When we take a toke of cannabis smoke or vapor, we can feel it in our lungs. Our lungs are very efficient in swooping up cannabinoids and plugging them into our bloodstream to be distributed around the body. This inhalation begins a cascade of bodily reactions throughout us. Most of us take them for granted nowadays. These reactions happen all over our body in subtle ways and significant ways. Some are medical, some are funny.
In all our ways, our body is rebalancing itself in the presence of phytocannabinoids. Today, we're going to take a look at the human systems that fire up in the first few minutes of using cannabis. If you want to learn about cannabis health, cultivation, and technique efficiently and with good cheer, I encourage you to subscribe to our newsletter.
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If you like what we do and wanna put something in the tip jar, you can Venmo at Shango Los. You are listening to Shaping Fire and I am your host, Shango Los. Welcome to episode 123. My guest today is doctor Elizabeth Thompson. Doctor Thompson holds a PhD in pharmacy emphasizing cannabinoid pharmacology, a master's in clinical physiology, and a BS with honors in microbiology and genetics.
Her current research focus investigates the various roles of cannabinoid molecules in elite contact sport athlete populations. Currently, doctor Thompson is a member of the groundbreaking research team partially funded by the NFL to investigate the use of cannabinoids to reduce brain and neuroinflammation caused by concussions. Today's episode is about the first five minutes after smoking cannabis.
During the first set, we will talk about inhalation, the respiratory system, taking and holding big hits, bronchiolilation and asthma, and the changes to your cardiovascular system, vestibular dysfunction, bloodshot eyes and blood pressure changes. During the second set, we focus on the endocannabinoid system and nervous systems, binding to CB1 receptors, the biphasic nature of cannabinoids in the body and how to use CBD more realistically and effectively.
We also look at psychological states and mood generally right after you talk. And we will look at changes in your coordination too and look at why sometimes cannabis make us perform better and sometimes it makes us perform worse. And we wrap up the third set talking about edibles and how our body changes delta nine THC into 11 hydroxy THC and why that makes edibles truly a different drug than inhalation.
We will also talk the importance of rectal and vaginal suppositories and the process they go through when inserted into your human. All today on ShapingFire 123. Welcome to ShapingFire, Doctor. Thompson. Hey, Shango. How are you today? So great. So good. And really glad that you're able to join us. Congratulations on your, recent successful PhD. We're we're all proud of you and and happy to have another, strong cannabinoid researcher in the mix as you.
Thank you so much. And I will tell you a really quick story, but the very first person that I ever heard that piqued my interest in cannabinoid pharmacology was actually on your show. And it was, doctor Meeabi Shields, who is one of my favorite humans ever, but it was actually on your show, I think, maybe six or six or seven years ago. Fantastic. Oh, I I I love those episodes with Miyabi Shields as well, especially all the biomechanics, which makes sense since that's the same reason
you're here today as well. So yeah. So, shout out to doctor Miyabi Shields. So thank you for that. Yep. So, so let's see. So first of all, let's, let's let's remind folks from the intro that the episode today is about the physiological reactions that the body makes when consuming cannabis in the first five or ten minutes after talking. And we'll talk about edibles and suppositories
in the third set. So we're we're we're mostly assuming that we're talking about inhalation since that's what most folks, how most folks use cannabis. And, and I think this is a good point that we talk about individualized medicine. And and I'm sure you run into this all the time, Liz, that that that just because we're talking about bodies generally does not describe anybody's
body in part in in specific. And so so even though we're talking about these these ways that the bodies can act or generally act, that that people's bodies are unique and and for us not to assume that it's the same answer for everybody. Right? Yeah. Absolutely. And, actually, I cannot think of a space that that applies to stronger than cannabinoids and cannabinoid pharmacology because when we're looking at and this is why I really love this. I'm a physiologist. My
master's degree was in physiology. And so I'm a really big nerd on molecular mechanisms and systems and stuff. And, you know, when you're looking at humans and you're looking at invoking any kind of change, I always compare it to the seed in the soil. Right? You can have a plant seed. And depending on what kind of soil you're plopping it into, that seed's either gonna grow, or it's gonna grow funny, or it's gonna die, you know, depending. And so for me, I look at a human
body as like the soil. Right? All these soils are different, and how things play in that soil is super individualized. And the endocannabinoid system is incredible neurophysiological system that I love so much. And, you know, pharmacologically, when we are looking at how these molecules work, there are some there are definitely some generalizations. But, really, the biggest generalization is that everybody is unique for sure. Good. So so I will be asking you some questions today that may
seem unfair, like some why questions. Right? And why is always really hard in science. I know. I know. But but since you have got this, like, you've got a real gift for translating, some of this hard science into, you know, usable stuff for layman, which is one of the reasons why I invited you on the show. So so when I ask you some of these why questions, first of all, I encourage you to indulge
me. But then also, you know, feel free to, you know, put the science together into, you know, some storytelling that you think makes sense. I just wanna call that out in advance because I know that the why questions are kinda unfair to ask a scientist. But but in this in this in this realm, I hope you just roll with me.
Okay. For sure, I will. And, actually, as a physiologist, I love the why questions because it kind of, you know, especially again in in pharmacology, a lot of medicines, we don't look at the why. We're just trying to cause we're covering a symptom with a medicine, and we're not asking the right question. The question is, why is that symptom happening? The symptom isn't the problem. The symptom is the result of a problem. So why is that symptom happening?
And that is true physiology is you're going upstream to find why is there a problem. And so, yeah, I I I might not be able to answer all of your whys, but I will try my best. Excellent. Alright. Well, then, I guess, let's start going, like, downstream from from the the moment that, that the cannabis enthusiast, takes a hit from their, pipe or bong or or whatever. The first thing that happens is that they are inhaling
into their lungs. Now I've got a handful of specific specific questions, but would you just give us, like, a a a brief explanation of the of the next couple steps? They they inhale and what happens? Physiologically. Yep. For sure. So when you inhale, you're inhaling, just the same the exact same thing happens as if you were just inhaling normal air, but now you're inhaling air that contains cannabinoid molecules. And so when you inhale air, you have to think of your lungs kind of
like a tree. It's an upside down tree. So you have, you know, you have your oxygen intake is coming in, and it's traveling through your nose and your mouth. And then it's going through the big thing that looks like a trunk, your bronchi, and then it's going down into smaller, smaller branches. And at the very end of those branches are alveoli, which are essentially the leaves. And in those little things, the little alveoli kinda look like balloons. That's where your oxygen is gonna exchange
with carbon dioxide. So in a normal breath, without cannabinoids, you're bringing in oxygen. So when you inhale, and then when you exhale, you're breathing out carbon dioxide. Now when you're inhaling, you're taking a toque with your air is coming in the cannabinoids. And so that same exchange is happening, but with the oxygen, it's going in the cannabinoids. And it's gonna go
to the same place. It's gonna cross your lung, barrier right into your circulation system, and it's gonna start circulating just the same way oxygen would. It's gonna roll through your circulatory system, and it's gonna go right up into your brain, and it's gonna go into all the tissues and all the other places in your peripheral circulation as well. So it's kinda like a ride. That's the best explanation I've ever
heard. Thank you for that. You know, one of one of the things that always is remarkable to me is how fast it happens. Like, you know, in in medical cannabis, we talk a lot about, you know, the various ways to use cannabis for different types of ailments. And and we always talk about, well, inhalation is the fastest onset because the time from inhalation hitting the lungs into the bloodstream, into the brain taking action
is is so short. You know, like like, literally, you know, can be as little as ten seconds in some cases, so fast. And, the lungs must just be so efficient to be able to take in cannabinoids at the same rate that we take in oxygen. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and also it depends on your blood volume or on your so your lung volume. Right? So how big your lungs are. So I specifically work with athletes and some of them have incredible lung volumes.
And so those are the things that even, you know, the generalizations of inhalation are one thing. But when you start getting into the specifics of each individual human, you know, some of these guys that are trained, their lung capacities are amazing. And so the amount of air that they can potentially take in, you know, expanding the lungs. And then you have sensors when your lungs expand that do all kinds of things. And so, yeah, it's it is incredible, actually.
But you would think of it the same way that you think of oxygen. Right? We need oxygen immediately and to be sustained also in order to live. And so it's really riding the same wave as normal oxygen would be. So anywhere oxygen's going, that's essentially where your cannabinoid molecules are gonna roll into as well. Cannabinoid molecules are lipid based molecules, so they are going to
get into the fatty tissue. But that's one of the advantages of it as far as when, again, one of my main focuses is on concussion. And so because cannabinoids are lipid based molecules, and your brain is made of fat, that's actually an advantage to us to be able to get that in up into the brain
and where we need it to function. And so when we're looking at head trauma, you would think, okay, you know, if somebody got smashed in the head and there and there are different applications, you know, different administration routes for cannabinoids have different advantages. And the advantage or the disadvantage, depending on the context of
inhalation is that it's fast. And so if you have a, you know, potential concussion, and you have massive neuro inflammation happening in your brain, and you inhale, you can immediately get those cannabinoid molecules right up into your brain, and that's what you wanna do. You want it to be fast. Now if you are somebody that had something like, say, arthritis that is more of a slow burning pain, well, inhaling because inhaling is fast on, fast
off. Right? So that might not be the best administration route for something like arthritis because you want to be able to have a sustained pain reduction, say, overnight. Well, that would be someplace where maybe an oral tincture or potentially an edible that has a slower onset, but it also has a slower offset. And so, you know, in pharmacology, we can look at what what are we after? What are we trying to do? And then look at the different administration routes to see if that's going to be
an advantage for us. And inhalation is definitely an advantage potentially for concussion. And also, you know, migraine, headache, acute pain, things that are things that need immediate, like, to be immediately addressed. So, I think the biggest thing in cannabinoid farm like, cannabinoid pharmacology or anything to do with cannabinoids, and my own kids wanna slap me when I say this because they ask a question, and I always say context matters. Mhmm.
Like, you cannot paint this with a broad brushstroke because the context of what you're asking matters. So, you know, what cannabinoid are you using? What is the human you're looking at? And and so I think that's one thing and this is completely off topic, but I am gonna say it because I don't feel like I'd be a responsible scientist if I didn't, that I think right now in the space of cannabinoid science, as scientists and researchers and quote, unquote,
cannabis is 500 different bioactive molecules. And and they're all different, right? So when somebody says, Well, what does cannabis do? Okay, well, are you talking about THC? Or are you talking about CBD? Or are you talking about CBG? What are you talking about? Because they all do different things, right? So I think we really need to focus on the the context
of what we're saying. And then the flip side, you have media that are sensationalizing headlines, and they're saying, you know, cannabis causes heart attacks. Okay. Well, that's not necessarily true. What in cannabis are you talking about? Are you talking about a synthetic cannabinoid? Are you talking about THC? CBD doesn't cause heart problems. Like, it's so you know, I think we have to be really careful and be more
specific. And also with the patient population or even the data sample that we're working on, when we come up with data, I'm focusing on athletes. My data pertains to athletes. They are high performers. They are not sick. They are people that have a different body mass. You you know, they have their body mass index has high muscle, low fat, lots of circulatory benefits. That is not the same as somebody who is extremely overweight, who is injured,
who has other pathological problems. And so I think we have to be really careful when we're talking about what data is out there to be sure about what we're looking at and how we're interpreting it. And and same thing, you know, when it goes for the brain, an example I'll often use, you know, when people can't really differentiate between, they have a hard time, I think, publicly wrapping their head around how even an inhaled,
you know, an inhaled product. So we're talking about inhalation, I did get off path here. But what are we talking about? You know, if you have an, somebody that's had a concussion, right, this brain is massively inflamed. So inhaling good idea, versus an adolescent child that has, their brain is developing, they don't have any inflammation, they don't have any inflammation. They don't have any reason to be looking to change and alter their endocannabinoid system.
Those two brains are not the same. You know? Those are two very different contexts that we're looking at. How are we gonna use these cannabinoids and why? And And I just feel like we need to now because we are putting out more data, and the media is starting to hop on all these, you know, sensationalized, titles, you know, for clickbait or whatever. And and they're confusing people, I think. That's my tangent. Right on. Well, you're you're definitely accurate
about all of that. And I like your idea that, you know, one size does not fit all, which was the point we were trying to make. And I really like your, your phrase that, inhalation is fast in fast out. I think that those of us, you know, this audience is is is pretty sophisticated when it comes to cannabis. And and we've all we're all familiar with that, but that phrase really brings it down in a way that makes it really easy to communicate with people.
While we're talking about the lungs, I wanna talk about the myth of holding hits because, I can't I can't, or, you know, I can't bring this up enough. We have had other, you know, cardiovascular and respiratory, scientists on this show. And and, and it's always important to bring up that we've been taught to hold our hits so that we can get as much THC and other cannabinoids out of it. But that's not really how the lungs work and it's really better if you just inhale and exhale naturally.
Would you just hit on this briefly and kind of explain the science behind that? I just want everybody's lungs to be healthier. Yeah. For sure. I can do the best, you know, the best that I can. Again, we don't look so much at the details of, you know, inhalation and trying to get
as much cannabinoid concentration as possible. But when you look at how your lungs function, there's a few things that you mentioned there is when you breathe it in and you just hold it, your lungs are just staying still, right? Your lungs have sensors on them that when they expand, that's giving information to your body about what it needs to do. And so when you're just holding it, you're not sending any messages for your lungs to like, you know, diffuse it faster or
more. It's just and what you're doing, you're essentially holding your breath, which, I mean, we've all done it when we were eight years old to see how long we could hold our breath. And and we all, you know, fall over and whatever. But all you're doing there really is holding your breath. And that's really you wanna be as safe and as natural as possible with your body and the way that it's
supposed to be functioning. So a nice breath in and a nice breath out, you're gonna be exchanging the oxygen and the carbon dioxide that is supposed to be getting exchanged in that. But you're just including the cannabinoids in with the oxygen as well. So there's no advantage to sitting and holding it. In fact, you're just gonna get light headed because you're essentially just holding your breath. Beautiful. Beautiful. Thank you. So, you know, I anybody who listens to
the show regularly knows I've got asthma. I tend to talk about my asthma a lot. And one of the things that, I can't say that it it attracted me to cannabis because I found out it was a bronchiolator after I was already using cannabis. But, you know, people said, oh, it's, you know, the the cannabis that you use must
be helping your lungs. But for me, my experience with cannabis was, smoking it until I coughed and then it would, you know, this this seizing feeling in my lungs and then that would eventually pass and then I would take another hit. Right? And so, I've never really quite understood this what seems like a contrast in to me that that, cannabis is a bronchiolator while also I experience as, bronchiol constriction. And my only guess is that you're gonna
tell us it's from particulate. But how can both of these be true? So it could be from particulate, but that's a different mechanism altogether. So what I would say and what you describe there is that isn't necessarily when you're coughing, that isn't necessarily
bronchial constriction, that's bronchial aggravation. And so when you start coughing, it's because something has been triggered that's aggravating your either your breathing way or your lungs, and you're starting to do it's a muscle spasm, essentially, to try to bring up whatever is aggravating that air passageway. So there is, you know, there are things that do bronchial constrict.
For example, and one, one example that we see a lot actually, and is when people mix, their cannabinoids or their cannabis flour with cigarettes because cigarettes are actually constricting, but cannabis is actually dilating. And so people think, okay, well, if I mix them together in a spliff, then they're gonna, you know, wipe each other out or neutralize each other. And that doesn't actually happen either because, again, when you think about your lungs being like a tree,
all those branches okay. So now pretend it's a water tree and and there's water flowing through the trunk and the water is flowing through all of those different branches, like little like hoses. Right? Then if you grabbed a branch and you folded that hose in half, now you constricted that branch. But what it did was it forced the water to go to a different branch. Right. So you're, you're
playing with the levels of the pressure. And so in your lungs, when you roll your cannabis with tobacco as well, you know, in cigarette or you put it together, you can actually have constriction and dilation at the same time, but not in the same place. So different branches would have different, you know, you inhale these molecules and different branches are getting different signals. Our body is one humongous signaling machine and there's signals being sent all the time. So,
for asthma, it is true, actually. It's, it's kind of cool. But back in ancient times, they used to use cannabis as a treatment for asthma. That was what they used it for. And because it is a bronchiolator, and so it can open up the air passageway so you can get more oxygen into your lungs, which then goes into your body to feed all of the tissue in the muscle and stuff. So, yeah. So, but I would say that if you start coughing, for sure, it could be particulate.
And we know, you know, there is also, you know, some byproducts and stuff that could potentially be irritating to the actual tissue of your lung. Sure. And that's gonna start sort of kicking. Those branches are gonna start tweaking sort of, and that's gonna cause you to cough. Right? And so some kids actually have, you know, asthma, actually, asthma in general, not even with cannabinoids, it can start triggering their lungs to kind of freak out, and they just start coughing,
even without cannabis. Mhmm. But it's it's actually asthma induced, you know, coughing. So it's it's a trigger. It's, you know, again, nerves. Right? Nerve signals, and then it's muscle spasms. And so HCA is also kind of a muscle relaxant as well. And so for, you know, it bronchiolates, but it also does, relax those muscles that are sort of triggered and coughing. And so yeah. Great. Excellent. Alright. So so so, as far as we're moving downstream from the toking moment, so we we've we've
inhaled it. We know we don't wanna hold our hit in. Hopefully, we don't get any, bronchial response and coughing. And so we've got a little bronchial dilation, which is making us feel smooth and easy. And so so now the cannabinoids are into our blood system, and and and now we've hit the cardiovascular system, our our heart and blood flow. And we're we're to this point, sometimes, like, within a minute. And and and so let's talk about that. So so what's what's the better way to
discuss this, Liz? Is it is it better to have you explain these next parts, or should I, start asking you questions about it because the reactions in the body are so spread out? They are definitely spread out because we have to remember that the endocannabinoid system and these receptors that these molecules are
interacting with are everywhere. And I'm sure that, you know, your audience probably has a baseline understanding of how cannabis is even working in general, But it has everything to do with your endocannabinoid system. And we have to remember that these receptors are there everywhere in our body to naturally accept molecules that are stereochemically almost identical to things that we secrete ourselves.
So I think sometimes it's hard for people to sort of think, well, like, why are these cannabis molecules rolling around and doing all of these things to me, but and actually science didn't even know why until we isolated, I think how it isolated the first receptor in 1988. So this is a baby science, like understanding our endocannabinoid system
is a baby in science years. But, to really to really recognize what we're doing, we have to give, again, shout out to the endocannabinoid system because it is everywhere, and it is normally receiving molecules that you secrete yourself. So, really, there is no place in your body that these molecules are not gonna affect. Right? They can affect so many different things.
So chemically, mechanically, what's what will happen once it hits the cardiovascular system is our our our our blood vessels will dilate, which will decrease our, blood pressure, which increases our heart rate. Right? So to us as a consumer, we feel suddenly sped up. And it's and it's the at the core of it, it's because the the the blood vessels have gotten a little flimsy, and and and so it kind of softens our our blood pressure. Right?
Yes. Exactly. And so, a good way to think about that, and that was a really good explanation, is your body is very, there's a lot of sensors. Like I said, like, everything is a sensor in one way or another, and it's telling another part of your body what's going on in its neighborhood. You know? And so a reductionistic view of the body, which, again, sometimes in pharmacy, things are very reduced. They're monomolecular targets that these drugs are trying to hit.
But and they work for certain things, but they're ignoring all the other neighborhoods around that one, you know, town that the molecule is trying to affect. And so when you're thinking about how those things work in your body as far as, like, your blood vessels dilating. So you inhale it, your blood vessels dilate, but there's triggers. So that's a sensor and your body picks up on that and your heart's like, holy crap, there's no blood pressure
down there unless she wants to faint. I gotta speed up because we need to pick up the pressure. So they get the, you know, the blood starts moving faster to increase the pressure so that there's some tension against the walls of your arteries, you know, so
that it doesn't feel so flaccid. And so anybody that has POTS or, you know, any kind of low low blood pressure regularly, you know, just by nature, a baseline low blood pressure will know, you know, when they stand up too fast or when they make sudden movements. If they don't have their sensors, you know, their sensors aren't able to adjust as quickly as somebody that doesn't have POTS or, you know, orthostatic tachycardia. So
it's it's the sensors. And so your body is doing what it's supposed to be doing. When it when THC dilates, your body does exactly what it should be doing. It recognizes, holy crap, the blood pressure just dropped, speed the heart up, and and it's working. Your body's amazing. It's doing exactly what it should be doing. Now it freaks people out sometimes because they're like, oh my god. My heart's, like, mega racing. And, you know, then depending on how much THC they use, they
might completely freak out. But Well, for freaking out can sometimes be be part of the rite of passage, unfortunately. We'll we'll we'll talk about, by the biphasic nature of THC here in a little bit. I I do wanna, I do wanna flag what you said about POTS.
I do have POTS. And for anybody who is listening who, you know, when you have a toke and then you go to stand up, if if you tend to get more dizzy, if your vestibular system tends to be more off than other of your friends, give a little, give a little search on Google or similar for, POTS. That's postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome. And this isn't an episode about POTS, so we're not really gonna go into it. But suffice to say that,
cannabis makes it a lot worse. And I found out about POTS on a podcast and looked up, and I'm like, oh my god. I've had this my whole life. And and and now now I understand how to work with it, and I don't black out as much. So that's great. Yep. Yeah. And one caveat to that again is that's specific to THC. Right? CBD actually doesn't have that same effect. And so CBD, my supervisor actually published a paper with, a colleague of mine. So if you just look up, it's, Neri and Singh paper.
And so it that's your that's your autonomic nervous system being kind of dysfunctional. Right? So your autonomic nervous system is the nervous system that is in control of your body without you consciously telling it what to do. And the easiest example is if someone jumps out and scares the crap out of you, your heart rate goes through the roof. You did not tell your heart rate to go through the roof. Your body was responding to its environment. Why did your heart rate go through the
roof? Because you went into a sympathetic overdrive and your body thought, I'm under attack. I need oxygen. I need glucose. I need and and that's what you get when your heart rate goes up. Right? So your autonomic nervous system really is in POTS. That is what is, it's off kilter. And so they published a paper. Again, it was post concussion because because POTS people that have concussion often have similar sort of symptoms. Right? Like, it's it's an umbrella thing where you're and and no two
concussions are the same. But when your autonomic nervous system is off kilter, what you're trying to do is regulate your ability to flip between sympathetic and parasympathetic autonomic nervous system. Sympathetic is your fight or flight, and your parasympathetic is your rest and digest. And so if you're chronically stuck in one or the other, you can't regulate yourself properly.
So in their, published paper, they use CBD, and they were looking to see, so we can use heart rate variability as a proxy measurement to look at your autonomic nervous system and see, is your autonomic nervous system good? Like, is it flexible? Is it responsive? And we use it in athletes a lot to see, are they ready for harder training? And so if they have a good heart rate variability response, we know that their system
is recovered. If they don't have a good heart rate variability, then we know that their system's under pressure and they haven't recovered yet. Right? So they use CBD in this publication, and they were able to, increase these post concussion they were female post
concussion patients. They were able to increase their heart rate variability using CBD, which is an indicator that they're able to massage the autonomic nervous system back into a place where it can be flexible to get out of the overdrive of sympathetic or overdrive of parasympathetic and get it back regulated into homeostasis. Wow. Well, thank you for that. I definitely am gonna go and read that paper. I am a, I'm a nerd for the autonomic system, but mostly because of my own issues.
But Yeah. I'll I'll go look that up. Thank you. Let's let's talk a little bit more about vasodilation. You know, one of the classic signs of somebody being, stoned is that they've got bloodshot eyes. And, you know, it was actually in preparing for our chat today that I I I found out that it's not about having dry eyes, which is what I always thought it was. It's because the, the blood vessels in the eye have vasodilated and they're they have widened. And so now we can see them in the eyes.
Do you know of any good solution for bloodshot eyes other than eye drops? Is there is there anything else that we can do? No. I don't I don't know of anything better than eye drops. I yeah. That's Yeah. I don't either. I I figured I figured I'd throw that in there, though. Yeah. Yeah. No. Definitely not. But again, context matters. Right? That can be an advantage when we're looking at people that have glaucoma or they have pressure in their ocular. So we wanna
dilate that because what are we doing? We're getting more oxygen and blood flow to the places they need to go. Right? So yes. Yeah. For sure. But I I don't know anything else other than the blood draws. Yeah. Fair fair enough. So so with the cardiovascular system, you know, we we started by talking about how intimately it is, connected with the endocannabinoid system where they they more or less occupy the same space and they have a lot of the same participants.
And, but we we you know, when we talk about it, we're like, okay. The cannabinoids, you know, they go through the lungs and into the bloodstream and and then, you know, to all of the receptors around the body. And the idea that the, the the cannabinoids, the phytocannabinoids that we have entered into our body, you know, just somehow get in the blood and then the blood moves around the body.
Is it as basic as that? I mean, that's how it looks in the grade school, you know, animations of how the body works. It it is it that simple? It seems like the cannabinoids would have a long way to go to re reach all of the receptors in the body. And are the are the receptors on the periphery less likely to be activated? Yeah. So it really the thing that's really interesting about the endocannabinoid
system is it's a compensatory system. And so when you think about, and that's why it works so well for so many different things. When you have an injury of any type, so now you've entered in the cannabinoids into your body, right, and it's circulating around. So remember, you have your and we'll just talk about the two very basic ones. CB one is on basically central nervous system. CB two, it is in motion circulating on your endo on your immune cells, right,
primarily. Those CB two receptors, they're moving. And that's why pharmacologically, it's like a moving target. And now when you have an injury, so if it's an injury in your brain, for example, like concussion or even an injury, any kind of neural injury in your periphery, there's an upregulation of those CB one and CB two receptors, meaning you have way more targets. So if you think about it like little birds in the nest, all of a sudden you have, like, 30 birds in the nest waiting to
be hit when there's an injury. And so when you can send in the cannabinoids, it's gonna be more it's more effective at the places that it's needed because there has been a compensatory activity of the endocannabinoid system to upregulate those c b one and c b two receptors, and there's changes in other
things. But we can we can harness that as an advantage again using it pharmacologically because knowing this and we know with neurodegenerative disorders again, I know I'm talking a lot about the brain, but that's where he's been my time playing. But, if you think about the neurodegenerative disorders, we know that CB two upregulation in microglia, which are basically the resident immune cells in your brain. Now, again, people think CB two
is only in the periphery. It's not. You have c b two receptors in your brain on your microglia, which are the immune cells of the brain. When you have any kind of neuro trauma or or just even a metabolic crisis, those c b two receptors upregulate. And we know that that's the common denominator for almost every neurodegenerative disorder.
So we're talking ALS, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, MS, concussion, post concussion, because when your microglia are aggravated, now CB two receptors are up regulating and we see that in all neurodegenerative disorders. And that means to me that when you're aggravating any kind of nerves, but now we're talking about the one in your brain, the immune system around it is playing a massive role in the crosstalk between those two systems. And
we know that in the brain. We know that if we hit that c b two receptor, we can flip the microglia out of a pro inflammatory state, which they're throwing all kinds of pro inflammatory cytokines and chemokines. We hit it. It can flip into an anti inflammatory state, and now it's not throwing those things and it's more throwing anti inflammatory
molecules. Right. And so by reducing that, and that's why we think like in our clinical trial that we can, use, use the receptors to our advantage and the fact that they do change. So it's not as simple as what you said, you know, it's rolling through and your body's rolling through your body is a very dynamic system. That's always changing itself. And so there will be different places where you have more,
adhesion molecules and different things. And so as it rolls along, you know, it's gonna, CBD is a really good example of this. When you have, when you have an injury and your blood cells are rolling along down your blood vessels, it gets sticky where there's an injury. So there's, it's like adhesion molecules and the CBD rolls along. And as it's rolling, all of a sudden it's like Velcro, it's, it's stuck. It like it's stuck. Your blood vessels get
stuck. Right? So when your CBD goes there, when CBD goes there, it actually can reduce those adhesion molecules, which means that it kind of smooths it out. So that now you're not gonna be pulling all those pro inflammatory things there that are gonna end up causing a problem.
So you can, again, it's it's depending on what's going on in your body, but it's the cannabinoid molecules are circulating and doing the exact things as the rest of your body is doing, which is patrolling and checking out what's going on. And then based on what's going on in those areas, it will, you know, act accordingly type of thing. That's interesting that it changes so often, and then there is such variability. And I think that's kind of the case with anything that
people have gotta learn. It's gotta be super simplified so you can explain it to people. But when we get really into the nitty gritty of it, it's it's way more variable and and difficult. And, and, the the idea that the receptors are on the move is something I had never, thought of either. I always kind of considered them, like, they they lived one place. And it makes it a lot more of a, like, a a hunt and a hunt and seek adventure. So, before we're gonna about to go to break
here, our first break. But before we go to I just wanna say, doctor Thompson, how much I appreciate, having a newly minted PhD like yourself on the show. You are so up with all your vocabulary and all of the new science. It's it's I I just get excited and smiling just listening to you talk because you're you're so clearly in the midst of that the cutting edge right now and it's really, it's it's a real joy. So thank you
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So, Liz, we we were just starting to touch on the nervous system as we went to commercial, and that's where I wanna I wanna pick up. And so, you know, you know, THC begins binding to those CB one receptors in the brain, and and those are responsible for mood and memory and and time perception. What is what you know, can you kind of explain to us a little bit what's happening biomechanically
there? There must be a lot going on in that on that c b one receptor because it controls a lot of, you know, nervous and neurological stuff. Yeah. It really does control a lot of stuff. And, again, context matters. So when we're talking about in in your brain, so we're talking about moods and stuff, different neuron types have different concentrations
of c b one receptors on them. For example, like, dopamine receptors don't directly well, there's been recent publications that say, potentially, they do. But, they would have a different concentration of c b one receptors, you know, the GABA neurons. This like, all the different neurons are a little bit different as far as how how the c b one receptors, they function the same, but I guess it's
the concentration of them. Okay. So when you look at how the c b one receptor is working, again, for the context mattering in a concussion I'm just gonna talk about concussion because that you have mood troubles. Right? Like, mood changes, and they have a lot of different things happening. So we know in concussion that the neurotransmitter glutamate is being oversecreted. Right? So that's a neurotransmitter where the presynaptic neuron is is basically secreting into the synaptic space, and
too much of it. So it's just it's out of control. So your endocannabinoid system, naturally, from the postsynaptic neuron is gonna secrete anandamide in two a g, which travels in retrograde, hits the c b one receptor, basically shuts the calcium channels, and that shuts off the oversecretion of glutamate, which is something that we would want to do in concussion. And that was actually the premise of our whole clinical trial was, like, hey. Do you think we could
use these plant molecules? Because so your endocannabinoid system does that itself naturally anytime you invoke some any kind of, you know, oversecretion of glutamate. But what if you can't? What if you can't actually hit those c b one receptors enough to turn down the volume of that oversecretion of glutamate? And so that was my thought was, well, couldn't we come in with an exogenous molecule like THC, which we know is stereochemically similar to the naturally secreted endocannabinoids?
Couldn't we come in with that plant molecule and hit that receptor, and then shut down the oversecretion of glutamate as well? And so, that's just one example. Now that's in the context of concussion. When you're not concussed and you're just normal guy that's taking care of their brain and hasn't gotten smashed in the head, you're naturally, we kind of say that eighty percent of your brain is the breaks that are holding back the other 20% that's trying to, like, run away
crazy. Right? So, basically, you're you're under inhibitory control at baseline. Right? Like, when you're normal. So when you're normal, your GABA, which is the opposite of glutamate, which is essentially the brakes of, you know, if you think of it like a car, glutamate would be the gas pedal. GABA would be the brakes. Basically, you're riding the brakes mostly at at baseline. And now when you take THC, when you're riding the brakes, you still hit that c b one receptor.
And now it's gonna shut the calcium channels, and what you're gonna stop secreting is GABA. And now GABA is an inhibitory molecule. When you inhibit an inhibitor, you basically end up with an increase. Right? So you're inhibiting an inhibitor. So basically, what you're doing is you're taking the brakes off. So now, what that does is it sends a signal to the dopamine neurons to secrete dopamine, and that's
what is known as the high. Right? So you're you're basically taking the brakes off, and now dopamine secreted, and that's where you feel good. Now the biphasic nature, again, if you take the brakes off too much, you have a runaway train. You just took away way too much of the brakes, and now there's they're way too little GABA. And that's where the anxiety and paranoia comes in. Right? And that's the biphasic part of THC anyways is that, you know, it's the dose that makes
the poison in all medicines. And that is said to be true also with cannabinoids because they are just as pharmacologically active as any other pharma drug we look at. It's just that people have a hard time wrapping their head around it because they're available in society. Right? And they're coming from a plant, but they are absolutely pharmacologically active and doing pharmacological things the same way any other molecules are.
I wanna, just hit on the phrase biphasic just for folks who are listening and and that's new to them. Because because we talk about it quite a bit on this show. But biphasic means that a little of something is good and more of it is not so good. And THC is in that way in that if you take, you know, a a a small for you amount of it, it will, you know, it's a euphoric and and and it's opening creativity and joy and all of these all these good, positive feelings.
But if you take more than is appropriate for you, It and to put it in your terms, it it it it takes off all the breaks and things get really loose and sloppy to use my words. Yeah. And, and and so you start to become anxious and paranoid and and and things things go the wrong direction. Now for for for any of you who might be thinking, I smoke all day and that never happens to
me. It's because you've got so much tolerance that you haven't been you're not experiencing the the far side of biphasic and maybe you need to take a tolerance break. But but for most folks who don't have a wicked tolerance like I do, you know, there is there is a point where you've talked too much and and and you you move it moves from being a euphoric to, what would that be? A dysphoric? Yep. Yep. Dysphoric. Yeah. And and CBD, that applies to CBD as well. It's not just
THC. CBD is biphasic as well. People think that CBD is sedating by nature, but it actually is very biphasic. A small a low amount of CBD is actually alerting. Most people are stimulated by it. And if you don't push the dose high enough, if you're looking for sedation out of CBD, if you don't push your dose high enough, you're gonna accidentally stimulate yourself. So if people and this is where the education part comes in.
Right? And I'm super huge on educating consumers about how to use their cannabinoids the most optimal way possible. And you don't want somebody thinking, okay. Well, I'm gonna go use CBD because I need help getting to sleep. And they take a tiny amount and it stimulates them. They're trying to go to bed and they're like, what is going on here? Like, this is so not as if they're setting up. I run into this all the time with people who are buying CBD gummies at the store. And then, like, they
never worked for me. I'm like, yes. Because they're not they don't work like that. Right. Exactly. And and, again, that comes to the personalized applications, you know, the personalized medicine type of thing because it is a different amount. So, you know, what is a high amount? Well, it's relative to the person. Right? So what is a high amount for me might be a totally different high amount for
somebody else, right, for them. But it is true that it's biphasic that in the lower amount CBD is stimulating and alerting and in a high amount, I mean, much higher than it can be sedating. But again, what is what is much higher? Well, that depends on the person. Right? Some people, it's a lot lower than other people. So, let's move on to the oh, no. There is one more thing I wanted to hit here. It's it's it's often thrown around that, CBD can stop you from getting high. Right?
It's usually how it's delivered. But I don't think most people understand the biomechanics of really it's just about getting your turn at the receptor. And would you would you give a brief explanation of how CBD slows the progress of processing THC? Yeah. For sure. Actually, one so Robert Lepreri was actually actually one of my PhD committee members, and he was the person, I think it was in 2012,
that actually discovered this and published it. And it was that CBD is a negative allosteric modulator at the c b one receptor. And that's a mouthful, but what it means is so in pharmacology, when you're looking at a receptor, you basically have again, if you're thinking about it like a baby bird, the beak is the orthosteric pocket, and that's what you're trying to hit with your molecule. Now the neck, that would be sort of that's where the allosteric site is. It's on the side of the receptor.
CBD hits the side of the CB one receptor, and it turns the configuration of the top of that receptor, which means THC can't fit in there the same way that it used to with when CBD wasn't on board. So by using some CBD, we can turn the we turn the orthosteric pocket slightly in three d, you know, in three d space, which affects the way that THC can or cannot bind to the orthosteric pocket, which is basically the bull's eye, right? That's what you're trying to hit is the orthostatic
pocket. So you need to have enough CBD on board in order to do that to stop, you know, if you're trying to reduce any kind of cognitive impairment, you know, we would say at least have a five to one ratio. You know, some people say four to one. 20 to one is, you know, common for people, you know, that don't want a lot of THC. But, yeah. So it it it CBD changes the CB one receptor.
However, CBD does a lot of other things outside of the CB one receptor, you know, with direct agonism at some, you know, the five HT t one a receptor, p bar gamma, the TRP ones. Like, it's CBD is doing it's very promiscuous. It's doing a ton of different things. I always love it when people say it's promiscuous. It seems so out of context. Right? Right. I picture it, like, walking around the bar with his sunglasses on. Like, yeah. What are you doing? Yeah. I I just like yeah.
Right on. So so let's move on to our next, our next system. And and we've actually pretty well hit it. The next one I was gonna talk about was the ocular system, but we've already talked about two of the three things, which is one, the vasodilation causing the blood vessels to expand in the eyes and, and then also the the the the general, muscle relaxation that comes to the face from the THC.
But one of the things I wanted to point on just because, we are both friends with, Ethan Russo, and, I'm a big fan of his, research, from, 02/2003, 2004 showing that cannabis improves night vision. And they did this research of keith smokers in the Rif Mountains in Northern Morocco because they would use hash before they would travel at night because it would help them see at night, which which honestly sounds like
Dungeons and Dragons magic. Right? Yeah. But but, Jess, would you just hit on that just for a moment, pharmacologically why that happens? Yeah. So I I don't know if I know enough to speak specifically to why their vision would be improved necessarily. But, if you think on and this is gonna get, like, way into the weeds. But if you think about how your senses work, your eyes, your ears, your nose, it's all essentially,
transmission of of ions. Right? Like, if you think of how your vision works as wavelengths of light, and those wavelengths of light are activating neurons and causing a signal. And so we know, you know, epilepsy, for example, we know that it can affect the ion exchange, and that's how you calm the neurons down when babies are having seizures. We can use cannabinoids to do that. So we know that it's affecting
the ion channels. And so when you're thinking about vision and how how you actually interpret wavelengths of light, it comes down to physics. And actually, if you really drill down, so now I'm going way past molecular mechanisms, and I'm going into like quantum mechanics, it is it is actually fascinating how many things you can change, even especially and even in the endocannabinoid system by changing ion channels. And what you're doing there is you're changing its physics, right?
And we know in nerves, so again, in your eyes, it starts as an action potential and action potential is an energy. It is not a chemical, it is an energy. And so I could see there being a place if I'm just thinking in my mind, like, how would that work? Well, somehow, you know, and it's night vision as well. Like, I could see it working. But somehow I think it would get down to the wavelengths of light and the physics of it.
And having something to do there also, you know, you would have kind of the other things that are more broad, but, like, you know, your sensations are all heightened. Right? So they're able to to hear more, smell more. It's just like when you, you know, smoke and you go eat the munchies because your taste is heightened. Everything is heightened. Right? So that things taste better. Sometimes things smell
better. Art seems to come better, but it's it's down to the action potentials in those neurons, which is essentially electro. You know, it's electric. And and in that synopsis, you know, even even muscle movement, it starts as an an action potential, which is electricity, which then gets changed to a chemical signal at the synopsis of the neuron. And so in concussion, you know, we're we're trying to control the action potential, which is electricity.
And I think that the endocannabinoid system essentially is a it's like a transistor. Like, you are controlling energy. You're sort of you're manipulating the electric loops, basically. That was great. When you said that you were gonna take a left and go into the weeds, I knew it was gonna be good because when, when scientists just start riffing, that's that's kind of my favorite part of the show. Well, cool. None of that none of that has
data behind it, by the way. That's just me thinking because I I really You you you are you are here as the person who has got the biggest picture of anybody who's in the room with us right now. Right? So so so so, your, what do you call that? Your speculation is very valuable here. I wanna ask you a follow-up question that I was gonna ask you during the third set, but but since you're talking about performance right now Yeah. And and how it can expand with cannabis
Yeah. I was curious, you know, coming at it from a like, I know that you work with high performance individuals, but let's think about the same thing with, like, regular performance individuals. Right? Yeah. You know, some of us have had the experience of of, you know, we like playing, like, whatever our sport is. Let's say ultimate Frisbee. Right? We like ultimate Frisbee. But but when we play ultimate Frisbee Frisbee a little stoned, we're epic at it because we see all the trajectories so much
better. And, you know, in my when I was younger and I spent more time in bars, I would hear that same thing about friends, and they're they're playing pool. Right? Yeah. They'll be all like, oh, I need to go out and have a puff because we're gonna play these guys for money or whatever. Right? Yeah. And and yet, there is this biphasic again, I'm not sure if it counts in this place usage, but there there is this
point where you smoked too much. Yeah. And your motor skills are lessened and your attention lessens and and everything lessens. Right? Yeah. Is there a threshold point in us that that it it goes, oh, now you're over? I'm assuming that that it's a it's a it's a it's a it's not a a single point threshold that there's a series of thresholds, but I think you get nowhere I'm go getting at. So what's this difference between, you know, improved coordination reaction time versus, oh, now I can't play?
Yeah. So, I mean, million dollar question. But, again, I will say context matters. And because we're talking about athletics, this is really my wheelhouse, and this is places where I spend a lot of time thinking. But if you think about what sport you're playing, I think that changes the bull's eye target of what you're trying to do with cannabinoids. When you have extreme sports, like I was a downhill ski
racer. Okay? Like you you you cannot be afraid if you wanna go as fast as possible and win, you better chillax and just go as fast as you can. Now using cannabinoids in that context can be quite an advantage because you become very brave. And now I have heard I have worked with elite athletes that are goaltenders in certain things, and it makes them very brave. They're not afraid to take shots of things that are, you know, like lacrosse balls that are really
hard. They're gonna hit you, whatever. It makes them brave. And so now in the context of those things, can you surpass the point of, you know, the optimal point for sure? Because you don't want to make yourself more afraid. You want you're trying to be brave. Right? So there's definitely a threshold there for sure. And in in those types of extreme sports, what you'd be using it for would be different than something like pool. A pool, you're looking for precision
in your muscle mechanics, right? You're looking for precision on how you're moving your pool cue and that that's different. You're not looking to be brave, like, you don't have to be brave to play pool. You're trying to be precise. And so to hit the mark on that one, you're trying to probably you know, it's the same reason why CBG sometimes works like in Ethan Russo's recent publication showing that increased memory verbal recall because it well, not because, but in association with it
reducing anxiety. Well, if you've reduced anxiety, you have more capability to pay attention to the things that are important, and then you can retest with your rear memory recall. In pool, I would argue that it could be like that where you could use cannabinoids to reduce the the background noise of all the things that are distracting to when you're trying to pay attention to this very precise movement.
Now another sport like pool would be, you know, those biathletes that have to do the shooting. You know? You you need to hold really still and focus. And so I think some sports are more effective than others. We look a lot at contact sport athletes. And so we're looking for the purposes of neuroinflammation in the brain, you know, how cannabinoids can work for that. And and my big question for that is exactly like you said, okay, we know it can reduce neuroinflammation.
And we know well, I mean, we think right, we know in mice, we've conked mice in the head, and we know that we can we it reduces neuroinflammation, all these things, but mice are not elite performers. And at the end of the day, when you have a 50,000 or a $50,000,000 athlete, you cannot screw up his reflexes. You cannot screw up his cognitive ability to make a play. You cannot screw up all of these other things, like his reaction time and all those things. The trade off is so you have to
be so careful. Right? And cannabinoids can help, but they can also get you off your game. Right? And so you that is the million dollar question is how do you use these, you know, to help with these athletes specific to their sport in the best possible way? And I know basketball, to part of my PhD research, I actually did a lot of interviews with high level athletes and, you know, so I got a lot of really good firsthand
information. And we all know, I mean, it's no secret that the NBA, they have a lot of cannabis use, right? And a lot of I think a lot of fans are like, man, you know, they're such good players with cannabis. Imagine how good they would be without it. But that's actually not true. When you ask them, like, so why do you use you know, why are you using cannabis products before practice or before games? And they don't say it's to enhance a performance. They say it's to feel normal.
They bring themselves into range that to them is where they normally perform. And that to me was so interesting because it was like, Not at all what I was expecting to hear. That reminds me more of, like, state dependent learning, how we used to say, well, if we studied stone, we should go take the exam stone in college. Right? Right. It reminds me a lot of that. Yeah. And and it could be that, you know, because they've always played that way, that's
what how they feel normal. But it could also be that it's knocking out a lot of background noise, and they can get into what we call flow. It's where you're just moving in your body is moving, and you're making reactions, you're making plays, and nothing else is penetrating your mind. But this game, and actually sports remind me a lot of the endocannabinoid system, because sports is one of the only places in the world where it is happening here and now. It is not based on the past. It is not
based on the future. It is right now. We don't know who's gonna win. We don't know what the next play is, and the endocannabinoid system is the same way. Your endocannabinoid system is working in the here and now. It is compensatory, and it is secreting, and it is reducing in the here and now. And so when you kind of take a broader look at it, it's really interesting to me how we could you know, how these things all kind of overlap, maybe more at a philosophical level. But
Well, they do overlap. And this is perfect because the the next system I wanted to talk about was psychological and cognitive states. Right? And that's that's right where we're moving into. You know, the the the the literature on this often refers to it as neuro chemical rebalancing. Right? Which Yeah. Which, you know, it's interesting because because that's a new term to me, which I
love. I think of it more as, like, you know, changes in focus, sensory awareness, like, of slowing time, getting the giggles, or or feeling philosophical. Like, we'll talk about, oh, you know, this kind of canvas might put you in this mood or that mood. And I tend to think that, okay, sure, there's some there's some research on on terpenes and and esters and things like that. But but more more than anything, I think it really depends on the person themselves
who was using it. I love your example earlier about the soil that you put the seed in. Right? Yeah. If the person is the soil and the THC and the cannabinoids are the seed, you know, it really depends on what kind of soil you'll put the seed in, what it's going to grow into. I will be using that a lot. Yeah. And and but this idea of neurochemical rebalancing at speed, I wanted to ask you about specifically as as, you know, a neuropharmacologist. This this is this is your turf. Right?
What does neurochemical rebalancing mean? And what does what does that, how does that show up in the first few minutes, let's say, in the first five minutes after we toque? Yeah. So, again, you have to think about, the context of what you're you're talking about. Right? So when you toque before you took that toque, your your brain was sitting at a baseline level. So
we'll just call it your baseline level. So you had neurotransmitters that were just kind of humming along, like your serotonin, dopamine, GABA, glutamate, all of those things. So when you take a tote, now you've introduced a signaling molecule that actually reacts with, like and depending again, like you said, whatever whatever the cannabis profile was is actually gonna be
different as what the signals are. But once you introduce it, it's starting to hit targets on all of those different neurons in your brain that actually control the secretion of serotonin, dopamine, glutamate, GABA. So what you're doing is you're changing the bait the resting baseline. So you can call it rebalancing, you can call it unbalancing, you can call it you know, there's a lot of different words that you can use. But at the end of the day, you're sending in a new signal, and we use
it. That is why we're do looking at it for a clinical trial because we want to use this signal to our advantage to turn to reduce the glutamate secretion, which in
concussion is totally out of control. Now, if you're looking at anxiety or depression or other mood dysregulations, When things are dysregulated in your neurotransmitter profile, we can use cannabinoids to try to change that and reregulate it, which is what you're referring to as a reregulation because your body at the end of the day, the end game for your body is to survive and to and it's to be in homeostasis,
which means balance. And so when things are out of balance, your body is looking to re regulate it to bring it back to homeostasis. And that's why the endocannabinoid system is truly so fascinating because, there's so many avenues to doing that. And and there's and because it it is, you know, the active participants are your neurons. It is a neuromodulator, but it's also an immunomodulator,
which is all your immune system. I think people sometimes ignore the immune system part, but that's everything. All pathologies in our body are because either one or the other of those are dysregulated. I mean, cancer is a perfect example. Right? Like, when when you have something that's gone awry in a tissue or in a nerve or in anything, your immune system now is activated. And you know, these cells go out of control in cancer, but your immune system
is responding to that. Right? So the crosstalk between those two is is super important. And so it's important to remember both pieces, you know, not not just the neuro part, but also the immune system part. And so in your brain, where we're talking about mood and stuff, you know, it's only just very recently that we've given any credence to the other parts of the brain other than the neuron.
So we have the neuron, and for a long time, people you know, it was all SSRI inhibitors, which, again, it's like, you know, k. Yeah. You can inhibit the reuptake of serotonin. That's fine. But, like, if you don't have serotonin receptors to hit, or there's something wrong with your serotonin receptors, that's not doing you a lot of good to, you know, slow down the reuptake. It's like, it's this myopic view of the entire
thing. Right? And I think pharmacy has gotten a little bit myopic on what they're looking at instead of you have to remember that, like and the endocannabinoid system is amazing in considering that because it's very evident that, you know, yes, there's the ligands that we secrete, which are an andamide and two a g just for simplicity. But the receptor concentration and the receptor availability is also super
important, and that's easily displayed by tolerance. We know we're changing the receptor concentration, but also the enzymes that are required to make the ligands. Well, that's also something that's super important. Right? So it's not just about the neuron, but what we've ignored in mood dysfunctions and stuff up until very recently is all the other players in your brain, which other than the neuron that's secreting the neurotransmitter,
your neurons, they have astrocytes. So all the glial cells, which are astrocytes, which are basically like providing energy to the neuron and making sure the neurons got enough for metabolic processes, but also those microglial cells, which are the resident immune cells in your brain, We are now starting to have some really good data and research to show, like, when your microglia are freaking out in your brain, that is not a happy situation because it is freaking
it it starts throwing pro inflammatory cytokines and chemokines, and what that does is it aggravates the neuron. So now the neuron starts throwing more pro inflammatory things, and this is just like this big snowball feed forward effect. We now know that mood dysregulations actually have the microglia are super perturbed. So we always, you know, for the last, whatever, 30 is all about the neuron. But, like, I mean, way back when we used to throw out the glial cells and be like,
yeah. This isn't important. Let's just study the neurons. It's like, those are really important. Like, we should not have been throwing them out, and we're just kinda catching up, I think, now. What a crazy idea that, like, you know, you toke and maybe you get in a little of a little funk instead of the normal good mood. And you can think about it as, like, oh, my glia are over antagonized. Right. It really I mean, it really gets down to our mechanics right
there. Yes. And they have their own Like, your microglia and your astrocytes have their own endocannabinoid functions. Like, they themselves secrete anandamide and two AG, and they themselves have CB receptors on it. Right? And so when you're looking at and then you go right down to, like, even the mitochondria, which, you know, we all know from grade school biology. That's the powerhouse of your cell. That's where the electron transport chain happens. It produces ATP, which is the
energy of your brain. Again, electron transport. Now we're getting into energies. Right? Those mitochondria have c b one receptors on them as well, and that is inside the cell. That isn't even a risk a c b one receptor on the outside of the cell. This is a separate population of c b one receptors that are inside the cells in the mitochondria. And your mitochondria are driving absolutely everything in your body. Most most importantly,
your brain. When we have brain fog, quote, unquote, when we have concussion, quote, unquote, your mitochondria cannot produce enough ATP, which is essentially the gas that's running your whole system. So if we can do things that support that to create more ATP, then, you know, that's a benefit to us. And that's where, like, the ketogenic diet and fasting and all those other things come in because we're able to start using fat as
a fuel source to create that ATP. Now I personally think the endocannabinoid system is a bridger between using fats as a fuel source, which is a much higher dense it's a dense, amount of ATP compared to, like, a carbohydrate source. Right? And so in athletes, that's everything. If you can provide your system with more ATP, you are winning races. Now glycolytic sports are fast twitch muscle. That's different. Now you're going anaerobic. Right? And so you need
your creatine. That's a whole different thing. If you're a long distance athlete and you can pull on fat stores to give yourself, like, a 132 ATP versus the 32 you would get from carbohydrate, that's a win, because you you are going to fuel yourself better and longer. Endocannabin your endocannabinoid system is in control of all the bioenergetics in your body as well. And that's why, you know, it was a tragic example. But romanobant was a drug by Sanofi that was pulled off the shelf in 2012.
It was a it was a fantastic weight loss drug, but it was a c b one inverse agonist. And so it was a big lesson to everybody in pharmacy. Like, you can't just go like the thought was, okay, you hit the c b one receptor with THC and you agonize it and everybody gets the munchies. Right? You're hungry. Yeah. Well, the thought was, well, what if we just block it or antagonize it? It was an inverse agonist. So the thought was, let's make it do the opposite. So would
we get, like, the reverse munchies? So they used an inverse agonist on the c b one receptor. And it was a fantastic weight loss drug. It was. People lost weight, a ton of weight. But you lost all the other advantages you get from having that on. Well, the problem was, yeah, you lost all those advantages, but it caused suicidal ideation and mental dysfunction. So that is a big lesson to, like, we are not playing in a tiny space here, and that was a tragic event. Right?
So it got pulled off the shelf. It never passed the FDA approval in The States. But what was really fascinating, and we could learn so much from that, was that people actually started to lose weight before any of those things started to change in, like, the brain profiles. And so what it says to me is that something was happening there that we were able to change the bioenergetics of how we were using the fat and the available metabolism in our body before
the brain part started to change. Right? And so there's really good published research now looking at how cannabinoids can change the bioenergetics of your cell. But it's it's I think it's everything because it has to do with your mitochondria and the microglia because they also need energy. And I think once we start focusing in on that, we're gonna have the the answers to a lot of problems that right now don't have good answers, and they don't have good pharmacological
products. Like, concussion's one of them. Right? Concussion doesn't have a pharmacological option that you can give somebody afterwards. But when you actually look down at the molecular level of what we can do with cannabinoid molecules, you get all the way down to the mitochondria where you're affecting the bioenergetics of a brain that's in crisis. That's everything. We know that these athletes end up down the road with neurodegenerative disorders three times higher rate than normal people
that didn't play contact sport. Well, why? Because their brains are perturbed, and they stay perturbed. So if we can, like, turn the rig around, now we know that we can potentially reduce the neurodegenerative problems that they're seeing down the road. And CTE is just a result of that. Now that's only diagnosable postmortem, but CTE is the result of a very perturbed it's a metabolic crisis when you get a concussion. Right? And
it goes into all these other things. But, you know, it it's a metabolic crisis where you can't get glucose to that part of your brain, and you don't have enough energy. And the downstream problem of that, it starts throwing sparks and problems all over the place. Right? You go into an anaerobic your brain literally goes anaerobic. Like, the way that your quads burn when you sprint too fast and you can't get oxygen to them, your brain is going anaerobic and you're secreting lactate. Well,
with that comes acidic products. And with that, your brain is not happy. Now lactate is used as an energy source, and it's actually in a glucose sparing environment. Lactate's very beneficial, but the acid and everything else that comes with it, you don't want your brain to be anaerobic. You want your brain to be going in oxidative phosphorylation where it can use oxygen, and it can be happy and produce, you know, ATP and everything's balanced.
Concussion's not balanced. Yeah. Totally. That's for sure. Alright. So we see now how, actually, those are a whole bunch of different examples of how, cannabis use is going to, play a role in our psychological and and cognitive, state, especially with neurotransmitters.
Yeah. And, so, when we come back for the third set, I I wanna have, continued discussions about, edibles and suppositories versus smoking, the time for delivery, which is what we started the show with, and also, clean up a couple other things that came up during the show. So, dear listener, hang with us. We will be right back. You are listening to Shaping Fire, and my guest today is neuropharmacologist, Elizabeth Thompson. And, you know, remember, without these
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So let's talk about, the different, modalities I guess we'll call it, of actually getting the cannabis or the cannabinoids into your system. As we talked about at the top of the show, we've been mostly talking about, smoking. Liz put it perfectly, fast in, fast out. It comes on really fast, but then it also gets processed and goes away, the the fastest. And and we alluded that there were other other reasons to use other other methods, which, you know, everybody here, we all know medicine.
Right? And we all know that sometimes edibles are are more preferred for, you know, a range of reasons. Either the person has gut issues, so they need they can't, they can't put things through their gut, or they're not processing things properly, or or it causes its own reaction, or or maybe they are looking for a different kind of relief than than the fast in fast out. Maybe they've got more of a body issue and they need a they needed more of an aches and pains issue.
Right? So so so as as we've been talking about, there's lots of different patients and so there's lots of different reasons. But what I want to talk about, at this point is is the different functioning of the edibles. So, Liz, I want to I want to talk about two different types of edibles. There is the food kind of edible that gets, you know, chewed up and swallowed and then processed. And then there is the capsule with RSO version of an edible that we eat.
But, but that capsule is going to degrade earlier in the process and that, that cannabis oil is gonna get likely soaked in through, tissues, esophageal tissues on the way down. I'm guessing, right? So feel free to correct
me on that. So so what I'd like to start with is would you kind of explain to us the path that the cannabinoids take when we are when we are taking, an edible that is food based like a gummy and or a, cookie versus, taking a capsule that's got oil in it that that breaks down faster? Yeah. For sure. So I think with the capsule, actually, it would really matter on the cellulose container that you had it in just as
an aside. So if you had it in a capsule that was gonna make it to the stomach, it would be essentially digested the same way as the edible one would be. And I think, one big thing and in our clinical trial, this is really important. And the pharmacology of the cannabinoids is, again, you have to look at the big picture of it's not just about the cannabinoids. It's also about what's in your stomach with
the cannabinoids. So we know that when you take cannabinoids in the edible form and you take a fat heavy meal, so you want to take your cannabinoids with a fat, so we say like, you know, peanut butter, buttercream, whatever, it increases the bioavailability four to five times. So we've done some studies looking at a fast versus fed. So, you know, when you're fasted and you have nothing in your stomach, your digestion process hasn't
been turned on at all. When you're fed, when you're fed with just carbohydrates, you turn on a certain type of digestion. When you're fed with fats, you turn on another different type of digestion. Now, cannabinoids are lipophilic molecules. They are made of fat. So when you take your cannabinoids as an edible and you have fat in your body, it kind of mixes in, you know, oil and water don't mix, but oil and oil mix. So these two oil and
oils are gonna mix. And now that we know, I mean, there's a lot of publications on the pharmacology showing that with a fat based meal, the bioavailability does increase about four to five times. So that's something that's important when you're trying to look for, you know, consistency and dosing and stuff like that, and it can affect the outcome. Right? And so first of all so that's the first thing that happens when you take either either product and you put it in your stomach. It's, again,
context matters. What is in the stomach with it? And we can see big differences between, people. Even in our clinical trials, sometimes it's like, did you eat? Because this is a little bit of a profile that did. We can tell. You can't fool us. But so there's that.
And then the edible the other big thing that is important to consider versus you know, when we're talking about inhalation, inhalation doesn't go through first pass metabolism, whereas edibles do go through first pass metabolism, which means that your liver is processing the cannabinoids. And that's actually really important. You know, people think, okay, well, it's it just takes longer, but it's actually not about the time. It's about the chemical
conversion that happens. So I love that eleven hydroxy. Exactly. So and CBD does the same thing. So you have delta nine THC when you take it as an edible, goes through first pass metabolism so your liver starts working on it, and this is part of the digestion process. It converts it to eleven hydroxy THC. Now eleven hydroxy THC is slightly more cognitively impairing, and so now it's actually a different molecule
and it functions differently. And that's why people, you know, quote unquote, they can green out because one, it's the time factor. Right? People sometimes will take an edible, and they won't realize that because of first pass metabolism, it takes a lot longer to feel the cognitive effects. We say, you know, ninety minutes to two hours before you're gonna make a call of if you're gonna take another gummy or something. Right? Give it a chance.
And so there's that time factor. But then secondly, there's the conversion factor to 11 hydroxy with THC, which is more cognitively impairing. And, actually, it has a little bit of a different, you know, shape. So it can it it's potential that it can get up into your brain and then maybe stay up in there. And now, again, I hate that I bring everything back to concussion. But concussion, your blood brain barrier is leaky, and that
makes, again, the context different. Now if you have a leaky blood brain barrier, things can get up in there. And then if they it heal like, it can stay up in there. Right? And that's actually one of the things that we can use to our advantage, with CBD because CBD can get up in there, and then CBD actually helps to seal the blood brain barrier. And so that's an advantage again to using CBD for concussion. But, anyways, back to the edible question. CBD also goes through first best metabolism,
and, it goes to seven hydroxy CBD. And what we have to remember is those secondary metabolites are also bioactive. And so in some senses, you know, 11 is more bioactive potentially in different ways than delta nine. And CBD, same thing. That seven hydroxy CBD is also bioactive. So it's not just a breakdown product. It's a bioactive, component of its own. So now you're giving a whole another pharmacological
profile. And, actually, there was a recent publication on CBG, and it was looking at the secondary metabolites of CBG once it was getting broken down. And in the paper, they propose that one of the breakdown molecules of CBG was even more bioactive than CBG itself. And so, you know, when you're thinking of it from a pharmacy perspective,
those are useful molecules, right? And so, you know, epilepsy is an example that we always use with CBD, but it's potential that the breakdown, the secondary metabolites of CBD are as important as the initial part, and that's how it's functioning in your brain. So when you take an edible, it's completely different. When you inhale, that doesn't happen. Now when you inhale, what does happen is the heating process can change, changes the profile of the cannabinoids and the
terpenes and that. And so there is some chemical changes with the heat. When you're having an edible, the heating has already been done. So the heat profile has changed, not to know if it's exactly the same as inhaling, but it has been decarboxylated to make it active, which people would say decarboxylation is. So when you eat it, now you have that the first pass metabolism and all the rest of that that's going into it. So it does make it quite different,
and it lasts longer. So once you have it, it's not as fast in, right, because of the time, and it's not as fast out. And so with patients, we know that we can hold the therapeutic value in their body if they're looking for pain reduction and stuff. You can hold the therapeutic value for longer because the metabolism takes longer, so you get the therapeutic benefits for longer. That's the best, explanation of how delta nine THC and eleven hydroxy THC are actually different drugs than I've
heard. Thank you for that. One of the things that we talk about when we when people are smoking, we say, you know, the cannabinoids really only stay active in your body for up to four hours, much less when you smoke. And so, you know, for people who have got chronic issues and they need to dose throughout the day, listening to your explanation made me wonder, does the Alexa eleven hydroxy THC, does it last longer than that four hours?
I kind of thought that four hours was was about the maximum time that you're going to get activity from cannabinoids, before you need to re up. But I had never really thought about eleven hydroxy. I've only been thinking about delta nine. Yeah. I couldn't say for sure. I haven't actually seen any research on that looking at, you know, the area under the curve and looking at actually the time. So I don't know. But I know that,
the edibles in general do last longer. So I would think you could say yes because you you know those effects last longer than inhalation. Right? So it's not Yeah. Just based on based on experience. Like we've Yeah. Yeah. All you need is a bad edibles experience and and you know it lasts longer. Yeah. You want the clock to wind down. It's
like hurry up and stop. But yeah. So it could be to do with the, you know, the metabolic process, but it could also have to do with the fact that the 11 hydroxy hangs out in your brain longer because it can't get out. And that is proposed that it's not the same as delta nine in that way. It's just processed more slowly. Exactly. And once it's up there, it's potential that it just it just hangs out up there longer, right, in your brain. And so
it's, yeah, processed more slowly. And and also, you know, it it's a bit of a misnomer to think, like, okay, after four years after four hours, you know, you're you need to re up. So you're thinking about, okay. Well, what effect that you're after? But that THC can actually be stored in your fat cells. Right? And so we have athletes, if they've used a lot of cannabis for a lot of time, even smoking, because it's lipophilic molecule, it can be stored
in your fat. And so if they're cutting weight and they're, they're starting to lose fat, those THC is can actually come out into their bloodstream. And you know, it, it, if it's high enough, you could actually not have smoked or used THC for a really long time. But if you're cutting weight and you have stored THC in your fat, it can come out and start and make it really prolonged time before you'll have a clean test,
like seventy five days. Like, if you're losing weight and and the fat that you've stored has THC in it. So so, yes, the the effects may be four hours, but the THC itself can still be in your body for, like, a really long time. That reminds me of how we used to describe LSD flashbacks. Like, oh, the LSD can hide in your body and someday you're gonna use that fat cell. Right? Yeah. Well, it kind of thing.
And it actually yes. I mean, I don't know if enough would ever come out to be cognitively impairing, so to speak, but it can be enough to pop $20,000 fine or a suspension, you don't want that to happen. Yeah. Because you wanna be very aware of it. Yeah. Because you actually didn't use THC. Like, you're actually not lying. But if you're cutting weight and it's coming out of the fat stores and you're popping a
positive test, both things are true. This athlete did not use cannabis in the last however much time that you're testing him for. But it is also true that it's showing up on his test. Right? So those things both things can be true. Wow. That brings up all all sorts of, DUI questions too that we are not gonna get into today. Yeah. Yeah. So Yeah. Alright. So let let's let's wrap up this set by talking about suppositories, which always, gets giggles when I bring it up in live panels.
But, you know, it's it's one thing let's see. How do I wanna say this? It's one thing to be a cannabis enthusiast. We love using cannabis. It is different when I'm working with a patient when they need cannabinoids to survive. Right? Yeah. Their their relationship with the cannabis is different. And, I have seen and helped patients, like, do everything, you know, and and and and and come to the point of realizing they need to make their own suppositories
Yeah. Which is almost always a very sick person and my heart always goes out to them. So let's talk a little bit about suppositories because I know I've got a lot of these people in our audience. So let's first talk about the anal suppositories And, we're not going to talk so much about making them and things like that. That information is available pretty regularly. But one way or another, you're usually going to use some combination of RSO with coconut oil in some way, maybe some shea butter.
Lots of people would like to put them in the little, little little freezer form things that you put in the freezer and you make it hard. And you just keep it in there and when you gotta use it, you just you know, take your finger and put it down into the rectum. Right? And while that is a extraordinary and odd and sometimes messy process, it's important as far as medicine goes. Right. And so it's from this point that I'd like you to pick up the story, Liz.
Would you just tell us a little bit about how the the cannabinoids, find their way through the rectal wall and then into the system that way? Because, it works. Even with all the jokes, it still works really well. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. It does work. And all you need to do is have somebody that's actually, felt high from that, which can happen. Yeah. So it it definitely works, and we know that it can get in there. And it's no different than any other medication that we
use a rectal suppository for. Right? And so it's getting absorbed in through that passageway, just like any other medication. I think the biggest, the the difference between, you know, the one thing to pay attention to is how deep you're putting it in. Because if it's lower down in the rectum, then you are not you're most likely not gonna go through first pass metabolism. And so that's gonna go directly into your lymphatic circulation, and so it's
gonna start circulating that way. If it's a if it's pushed up a little bit higher, then it's potential that it's gonna go into your liver, and then it's gonna go through that first pass metabolism, and that's gonna look different just like we just said. So it's still gonna do the same metabolic processes, but I think it's absolutely a valid, delivery system.
And that's for a few reasons. If you have somebody that has, like, the patients that we think about that use any kind of suppository, you know, for problems that are kind of from the belt down, but it's also for the amount. Like, if they're trying to dose themselves at a high amount for, you know, cancer patients or some people that, you know, it it's definitely a valid administration route for sure. Because you don't get as high. Oh,
exactly. Yeah. Yes. It's it's totally reduced, but you can still get the amount, a pretty decent amount in, and that's what you're after. Right? You you don't need the high to have the therapeutic outcome, and that's also sometimes confused in the world. It's like, no. You you can have the in fact, most patients don't want to be high. They want the therapeutic value without the high. That's what they're actually after. Well, especially at cancer protocol dosages.
Right? If you're if you're taking two or three hundred milligrams a day, that's gonna drive some people batty. Well, and the other thing is too, is you also have to think there's a population that the cancer population's a perfect example. They're extremely nauseous and they're throwing up all the time. So what goods inedible gonna do them? Nothing. They're gonna throw it all up. Whereas if you can use a suppository, you can
get it into them that way. Or, you know, you can use inhalation, but that's fast on, fast off. Right? So you don't necessarily want that either. You wanna hold the therapeutic dose, and by using suppositories, you can do that.
But the other place that I think suppositories are massively valuable, and I speak about this all the time, is for females and not I'm talking, well, you can still use it, you know, rectally, but vaginal suppositories as well because for premenstrual pain or any kind of pain down in the female reproductive system. And so, I've worked with many athletes, and I've spoken about this a lot. Female athletes are crippled once a month from menstrual cramps, and it
is it is not fair. And I'm so glad that the NCAA changed their regulations for just this reason alone. It it was not fair that they couldn't use cannabinoids for this because they work so well for this. Because if you think of menstrual pain, it is all types of pain. It is inflammatory pain. It is no susceptive pain, and it is neuropathic pain. It is
it is all kinds of pain. And we also know that there are second to the brain, the female and the female reproductive system has the most highest concentration of cannabinoid receptors. So if you're looking for a good target, that's it. And the closer you can get to the place where you're having the problem, you know, by using this suppository,
the better your results are gonna be. And so you can get it, you know, you can use it as a suppository, and there's some now available on the market, you know, different ratios and stuff. But you're able to get it, you know, to where you need it to go. And again, it's it's they're not looking for a high, clearly, but they're looking to actually be a more direct hit to the tissue and the
nerves that are having the problem. And so endometriosis has quite a bit of good data actually on it, using cannabinoid products. Mostly, it's, you know, retrospective analysis and stuff like that. Like, they don't have clinical trials, but there is some pretty good data to show that cannabinoids work very well in that population. And we know in endometriosis that there's a massive upregulation of the TRP
v one channels. And and we know that CBD is a direct agonist at the TRP v one receptors, which is, you know, also the capsaicin receptor. But it agonizes it to the point that it desensitizes it. And that's how it works in in any pain in our body. But we know specific to endometriosis tissue that there's there's a a weird upregulation of these TRP v one receptors. Like, there's
a lot of them. So why wouldn't you try to hit it with something that's gonna desensitize it and reduce your pain on top of the fact it's going to reduce the actual tissue inflammation, and it's gonna reduce any of the nerve triggering? Wow. I'm thinking about that cascade of effects. And, it's interesting how selective it is. Right? Because we we think about the effects that happen medically from ingesting the cannabinoids.
Yeah. But then when when when we're when we're bringing them into the body through the anal or vaginal wall, it has different effects. And so it's like, yeah, you're you're kind of getting a selected subset of what cannabis can do, and it makes it kind of like a a a a a a specialist for special patients. Yeah. For sure. Because when you look at what what receptors are up regulating there, they are very receptive to
cannabinoid molecules. Like, the TRP v one is a target for any pain, but, you know, if you know that endometrial tissue has a high, high concentration of TRPV one receptors, of course, you should be trying to hit it. This is also the best, evidence I've heard for location targeting for your cannabis. Right? I mean, we're all familiar with, like, oh, you've got a sore shoulder. You know, use a THC topical with a carrier that can get through the dermis and put it on your shoulder directly. That's
great. But this, using anal or vaginal suppositories, you can location or proximity target for anything that's going on in the whole hip area, you know, from the from the belt to the knees. Yeah. Yeah. And and the other thing too, just because we're talking about pain and, like, you know, rubbing something on your shoulder. But Sure. When you think about pain, and this, again, is a discussion that would be far beyond the amount of time that we have.
But like, you know, the question is always okay, well, where is the pain actually coming from? Is it coming from the location in the tissue where there's actual inflammation? Or is it coming from your brain that's processing that signal? And that is how we can get in there with cannabinoids because we can intercept the signal.
And so, you know, you have an ascending pathway that sent when you have an injury of any kind, whether it's menstrual or just any kind of pain, you know, your sensory neurons again, now we're in the autonomic nervous system. Again, your sensory neurons are patrolling whatever. It's telling your brain, like, yeah, we got a problem. Something hurts. So it's sending up and your brain is interpreting that. With cannabinoids, we know, and then there's a descending pathway that comes down, and
it inhibits that pain signal. Right? Okay. So if that descending inhibitory pathway does not happen correctly, then you're not inhibiting the pain signals. We know that the periaqueductal gray in your brain is pretty dense with cannabinoid receptors. And if we hit them and we activate that, then we know that we can increase the inhibitory path like, the descending inhibitory pain pathway, so to turn off the pain. Right? Like, shut it down type of thing.
So we also know that by hitting that CB one receptor with the ascending pathway, the afferent pathways that are going up to your brain to tell your brain something hurts, we can also intercept those with cannabinoid molecules. So because pain is a sensation. There there it isn't a thing. It's an interpretation of this signal, and it's a emotional response. And so I actually did a presentation on how we could use cannabinoids for, again, menstrual pain, but pain is also an emotional
response. Right? It it's and we know the autonomic nervous system and the endocannabinoid system are bidirectional. So, you know, when your autonomic nervous system's freaking out, well, your endocannabinoid system's freaking out too. Right? Like, they go they go together. That also explains why CBG is so effective as a pain reliever. Not only because it can help with the neuropathic pain Yeah. But also specifically, it it encourages the patient to feel like
they can handle the pain. Right? Exactly. It it handles how they interpret the signal, which is which is a huge thing. You know? Yeah. If you're gonna have the if you're gonna be in furious pain all day one way or another, you you might as well be positive about it. And CBG really helps
that. Yep. And and the patients will usually say, like, it's and that's also too, like, you know, one of the indications that's most accepted for cannabinoid medication is neuropathic pain because of because where those cannabinoid receptors are on the nerve, right, we know that's a different type of pain than nociceptive pain, which is a pain of tissue. Like, when you put your hand on the stove and you pull
it off. Right? Different thing. But, yeah, I mean, it's it's when you talk to patients that are using it for pain, they will say, my pain is not gone. It's just it's background noise. It's still there, but I can still function. And it's because you're you are intercepting the part where those pain messages were screaming at them, and it was all they heard all day long. You can turn off the pain signals. Yes. The pain is still there, but you know what? It's in the background.
I can still get on with my day and do my thing. So it's not taking the pain away. It's making the pain background noise, you know? But and and chronic pain is different than acute pain. Right? And we know that the brain changes when, when you have chronic pain, there are different areas of your brain that actually move from a state of, like, acute pain. It's doing some certain things. And once that turns into a chronic pain, the brain profile is different. And so
we know that there's actually a shift. And so with chronic pain, that is one of the best indications that we get the best results from in pain patients is people that have chronic pain. And it's because of how we can intercept that signaling. Right? Your body is one humongous signaling molecule. Well, a million signaling molecules. What is just one big signaling thing? One big collection, one big basket of signaling molecules. Signals. Yeah.
Days when I get all kind of like, you know, flitterpated, you know, I'm I'm feeling I'm feeling overwhelmed. I'm just all like too many signals are activated. Yeah. Maybe I will go sit down. So, yeah. Exactly. So Liz, thank you so much for joining us today on Shaping Fire. This was exactly the kind of talk that I was looking for. Your your ability I mean, your depth is obvious, but also your ability to put things in layman's terms so we can bring everybody along with us is
really phenomenal. And so thank you for sharing your experience and your expertise with us so we could really dig into what happens in our body in the first five minutes after we toke. Yep. For sure. I'm so happy to be here, and I I am honored to be on your show because I listen to it a lot, so I don't really feel like I'm even qualified to sit in this chair, but I am so happy that I was invited on, and it was a pleasure. Well, congratulations on that PhD. We know you're qualified.
And, and I'll look forward to having you again, on the show down the line when you have some, new research to discuss. So thank you. Yeah. Absolutely. Anytime. Alright, my dear listeners. So if you are interested in knowing more about doctor Elizabeth Thompson, you can follow along with her work. The best place to do that is probably on Instagram, and that Instagram profile is train with dot Mary Jane. Train with
dot Mary Jane. And you can keep up with all of doctor Thompson's, research and her speaking engagements and where she'll be online and webinars and all that good stuff. And then, if you also wanna keep up with the research long term, you can do so at trainwithmaryjane.com, which is where she publishes her research. You can also follow her on LinkedIn, but, but Liz was pretty clear that she is, you know, she's a researcher's researcher and that's
where she is most of the time. And she doesn't have a lot of time to get back with people. So, so it might you'll probably do better to follow along and passively receive information on IG versus, you know, trying to ping her with a bunch of letters. But, you know, if you've got if you've got an idea to work together or opportunities, by all means, reach out to her at @trainwith.MaryJane.
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Shaping Fire. I've been your host, Shango Los.