EP113 Wood Loving Psilocybin Mushrooms

- We humans have been enjoying psychedelic mushrooms for so long that it may have even been before. We are homo sapiens, and even though most of us get our mushrooms from our weed dealer, they really are nature and occur outside and grow nearby in the forest for free. You just have to be really clear in your identification so you don't end up dying. We may be taking mushrooms to talk to God, but that doesn't mean we wanna see God in person after accidentally eating a truly poisonous mushroom.

Today's episode is about a special group of psilocybin mushrooms who love growing on hardwood, and how you can wildcraft them and also grow a patch in your yard or your neighbor's yard, or your local park. If you wanna learn about cannabis health cultivation and technique efficiently and with good cheer, I encourage you to subscribe to our newsletter.

We'll send you new podcast episodes as they come out, delivered right to your inbox, along with commentary on a couple of the most important news items from the week and videos too. Don't rely on social media to let you know when a new episode is published. Sign up for the updates to make sure you don't miss an episode. You are listening to Shaping Fire. And I am your host, Shang Los. Welcome to episode 113. My guest today is Christian Kalin.

Christian is primarily self-talk, but he has been very successful teaching himself. In the early two thousands, Christian worked for Paul Stamets at Fungi Perfecti, managing the farm team, performing mass sterilization and inoculation. While there, he created the first SOPs for medicinal mushroom powder and tincture manufacturing. Since that time, he has worked on a series of consulting and manufacturing projects covered by NDAs for himself and others.

He is presently adjunct faculty at Basier University, where he develops and teaches ology courses for graduate students. Christian also is founder and owner of Provisions Mushroom Farm in Olympia. Washington Provisions is the first CSA supported agriculture mushroom farm in the United States. He sells over a thousand pounds of culinary mushrooms per week through local farmer's markets, grocery stores, and restaurants.

He also produces tinctures and various mycelium and mushroom products for wholesale and retail. Finally, Christian maintains a coveted in-House Master tissue cultural library for food and medicinal production. His company is so respected that his internship opportunities are accredited by the Evergreen State College. During the first set today, we will learn about the wood loving mushrooms, who they are and how they function.

In the second set, we will discuss wildcrafting wood lovers, their ecology and responsible harvesting. And during the third set, we go step-by-step through creating and sustaining a wood loving psilocybin mushroom plot at home. Welcome to Shaping Fire Christian. It's great to be here. Thank you. Excellent. So let's get right into it. So, you know, for folks whose familiarity with mushrooms stops at, um, like are they hallucinogenic or not?

Le let's create a little bit of context to bring everybody on the same page. You know, people talk about these mushrooms as, as psilocybin mushrooms kind of generally, but the genus is philosophy. And so let's start with that context. Would you give us a quick summary of the philosophy genus of fungi and, and maybe a little bit of their characteristics? - Yeah, definitely. I like to kind of categorize the different species in the philosophy genus in three different categories.

Basically wood lovers that we wanna talk about today. Uh, copper tropic or copper fillic, mushrooms that like manure, feces and also grass loving varieties. And some can be intermixed like the, they're all basically saper trs that like, uh, dead or decaying materials, substrates, but some will also integrate in manure and grass and some just in wood. So I, I think, um, those are distinguishing factors that are, uh, kind

of delineate all the philosophy. Mushrooms - Is, is the fact that they have psilocybin a key attribute of them? I would think that since philosophy is the name, you know, is in the name of the genus, that would be true, but I don't know that to be true. - Yeah, they, they vary in potency, but generally all philosophy mushrooms have psilocybin. - Okay. So you've given us like these three general baskets in philosophy, the, the wood lovers, the manure lovers, and the grass lovers.

So, so we're gonna focus on the wood lovers today. So I think our next step would be to identify that next smaller basket. If, if, if those three are all part of the philosophy genus, what would you say are the attributes specifically of the wood lovers? - They all have very similar phenotypes. Uh, there's different varying potencies.

The more research that we do on analyzing the constituents, the psychoactive properties in these species, we'll find that they each have differing compounds, uh, differing potencies. But generally the wood lovers all have very similar characteristics. Stem, uh, morphology and their, their caps all have kind of a similar resemblance to spores. So they, they all are distinguished. That's why they're in that distinguishable category, basically, because they're so similar.

- It sounds like not only are there morphological similarities between them, meaning they look the same, but the more science we're able to do on them, we're probably also going to find a lot of similarities in the chemistry of them as that, as that research gets done. I'm guessing - Definitely that, you know, their, their caps may vary. You know, some are more rounded, some are pointed on top, some are a little more brown, some are more caramel caps, some are even white.

So there are some very macroscopic big differences within the wood lovers, but they are very, you know, similar, they, the, we we're discovering a lot still today. And so, you know, out of around 2, 250, 300 different species in the philosophy genus, you know, I think we're dealing with close to a dozen or so in the wood lovers that we know of. So there's still a lot to learn.

- And that's exactly where I'm going next, you know, is this, how many of these, you know, how many of the wood lovers exist? I, I, I know I, I mean, Lisa, I don't think that's a scientific definition. I think that's more like a, uh, um, a convenience definition.

But when I was doing my homework for the program, um, some people were suggesting like, oh, there are, you know, there, there are only really three main wood lovers, and then there's a couple rare ones, and then somebody else like, oh, there's really five major wood lovers, and then there's the rest of them.

But you know, I, you know, in my research I came up with like 11, and so I don't know whether or not, you know, there are 11 or like a hundred, and I only found 11, but, but you're, you're suggesting that there's really 12 that really like fit the definition, eh? - Yeah, I am, you know, taxonomy isn't my strong suit. Mm-Hmm. , so I'll just put that out there right off the bat. I, I'm specialized in cultivation, so, um, I leave a lot of these bigger taxonomy questions to the taxonomist out there.

But yes, the on average, you know, we're finding more and more every year. And so that number is changing. And as well as the taxonomy work that's being done, we're finding that those scientific names are changing too. So what we thought was philosophy Behem is now being correlated to cica, and so the names change as well as the discoveries. - And that really is an confusing thing in science too, you know?

Um, uh, I have a long history of keeping, uh, freshwater fish aquariums, and it was always weird when we'd, I'd go to like, you know, the, the, the Seattle Aquarium Club meetings and they'd announced that, you know, some fish had changed from one name to another, and we're all like, what the hell, man. Yeah. And, and I can imagine that, that, you know, that happens in every branch of science.

I actually have got behe in my notes and also cervical in my notes and didn't realize that they were the same thing. I have a feeling that's probably gonna happen for a while. - Yeah. Just ever increasing more people out there hunting, looking for new species. There's more collaboration online on all the different websites that are documenting the data, so it's really exciting.

- So, so if we're, you know, we're not gonna necessarily go into every one of the, the 12 wood lovers, uh, specifically, but just for like name recognition, um, would you just tell us the names of some of the real cornerstone wood lovers that, that people tend to have access to and like? - Yeah, there's, you know, starting from the top, some of the most potent mushrooms are the wood lovers philosophy.

Azure essence in the Pacific Northwest, known as one of the most potent, also in the Southern hemisphere in New Zealand, Australia, you have philosophy sub, which is also, they say probably equally as potent as the Azure essence, just on a different part of the world.

So it, it all comes down to, like we talked about before, the analysis of, um, the compounds are gonna come out more and more of, of what variety is gonna be more potent over time as we include all the different precursors to psilocybin. Um, you know, like we talked about, bohemus is kind of next the cica the, uh, senescence also here in the Pacific Northwest.

The thing about wood lovers is now that we have more interest around the world, both in cultivation and in identification, that these, these mushrooms are being distributed worldwide, and so their habitats are changing. Mm-Hmm. , what used to be found just in the Pacific Northwest is now found in Central Park, in downtown New York City because people have taken samples of the culture or the spores and transferred them as they travel, or maybe mistakenly or directly, um, consciously.

So we're starting to see all these different varieties be distributed all over the world. So, um, yeah, uh, I think, like I would say to name a few others, uh, the spring philosophy known as Ovoid, or the OID ada found in Ohio, Pennsylvania area was recently discovered. Uh, well, it was discovered a while back, but the taxonomy work was just recently done.

And, uh, the Alinea also was something that was discovered by John Allen back in the eighties, and then kind of got back into circulation around 2004, 2005. And now Alan Rockefeller and his crew have done the taxonomy work on that and renamed it Tobi Alinea to kind of celebrate John Allen's work over the years. That's - Cool.

That's cool. You know, the, with, with many species, one of the things that controls their geographic location is the fact that they work in any particular bio region, but the wood lovers, the thing that they have in common is, um, the habitat. And I would think that, um, any ti anywhere that you're gonna find one of these species, um, bringing in another wood lover species is likely to catch on there as well, because what the, the habitat they need is so similar.

Is that a, is that a realistic assumption I'm making? - Definitely. I've seen multiple species in one location. So there's, they, they love the same habitat for the most part. Some might like grassier areas, you know, the Azure essence is typically found on the coast near wood and s grass. So there's different kind of symbiotic, or not symbiotic, but just synergistic kind of symbiosis of, uh, growing mediums.

And so as long as you have wood, though, generally these varieties are going to thrive right - On to, to anthropomorphize it. They, um, they, they, they, they may all be scientifically love wood lovers, but they do have their own personalities, . - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely. Right on both, both, both in, in, you know, what you get internally as well as macroscopically

or microscopically. Yeah. - So let, for, for most people, the reason why these wood levers matter and come up on their, on their radar is because they have psilocybin in them, and they are, um, you know, they're hallucinogenic. And so whether or not somebody is looking to have a, you know, a hallucinogenic experience or whether or not they're looking to microdose, it's that attribute that they are most interested in.

And for me, you know, I have come across, you know, all the other philosophy genus, mushrooms way more than I have come across the wood lovers in my own life, which is, you know, very variable. Like for example, where I live on Vashon Island, if, if, if you were one of the kids who grow, grew up here on vash, on the mushroom that you've been most in contact with is senescence because they grow abundantly here on the island.

But like, I didn't live somewhere where I knew, you know, that there were naturally occurring mushrooms. So, so the mushrooms that that I came across were all, uh, cultivated indoors. And so where I'm going with this is that, um, I'm curious to know, you know, when you compare them, do the wood levers produce psilocybin in, in comparison to the amounts of psilocybin that we find in other philosophy cultivated varieties like, you know, golden teacher and penis envy?

Like, like can they compete with these very popular, uh, mushrooms on potency? - Oh, yeah. They're more than likely more potent, uh, depending on the, the species of the wood lovers. Mm. Azure essence sub is up to 1% more potent. Uh, when, you know, you're looking at, uh, super active species is going to have about 1%, uh, psilocybin content in, uh, dried form. So if, um, you have almost a 1% degree increase in psilocybin content from that initial potency of 1%, that's a, a significant amount.

The thing that changes the experience internally is all the precursors to psilocybin. So what's actually happening is, uh, soin is being phospho related in our body and, um, created into psilocybin. So this is, um, it depends. So es a lot of times have equal parts psilocybin and equal parts osi.

So this is why you're getting kind of an extreme experience in ES a lot of times, which is different than some of the more potent wood lovers, because you have more psilocybin than OSI in some of these wood lovers. So as we learn more and have more research in dialing in, what, what's happening with these precursors in our experience, uh, beo cysteine, neurobio cysteine are basically identical twins to serotonin. And these are all acting on our, the same serotonin receptor.

We, we will find the, you know, the potencies are different as we of course, um, take them person to person, but also mushroom to mushroom and species to species, depending on those different precursors and constituents.

- Right On. If I understand you correctly, what I think you're, what you're saying is that, um, you know, even though some of the wood lovers are more potent in psilocybin, QEs have the experience of being more potent for some people because the wood lovers are very psilocybin rich, and psilocybin is a, what do they call it?

A, a, a, a pro drug, which means that it's, it's a drug that we take in our body, and then our body turns it into something that is actually the hallucinogen, in this case, oc, right? So, so psilocybin is in the mushroom and it's the pro drug, and then, and then we eat it, and our body turns it into oc, which is really what gives the experience.

And so ensis, instead of it being, you know, 80 20 psilocybin de soin, for example, it's more like 50 50, so that when you take a ensis, you are having the experience more intensely and faster because it's already got OSI on board ready to give you an experience. - Exactly. I think I said that backwards, uh, initially I said, uh, OSI turns into psilocybin, but I, I meant, like you were saying, psilocybin being DFOs related into psilocin. Right - On.

Yeah. Um, honestly, it's very helpful for me to hear the word soin, uh, stated by an actual mycologist too, because so many of us, we, we learn from books, right? And so, um, uh, you know, whe I've discussed this before on this show, whether or not it was, uh, psin or soin or whatever, but I wasn't talking with Mycologist and we're like, I don't know, and we're not the right people to ask, - You know, when it comes to the Latin versions, I, no, no one's really an expert on pronunciation.

It, it kind of just goes with , what it, whatever feels comfortable these days, soin or Sloan or, you know, however we say our tomato or tomato kind of thing. Right - On. Very good . Yes. So, um, so if, if, if we call wood lovers, wood lovers, um, are mushrooms that are not wood lovers, would we just call those like regular, or would we call them manure lovers or grass lovers? It's just a simple way of how to talk about this casually.

Is it like wood lovers and like regular mushrooms, or, or is wood lovers, so not actually scientific that, that it wouldn't actually be used in a conversation anyway. - I've kind of seen it as wood lovers are categorized as that, and everything else is kind of in its own category. You know, we talked about being copper trophic or copper fillic, the, that's kind of a technical term for manure lovers.

So, you know, you could say that those es in particular are copper trophic, but, but, um, I, I have never really diff differentiated it like regular mushrooms or wood lovers. Um, they, they kind of just are what they are. And I think as we progress into research and, and knowing more about these different species, that maybe different names will come about. Right - On.

So, um, I wanna, I wanna save, um, more, most of our time from this first set for the second and third set, which are gonna be much longer due to the nature of the questions. But the, the last thing I wanna ask you before we go to our first commercial break, and I, and I wanna readily admit that we may not have a good answer for this. So if, so, if that's true Mm-Hmm, , feel, feel free to say it. But, you know, like I want to talk about like the secondary, uh, alkaloids in wood lovers.

Um, you know, there's a lot of excitement about, um, about, uh, the, the rest of the philosophy genus in that, uh, you know, they, they've got the, these aromatics and terpenes that we know are so important in cannabis, and we're just now beginning to study them in, in mushrooms. And then also there's all these like secondary alkaloids that are, are rich and we can, we can test for them in labs, but we don't really know what they do.

And so my my question for you is, um, are, is that same, does that same excitement apply to wood lovers as well, that they've got this same, uh, aromatic and secondary, you know, biochemical, um, story to tell where they too are, are going to be receiving a lot of aromatic research to find out what on earth they're doing other than just delivering us, uh, psilocybin? - I agree. I think all mushrooms are in this category.

You know, even if they're culinary mushrooms or the functional mushrooms as they call 'em today, lion's mane, uh, shiitakes and others very aromatic terpene rich. I think too, the, uh, the amino acids, um, deriving from Trytophan, uh, for these tryptamine alkaloids are extremely exciting. There's all kinds of new research that's happening.

This is research that was done clear back in the sixties by a friend of mine, Albert Lung Long, um, discovered Beton with another colleague and, uh, a Paul, I believe his name is. And the research stopped. You know, it, we, we could have been so far along 40 years later, practically, you know, 46, 50, almost 50 years. Uh, it's really sad.

But now we're here and I'm hopeful that yeah, we we're gonna find more, uh, research, uh, we're gonna find more data that's telling us, you know, exactly what all these different amino acids are doing, maybe why they're there, what the function is of it, and how can we use this in mental health and other things for our physiological wellbeing. Wellbeing as well as like getting to know ourselves and, um, and understanding who we really are and what we're doing on this planet.

- Right on. So, alright, so let's go ahead and, and take our first commercial break. So, so our first set was all about like, you know, uh, getting to know what we're talking about today in the wood lovers. But during the second set, we're gonna be starting to talk about, um, uh, wildcraft cultivation. And in the third set we're talking about, uh, at home cultivation. So, so we're gonna go ahead and take this short break and we're gonna be right back.

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I am your host Shang Los, and my guest today is my college Christian Kalin. So before the break we were talking about wood lovers, who they are, what they are, and where we tend to find them in literature, but now we're gonna talk about where we tend to find them in the wild. So we're gonna talk more about wildcrafting here. So, you know, Christian, I've, I personally have only ever heard of wood lovers being grown outside.

Whenever I hear about wood lovers, uh, people are talking about either wild crafting them, literally, you know, walking in the forest and looking for them or doing a version of, I don't know, wild cultivation where people are, you know, intentionally inoculating their yard. So, so, you know, they're outside, they're not inside, but maybe they're one step less wild because they're, you know, because they're intentionally inoculated or not.

But, um, they always seem to be more, you know, these wood lovers always seem to be more of a wild type mushroom versus the ones growing indoors. Is there any like scientific reality to that or is that just me and how I've come to know wood lovers? - No, you're right. They, they are generally found outdoors. There is, however, a lot of experimentation that's been going on over the last decade or so, even maybe longer, with trying to grow some of these varieties indoor with decent success.

It takes longer. You're, you have to go through like a multi-seasonal kind of situation. So, uh, but for the most part, yes, you're right, uh, found outside, uh, in the wild or in landscape habitats as well as people intentionally making patches outside. Right - On. So, so this habitat that generally happens outdoors because it's, it, it it is, it needs to have seasons and it needs to have a big span of time.

What are these habitats that are most conducive to the gross to the growth of wild wood loving psilocybin mushrooms, - Hardwoods, deciduous trees, the, those, uh, substrates are generally any kind of wood substrate leaves that fall off trees and create more substrate. These are are places where you'll find, um, the Azure essence actually, like we talked about before, found on the beaches out on the coast, connected to wood drift that's in the sand more than likely on top of such grassroots.

So yeah, but technically the, the habitats are generally very similar grassy woody, and you wanna stay away from the conifer evergreen wood that is too acidic. They, they, they don't do well. They're, you could combine if you didn't have enough wood. Sometimes you can get away with combining a little bit of hardwood with some conifer chips to make patches work. I generally just found around the deciduous trees.

- Yeah, I have definitely not found any success using, you know, pine chips before, you know, when I was a younger man and I did not realize the importance of the hardwood, I would get frustrated. I'm like, why, why isn't there these, this, you know, pine tree working and it's like, yeah, wrong, wrong game Shang, go . Yeah. Um, so, so, alright.

So it sounds like, you know, we're looking for edges of things like kind of like where, where the, the coastal grasses meet the coastal sand with wood and, and where the forest with the forest duff meets the grass. And it, it sounds like a lot of these are, are, are found in areas where there's a transition and so there are different varieties of nutrition and habitat involved. Yeah, - Definitely. They're secondary metabolizers too, so they're used to being kind of second on the scene.

They, they love to be the first on the scene if you're intentionally trying to make patches and they'll do even better that way. But where you find them is taking the last bits of the, of the substrate and digesting it and then producing fungus or mushrooms from that. - So when you say not the first one on the scene, um, you're talking about that there are other mushroom varieties that are the first one on the scene, right?

- Yeah. Either microrisal that are in the roots of the trees and plants or other TROs that are competing for the top layer of lignin and cellulose. - Right on. I I've always liked the idea of mushrooms that there's so many varieties that really excel when they're playing well with others, you know? - Yeah. I think you can have some symbiotic relationships there that are synergistic and then you can have others that are definitely out competing each other. Mm-Hmm.

- . So let's talk about, uh, the climate and seasonal, um, effects because, you know, that's one of the reasons why indoor cultivation of wood lovers is so challenging and why people work so meticulously to try to, um, you know, make a synthetic environment that replicates these seasons indoors. So, so, you know, what is their, what what is the mushrooms lifecycle, uh, generally and when do they fruit and, and what kind of environmental conditions do they like?

Other than just purely the location that we've already discussed? - They, yeah, they can be very finicky, uh, when you're trying to cultivate them. Mushrooms in general, a lot of times I've noticed when people stress out trying to grow them, they want 'em to grow so bad. Sometimes I feel like this is too much of a stressful environment on the organism. It sounds crazy, but yeah. Uh, um, just letting, like trying to see what happens in nature and mimicking that same thing.

Basically just setting up, you know, knowing what the species is. So basically breaking it back down into three different categories. You need a, a good culture, something that you've either found in the wild, you can do stem butt transfers. Uh, you take the, the roots off the bottom of the stem, put it into wet cardboard or other substrates and let that culture kind of grow through and, um, transplant that into other new substrates.

Um, you know, there's, uh, places out there where you can start with spores. You know, spores generally are legal, so you can, if you know what you're doing, um, you can, you know, start from spore and then have that broadcast out into a patch. But generally, um, most of these wood lovers fruit in the fall. So you want to time it either six months to a year before that harvest date. - So before we go too far into the cultivation, 'cause all of third set is gonna be about cultivation.

Okay. I wanna, I want to, I want to, uh, narrow our scope a little bit specifically about the seasons and, um, you know, we have, we have mentioned, you know, that there's a whole bunch in the Pacific Northwest, right? Which, which tells me they like moisture a lot, right? And then there, then there are varieties like the ovoids, which are coastal east coast, right? Which also tells me that they really like wet.

Um, but then you were talking about, um, some variety earlier in the show where they're actually in the Midwest. And so, um, uh, what is going on climate wise in all three of these places, which, which, um, you know, creates this great environment for wood lovers. - The, the wood lovers love a cold snap, a winter kind of situation with, like you're saying, a humid, nice, wet environment.

So if you don't have this cold snap seasonally, this can change your harvest year to year in your wild, uh, you know, your wild harvesting foraging. Or also when you're intentionally trying to make patches, um, that timing of how your mycelium is digesting your patch, how much food source you know, you've given it. There's a lot that goes into the timing of both your mycelium growing in the substrate and the seasonality of your season.

It's, it's not always certain that you're going to get mushrooms, you're playing outside, is playing with nature. You're playing with nature both in the culture and in your temperature and humidity outside. So basically setting up a patch, like we'll probably talk about here in a little bit, will, um, the, the location, your culture and the substrate are the three main issues with setting up, uh, a, uh, - A - Patch a a patch that is, um, going to be successful.

- Do we know why the cold snap is so relevant to the fungus? I mean, I'm, there's, I'm guessing that there's some mechanism internal to the mushroom that without the cold snap, it doesn't have the gumption to, um, fruit as much, um, when it's time. - Yeah, there's a lot of, even culinary mushrooms are similar. Shiitakes rely on a cold kind of, uh, primordial stage where the mycelium needs to get almost shocked.

Uh, it needs to come out of its normal character, and then that stresses the mycelium out to induce fruiting. So these are, and this can be oxygen related, CO2 related, temperature related or humidity related. So a lot goes into it - Similarly, you know, there, there these mushrooms like the moisture, but then there's a certain point when there's so much rain that, um, that the mushrooms are done for the season.

Right. So do we have any understanding of, of why the mushrooms like, you know, X amount of moisture versus x plus moisture? Uh, like do we understand it all what the biology is where the, the, the mushroom finally says, all right, there's just too much rain, we're done. - You know, it's a lot of times temperature instead of moisture that terminates the end of the season.

I've found the yes, if you have kind of, if you have an intentional patch outside that isn't deep in like, you know, a foot or more of substrate, then you're more susceptible to either drying out with lack of water or being too swamped with too much water. But the wild varieties are just in nature. They're, they're more permeable to these fluctuations. And as long as it doesn't freeze, freeze, like a heart freeze generally is what terminates the season.

- You know? That makes a lot of sense to me. I, I actually saw the biggest, um, sene essence patch I have ever personally seen, um, this year. And I was really surprised to find it in, um, in January, right? Because that's awfully late here for the Pacific Northwest for Senes essence. And my friend called me over and said, here, you gotta come over and check this out. And, and it ended up being this, like, this very large outcropping, maybe like 10 feet by eight feet.

And it was just like, just like, you know, I probably shouldn't say thousands, but like a whole bunch were, were there like the most I've ever seen. And, and I said, what, you know, I was, you know, as a, as a citizen scientist, I'm like, what, what, what, what's different here? Right? Um, yeah. And, and, and then my friend told me, oh, you know, I had this tarp on here and, uh, uh, uh, uh, over all these wood chips to keep the wood dry. And then they pulled off the tarp and there it was.

And so nice. The tarp was providing this extension of warmth, and then the ground was all soaked with water, but the, the mushroom fruiting bodies were not soaked, which can, you know, often lead to rotting. And so, uh, it was amazing how a tarp unintentionally put on a woodchip pile, actually created this perfect environment for the extension of their fruiting phase, which, which was just exceptional to see. - Yeah. That, or cardboard, some people layer with straw.

Anything to kind give a little bit of a insulative barrier to the extreme temperatures or fluctuations in moisture will help a lot. If you don't have a treat area that is a natural canopy to kind of protect your patch from the sunlight in the summertime or the rains in the wintertime, then tarping or cardboard can greatly increase the success of your patch. - So, you know, the, these, these mushrooms, you know, we call 'em wood lovers, right? But, but do we know why they like wood?

Is there some, I mean, clearly there is some attribute in wood that, for example, a appears in hardwoods that doesn't appear in soft softwoods that they, that, that these mushrooms, um, you know, appreciate. Do we know what this attribute is, which creates this like symbiosis between, um, these philosophy mushrooms and um, and hardwood trees?

- You know, I've noticed hardwoods seem to be a little, um, conduced, you know, they, you see a lot of different organisms growing on hardwoods compared to conifers. Look at all the lichens, you know, I was just noticing the other day how many lichen you see all over deciduous trees in the northwest compared to conifers. Um, I, like I was saying, I think there's some kind of a pH acid kind of thing happening.

Maybe there's more to it with the, the resins and the different protective layers that conifer trees have, uh, compared to the deciduous trees. But that's a great question. I, I'm uncertain. Right - On. So there's another aspect of it, um, where people so often find, um, you know, these mushrooms and others, including for where I live, morels, um, when, when humans get involved with nature, right?

Like, like my first time ever having a mushroom outcropping on my own property, fruiting bodies was when we got a whole bunch of wood chips for our garden. And, and then in, in the spring it was like, boom, all these morels. And I, you know, I felt like, like wealthy and abundant, you know, being able to have a, a five gallon bucket full of, full of more morales. I'm all like, man, this is great. Um, but I, I think that is also one of the attributes of wood lovers, isn't it?

Where, where if, if, if humans are, are messing with the wood that, that the wood lovers are in a symbiotic relationship with it, they're more likely to fruit. - Yeah. Like we're, I definitely, there's this crazy thing with senescence where, you know, in the wild, there's some kind of spore load in the alder trees, but you'll never find senescence in an alder grove.

It, it takes humans interaction, taking the alder, chopping it down, chipping it, taking those chips, using it in landscape, and then there's this spore load is what a lot of us think that is in the bark or in a dead area of the bark. And then as we chip, we're spreading these spores, and then the mycelium starts. And this is how we're finding these senescence in landscaping.

- So like, I know I'm about to ask you to make a, you know, like a little conjecture here, and I'm, I'm comfortable with that. Like, you've got a deep science background, but I'm asking for a little bit opinion here. Like, like what do you think this tells us about the ecological role of wood lovers? Like, it, it, what you describe them, it, it, it sounds like a job they're doing, right?

It's like, it's like, it's like, it was like, oh, you know, wood lovers have got a job to do in nature when, when trees are damaged or something. Like, like you have a lot of experience with these, these particular types of mushrooms. What is it vibe like to you? - I, I have a strong feeling that the genus philosophy, we have this relationship, it's this, it's, it predates our relationship with the bovine with the cows. You know, that's the longest relationship we've had with any other organism.

And there's something there that we still are missing. I, you know, I'm uncertain. I am excited by these wonders and mysteries and, you know, just understanding all the different species on the earth is a multi-generational task on top of the constituents and all the different cool things about each of those mushrooms and what we're gonna find. It's just, it's amazing to me. Yeah.

- One of the things that I find interesting about, um, studying wood lovers is, um, you really need to have patience, um, in a way that like kind of old school science ISTs used to have patience because since, um, wood lovers have not very successfully been brought into indoor cultivation, you actually ha, you know, you have to set up your experiment, whatever it might be, and then you have to let the whole season go through and then you see what the mushrooms do.

It reminds me a lot of how, um, I mean, we still do, but how people primarily used to breed cannabis, right? Where, um, you know, you were, you were doing your cannabis through your full cycle and, and then when you got your new seeds, then you, you know, would do that again the following year outdoors, right? And so you were really only doing, um, you know, one, one experiment or one breeding project a summer because you, you were doing this in cooperation with, with cycles.

And then eventually lighting, um, got improved and we brought, we brought the, the cannabis plants indoors. And so we started being able to do, you know, three or four cycles in a year instead of just one.

And then now we're breeding with, you know, spreadsheets and laboratory, and I'm not talking about genetic modified particularly just, just like, you know, analytically supported cannabis where, where you can, you know, and you can take these plants and, and and, uh, breed them a lot faster, taking that example and cross applying it to mushrooms.

It's interesting because so many mushrooms can be, can be isolated and bred so quickly in a home lab, but the, the, the wood lovers are going like, no, we're, we're gonna do this outside our way only. And, um, uh, you know, I'm sure that frustrates a lot of wood loving scientists. Um, but I, I find that interesting stubborn nature of the wood lovers to be like, kind of a charming trait. - Yeah, definitely. I, I like that analogy with cannabis.

It was, you took me to the dark ages there for a second, . That was the, but you're right, you're right. As interest and ambition kind of pushes technology, uh, I think for sure the wood lovers are saprotrophic. So they, we know that, you know, we can grow them, we can cultivate them, but they're like the op opportunistic morale, like you were saying, that it takes just the right combination of different seasonality and substrates to make that all happen.

And I'm sure as people experiment with different things, just like cords, you know, we weren't cultivating cords, uh, not too long ago. And as people experiment with all the different things that we kind of break these little codes of cultivation, which is fun and exciting. - So in the wild, which is, you know, my main interest with these, um, wood lovers since, um, since, you know, it's fun to find them. They're free when you find them out there.

And, uh, and uh, it always feels like I'm getting away with something when I find something out in nature that we typically pay for, right? Like I, it doesn't matter if it's a culinary mushroom or, or, you know, bringing in nettle outside to make ravioli or something. Right. I totally feel like I'm getting like something from nature for free, which is pretty dope. Um, are there any companion plants or other fungi that we will often find with the wood loving psilocybin mushrooms?

Other than, um, you know, just generally hardwood trees? - Yeah, I, you know, just the grasses and some of the vegetation helps because it opens up the airways and the substrate, you know, so if you have some plant life that have root systems that can help in that, I think those can help. Um, yeah, - But it's not, but it isn't as kind of, it's not, it sounds like it's not as specific as like, oh, this variety of grass is necessary for the fruiting cycle of the mushroom.

Like we find that in other types of species, but there really isn't any kind of companion plant that's, that's necessary to those cycle. I'm, I'm hearing. - Yeah, not necessarily. I mean, I've, I've had Azure essence grow in normal grass, not sedge grass, you know, so they, I don't think they're particular to sedge grass. They just were opportunistic with what was there in their habitat. Mm-Hmm. .

- So we certainly won't be able to teach identification of wood lovers on this, you know, in an audio only program today. Right. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. Um, so for, for folks who are very interested in, in the wood, uh, for the, excuse me, the wild crafting, um, you know, just for the joy of mushroom hunting and perhaps for the actual taking of, of the natural bounty, um, uh, what are the, the signs that we would look for to know when a, a wild wood lover is, is ready to be harvested?

Um, is it, is it as soon as you can identify it or is there a certain point where like if you come across a patch and you identify it as, for example, sin essence, where you're like, like, that's what these are, but I need to come back in like five days? - Yeah, I think, you know, it's, it's, for the newcomer, it's easy to just harvest everything you see 'cause you're excited.

But if you, you know, if you're in a place where you're safe and you wanna check it out and learn more, I, I would recommend kind of letting things grow out. You know, your last question, you said, uh, kind of a companion kind of thing happening. I noticed that there are a lot of gallerinas, the deadly gallerinas that pop up pretty close to a lot of the wood lovers here in the Pacific Northwest.

So you, you do want to pay particular attention to the patch might not be all one species of mushroom. So there are easy ways macroscopically to identify these mushrooms so that you can be safe. And if nothing else, take a spore print where you take the stem off the bottom of the cap and lay your cap skill side down on a piece of paper overnight and see, analyze what the color of the spores are the next day as a telltale sign, whether they're poisonous or not.

So the, um, do you want me to go further on identifying or Well, - I'm actually gonna take one more step down that same pathway. Okay. Okay. Which is, you know, there's lots of ways to get educated about, um, you know, mushroom identification. You can, you can join a mushroom group. There are videos online. There are certainly some like really great cornerstone books. You know, you are not only self-taught, but you, you know, you teach this at, you know, the university level.

You are, you know, I don't know if you are, you know, technically a professor, but you teach coursework at the college level, right? So you are a professor first as far as I could care. Um, so, so, so what, for people who are new to identifying mushrooms, um, what would you recommend as the best way to go about learning about wood lovers identification? - Yeah. Even though I'm self-taught, I have had a lot of friends that have given me firsthand knowledge by going out and harvesting.

I'd recommend joining a psychological group or even just being online, the different social media platforms where there's groups that can help identify things. Taking pictures helps out a lot. Having guidebooks, like you're saying, helps out just whatever you can do to educate yourself, both in the library sense in books, but also firsthand knowledge of going out and foraging actually touching these mushrooms.

'cause it's important, um, the, the way the stem feels, the, the smell of the mushroom even. So there's all kinds of different characteristics that we can identify before consuming and taking the wrong choice. - Right on. Yeah. So, so in set three, we're gonna set three is gonna be the biggest set and we're gonna focus on, you know, cultivating these outdoors on your own property.

But, but before we go to the commercial break, I think it's really important to, um, to talk a little bit about, um, mushroom harvesting and the ecology, right? So, so, you know, anybody who's interested in mushrooms wants mushrooms, right? But, but wanting mushrooms now you have to remember that there is also a wanting mushrooms later and then other people wanting to participate with the mushroom as well.

You know, what are the ways that we should harvest mushrooms when we find them in the wild? Which sets up a situation where it'll encourage food further growth so that you can wildcraft them the next season as well. - There are different culinary mushrooms, uh, more so than the wood lovers, um, to be discretionary in the way the methods to harvest.

A lot of people that harvest chant trails will cut them because there's little primordial mushrooms behind in the stem area that will come back in weeks to come. So you could have more to harvest in the future that season. A lot of these mushrooms are microrisal, so you're not going to damage them necessarily by pulling them out of the ground because they're in the roots of the trees and the plants.

But there are other types of mushrooms like the pine mushroom, it's also a microrisal with the pine. Uh, it's a matsutake, the pine mushroom, the pine tree, and people rake around those trees and damage a lot of the ecology around the trees by really raking up because the mushrooms are found underground, generally in the, the death.

So it's generally with, um, philosophy mushrooms, you're not going to have like a damaging effect unless people are damaging the ecosystem around where the mushrooms are, you know, so tr tread lightly, don't leave your da your garbage, your um, your stuff around and um, maybe leave a few mushrooms for others to see .

- Right on. It's nice to know, though, that if we're leaving mushrooms, um, it is because you wanna be kind to somebody that comes behind you and it isn't like culinary, which is where I got the idea from the question where they're always like, you know, only, um, only harvest a half to two thirds because you don't want to impact the sustainable life force of the patch as a whole. And it sounds like that's just not, that's just not the way the, the biology works when it comes to wood lovers.

- No, not at all. In fact, a lot of times patches are just that season that are outside. Uh, very rarely do I go year after year after year and find wood lovers in the same area, unless there is d wood debris or plant debris that's falling every season to help feed that area every year. - Interesting. Yeah, I, uh, I didn't realize why, I know that I don't see them year to year, but I wasn't sure why, but it's because they consume all of the nutrition in that area. I'm get, I'm starting to hear.

And so if you have an area that you like to wildcraft, you know, be a, be a steward and um, you know, put, put cardboard and or forest duff and or local leaves there and, and, and help out its process. - Yeah. Um, sometimes patches just don't work even like you've done everything you can and no matter what happens, the chips just kind of degrade and, and they move away.

Or you'll have a successful patch for one or two seasons and you try to give them more food and something happens and they just die off. So there is a bit of die off here and there, but there's also a lot of success season to season. So. Oh, - Oh, that sounds so sad. So sad. . Alright, so, so, um, this has all been a set up for set three though. Set three is probably why you're here. Dear listener.

And set three, now that we know, uh, who the wood lovers are and where they are in the wild set three probably gonna be the longest set is all about setting up a patch at home. So stick with us until after the break. You are listening to Shaping Fire and my guest today is Mycologist Christian Kalin. As cannabis regulations become more demanding and consumers become more educated, it is increasingly important to avoid the use of chemical pesticides when cultivating cannabis.

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That's D-Y-N-O-M-Y-C o.com shaping. Fire listeners can get 10% off any size of Dyna myco on dyno myco.com by using the discount code shaping fire, one word, no caps. Whether you are starting with new beds or pots, or if you want to add some zing to tired soil, choose Dyna Myco to maximize your plant's potential. Dyna Myco Endo Michal inoculate. Welcome back. You are listening to Shaping Fire. I am your host, she Los, and my guest today is my college Christian Kalin.

So here we are in the big finish and probably for what you are here for dear listener, because we're gonna talk about how to set up one of these wood lover cultivation patches at your house. And I gotta tell you, they are a lot of fun to put together in preparation for this episode.

Um, uh, I produced a a few of my own, which you'll be hearing about in a moment, and, uh, it's, it is sure a lot of fun and I'm looking forward to seeing, um, what kind of fruit they show here in the winter, uh, or in this coming fall. So, so Christian, you know, I think right at the top, we should probably hit the legal aspect right here, uh, to get us off the hook and, and that that is that, um, you know, be aware of what the laws are wherever you're looking to grow these.

It is true that these are naturally occurring, but based on where you live, you could get in trouble for intentionally cultivating them or possessing them, or God help is selling them. And, um, be really aware of what's going on because the rules are changing fast in different, you know, state county municipality all the way down and, you know, shaping fire. We're an international show, right?

And so, even though, you know, cultivation of these mushrooms may be illegal in much of the United States because it's a schedule one drug, um, that is not the case everywhere where, where the shaping fire audience is. So, um, you know, be smart and, uh, you know, either stay legal or stay quiet. , don't get yourself in trouble. Mm-Hmm, and, you know, uh, be, be respectful. We don't want anybody, you know, you know, taking your property from you or anything.

So, uh, and we're also not making any claims to what is legal where you happen to live. So, uh, so, you know, be an adult about it and make sure that, uh, you are clear about what is legal in your area. Alright, there we go. Moving on. So, so Christian, you know, what are the key factors for successfully cultivating wood loving psilocybin mushrooms?

We're gonna, we're gonna talk about details in a moment, but as somebody who is, you know, intimately familiar with it, I'm sure that there are the major pillars that any, uh, you know, outdoor cultivation has to include. And what are those? - The culture is primary, you know, where, where you get your base culture from. What species is it, what does it need, and do you have the location, the habitat, the substrate to give it the best opportunity? - So what are, what is that habitat?

So let's say that that, um, a you know, a listener is, is looking at their yard and they've got, you know, some variety. Um, uh, what, what are the questions that I would be asking myself when deciding what part of the yard to, um, to, to make my planting - Where, where you live determines how much going out of your way you have to, to make your patch successful here in the Pacific Northwest or places where it's humid, it doesn't get super hot. These are where they like to thrive.

Naturally, we are in the best place and we don't have as many firewalls that we have to put up, so to speak, to give them the best opportunity possible. So other places, maybe in the Midwest, uh, southwest arid places, not very humid, you're going to have to make a lot of different layers and put it in a nice location where it might not get direct sunlight and go out of your way to give it the best possible chance. So yeah, that's kind of it in a nutshell.

- Alright. So, so, so you've described, um, shade and, and also, you know, some amount of moisture. So, you know, where we live, the moisture is everywhere. It's in the air, it's on the ground, that's easy. Um, but if somebody is looking at their property, their first choice would be shade because they don't want the area to cook. But then second, maybe they are looking at the more damp part of their property, right?

Maybe, maybe the part of their property that's maybe more wetlands or maybe has a stream near it or, or maybe has got a, uh, you know, during the winter that's where water pools, these are the kinds of things, right? - Yeah, definitely. You don't want it to get soaked, so you don't want it in a flood zone and you don't want it necessarily to be facing, uh, the sun all summer. So you want it, you know, to be in a, a south sloping area, you know,

all these things can make a huge difference ultimately. How - About what kind of trees they're under? I mean, we know they love the hardwoods. Did should we be planting them underneath a hardwood tree? Um, it definitely sounds like we should be avoiding furs because their, their root structure definitely doesn't provide the environment we're looking for. Right?

- You know, it's actually opposite because you think the deciduous trees don't offer much protection in the wintertime, and this can be just as kind of harmful, depending on the extreme, the extremists of your winter. So it, you would think that having it in, I mean, it's not gonna hurt to have it in a deciduous treat area, it's just depending on what kind of winter you're going to have.

So it is kind of nice. I, I have seen success around conifers just because they are a shade tree, basically year round. And so this can be a very nice place for them. They're, you're, you're building your patch on top of the roots, so it's not like they're going to impede with the success of the patch because you're topically on top of the conifer roots. So I don't see any problem with that.

Um, you know, bamboo is another one that people have used a lot because bamboo loses its leaves every year, but it's also an evergreen. So you have shade year round, plus you have a food source for your patch. There's, uh, cardboard and tarps like we talked about before too. If you just don't have a location with trees or any kinda shade, maybe even a building on the side of the house can work, uh, then using topical methods, tarps and cardboard and straw will greatly benefit.

- So it sounds like we're talking about, we want, we want moisture, we want shade so we don't get too much direct sunlight and then we want food. And so putting it somewhere where, uh, there's gonna be forest duff or leaves falling from above or, um, you know, uh, plants that just drop lots of like, you know, sticks or flowers or petals or we're, we're looking for anything that is going to drop on your pile and degrade, that's a win. - Yes, definitely. Alright.

It doesn't have to be that way, but that's definitely a plus. - Right on. Um, good. Alright. So, um, a lot of folks, uh, me included, um, you know, we start this, we'll be, you know, we'll be de I'll be asking you to describe this lasagna technique in a moment, but, but one of the main, the most important, uh, input for the, the, the lasagna style is the wood chips. Um, you know, what, what best practices are there for choosing your wood chips? Other than it sounds like them being hardwood?

The only one that I for sure came up with was, um, uh, being careful, uh, grabbing the, uh, the, the wood chips that come from like the city parks and things like that because many cities used pesticides and perhaps there will be chemicals in those wood chips, but, but other than those, I'm not sure what other, um, best practices there might be for choosing wood chips. What might you have for us?

- That's true if you were to source from arborists, you know, depending on where they got their trees from, there could be risk of herbicides or other things. Generally when you deal with, here in the Pacific Northwest, we we're a tree state, so there's lots of wood, which is nice. Uh, other places might not have that. But I would say on the whole, you know, if you're getting wood chips from an actual chip company, then generally they can be certified organic actually.

So there's in the wild, you know, they're just the alder here in the Pacific Northwest is what you'll usually find. And they're a weed tree for the most part. They're everywhere and they're, they're free of contamination. So, um, definitely want to know where the, the chips came from. But I think on the whole, you know, even if they're in someone's yard, people generally aren't spraying their, their hardwood trees. It's more like plants and things down below.

Um, and then also like, just making sure that the chips haven't been somewhere where they've soaked up or they've aged or they were from trees that were already dead and decaying and had all kinds of contamination in them. That would be something you want to start with. Nice, fresh chips that were from healthy trees. Mm-Hmm.

- . Um, this may seem like a laughable question considering we're doing this interview in the Pacific Northwest, but, um, you know, not everybody has got trees like we've got. And, um, somebody on Instagram asked me, uh, during a discussion whether or not they could use bagged hardwood chips that they use for smoking meat. Yeah. So like, just like bagged hardwood chips. Is there any reason why that would be excluded?

- No, just the lack of information maybe of not knowing where they came from or how they were handled would be the only uncertainty. But I would say any kind of chip, basically, if you're willing to just rehydrate it, that's all that needs to happen is just take dry wood and soak it in a bucket of water and get it as hydrated as possible before you inoculate it. - Right on. So, so let's talk about, um, uh, uh, where to get our, our starting spores or mycelium now.

Um, my favorite way, um, my favorite way, I sound like I've been doing this for a long time. I have been doing this for one month, right? . So, so in my, in that one month though, I've made a, I've made a few of these installations.

And so, um, but all of them came from that one patch that I mentioned earlier, that eight by 10 patch because, uh, my friend was, uh, uh, selling their house and they're all like, Hey, you know, um, this is, this is, this patch is probably gonna get ruined anyway, so, you know, feel free to come and collect mycelium. And so, um, you know, we went and we, we scraped the surface and we grabbed a bunch of mycelium. So we had like, really nice rich myceliated wood chips and de degrading.

And, and that's what, you know, we used for these patches that, that we've installed in the last month. And so that's, that's a great source. So if you can, if you can grab mycelium from the wild, respectfully there, there, there's a great option. But, but you know, I, you and I talking casually you've mentioned many times, um, you know, getting spores and doing the inoculation yourself.

So, so maybe talk a little bit about of where to get spores because, um, even though the possession of, uh, these mushrooms are illegal many places, oddly selling of the spores is not - Yeah. You, you can get spores online. I, you know, it, I, I don't necessarily plug any one in particular. I, I've had spore syringes where, um, there weren't any spores in it. So there's, it's kind of funny, it's hit and miss, it's kind of the wild west still as far as what you can get out there.

Um, definitely would rather find a wild specimen and use fresh a, a fresh culture. Fresh mycelium is the easiest, basically to get started spores you're dealing with a lot of different DNA, uh, characteristics and you're, you know, if you start spores on cardboard, even just as a low tech way or, um, broadcasting the spores into, uh, wet wood debris can also help, but it's, it's variable. You will get a couple spores to germinate, and then that mycelium is very kind of primitive in ways.

It's not necessarily the most aggressive lines to start from. Generally when you start from a spore, you have to put it on a Petri dish in the laboratory, get really aggressive lines to sequence out, and it might take three or four or five months of transferring from plate to plate to actually get an aggressive line that will fruit mushrooms. So spores can be, uh, a legal way, um, to get to acquire the culture.

But then you also, you know, once you spore, once you germinate the spores and start mycelium, that is considered, you know, illegal. So it, it's one of those things where, um, if you can find it in the wild or you have somebody that has a little bit of a culture or patch that you can borrow from, you can literally take a piece of someone's patch and transfer it to your patch and have a successful patch.

- So you caught me off guard describing purchased spores, uh, taking them into the lab, into the Petri dishes just to grow them out. Mm-Hmm. , um, uh, does that have to be done or can you just buy wood loving spores online and, and literally go over to your wood chips and squirt it out, you know, in drops all over? Mm-Hmm, your wood chips, like, can you do it that directly or do you have to grow it out first? - You can do it that directly. It, it's just variable as far as your success.

You're, you generally, when people buy spores, they just are hoping to get one or two mushrooms that then they can culture and have a fresh mushroom to culture. Oh. And then from there they can have a more direct clone that's more aggressive, that will fruit more mushrooms in the future. So starting from spores, you're generally not going to get a very successful harvest right off the bat. It takes time to get that mycelium to the point of like a kind of a commercial fruiting strain.

- So when wild harvesting your start as I did, you're kind of, excuse me, you're kind of stuck with whatever, um, you have nearby or that you can borrow from. Um, Mm-Hmm. , if you are looking to have success right off the bat, is there a particular variety of wood lover that you would recommend someone buy the spores of just to increase their likelihood of success if they're gonna do it the janky way I described Mm-Hmm.

where you're just gonna like squirt the spores out of the syringe onto the pile. Because I know there's a lot of people out there like me, who, who as soon as you said Petri dishes, their eyes rolled, you know? Yep. And they're like, oh God, I'm just, I'm just not that kind of person. I'm gonna buy this thing and I'm gonna go squirt it on my pile, and then I'm gonna let it rot and I hope for good stuff in the fall. And so, right. So for all of those people, which include me like, like, mm-Hmm.

, like, is, is there one particular variety that we, that we might wanna focus on that is more, I don't know, aggressive, perhaps? - Yeah, that's a good question. I think Azure essence are definitely more technical as far as, uh, cultivating, they're a little more finicky. The senescent you'll find more frequently out in public, and they are, uh, more aggressive and like different substrates. So you'll probably that, I would say my top three would probably be Senes essence, ovoids and Alinea.

As far as, uh, the, the ease of success. Ovoids tend to fruit both in the fall and the spring, which are really cool. They technically fruit more in the spring than in the fall, which is kind of a cool thing because most fruit in the fall, and then also I've seen ovoids that really just aggressively consume whatever substrates available. Like they'll, they'll consume evergreen and other plant life and all kinds of different wood. So they're, they're a lot more aggressive - Overall.

They're like, gi, gimme something to eat. I don't care what it is. Let's go. Yeah. - Yeah. So I, you know, I would say maybe Ovoids would be top, top on the list as far as ease and flexibility in the seasons. - I like, like that idea that you get two flushes a year too. Um, Mm-Hmm. , which leads me to my next question, which is gonna be, you know, most of the wood lovers are known for being fall, um, fruits, um, mm-Hmm. . Is there a reason why they don't fruit in the spring as well?

Because, you know, with, with many species of plants, you, you, they, they will go through the same experience in the spring because there's this, this window when the, when the temperature's right. And the moisture's, right? And, and, and then they do their thing, and then, and then in the fall they do it again because the moisture's, right? And the, the heat is right.

And so they're like, there's two windows a year, but then there's also lots of fungi and lots of plants where they're all like, no, we are gonna, we're gonna flower during this one time of year. And that's it. So you better pay attention so you can see the flowers. And, and so now you've just described the ovoids often have a spring and a fall flush, whereas the senescence I'm gathering, um, is really just fall and there isn't a spring one. Do we know about that, those mechanics?

- I wish I, that's a great question. That would be an intriguing mystery to solve. I, I'm not sure, um, you know, - We run - Into, I can't even really think of it. I can't think of anything really off the top of my head of why. - And that is one of the reasons why it would be so cool to be back in college and be a mushroom nerd and suddenly be coming into mushrooms.

Because, you know, when, when you and I were, you know, in our twenties back in the day, um, you know, if you had this interest, um, you had to do it like totally on the down low and you had to make sure nobody knew about it. And, you know, you'd have your spot in the forest or whatever. And, um, because it was not nearly as acceptable as it is now, but now, you know, we've got, we've got universities with cannabis cultivation programs and Right.

And, you know, everybody and their neighbor is into, um, you know, functional mushrooms for this or that. What a great time to be, you know, in your twenties or, you know, or, or at, at the start of a career and being able to go into this because there is so much research to be done. Just like the question I asked you - On so many levels, it it is amazing. I'm so glad that I was able to see it in my lifetime. I was getting a little worried there. Yeah. .

- Well, hopefully it'll all continue then. Yeah. Alright, so, so the next thing I wanna do is, is, uh, you know, I, you know, you, you taught me how to make these installations, um, from, from a wildcrafted mycelium source, um, Mm-Hmm.

. But instead of me talking about it, I would love you just to walk us through the steps of making a, what we've just started calling on the island, a lasagna installation, which is a little wordy for what it is, I guess, but, but at least everybody knows what we're talking about. So, so, so the assumptions I want you to start with is, um, we, we, we have identified a place on the part on the property, um, that has got some, um, uh, tree cover and, and yet it's on the edge of the, of trees.

And so it, it gets partial sunlight during the day and that it's gonna be moist most of the season, except for maybe during the drought part of the season where you might have to water it. So, so we've got a decent place and we have identified some hardwood chips that we can use. Mm-Hmm. . So we've got our hardwood chips, and we've got a couple of shovel fulls of inoculated mycelium that we found in the wild. Please walk us through how to do the install, uh, at home.

- Okay. There, there is a precursor to this patch that can be very positive in the success of your future patch. A lot of people, you know, with es grows mono tub is kind of a frequent word that you might hear, but it's basically just a plastic container that people start their mushrooms in. And growers that are experimenting with wood loving varieties are having good success with starting their mycelium in a mono tub, basically.

And so you, you have your mycelium that you've got from a friend's patch or wherever out in the wild, you could layer a little piece of cardboard down on the bottom of the plastic container to kind of be an absorption of excess moisture, as well as like a platform for this. The culture to really run through the paper and have a nice foundation, I find that as, uh, mushrooms are used to being in the ground or inside something and then growing outwards.

So to have your mycelium at the bottom of your container and then growing outwards at the top is seems to be a little more successful. And then, like you're saying, the lasagna layer is just, uh, you know, a metaphor for creating layers in your container of different substrates.

So, um, with your mycelium at the base, then you want another fresh layer of either sawdust or, um, sawdust mixed with wood chips or just wood chips, and then layer more wood chips, maybe a little bit of sawdust if you have it.

You could even use straw if your straw doesn't have, you know, if you can find organic straws best, it doesn't have herbicides, but you can layer straw in with your wood mixture as well to kind of give it a little different airspace so that there's, you, you don't want to create like a anaerobic condition where it can't breathe, but creating enough food source that, that my stone will just keep rising up through your substrate until it reaches the top.

And then this is like your spawn that you can take clumps from this mono tub of spawn of substrate and then use that as a seed or a spawn for all the patches that you wanna make. So that's kind of a, a better way to, to increase your culture before you actually get started in your patch.

If you didn't want to go through that process and you're just excited to start a patch, you basically do the same thing just without the plastic container outside, like you said, you found your, your location, you might want to, uh, saturate some cardboard in water till it's completely soaked.

Put your culture or your mycelium down on that gives it a nice platform foundation to leap off of and then layer up your chips and your sawdust and chips or whatever you have available, and maybe top it off with a little bit of cardboard on top to protect it if you don't have a lot of tree cover

or a wet straw. Basically, - When we were doing our installs two weeks ago from, uh, from that source I was telling you about, somebody asked me how many layers they should put in their lasagna, and I had no idea I was just doing three layers because that's how much, um, mycelium, inoculate and cardboard I had. Right. Um, but does it, yeah. Does it matter whether it's two layers, three layers, five layers? I mean, is there, is there any analysis in that?

- That's a good question. The more food that you give your mushroom or your mycelium, the longer it might take to actually fruit, because we have to remind the viewers that mushrooms are like the last reproductive cycle of the mycelium and it thinks it's dying. So it's creating a mushroom to create spores to reproduce.

So we're in essence trying to give it just enough food to really grow out, make the mycelium strong, and get it to the point where it's ready to burst and start creating these little mushrooms. So it is a lot of timing and experimentation in your area of like your culture, how fast it's growing through your substrate. It might take a year or two seasons of like experimenting to see, oh, I, I should have, you know, this season it, the spring, it was really cold.

I got my patch in late. It got really hot in the summer. I didn't water it, it dried out. You know, there's, there's lots of different variable season to season, but I technically think the more, the better.

You might have to wait longer for your harvest, but the more substrate and the more layers that you put in with, um, a lot of, if you can create your mycelium first, like I was saying, and the little plastic tub, then you, you can really inoculate heavily with mycelium in a lot of substrate that then will create a really aggressive, robust patch that will potentially fruit for a couple seasons for you.

So I'd start bigger than smaller if you're really serious about like, trying to get a successful patch going. 'cause it can be, it, it, there's so many variables, you - Know? Yeah, totally. Well, that's why, you know, kind of, you're kind of giving us like a loose recipe, right? And then Mm-Hmm, . And then depending on where we live and what materials we have access to, we kind of apply that recipe like however we can where we live.

You know, I had never heard the idea of starting, um, your mycelium in a mono tub outdoors. That is a really interesting idea because you're kind of, uh, creating an incubation, right? You're kind, or like, you know, we talk about, um, uh, uh, aerated compost teas a lot, right? So you take your basic, uh, oxygen loving microbes and you're putting it in your, in your, uh, bubbler, and then you're bubbling it so that you make a lot, a lot, lot more microbes.

And then you, and then you put that on your plant. This is the kind of the same thing where we're talking about, okay, we've got, we've got this, you know, shovel full of mycelium and we, we wanna make a big patch, so let's put it in the mono tub with a whole bunch of, um, hardwood sawdust and chips and cardboard, and let it grow through the tub so that when we go to make the outdoor installation, we're not just using one shovel full. We've got, you know, this, this quarter of a tub full.

And we're like, hell yeah, let's go. That's a really great idea, especially if you only have a little bit to work with. Now, I wanna ask you, how much do you think, like when, when we say a lot or a little, how should people think about that? Like, how, how do they know how much they have to make their installation and let, let's use, let's use me as an example. So from, so from this huge eight by 10 area, we didn't even take like half of it. Um, but we got five, five gallon buckets full, right?

So that's, those, that's like I, and to me that sounds like a ton of, you know, myceliated, um, mushroom or wood chips for us to use. And then we, we took those five and then we split it up between five locations, right? And so we used, you know, more or less a five gallon bucket along with the other cardboard and, um, hardwood chips.

Now using that as the example was that like, you know, is, is a five gallon bucket, like a whole ton where, or where we only need a little bit, kind of like think it through for us. - Yeah. I, I would say a five gallon bucket of my CD ships would be enough spawn to inoculate. I mean, you can stretch it out however you want, but to make a nice successful patch, I think more is better.

So amplifying your mycelium, like you said in, in the Tupperware, and then using like, or a five gallon bucket and then maybe a four foot by four foot squared space, almost two feet in depth of substrate would be like a five gallon bucket of an inoculum. You could maybe do like a, you could push that to five foot by five feet, or, you know, whatever you think.

But the depth of the substrate too is something to consider because, um, that mycelium needs to get mixed into the bottom all nice and thoroughly, and then you want it all to kind of expand out together instead of having a lot of patches that aren't colonizing. And so, yeah, I'd say five foot by five foot for a five gallon bucket of my son. Okay.

- So, so if we have a five gallon bucket, we know we have tons of, we, we know we have plenty of myceliated wood chips and, and we're clear, but, but like, give us an idea of what is the, the least amount that we should, uh, try to start a pile with without trying to incubate and make more in a mono tub first.

Like, if we only have a, uh, you know, a a, um, sh one shovel full, um, is, is that just like too precariously low amount to like, try to make a three foot by three foot bed width and, and we should definitely go with the mono tub first. Like, like give it, gimme a threshold point. How do we know when we have too little amount to go right to nature and we should incubate first? - Oh, that's a great question. I, you know, I always tell my students to push the boundaries.

If you don't have what you need, maybe go a little bit smaller. Uh, yeah, A shovel's worth of really decent mycelium would probably be able to do a three foot by three foot, um, by two foot little patch. You know? Um, I, it just depends on the culture and how aggressive it is and all the different variables. I can't say for sure, I don't wanna promise anybody, but I would say you'd be on the safe side to still be able to have a significant patch just with the shovel full. Okay, - Good.

Well, that, that, that's a lot less than I thought, so that's great. That really opens up, uh, the door for a lot more folks because god knows it's, you know, a lot easier to find a small patch than it is like that big one that I stumbled upon. Right. Right. Which will be, you know, given out to people on the island for, for years to come now. Um, - Yeah, A little, little side point on the mono tubs, people actually grow and fruit in the mono tubs as well.

So they're creating these little mini habitats within the mono tub, actually having a, maybe a little grass seed on top producing a little carpet so that they have like this ground cover essence, but it's still all in a mono tub basically. And they're fruiting out of the mono tubs, but it is a seasonality thing outside where you're keeping things outside, but they're cultivated. - You'd have to drill drill holes for drainage in the bottom right. Yep.

- Yep. - That actually sounds like a lot of fun. Yeah. Like, I'm not, I'm not like a big proponent of like, like, like let, let's add plastic tubs outdoors, but, but it sure sounds like fun to like, to do it with this more, uh, more controlled environment. - Yeah. Not everyone has an a backyard or access to a yard, or they live in an apartment. Yeah. - That we could do it in a deck. Yeah, - Yeah, yeah. Totally. - That's a really good point. Yep. Thank you for that.

Um, a question about the two foot depth. Um, so that got my attention because none of the five we made was two feet deep, right? Um, um, each of them, they all ended, only ended up like, you know, 12 or 13 inches. - Okay. - Do you know if, if they're, if, if we're building this lasagna on bare ground, does the ground count for some of this two feet - ? If the ground is soft and has the same kind of substrate that the mushroom likes, then yes, it's okay that your patches weren't too deep.

You're going to need more care in the long run to make sure that they don't dry out. So in the summer, definitely go out there and water, uh, you might wanna put a cardboard layer over the top in the extreme heat as you water, you are watering your cardboard. That then helps create a humid environment for your patch. So the, the less depth in your patch, the more care is gonna take throughout the year just to make sure the extreme temperatures don't.

- That makes sense. Yeah. That, that happens with aquariums too. You know, if you have a little aquarium, the environment of the aquarium changes really quickly. But if you've got a, you know, a big a hundred, 200 gallon, it really takes a more push to change the environment that the fish are in. Kind of the same thing for this patch as well. Um, so lip, - Straw, straw would be another Mm-Hmm.

good. Uh, allo ally, - When we're, when we're watering, we're not gonna be using municipal water, right? Because it might have chlorine or chloramines in it, which I'm guessing messes with our mycelium. And so we want to, uh, capture some rainwater and use that. Right. - It definitely helps. Uh, chlorine definitely is problematic. You, you, you're gonna get some growth, but it just tends to inhibit. - Yeah. So if we have, if if we don't have, I've heard of it.

If we don't have access to rainwater and our city is using, um, you know, you know, chloride, chlorine, and maybe fluoride, is it reasonable for us to just pick up some, uh, you know, distilled or ro water and just use that and we just know, know it's kind of like neutral water. - Yeah. People can leave their normal water out in five gallon buckets too, and just let the, the chlorine evaporate. You know, if you leave buckets of water out for, I don't know, maybe a week or two mm-Hmm.

, um, then you could use that as a watering agent too, if you don't have access to clean water, that's not chlorinated. - Um, we've already talked about, uh, you know, several different issues of things that could go wrong. Um, uh, are, is there any other big challenge in growing these wood lovers that we haven't, um, addressed for, you know, as far as it goes for the patches? Uh, something that I should have asked you about that I haven't yet? - Oh, good question. Um,

yeah, I mean, you were pretty thorough. Shang - , well, it helps that you taught me this just a few weeks ago, right? . So, so it is a, it is kind of fresh, so, alright, so let's, let's talk about the next fun part, which is the, the, the harvesting. So, um, so, so they're, they're, they're growing up and you've got your caps and, um, you know, generally speaking, uh, do we want to, we do, we wanna harvest when the, when the veils start to break and the, and the, and the caps start to flatten.

- I like to harvest earlier than later. Mm-Hmm. generally, and it's funny with the wood lovers, a lot of times they cluster together so tight that it's hard to not just pull up huge clusters together. So you'll, you'll have some kind of immature ones and some mature ones, but you generally will just start harvesting the patch all at once.

You know, if your patch is big enough, you might, it might take you a couple days or something, you can just kind of start taking the more mature mushrooms and as you're working through it, they just keep maturing. But I like more, uh, younger specimens so the caps don't just, uh, break apart into nothing. You can have these nice, beautiful motions, but I I, I'm into the aesthetic look of them as well. So I don't know, that's - Not necessary.

They look really cool together when there's lots of different stages of growth together. Um, it's, it's, I mean it's cute . Yeah. Um, uh, - But you can wait. Um, mm-Hmm. wait for 'em to flatten out. Some people think that, you know, they might get a little more weight from that or something, but I, i, I feel like it, you know, if anything you might be degrading the content, the potency of your fruit bodies by waiting longer.

- Um, I know that some mushroom varieties, once the veil is ripped and it starts to drop spores, this sporulation gives a signal to the substrate to stop fruiting are wood lovers one of those variety of mushrooms where we, you know, we really wanna keep it from dropping too many of the spores 'cause it's working against us. - No, not that I know of. Mm-Hmm. , um, that patch just, it'll just keep, keep going.

You'll, you'll have, um, some contamination from spores sometimes where, you know, it, it just creates kind of a dirtiness that will, you know, it, it degrades the mushroom caps when they have large spores from another mushroom cap on top of that cap Yeah. Kind of thing. And then it can degrade the mushrooms quicker. - Yeah. I've gotten that in my mono tubs and it's like, ah, . Yeah. It makes 'em very unattractive looking. They still work, but it's just very unattractive looking.

Yeah. Um, four wood lovers. Do you recommend, um, harvesting, uh, for example with like, you know, a, a razor blade around the bottom where you're leaving the base in the soil? Or are we good to just like pop them out and take some of the soil with us and then just clean 'em up in the house? - That's what I generally do the ladder. Uh, and then you can save those little stem pieces, the little roots and transplant those and create more mycelium or give them to friends or whatever.

So some people will wash the roots off, you know, the stems and try to salvage as much as possible. You know, Maria, Maria Sabina. Mm-Hmm. , um, back in the day said, you know, don't cut the feet off. 'cause the little saints, those feet are important too. So - good. So, so, so go, you know, if we're gonna pull 'em up, go ahead and cut off the feet and, and clean 'em up if you're gonna do that for yourself, but then take the feed and reintroduce them to your pile.

Um, mm-Hmm. and, you know, giving, giving back to your pile and, and being as efficient about it as you can. - Yeah. We're starting those little mono tubs and creating more mycelium. - Right on. So now, so let's say now you've got, um, you know, a a a, a couple of paper plates or whatever, full of mushrooms. How do you recommend going about, uh, drying them? And obviously we're talking about in a non-commercial application here, right? We're just talking about somebody's house. Yeah.

So how do you recommend they go about drying 'em out? - Just your typical dehydrator that you can buy online or at stores? Uh, they can just be a simple little electrical heat element in the bottom. And then they have the rack trays. They can be round or square. Sometimes people will just make a mini at home de dehydrator by, you know, creating a little box with a fan and room temperature.

If your house is around 68, 70 degrees with a little fan, that can be enough in a little container to dry out mushrooms as long as they're on a screen or something that it allows breathability. - Right on. I I I've done both of those. Yeah. - Yeah. I I I don't suggest using the oven much 'cause ovens have too high of a low setting to really, you know, it tends to kind of get too hot. Heat, heat can be damaging to the potency of psilocybin. So that's, yeah.

- We wanna evaporate them, not cook them. - Yeah, exactly. Yeah. - So, so now that they are dried, um, how do you recommend the storage of these mushrooms? And you know, like I know that storage could be a, you know, a third of a show in and of itself, but, but considering we're to this part and it's just for personal, you know, use, how would you store these?

So they last long list - The, there's differing research out there that says that potency is maintained through like 50 degrees and, you know, limited humidity at room temperature. You're not gonna have any kind of degradation in the potency. And then there's also kind of a side that says like, freezing fruit bodies could also be long-term storage. But then there's also a little bit of information out there saying that freezing actually degrades psilocybin.

So there's a lot of differing opinions and information out there right now as far as, um, storing long-term and room temperature freezing. But I think both I've had good results in both. Uh, at room temperature, if you're not sealed up completely and you were growing outside, there is chance of fly larvae, uh, germinating. So freezing can technically keep that from happening.

And so your, your mushrooms would last longer in a dried frozen environment rather than, um, taking a risk with fly larvae Yeah. Eggs in the future . So that - I haven't run into that. I hope I don't. - Yeah, I mean that's common in the culinary world with morels and portini where people will have a beautiful mason jar of morels or portini and they come back a couple months later and it's just powder because everything's germinated. So, uh, freezer will not allow that.

- So one thing I will add that I have, I have added to my, uh, best practices that I really like is, um, they, they sell these, um, vacuum seal devices for large mouth mason jars.

And so you can, you can put whatever, you know, cannabis or mushrooms into your mason jar and then you put the, the mason jar lid on, but then you put this device over the top and you push a button and it sucks out all of the, the oxygen from the jar, and then it seals the flat part of the two piece lid to the jar because, um, you know, the, the, the things that destroy these mushrooms are, um, you know, not only, uh, heat and, and bright light, but also oxidation.

And so if you, if you yeah, you know, jam your mushrooms into a jar and, and then, and then remove the oxygen. So there's a, there's a small ratio within the jar, meaning that your, your jar is packed, you don't have a small amount of mushrooms to a big jar, and then, and then you vacuum out all of the air, um, and then, you know, just throw it underneath your bed, you know?

Yeah. You, you're in a dark place that's, you know, more or less temperature stable and now you're in a non oxygenated environment. You should be good until you're, you next round of fruiting the next fall. - I like that. That's great. I, I didn't mention freeze drying either. It's a little more expensive, but they do make the desktops that are a little more affordable for the homeowner. And freeze drying is pretty amazing too.

I don't know what the research is as far as potency levels, but the texture and just what the mushroom looks like after it's freeze dried is just amazing. It looks like it's fresh basically. Yeah. It, - It is actually really remarkable how, how it doesn't, um, you know, it doesn't do the shrivel thing, so.

Yeah. Um, alright Christian, so, so, um, we're going into the wrap up here, but I wanna give you a chance to kind of wax philosophical because, um, I have heard you do do that before and I, and I have liked it . Um, and also you're, you know, you're pretty, because you are still very much in the mixed both, you know, at the, you know, with the academic part and the science part and also the entrepreneur part. You know, your your, your thumb is definitely in the mushroom pie as it were.

So, so wrapping up, what future research directions do you find most promising, um, for understanding or utilizing these wood loving psilocybin mushrooms? I mean, right now we focus on their, their beauty and their ability to heal. But you know, like we're just, we're just at the beginning of our relationship, um, with this mushroom since we're, we've started learning the actual science of it, so, Mm-Hmm. . So what excites you looking into the future of wood lovers and our relationship to them?

- Yeah, that's a deep question. Um, we didn't touch much on wood lover paralysis and I think - Probably, 'cause I don't even know what that is. I didn't even know to ask you. Yeah. So what, so go ahead and address that if you'd like.

- Well, that's kind of been my little mission of late because Oregon is banning the use of wood lovers for mental and, you know, for whatever reason and their new legislation for legalizing basically everything, but they're not going to allow wood lovers because of a wood paralysis that happens in people. It's very, um, does, does it happen?

Yeah, I, I would say it does, but it's, it's, I I'm a little uncertain about what it really is, and I think everyone else kind of is there, there's no real understanding as of yet. There's just kind of, uh, people's opinions and experiences, and some people just feel like within an hour of eating, a lot of times they're fresh, fresh mushrooms, and a lot of times they've been in New Zealand and Australia with the sub, uh, which I think is, uh, you know, a super potent mushroom.

And that might be part of why there is paralysis, because, you know, anyone that's taken a large amount of mushrooms can feel paralyzed throughout their experience, , whether it's like this physicalness or this, um, in, in your mind, in your consciousness.

So it, I'm, I I, I'm interested to know more about if there is a physiological paralytic response in people and, but more so I, I just think psilocybin and psilocin in general and all these different precursors and prodrugs, that's, that's my interest in the future. I've always been intrigued with the different varieties of philosophies and why each one has its own kind of characteristics as you ingest them.

Um, ovoids they grow in the spring and they have just this nice uplifting, energetic lightheartedness to them, playful almost as if, you know, as a spring, like mushroom would give you, um, the Azure essence is just knock your socks off, melt, melt your face off, go, uh, lose your, your name and, and who you are and, and come back to find out who you really are.

You know, there's so much, um, within this genus to offer and there's, we've delayed the research for way too long and there's so much that we're doing to our world and to ourselves and so much unrest that I just, I feel like this is kind of the last hope in ways for us to get together and understand why we're here and who we are and how to like group together to be like mushrooms, to work symbiotically, to get rid of the things that don't serve us

and, um, understand the true meanings of things. So, um, yeah, that's right on you. You got me going deep there. Yeah. - . Well, it does. I, I, you know, you and I have been friends for a while. I know it doesn't take much. So Well, um, well, I, - I mean this molecule does this like, um, this, this, there's, this is a bigger thing, you know, this, it's huge. It's not just a recreational thing that makes you feel good. Like there's, there's a lot more to it.

And I hope that more and more people that are scared of it or that are tentative, that, um, they would come to the forefront too. Um, legislators and people that need this, that can make a difference. Um, there, there's nothing to fear. - Right on. Yeah. Cool. Right on. Christian. Well, thank you so much for joining us today on Shaping Fire and sharing your expertise and, you know, heart, your good heart with us.

Um, it's really nice to talk to somebody who is, um, you know, clearly a scientist, but also is firmly grounded in the, you know, the ecological and, and heart relationship with the mushroom as well. Um, uh, it, it really makes for a different interview than somebody who is, uh, coming at it direct only as a scientist and, and, and your well-rounded nature with mushrooms, um, really came through today. So, so thanks so much Christian, and, and I appreciate having you on Shaping Fire.

- It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much. - Alright, dear listener, if you would like to, uh, learn more from Christian, there are two ways to do that. Um, the best way to keep up with Christian Kalin is to follow his Instagram, um, which is always interesting. Um, you can go about that two ways.

You can either, um, uh, search Christian, do Kalin on Instagram, or you can go by his actual, uh, uh, profile name that I'm going to spell for you here, which is Mike Gnostic, which is M-Y-C-O-N-O-S-T-I-C-K, is how you can find him on Instagram.

And, um, and if you are more of a linked in person or you have some interesting science to share with him, or, uh, you know, a project that you're working on that you'd like to involve with him, uh, by all means go, uh, go via his LinkedIn also at, uh, Christian Kalin. You can find more episodes of the Shaping Fire Podcast and subscribe to the show@shapingfire.com and wherever you get your podcasts.

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