple things to do the same job.

So some of the, the tasks that that the exit eights do, especially the, the ones that are sent out for nutrition, and probably similarly the ones that are sent out for, uh, like, like inert things like manganese or iron or whatever, um, those jobs sound familiar or,

or similar to the role of Mike Iza. And, and you know, we often talk on this show about how the fungal networks are like super highways that are, that will go out and source these different, um, nutritions that are needed by the plant and then kind of, uh, bring them back. And there's, there's this relationship there. I would think that since this this task is very similar to the exudates or at least how they're described, there's probably a lot of exudate interaction with the fungal

network. Is this true? Yeah, I, I would say that's true. So I think there's like, there's two components, like one, the exit dates can do a similar job, but on a much more, um, tiny scale cause they don't travel very far. And so if they need to go farther out for the nutrients, then the ex dates would interact with the micro is directly. And a lot of that is basically initiating infection. It sounds weird to say infection when I don't mean pathogenic. Mm-hmm.

But essentially the plant has to invite the michie especially, uh, endo michie, uh, to infect it. And that's a very specific signal that's sent out to interact with the, with that fungus, um, to allow it to come and join the plant. And it has to be in a situation where the plant would need that.

So I think like if the plant is deficient in phosphorus, for example, it might interact with Mic I Moore, whereas if it's not that deficient or if there's plenty of phosphorous next to the root, maybe it interacts with that less and the ex dates that it makes for itself will do the job. Does that. Make sense? Yeah, that does make sense. Um, is it possible to like overtax the exudate systems?

So if the plant is, you know, making these ex dates and, and everything that the plant, uh, does, takes some amount of, I don't know, energy or life force or effort, depending on what level we're looking at, um, if the exit eights are so busy, um, can the exit eights be be working so hard that it makes the plant, uh, less thriving? I think that kind of depends. So I think if the plant is unhealthy, that might be true. Um, we often talk about things like a carbon budget though.

So there's a certain amount of carbon that like given amount of plant, um, can fix. Uh, and there's a given amount of nutrients it can take up just based on its biology and physiology. Um, and so carbon budgeting depend that, that means that different parts of the plant will be allocating carbon to different places. So if, for example, it's suffering a massive drip wave, um, it will be busy making carbon containing compounds to deal with that

mm-hmm. and it might make less ex dates. Um, but if it's perfectly healthy, all things considered, it will make what it needs, um, and it'll make the amount that it needs. Does. That make sense? Yeah, it does. Um, so it, it, hmm. So where, what I was going to ask was that it, you know, are there things that we can do that would stress the exudate process and, and signaling exchange and then you threw the thri thing on the end.

So perhaps the answer to the question that, that I was gonna ask is like, anything that stresses the plan is going to call on the exit dates to have to do more work. So don't stress your plant. Basically. Yeah. Or it's going to divert the resources of the plant elsewhere. Um, I think like there's a certain amount, we call it basal or base. There's a certain amount of like maintenance level things that the plant makes

everywhere. Um, but it will respond to different stresses by taking as much carbon and nutrients as it can to whatever that is. So if it's, if it's happy and healthy, then it can like pump up those base levels and everything's great. If it's really under stress somewhere else, it might take what it would normally make in the roots. It might take some carbon from that and and send it somewhere else. And that might mean that you have, there's still probably gonna be some exudates there, um,

but it'll probably mean that there's less of them. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. And so for somebody who's listening to what you're saying, like me and, and my brain goes to, um, you know, what can I do to not stress out the exudate creation? Like that's a, that's nice that I'm thinking about that level of my plant, but really that's, that's not really necessary.

I really should go up a level of magnitude and, and think about not doing things that stress out the plant and then just let the exudates manage themselves. Essentially. Yeah. Like, I think if you take care of your soil and you take care of your, your plant and, and they're both in good shape, then you shouldn't have to worry about it for sure. Okay. I mean,

making sure that your soil is healthy is definitely a big part of it. Um, making sure the plant isn't, you know, being, as I said, maed by drips or something like that is also helpful. I don't think anybody wants that anyway. But, um, those kind of things, um, making sure it's getting enough water, it's not overwatered, um, you know, all those, all those things that we generally try and make sure our plants have anyway.

If your plant is healthy, there's not really anything extra that you need to do. Um, I think we, we've, I think compost teas are one thing that you can do to kind of help with soil life and things like that. Um, and that might help with the exit date situation, but most of the time it's really out of your control. Well, it's kind of nice to have something that, you know, we're learning about this process, but it isn't another thing that we have to like technically worry about, right?

Mm-hmm. , if you do your, if you do your regular, um, your regular living soil kind of stuff, like, like this will take care of itself, which is great because we already have enough to worry about, right. ? Yep. Um, we'll talk more about, uh, compost t a little bit later, but, um, I want to wade into, um, a, uh, a a pretty fierce debate in the cannabis world. And, um, and I'm a pretty heavy participant in it, and, uh, I have been looking for, um,

someone like you to weigh in on it. So, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna pull you into this debate, and this is on 20 hour light cycle, so, Okay. The, the, the debate is generally about, um, does the 24 hour light cycle, is it best for the plant or does it, uh, starve the,

the soil from nutrients? And, and the idea kind of goes like this, Um, uh, some growers like to use 24 hours light because it causes the plant to grow more quickly and you can either, uh, grow a bigger, high, higher yielding plant, um, during that time or during, you know, its regular life cycle, um, because,

um, um, you know, because it's just getting more light. Um, or you can actually shorten the cycle by using more light, which, you know, allows you to perhaps get in another growing cycle over the year. And so a lot of people use 24 hours of light. Now, the flip of it, which happens to be where I stand, is that no 24 hours of, of, of light indoors is not going to create the best plant because while it makes it grow faster, um, you're not allowing the back and forth of the, the,

the light phase and the dark phase. Both, both phases are necessary so that the, the, the exudates and the signaling and all the processes that happen when the, the plant is awake with the light, it needs to have some dark times. So the contrasting, uh, signaling and exudates can happen. So you, you need both. So all varieties of exudate signaling can happen and, and all of the varieties of, of nutrition and, and those things can go back and forth. So I have a feeling that the,

the answer is, is probably somewhere in the middle. Um, but specifically to this 24 hours of light question, how does 24 hours of light impact this relationship between the plant and the mesosphere? As far as the exudates playing a role? O that is a spicy debate, isn't it? Yeah. . Um, , I think, again,

to the theme of the day, it's complicated. Um, I have have not ever seen anybody be able to, because of the complexity of TheraSphere and all the stuff that's going on there, I haven't seen anybody actually be able to put this into a scientific study where we're able to say definitively, if you give a plant 24 hours of light, the eggs date suffer. Um, so it's really in the middle. I think. Um, there's a couple different things that I can think of off the top of my head.

If, if it's okay if I ramble for a second. No, please. We want to get into this, so go. Ahead, . Perfect. Okay. So light cycles, um, light cycles, I think lots of things are turned on by the plant rather than off when light is on. And that's because light is driving water, transport and nutrient uptake, and it's also driving photosynthesis. So I think that too much dark is as bad as too much light is, if that makes sense.

Like you're seeing the growth and the yield increase because the plant is doing a lot of stuff during that time. Um, and there is a circadian clock in plants where there are different things that happen in the daytime and in the nighttime, and they actually are different for the root part and the shoot part. So they actually operate on different clocks, but they do talk to each other.

So, um, I guess where I'm going with this is, is that there is a circadian rhythm, but we don't know enough about it to be able to say that, that having light on the top of the plant, um, is going to affect the roots in the way that I think this debate kind of goes. Mm-hmm. . Um, because if we think about it, the roots are always in the dark. They're never in the light. They're not, like, there might be a small amount of light that makes it to the, to the root,

but not enough that it should matter. Um, but they can still sense it a little bit. Um, man, that is, that is a very. Deep so, but, but topic. Yeah, it is. And, and so when, if, if the, maybe I'm thinking too top down about this, because even though the light doesn't specifically reach their roots, right, during the light mode, the plant, I'm, I'm, I think of it as the plant is giving commands through the roots.

And so even though the roots aren't, um, lit up, the roots are responding to needs and commands from a plant that is actively photo synthesizing, and then, then in the dark cycle, those, those commands and needs of the photosynthesis are no longer taking place. And so I imagine that the, the roles and the tasks of, of the root zone change when the plant is, is, uh, is changing modes from photosynthesizing to, you know, the, the, the processing of nutrients that it does during the dark.

Mm-hmm. . Exactly. I think that's, and I think the keyword there is change because if they take up a bunch of nutrients during the, the daytime, then a lot of those exit dates that are helping with nutrient acquisition should be active. Like they're, they're actively like, you know, fishing out the different components that it needs and putting it into the plant so the plant can continue to grow. Um,

and those would change if the light is gone. And they do have, like, we even know from like, you know, those green potatoes, like roots themselves can sense light, um, both outside like sources of light, but also the inside sources that we were just talking about, like the light, like the light that the plant above is sensing is also like notified. They notify the roots that they need stuff. Right. Um. I think this is, I think this next question is, is, is the,

is the seal the deal question that I've been looking for? So, so if the, if the root zone is doing different tasks when the plant is experiencing light because the plant is asking for things involved with, you know, photosynthesis, production during the day, those types of tasks, and then, and then when the light is gone, the root zone changes to different sets of tasks. That would seem to suggest to me that it needs a dark period.

So those dark period tasks can happen. So maybe, maybe I'm right, but for the wrong reason, for, for a reason. I didn't realize, I thought that during the dark the exudates would stop. And maybe that's not it, because exudates happen around the clock. Maybe it's that the exudate and signaling that happens when the plant above is experiencing dark, those differentiated tasks need to have an opportunity to happen to, to have a thriving plant. Yeah.

Yeah. I think that could be a, a reasonable way to go about it. I think that there's also two things. I guess there is dark reactions and they're like evening onset, um, types of, of things that change in the plant, um, that are responding to a lessening of light, at least when we're not talking about like, growing light when we have actually like changes in light over the daytime as well. Mm-hmm. , um, you know,

your plant on the balcony or whatever. Um, but there's also light independent reactions that tend to happen kind of at any time. And what I mean by that is like photosynthesis is light driven. Like you absolutely have to have light for that whole series of, of chemistry reactions to happen. Um, whereas the, like other types of reactions don't need light like that.

So they might be happening 24 7. What I really think, for my own personal opinion, definitely an opinion, um, is that, uh, a little bit of darkness helps because one thing that, uh, light is, is a stressor. It creates all these like, fast happening reactions. It's quite powerful. It can make really reactive molecules that if they're present in too much, they can damage the plant, Um, and those kind of things. So I think having 24 hours of light constantly would Yeah.

Maybe mean that you don't have the downtime that you need to take care of any kind of damage that's coming from light and that kind of stuff. So for, I guess my, my way in on this would be like, a little bit of dark is helpful, I think. Mm-hmm. , Does that make sense?

Yeah, it does. And I'm grateful to hear it . Um, so, um, this idea that there can be too much light, um, is, is interesting because, you know, most of us, or, or folks who grow indoors anyway, um, you know, while, while I've been historically an outdoor grower, I've been, I've been dabbling in indoor just to, to learn new stuff. And most of the time, cultivators are looking to blast the plants with as much light as is possible without bleaching or burning the plant.

And what I'm hearing from you is that there really is a, uh, a top end of how much light we necessarily wanna give the plant. Um, because there is, there is too much, there's a, there's a top level. Yes, there is. Um, I think especially with like, I, I have most of my experiences is growing inside. Um, and I think there's different things to think about, cuz you can definitely have too much light inside, but it's not like an overall amount of light.

There's all these focal lengths that come with bulbs and it kind of, it's like shining a laser, you know, the magnifying glass on the, you know, something flammable in the, in the sun kind of thing. Like, it focuses all the light from the bulb to a single point. And if you're growing in that point, it's really strong, but like, just for that little area, and that's too much light, but there's so much sun out there, I don't think any indoor bulb at this point has ever gotten to the point where

it can compete with the sun. Um, it's just too dim. The spectrum isn't strong enough and a lot of the damaging wavelengths that we, we think of with light like uv, uh, B or C are just not present, uh, in the same quantity unless it's like, you know, a UVC light or something like that. Does that make sense? Yeah. And. So. There's, there's too much point light and then there's too much general light. . Yeah, I was making an overgeneralization about the too much like a,

as if it was all sunlight. But that's, that's true. Like all, you know, no matter what kind of bulb, uh, we are talking about, um, it is, it is some degree less than sunshine. And so that's probably those, those that gap between sunshine and whatever the personality of the bulb is, that's probably where the hitch and the giddy up is. Right. Is is somewhere in what the bulb is lacking when compared to the sun.

Mm-hmm. . Yeah. So I think in indoors, like most of the light stress that I've seen is like, you turn the lights on right after you spray something on the plants and you get some like lens burning where the lights just kind of magnified and focused at a point. So you get like little point burns outside, you can definitely see a lot more types of light damage and stress because it's

so bright out. And if it's hot too, like the plant just has a really hard time managing that level of light in, in that those poor little photo systems get a little stressed . Mm-hmm. , when, when we talked on the phone the other day kind of preparing for this discussion, um, you used a term that I, I really liked.

And I don't know if it's if it's it's a scientific term or if it's just something that you were using to describe to me because you, you've, you used such fantastic examples, but you used this phrase, uh, free living microbes and, and, and I remember talking to you, I, I remember like, Oh wow, I never, I never really thought about microbes that were in the soil but weren't really interacting with the plant. Would you just talk about free living microbes for a moment? Absolutely.

So essentially when we think about ecology and like what's happening in the, in the soil, there's, we definitely talk a lot about microbes that interact with the plant, but there's a couple different levels they can do that. There's symbiosis where they need each other, and then there's kind of like opportunistic sort of interactions where they don't, So when I talk about free living microbes, um, we generally use that term to mean things that kind of, that, that are just,

they're in the soil too. They don't have to be next to a plant. They don't, like if you remove the plant, they go on living, they, they do their thing and, and they, they, it's not the same. And if anything, like maybe the plant needs them more than they need it, if that makes sense. Mm-hmm. , but if they're free living, they, they can complete their entire life cycle, um, without a plant, if that makes sense. Mm-hmm. . So,

so that also brings up an interesting question about the opposite. So, so you said, Oh, there are some of these microbes that, that wouldn't exist without the plant. Um, is, is this one of the reasons why it is, it is so helpful to the cannabis plant to have other companion plants around because, uh, these, these other plants are, are helping support these, these, uh, free living microbes and it just makes the entire r osse more complex and more thriving and more abundant?

Oh, I'm sure that's true. Yeah, because like cover plants for example, essentially what they're trying to do, um, is, is improve the soil life. And that happens either through, uh, like providing a matrix, like all those roots provide basically housing in a lot of ways, like a little scaffold for different things to live on and in and under. Um,

but it also might help with, for example, maintaining humidity longer. Um, so that if there's microbes in the soil that prefer to be wet all the time and they don't like drying out, then you might have that layer is, is happier because there's a plant there keeping the moisture locked in. Um, maybe they don't like a lot of light and they're kind of shading the surface of the soil a little bit. So maybe the fungus can get a little bit more close to the surface or something

like that. Like I, I'm sure there's dozens of different things that a companion plant, and we also plant like, uh, I personally plant, uh, clover because it tends to also, it has an interesting relationship with bacteria that actually lets it take on and fix more nitrogen than a lot of other plants do. But it also brings the benefit of having that nitrogen fixing relationship with

these bacteria that also benefit plants around it. So the, the cannabis plant itself doesn't do this, but the fact that there's a plant near it that does improves the nutrient nutrients in the soil. Mm-hmm. , Um, one of my favorite reasons, and the, and the first reason I started companion planting, um, uh, for my cannabis is I had a, earlier in, in my cultivation history, I had a, a tendency to water incorrectly. I was doing, uh, too much,

not often enough. So I needed to water mm-hmm. less, more often, but less. And, um, I had a tendency to get, uh, hydrophobic soil. And, and for folks who aren't familiar with that, that means that the, the top of your soil container, um, gets kind of hard. And then when you go and you, you hand water, the water just kind of slides off and, and goes down the side instead of actually, um, soaking into the soil.

And this happened to me all the time. And, um, I eventually learned, uh, during the shaping fire, water and watering episode that if you use a, um, a, a companion plant or, or in this case, what we would consider a, a cover crop, um, with that has lots of roots, say, for example, a clover or, or, you know, some types of grasses, um, they not only can provide like the, the, the canopy, if you will, to create this little moisture vapor area between the tops of its

leaves and the soil. So the soil just generally stays more moist. But also, I was going for the fact that all of these roots that go down in the soil all are providing like small tunnels for the water to actually go into the soil itself. And, you know, I actually solved my poor watering just by adding, um, a, a, a multiple, uh, root, uh, plant. And then that, that problem just went away. Yep. That's, and, and the other wonderful thing that you're doing is you're also introducing

different types of exit dates, which improves your, your soil life. Um, so then you're just getting, it's just more all the way around. . Uh, so, so are there, are we aware of any, um, you know, either, either companion plants in, in cannabis? Of course we use these, we use the idea of companion plants to often be the idea of like a bigger plant that's we're planting nearby like a, you know, like a,

like a ca cabbage or potatoes underneath it or whatever. And then, and then we kind of use the term cover crop, even though we, most of us in cannabis use that term, not how it's traditionally used to talk about, um,

lower plants, that there's a lot of them. Um, I'm kind of backing into this question, but what I want to ask you is, um, are there plants that you are aware of that share, um, exudate flavors, complimentary exudate flavors with cannabis plants that we should grow about can around our cannabis plants simply because they increase the vibrancy of the kinds of nutrition our cannabis plant is going to want, thus suggesting, Oh, you should grow these plants because it too will attract the kinds of

nutrition and, and make it more buffet style for your cannabis plant? Ooh. I think that the, the honest answer to that one is I don't think we're anywhere near that level of detail in the exit date, Uh, scientific realm, like even just to identify exit dates is super challenging cuz you can't,

you can't even grow them in soil to be able to collect them. Um, so all of my experiments, for example, are done in a fog ponic setup that I made, um, so that I, I can actually access the roots without the soil because of course otherwise you

capture all the exit dates from all the bacteria too. Um, so I, I don't think that we could get that, that specific, but I do know that they've been doing a lot of interesting research with, um, with crops and companion plants and crops and the running theme there is usually, um, something that fixes nitrogen, um, really helps because it brings in not only the, the nitrogen fixing aspect, which is usually the limiting factor in plant growth, um,

but it also brings all of its, its symbiotic bacteria with it. But I think as long as you, as long as you have, uh, a cover crop as, as we were just talking about, that's improving your soil, um, texture or soil,

um, health in general, I think that you're good. And so for me, like the, the anecdotal answer would be something like, uh, we plant, uh, clover partly for the nitrogen fixing, um, but we also plant things like basil or, um, marigolds that can act like trap plants to kind of give us a sense of, of whether or not we have pest things to worry about, um, and that kind of thing. Or, or anything that helps like pollinators come in and that kind of thing. Cuz uh,

that usually, I dunno, more life is better usually. Does. That make sense? Yeah, I follow that. You know, this, the, the example that you gave, um, I had not really considered how difficult your research must be because I figured there was just some way for you to, you know, grab the exu dates, you know, you know, scrape 'em off, scrape, pull up a plant and scrape some off the, the roots, you know, that were in soil. But, but that's right. There's all everybody else who's in there too,

especially the bacteria mm-hmm. , they're all laying out exudates too. And so it's just like a mess and you can't tease them out. And so you're using this fog ponic system, so the, so the roots are just dangling and there's not soil life interacting with it. So in, in an odd way, you're, you're like an exudate rancher. Like you've got to you, you've gotta, you've gotta do this ponant so that you can collect them first. Yep, that's correct. Yeah, we have other couple other ways,

but they're all like, really, they're all complicated. Um, you can do sterile culture like, um, tissue culture, um, but then the necessity of that is you have to have a plant you can grow in tissue culture. And if I was working with, with, um, cannabis, I think it would be easier because it, it does grow in tissue culture, uh, which would be nice. And then you can just sample the media and,

and extract the me the ex dates from the media. Um, but there's lots and lots of plants out there that don't like tissue culture that won't grow in a little tiny box, um, or, or trees, some of which I'm working with right now that, that just defy defy hydroponics in general. So yeah, you gotta get clever about it for sure. And it is very much like ranching, .

. Right on. All right, cool. Um, so let's go ahead and take our second break, uh, during the third set Stick with us because we're gonna be talking about, um, uh, uh, salt based nutrients and exudates hydroponics and exudates and uns sulfur molasses in and exit eights. So come on back. Um, you are listening to Shaping Fire and my guest today is plant biologist Sarah Lane.

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So go to youtube.com/shang golo or click on the link in the newsletter. Welcome back, you are listening to Shaping Fire and I am your host Shangle Los, and my guest today is Plant biologist Sarah Lane. So let's talk about a couple of the applications of, of exudates, um, uh, with, with with common situations that we deal with as cannabis cultivators. And um, the first one I want to talk about with you, Sarah, is,

is salt based nutrients. So, you know, on this show, we, we generally, not generally, we very specifically support living soil, um, you know, a biomimicry of, of, you know, the natural world and, um, are are not big fans of salt based nutrients generally, but, you know, I always know I need to give them a, a fair shake when it comes to science cuz that's,

that's really what we're listening to is the science not my own biases. So, um, I'm curious to know, um, what kind of a relationship that that using, you know, bottled salt based nutrients has on the exudates, um, and their ability to communicate and the, and the community I guess. I think that's, um, I think most of the time when we're talking salt based nutrients, like it doesn't really go very well in living soil, which is my preferred method of growing too. So, um,

we're on the same page there. I think, um, with salt based nutrients, there's sort of two things that happen. One is, um, like we were talking about earlier, it can really disrupt the signaling. Um, or at least that's my, my theory because you're introducing a huge amount of nutrients to the plant, um, that it would've been making all these wonderful little ex dates to try and tease out from, as we were saying earlier, microbes or, or the soil itself. Um, and you're just flooding it.

So I think that it would pretty significantly disrupt the ex date type, at least, of what's being produced. Um, the other thing it does is it really kind of messes around with the chemistry of the soil. So, um, like if you're only feeding salt based nutrients, you end up with salt buildup and stuff like that. And that can happen in a, in a living soil system too.

And usually those conditions aren't really conducive to microbial life or root health and you end up just getting a lot of compounding problems. Um, so, so it's, it's less about, um, the salt based nutrients somehow masking the, the chemical signatures or anything that it's just that, um, the, the people who are normally, uh, uh, giving off the exu dates and receiving the exu dates, um, they're generally just not there.

Yeah. Like I think, I think the plant, if, if it's got all the nutrients it needs, it's gonna put its resources elsewhere. And um, and I think if you're compromising the soil life at all, then a lot of that signaling would would be as, as we were saying earlier, probably dampened would be my guess.

Mm-hmm. dampen, that's a good word. Yeah. Um, you know, a lot of the, um, you know, a lot of people are playing with soilless mediums that are increasingly more and more, um, uh, you know, cocoa based coco quo to the point that some folks are just like, like they, they don't have soil in their substrate. Right. It's, it's, it's not really hydroponic, it, it's, but it's just, uh, it's,

it's cocoa and it's nutrients. And, um, I'm curious if these, these types of coco and soilless mediums, um, have any impact on the, on the signaling capacity of these exudates? Um, I, I guess what I'm asking is, is the, is the soil component, um, key to the ability of the exudates to be able to do their job? That's actually a really good question. And I was just thinking about that cuz of what your previous question was.

There are circumstances, so I think the real problem I have with so salate nutrients is if it's in combination with living soil, because they're in living soil, you're relying on this microbial life to help provide nutrients and it just gets all out of whack. But like for example, in my research, I have to use salt based nutrients because I need a very defined set of

nutrients that, um, to be able to repeat my experiments. Um, and in that case, with the fog pons and that kind of thing, it's, it's not necessarily like the ex dates are going away, it's just that the types of ex dates that I'm looking at are nutrient based and

not microbial based. So I don't notice a difference. And in that case, I think in coco or peat or something like that, as long as you're not relying on the bacteria that, or, or fungus that are present to assist you in the nutrients, it wouldn't make as much of a difference. I I think it would change the expression of the ex dates though. Like the types of ex dates that are produced would be different. Does that make sense? Yeah. Cause you're still gonna be producing them.

And it's really interesting for you as a living soil cultivator at home, but needing to use, uh, salts in the lab, um, that puts you in a unique position to be, um, you know, comparing and contrasting them. Um, let's talk about like, if, if, if you're using a, if you're using salt fertilizers in a, you know, in a soilless medium like cocoa and you just said that if you were in that kind of environment, it wouldn't,

that the exudates wouldn't be there. It, it would be that there would be nutrition based exudates, um, you would just be changing the variety of exu dates that are there, that are being expressed. My question would be, would that impact how the plant expresses itself?

It, it seemed to me that if we are, are changing the exudates that are, you know, part of the cacophony in the soil that we're gonna get, you know, uh, different colors on the plant, different terpene profile, maybe a difference in quality of thriving. It seems like the plant would express itself at the top level. Is there, is there any weight to that? Yeah, I think so.

I think like if we were to go back to our bizarre metaphor from earlier, when you, when you feed salt based nutrients, it's kind of like putting in a really big box store or something like that. It really changes the flavor of what's happening in that location. And I think that changes the personality of, of the soil.

And I think like to borrow a, I don't know, personifying my soil now, but you know, like the, like the, the conversations that are happening, um, and the types of players that are there changes pretty significantly. And I don't doubt that that would also change the, the plant itself. The plant is very flexible. It's going to do its best to grow and to thrive in whatever circumstances that you put it in. But when you change those circumstances,

it's going to change itself to fit. And so, um, and, and I know lots of people that anecdotally say that terpenes are different and, and like cannabinoid profiles are different when you grow in living soil and stuff like that. Whereas like when you're feeding salt based, maybe you're going for weight and the plant is forced into putting more weight on cuz it's got these extra nutrients and maybe it makes less.

And I don't know that for sure cause I haven't studied it myself, but I think that anecdotally I've seen that happen mm-hmm. . Right on. So, so even, even though you haven't seen the science for it, it makes, it makes intuitive sense. Mm-hmm. . Yeah, I would say so. Right. And like, one of the reasons I like living soil is because it sort of gives the plant its own options. Like it's, it's complex. It's,

it's kind of a fun way to think about ecology too in, in a pot, you know? Um, but it, the plant is really able to pick and choose a little better than kind of, I don't know, force feeding salt, if that makes sense.

Yeah, for sure. And we talk a lot on, on shaping fire about the importance of, you know, a a a complex and thriving mesosphere to have a complex and thriving plant so that you have a complex and delightful terpene profile and, and the more you're simplifying what is in, uh, the pot, say for example, using a cocoa soilless medium and salt based nutrients, um, I think the example you used was put just putting 'em in a big box store, so you're gonna get big box turfs out of it mm-hmm.

and not necessarily the, a full range perhaps. Yeah. I think that's totally reasonable. And again, like this also ties into carbon budget because when you're, when you're forcing a plant to grow in a specific way, you're also asking it to allocate all its resources in that direction too, which generally means it has less for other stuff, which maybe is stuff that we want like terpenes.

. Right on. Um, uh, let's talk a little bit about, um, uh, I think what I think I can probably group hydroponics and fog pons together, but if not, tease them back apart for me. Um, uh, I'm curious because, uh, you know, we've, we've, we've talked significantly on this show about the, um, soil food web and then somewhat about the water food web and a hydroponics solution and a, I'm assuming a fog solution. We're talking about the water, food web.

And, um, I'm wondering if there, the quality and number and variety of the exudates that are in those systems sound like there's going to be less since you initiated this by saying, Oh, I use, I use a fog pons because we're trying to, um, ranch these particular exudates and in soil, there's just too many. So I'm assuming that in hydroponics and in, in in fog pons, that there are going to be less exodus based on what you had said earlier.

And so with hydroponics with this same, um, idea, um, crossover from the soilless mediums, that, that there may be reasons you want to use hydroponics, but in the end there are going to be less, uh, varieties of exudates and, you know, signaling conversation, taking on, uh, take, you know, going on and nutrition. So you would run into the same problem with hydroponic systems that you're not aggressively, um, Yeah. Supplementing, I guess. I think.

So, Yeah. Mm-hmm. . Yeah, I think that's fair. I mean, for me, the difference between fog, pons and hydroponics just quickly would be just like the, um, I don't know, dryness, if that makes sense. Mm-hmm. , because, uh, the fog pons is, even though it's nutrients, it's very dry. Like the roots aren't sitting in water, they're not, um, they're not like soggy.

So anything that's really intolerant of flooding, um, I've been able to grow more successfully in fog phonics, um, as opposed to hydroponics where a lot of hydroponics, your, your plants are really sitting in water or constantly sprayed by water or a lot of stuff like that. But it's a really subtle difference,

I think because the nutrient solution I use for both, um, is the same. Um, so as, as far as like it compares pretty well to soilless, I think the biggest difference, at least for me, wouldn't necessarily be in exit dates. It would be more in like root architecture because, um, the plants in a, in a like peat or cocoa, it's, it's more like soil for like how they can grow. Um, but on the exit date level, I think that the same is probably true. There's gonna be a, a more defined set of exudates.

They're probably coming mostly from the plant and you, you miss out on some of those interactions with bacteria and fungus and stuff like that. And there's still maybe some that can grow in those kind of conditions, but a lot less than would be growing in soil, at least as far as I can tell. Right on. Um, I also wanna, um, add a little something for all my hydroponics people who are listening who are now like pissed at me because I'm, I'm, I'm underselling their craft.

I wanna be clear that I do understand that, that some hydroponics, um, you know, there's a lot of varieties of hydroponics. I mean, we had, we did a really great, uh, soil food web show, uh, couple years ago with, uh, Steve Reisner. And, and you know, he does the, you know, first of all, he is heavy into, uh, bringing in, uh, you know, water with, uh, with mom and fish poop in it mm-hmm. .

So there's a lot of complexity there. And, um, and, and he was describing, you know, the, the great flowers that he pulls from his setup, but, but he also has some soil in the mix, right? So he's, he's like flooding and draining the soil and he's got the fish poop. And so he's making this like incredibly biologically active environment that makes, you know, flowers with terpene profiles that, um, that he says we, we,

we don't even get in, in a, in a straight soil medium. So I wanna be clear, when, when, when I'm talking about the limitations of hydroponics, I, I'm talking about, you know, the kinds of stuff that people are generally either doing, you know, in, in their, in, you know, in the extra room, in their house, or at, you know, wild scale of corporate cannabis, I absolutely appreciate the fact that there are really tasty ways to do complex hydroponic. So. That totally makes sense.

And I would like to add there that like each of these growing methods has its place and the plant will grow regardless. Um, and so I, I know I've had some really good hydroponic weed before. I know that I've had some really good living soil weed. Like they, they all have, they all have their way of doing things. And I also think that there's ways to make hydroponics more accessible to

bacterial life. And like you were just saying, with a different terpene profile that you don't get with either of the other two. And that just kind of goes to prove the point that what you're putting on your roots does change. And, and same with the type of life that you're growing changes what the plant is able to do. And sometimes that's for the better,

depending on which method you're using. So definitely, like whatever you're growing your plant in is better than not growing your plant at all. . Yeah. There, there you go. And you know, that's one of the challenges that we ran into, um, during these like 24 hours of lights debate. People are like, I grew a huge as plant that was absolutely beautiful and totally got me high. And, and, and every all my friends bought it from me, and that was great. And they're all like,

Why are you telling me that I I shouldn't be using 24 hours? And, and, and my response is always, it's, it's not that I'm saying that you can't grow plants and that your plants are gonna suck if you, if you do, you go 24 hours, I'm saying that you're probably leaving some quality on the table, um, by doing it 24 hours and your terpene profile could be better and the plants could be better, and you could be more press, more pest resistant if you just, uh,

gave it four hours of, of sleep or six hours of sleep, it would be helpful. Um, but, you know, internet debates are rarely that nuanced, you know. . Oh, it's so true. And I, I, I do think that like, even, it doesn't really at the end of the day matter if you're growing a plant that suits your tastes like however you're doing, it's great. I mean, unless you're dumping like illegal pesticides on it or something like that,

maybe, maybe don't do that. But you know, like, I think at the end of the day, everybody's gonna have a way of growing that works for them. And there's absolutely, these debates are all like trying to tease out the, the finer ways of growing and like the best way to grow. And that's gonna be very much personal preference at the end of the day. Um, and I personally prefer the taste of living soil weed, but I've had really good weed that's been grown in every other condition you can

imagine. So I'm, you know, Yeah. Here, as long as you're growing a plant, it's fine. . Yeah. I, I'm with you there. And, and it also gets me when, when people are demanding that, you know, their, their recipe of how they grow is, is the best and one and only. And I'm like, that's that, that shouldn't even be coming out of a, out of a cannabis cultivator mouth. You know? It, it really depends on what your particular needs are and your resources and your

location. And, you know, I would, I would love to grow differently than I do, but I also don't live in California, you know? No, totally fair. Yeah. Yeah. Which, which, which pushes me towards things like short flowering thing in auto flowers, right? Mm-hmm. , um, you know, if I lived in California, I would probably still be focusing on my own cultivation on photos. So, All right. So fair. The next thing I wanna talk about is, um,

is unsolved molasses. So, um, it is, it is a pretty common in, um, in living soil for, for folks to, um, think that they can make up for not giving, I guess I'll call it like whole nutrition, like whole amendments, like, um, let's say like, um, like, like fish meal and, and crab shell and maybe alfalfa meal. All all of these amendments that we love to use in living soil, um, to have an, an abundant variety of nutrients there for the, uh, the,

I guess the exu eight processors to chew through and then give to the plant. So, and, and so the exu eights come back and then they feed the microbes. And this is beautiful relationship. And it is not uncommon for people to say, Well, you know, I don't, I don't need to do all of that to take care of my microbes because I just, I just feed the microbes with unsolved molasses and, and you know, that that pains me because, um, I, I, I have a gut feeling that just pouring sugar into the soil,

um, is not a great idea. And, and, and molasses is kind of uni dimensional, whereas micro life is so, uh, so vastly complex and, and I get where they're coming from, right? Because when we are brewing a compost tea, um, we will often add a bit of unsolved molasses to that so that the, um, the microbes have, have something to eat so that we can, uh, incubate them and have a whole bunch of them in a small place that we can then

pour onto our plants. So I, so I get where they got the idea, but I think that is a misapplication of the understanding of what effect molasses has on the microbe life in the RSOs sea. So, so as somebody who, who has an intimate relationship with exudates, what are your thoughts on an adding unsolved molasses directly into the substrate as part of some sort of nutritive root drench? I am gonna go back to the theme of the day, which is,

it's complicated. And it depends, I think, um, I think that if you are trying to recover your soil life just with molasses, that it really depends on the health of the soil that you're adding it to, because that molasses, just like it does in compost tea, is, does have sugar in it. I'm sure things will like to eat what's there and grow. Um, but that means that anything in your soil you're adding it to is gonna grow too.

So if you've got some nasty, you know, anaerobic bacteria in, in your soil already, like that's gonna love it as much as the next thing does. Um, and the other thing is like a lot of the amendments we add, um, provide different, um, I don't know, different opportunities for different types of microbes to come in.

So if you're only feeding molasses, and that's how you're getting your, your microbial life, like, it might get there eventually, but it's also going to be the microbes that specifically like molasses and you'll miss out maybe on some of the, the kelp or the crab meal type. And again, this is all kind of conjecture because truthfully, the science isn't there to, to be able to specifically identify each different bacteria that come with each

of these. But, um, that's, that's what my gut feeling would be. Um, if you're already, if, if you're health of your soil is really good and you're already adding compe, compost ts and things like that, if you're diluting a little bit of molasses in water, I don't, I don't think it's, it's harmful. Um, but again, like I, I do think that the biggest factor on whether that's a good idea or bad is probably the health of your soil to begin with. Does that make.

Sense? Yeah, it does. So, um, yeah. You know, is there anything that we can do to encourage healthy exudate creation by the cannabis plant? I mean, we've talked, we've talked a bit about like just generally keep your soil healthy. Got it. But is there anything that we can do, like a, uh, is there, is there any kind of a, a a, a fermented plant juice or a supplement or, or in anything that we could do to encourage exudate creation?

Because they really do seem to be a, um, a, a baseline to a thriving plant where, um, if, if you've got poor exudate activity, everything that happens more complex than that, um, is going to be limited by the, the sad exudate system. So is there anything that we can do that's pro exudate that, that we should consider? Ooh, that is a good question. Um, I mean, I think the best answer is probably no

and yes. Mm-hmm. , um, no, there isn't a magical thing that as much as it would be nice to just like promote root health and the healthiest roots you've ever seen, just like sprout out of the, um, out of the soil and you're good to go, um,

because really it actually ends up being about root health. Um, and that's where the yes part comes in because you can support root health by, um, like the type, like you were talking about earlier, proper watering technique, um, where you're making sure the roots aren't like super dry and they're not super wet or anything like that. Um, you can promote root health with soil texture. Um, you can add these compost ts and things like that, like we've been talking about,

to promote the type of microbes that you wanna be there. Um, you can give them lots of space to grow. Obviously more roots equals more ex dates. So if you have a nice big root ball, I'm a big fan of big root balls though, cuz it's my thing. So mm-hmm. , um, that, that's probably what I would say is like good, good root health. And so, um, yeah, I think that's, but I mean, again, it's so hard to say how to get good root health and it's sort of trial and

error. So philosophically speaking, these kind of conversations help too because you'll find people all over the place that have different ways of making sure they have healthy roots, and maybe one of those ends up working for your particular strain or type of plant. No surprise that you're a big fan of ru balls being up there in bc the land of Natasha Riz, who's been on this show talking about ru balls as well, .

Mm-hmm. , my Canadian friends all love the, the love the cannabis ru ball, um, good. Roots equals good plant . Totally. It's so nice to come to an end of an episode without anything new we have to do. You know, usually when we go through these episodes at the end there's like, Okay, I need, I need to learn about this and I need to start adding this and I need to learn how to start, you know, making this Korean natural farming prep. But really at the end of the story,

we've learned a whole ton about exudates today. So, so a we stop repeating bro science, and b we have like a more intimate relationship with an understanding of the biology of our plant. But really if, if you're already studying living soil and trying to have a healthy soil, like the exit eights will take care of themselves. And it's, it's so delightful to just be able to get new understanding without new tasks.

It's true. Root health is just, you know what, just keep doing what you're doing and go the healthiest plants that you can. And, uh, and the, the plant is very good at taking care of itself. So if you give it the opportunity too, then you won't have to worry about it. Fabulous. Well, Sarah, thank you so much for sharing your time and,

and expertise with us, uh, today on Shaping Fire. You know, I mentioned this in the introduction to the show that, um, you know, you really do have a, uh, a rare specialty and to find somebody who is, you know, doing this at the, at the PhD research level and also is a home cannabis cultivator, um, makes you exceptionally unique to be able to bridge between the academic science side of Exudates and our beloved cannabis plant.

And so thank you for, you know, taking two hours and sharing it with us so that, uh, that we can all become more familiar with Exudates. It's been absolutely my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. Fabulous. So, um, if you want to, uh, keep up with Sarah Lane, uh, the best place to do that is, uh, uh, through her Twitter and her Twitter account is Exude Rootly, so that's E X U D E T T E R O O T L Y.

So that is a great place to keep up on her research and her interests. Um, if you happen to have a, like a more of an elaborate question or comment perhaps, uh, then a, you know, a Twitter account will allow, um, she also, uh, invites you to send an email if you'd like. And that is s lane, s l a n e, at u vic.ca. So that's u v I c.ca. You can find more episodes of the Shaping Fire podcast and subscribe to the show@shapingfire.com and wherever you get your podcasts.

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