EP106 Cannabis Root Structure Mechanics and Best Practices with guest Sarah Lane

I listened to a lot of Roots Reggae when I was in my early twenties. Being a stoner in school generally meant that there was a lot of reggae around. But in my early twenties, I discovered the Ban Israel vibration specifically, and everything changed. There are many other bands in the roots reggae genre, but for me, Israel Vibes is the quintessential roots band for me anyway. Israel Vibration embodies the essence of roots reggae through their messages of

spirituality, social consciousness, and liberation. Their use of rich melodies, uplifting chord progressions, and melodic horn arrangements further contribute to their quintessential roots reggae sound. They address themes such as African identity, Babylonian system criticism, the struggle of the oppressed, and the importance of faith and perseverance. Israel vibration's lyrics resonate with the poetic nature of roots reggae

encapsulating the struggles and hopes of the Jamaican people. Shirley, I listened to lots of the popular reggae at the time, and these themes imbue most reggae. But I didn't understand the authentic roots and meaning of reggae in my soul until I listened to Israel Vibrations. Similarly, we can talk about the importance of cannabis roots, a thriving rhizosphere and root zone, and the love of a thick mass of healthy plant roots.

But only when we really lean into roots culture cannabis roots science will we have both the heart and the knowledge to grow our best cannabis plants ever. If you wanna learn about cannabis health cultivation and technique efficiently and with good cheer, I encourage you to subscribe to our newsletter. We'll send you new podcast episodes as they come out, delivered right to your inbox, along with commentary on a couple of the most important news items from the week and videos too.

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You are listening to Shaping Fire, and I'm your host, Chango Los. My guest today is Plant biologist Sarah Lane. Sarah Lane is wrapping up her PhD in Plant and cellular biology at University of Victoria. Her work primarily focuses on root exudates that are involved in iron uptaken plants and their potential medical benefits. Sarah consults for licensed cannabis cultivators in Canada and is an avid living

soil, cannabis home grower. Due to her university research needs, she's also very experienced in fogs and hydroponics. Sarah has a wicked large plant collection and is currently designing a specialty terrarium for growing cloud orchids. Sarah Lane appeared on shaping Fire 99, just a few episodes back, talking about the symbiotic relationship between roots and other residents in

the root zone via exudates during the first set. Today, we will look at how roots and root hairs are created, how they absorb nutrients, the exudate relationship, and how different fertilizers impact the root zone. The second set is devoted to root structure. We will look at the various forms of root structure in soil, cocoa and hydroponic systems, and why they work and don't work.

We will look at the relationship between root structure and the soil food web, and we will discuss how various growing containers impact root structure and what that means for your plant. And finally, we will finish off with a discussion of best practices for growing a healthy and thriving root structure, including water, pH, soil amendments, and cover crops. Welcome back to Shaping Fire, Sarah. Thanks for having me. I'm happy to be back.

So glad to have you. You know, I don't usually ask guests back right away, but our discussion of root exudates during episode 99 just brought up so many root related questions for myself, and then in the comments online that I just knew that it was probably better to just invite you back right away and push forward into our discussion of roots and root structure. So, so thanks for making the time to come back right away. I'm so excited. So. Let's, let's dive right into it.

And we're gonna start out with some basics because it's become pretty obvious, um, over the years of taken, um, questions from audience members and, and you know, the, the people who I talk with at conventions, that there's a lot of us in cannabis cultivation that kind of take roots for granted. And so we're gonna start with some basics of what are roots and, and how they form. So, so let's start with the ultra basic. What are roots made of and how are they formed by the plant?

Oh, goodness. Um, so roots are basically an organ of the plant that are made up of a couple of different types of tissue. There's a vascular tissue to help transport water up into the, and nutrients up into the rest of the plant. It's surrounded by some other tissues that can kind of respond to the environment. There's an epidermis layer that kind of acts like a skin around the whole thing

to prevent like microbes and things like that from getting in. Um, and the purpose of a root is basically to, uh, provide anchorage so that the plant stays put and can survive wind and all that kind of stuff. But it's also for, um, for getting nutrients into the plant. Mm-hmm. . Um,

my understanding is that there are different types of roots. Um, I, you know, there's, there's like the primary roots, the big chunky parts that we can see, but then they, they seem to have like smaller and smaller branching roots all the way down to the roots root hairs. How, how many different flavors of roots are there? Oh, so many, so many flavors. Um, it also depends on the type of species.

So very broadly the type of root system that you can have, um, depends on what species you are and like for, I think for most and angio sperm. So those are the flowering plants. Um, they get split up into like roots that can form from a tap root and then roots that are fibrous. And a tap root basically just means that the plant will make one big long route that goes down and lots of, lots of roots will come off of that.

A fibrous root system is kind of like, it's closer to the stem and it's, it's, they're not as long, they're kind of just lots and lots, but there's also many other plants that don't even have a true root system that have like, kind of root-like structures.

And then when we get into just like a regular root ball that we're familiar with, so like a house plant root ball, for example, there's the primary root, but these can get split up into other like branching lateral roots that kind of move away from the root into other parts of the soil. And then from there you can have, um, I guess root hairs would be the next option. That's just like a single celled little root hair that sits at just a very short amount of distance from the root itself.

And that helps kind of pull up some more nutrients in the area. So let's talk about that tap root for a moment. Um, since we are talking about the root specifically for our favorite cannabis plant, um, you know, it's, it comes up all the time. People will say this just kind of off the cuff. They will say, um, you know, they prefer to grow from seed because they want to grow a plant with a tap root. Because when we clone cannabis plants,

the clones, when we plant them, don't have tap roots. Um, uh, is there a particular reason why clones don't have tap roots? And, um, what is the function of the tap root in a seed plant that we are missing out on when we grow a clone? Ooh, that's a really interesting question. So, I guess when we talk about the types of root systems that a plant can have, we are usually referring to like a developmental thing. So the plant, when it's in a seed, is programmed to have a tap root, root system.

When we clone, we're actually taking advantage of almost a wound healing response instead. So the plant has the ability to make cells that wouldn't normally be roots, turn into roots to help it survive, but that isn't necessarily how it was developmentally designed to do. So when we go to the tap root, when you grow from a seed, that tap root goes as far down as possible to get as deep as possible into the earth.

And advantage to like having a very long tap root is that if you can go like meters and meters down into the soil and then produce lateral roots from there, then you can access so much more of the, of the ground to get your nutrients from. And if you have like a really short tap root, then you're probably like, if you can only go four inches down, you're only able to access that much of the soil.

And so when you grow from a clone, I don't think it truly matters in the long run because we're usually growing in pots mm-hmm. and pots. Like even if you have a tap root system, you can only get to the bottom of the pot and then you're gonna be branching out from there. Um, but from a clones perspective, like you wouldn't have, if you were growing out in like, I don't know, a field, you wouldn't have access to that same depth of nutrients. It would be harder for you to get to.

That makes sense. I've, I'm gonna push on this one more ti one more question. Um, I, I, I, I love the perspective that you shared about how, um, a clone rooting itself is kind of, uh, like a recovery or a first aid event because it's been damaged and it's repurposing other , dare I say, stem cells, um, to, but no, no different, different cells in the plant to create this,

this root environment. Um, does the plant get stabilized and kind of shake off that, um, that that damaged first age, first aid kind of, um, living bias and like become a, a thriving plant? Or will a clone forever, um, be hobbled by the fact that it wasn't from seed? Oh, I, I love both. There's two things I want to talk about now. So absolutely, plants can recover, um, quite well. And if you think about it, they have to, they don't have feet like we do.

They can't just like wander over. So a lot of their like responses, they're constantly adapting to a new environment. And if it was one damage later, one damage event, like say they got flooded or something and then they can't recover, they wouldn't survive very well. So like any wound or anything like that that you can do, usually as long as you treat it properly and it comes back to a healthy

environment, you should be totally able to recover. Which is often why many, many different types of plants are vegetatively, propagated, including like potatoes and all sorts of other plants. Um, but the idea of a stem cell plants do actually have the ability for so many

of their cells to become stem cells. Oh, unlike us, where we just have this little tiny amount of stem cells when we're born and there's a couple of pockets of it, us of stem cells in our body that can react, um, in certain ways, plants, almost any cell can become a stem cell that will then be able to be any other part of the plant. That's why tissue culture works so brilliantly. Right on. I'm glad that I stumbled into that. Brilliant. I didn't,

I didn't realize that was the case. I was trying to make a pun. So good. Thank you, . No, it's perfect. This is a stem cell, but it's also a stem cell . Right. On, right on . So, um, so let's talk a little bit about, um, the, the roots job of bringing in, uh, nutrients. So, uh, one of the things that we talked about in the exit eight show that I found so interesting is all of the different ways that roots, um,

mechanize bringing in nutrition in different ways. And, you know, on shaping fire we tend to focus on living soil solutions. But we'll definitely be covering, you know, all other types of substrate today, especially since we're talking about roots. But for this question, what are the forms of various nutrients that roots can't absorb, assuming that they are thri in thriving living soil environment?

Cuz I'm assuming that they're gonna, they're gonna absorb like, you know, uh, like minerals in one certain way and maybe fungus in a different way. And you get what I think you understand what I'm asking? Mm-hmm. . Okay. So if I understand what you're asking correctly, um, how do roots take on different types of nutrients in the soil? Yes.

Is that right? Mm-hmm. . So there, there's a bunch of different things when we're talking about, I guess all nutrients at the end of the day can be broken down into nitrogen or phosphorous scs or like, like basically a salt. And that happens either because the plant is able to provide some sort of, um, chemical or enzymatic process that can break something down right next to it. Or because some bacteria or fungus next to it was able to do the same thing and they could take it up that way.

There is some evidence that plants can take up nutrients as slightly larger molecules, but I think this is very species dependent. I don't think all plants can do this. Um, or at least I'm not familiar with en enough, uh, papers that have shown this to be kind of a universal thing. And then when it comes to like bacteria or mice or those kind of things, it's, it's more of a, a conversation between the, the organism and the plant.

And that involves some chemical signaling and some invitations are sent and then the plant is able to repurpose the structure of the root to house it. So it's not necessarily that it's actually getting into the cell more like it's getting, uh, a special place in the root to grow. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.

, um, your answer, uh, is, is seems to suggest that, you know, another good reason that if we're gonna be growing in soil, it really behooves us to try to make a thriving and varied, um, you know, living root zone. Because if the roots themselves are not necessarily breaking these different, uh, nutritions down and it's their partnership with bacteria and other types of

microbes, all those friends need to be there. And, and the ways that, you know, all the ways that we try to create a thriving root zone and not, and not drown them with our water is all important if the, if the root zone is going to be able to have the buffet that we want them to have in their living soil. I would agree. Yeah, for sure. And the more vibrant that community is,

the better, um, nutrition is available. And not only that, a lot of the microbes that are found in the soil provide other benefits aside from nutrition, like competition against, um, pathogens. For example, if you have a lot of healthy bacteria down there, then there's less room for, uh, an unhealthy bacteria to show up. Um, it might just be stimulating the plant to make little immune compounds because they're there and they don't react strongly to that particular fungus,

but they're aware a fungus is there and they might be more ready. Um, there's so many things that they provide. Um, I know that you do a lot of aeroponics and so this, um, this may be an unfair question to ask you specifically for living soil.

And I'm not looking for us to like plug any manufacturers, but, you know, as somebody who is constantly looking at ways to create healthier and more thriving roots as you do in your research, um, are there any inoculates or particular teas or, uh, anything that you would recommend for living soil people to help support this, uh, thriving rhizosphere? Yeah, I mean, so for my research I'm generally trying to avoid the, um, the presence of bacteria as best as possible.

Cause I'm really trying to just get at the root, but I do use compost teas a lot when, um, when I'm growing at home and I, I usually, I don't know in places where you can get them, there's like a nettle horsetail br infer tea that you can use. A lot of 'em have molasses bases, which is really helpful to get certain types of bacteria and fungus to get growing. There's like so many good recipes online,

it'd be hard to plug just one. But if you, if you go and, and have a look at some compost tea recipes, I think the simplest ones are the best. Mm-hmm. , like a little bit of of soil that's healthy plus some sugar sources, plus some plants is usually a good start. Plus. And the one that you mentioned, I mean, you've got the, the, the, um, the silica from the horse tail and the, the growth hormones from the spring nettles. I mean,

that's a pretty potent mix you just, uh, suggested too. Oh, it is. Yeah. Yeah. . I guess the other one I would say too is, um, it depends on the stage that you're adding it. Because I, I will often, when I have very young plants, I'll do like a barley tea. So you soak barley for a little while and, um, all the different growth factors that allow the barley to sprout are then present in the liquids.

You can either buzz it up or you can take the liquid off and, and put it on young seedlings and it, it, it's thought to help grow and I do it myself. Right. On. Good clue. So, um, you, when you were back recently, uh, or back when you were here the first time re uh, recently on episode 99, that show was all about exudates, um, which is a, is is a, a process that the roots bring on, um, nutrients.

Now granted that's an hour and a half episode that we talked about exudates, and I'm gonna ask you to summarize it just in, you know, in, in a short answer. And because I think it's important that folks understand that roots do have this

exudate relationship because it's pretty badass. But I'll, I'll, you know, my goal is maybe hopefully to tease people with this so that they understand kind of what you're talking about for this episode, but then to encourage them to go back and listen to episode 99. So will you just briefly, uh, explain how, um, cannabis roots, uh, work with the exudate relationship? Yeah. So broadly speaking, exudates are, um, molecules that, uh, the plant root will make that goes outside of the root.

And it, it's, so it's made inside the root, it's, it's exported outside the root. And while it, while it's out there, it can do lots of different jobs. It can provide food for microbial communities, it can help to, uh, loosen up some nutrients. Um, like we were just talking about, breakdown nutrients and things like that nearby. It can provide some protective, um, efforts too to prevent, I don't know,

like it could be antimicrobial or antifungal or something like that. Um, and it, they're, they're just a huge broad range of, of molecules that do this job. Excellent. So, so, uh, go back and listen to episode 99 for more . So, um, so I'm really curious. We, we, we've already talked about how the, um, the roots, uh, take on, um, uh, nutrition and, um, and I believe that mostly happens at the root hair level.

Would you explain to us, um, in, in, you know, kind of both a chemical and a mechanical way, what's actually happening there at the root hair that allows the nutrition to come onboard inside of the root? Sure. I mean, I think for the root here, it still kind of comes across the way that it would come across in a lot of

other, um, cells. So when we're talking about transport from inside, or sorry, from outside the, in the soil environment into the root, all cells are wrapped up in this nice little membrane that has essentially, you can think of them as like little trapped doors mm-hmm. , um, for nutrients to come into the root that are regulated. So you'd have to turn on a switch for them to come in. And that happens. All, all cells are doing this all the time, and that is no different in a root hair cell.

The big advantage to root hairs is it's increasing absorption. So if you think of, like, think of how big a root is and how visible it is, you could see it, it's usually depending on how long the plant's been growing can be super thick. Um, whereas these root hairs are super, super tiny. And so while the main root can plow through the soil at a pretty good clip, the little root hairs are meant to kind of slide in between soil particles and increase the surface area. Does that make sense? Yeah.

It does. So that's kind of their primary purpose is to, is to increase the absorption rate. And when plants are trying to choose what kind of doors they want on their cells, the root hairs will often have a lot of, um, like for my work, I'm interested in how iron gets in and those root hairs can have more iron doors on them so that more iron can get in on those root hairs Right. Than they might in a regular cell. I. Like, I like that trapped door analogy.

And so there's all these different flavors and they only open when they are looking for the particular nutrient that approaches it. Exactly. Yeah. Like. There's a, like a secret knock or something . There. Is, yeah. Yeah, a little handshake. , uhhuh, , uhhuh. . So, you know, cannabis cultivators often come into contact with the roots, right.

Like sometimes just briefly when transplanting, but other times if the plant is root bound in a container, um, you know, we might be really aggressive with the roots, like grabbing them and ripping them and thinking that we're getting rid of tired roots that were compacted. And, and most people will say, oh, I'm stimulating new growth by pulling these, uh, these, um, you know, roots that were compacted off and giving it more room to breathe.

How careful should we be when handling the roots? Because on one hand, you know, because I learned it from my mentor, the, the ripping apart of the roots like makes sense because that's what I was taught. But I also constantly hear from soil biologists that, that the roots are very sensitive and we can put the plant into shock. So I'm assuming that the, the truth of the matter is somewhere in that range. I would agree, actually.

So I don't think it's wrong to think that you are stimulating growth because just like we were talking about earlier with the clone and, and how that's a wound healing response, that it makes more roots when you damage the roots. That is definitely something a plant will respond to and it will make more. So it's more about like hoping you don't damage it so much that the plant is

overwhelmed. I think like roots are very sensitive, so as soon as you take them out of the pot, they're being exposed to light. They weren't expecting, you're touching them. A lot of those finer structures, light the root hairs that are so, so small and fragile, like they're only a single cell thick. So like you're, you're definitely destroying those and it will definitely take the plant some time to recover from that. I think it, it depends on the type of plant that you're working with.

Well, specifically cannabis. Yeah. But there's gonna be a certain amount of cannabis plants that are very sturdy. Um, but there might also be more sensitive plants that maybe don't grow as well. Oh, I get you. Mean, you mean specific like what we call strains or varieties, not different species entirely.

Yeah. I mean I like, I, I grow a lot of plants, so I would say species too, but if we're talking strictly about cannabis, different cultivars are definitely going to have, um, different vigor mm-hmm. mm-hmm. . And so in a plant that has a lot of vigor, you're probably okay to maybe manhandle the, the pot a little bit more. Um, but in a plant that's very sensitive and doesn't grow that well,

it's gonna be trickier. And I think most of the time I would, I would say that unless the roots are dead or diseased, I would try and keep them intact as much as possible. Um, you can break them up a little bit. Like, um, like when you encounter, particularly with hard walled pots, sometimes you see the roots kind of run around in a big circle. Yeah. And so you can kind of try and loosen them up so that they'll not break them, but like try and kind of untangle them a little bit mm-hmm.

so they might go somewhere else, fluff 'em a little. Bit. Um, yeah, exactly. So that would be okay. I mean, I, I try and be as gentle as possible with my root balls, but yeah, it's gonna happen regardless. I think just the extent that it happens, you might have to be careful with some cultivars over others. Would it be fair to say that if we're growing from seed and we have a tap root,

we definitely shouldn't mess with that. Just, you know, if we're gonna, if we're gonna trim roots, trim, you know, secondary roots don't be touching the tap root. Yeah. I think that's probably fair. I, I don't know enough about what happens if the taproot gets super damaged, whether it would produce a new taproot and like how that developmentally would

occur. But I think it, like, because it does serve this different function than the other roots, that if you damage it too much, it, it will cause changes. And I don't know whether those changes would be good or bad. And I think it would be fair to intuit that, um, you know, a damage to a taproot would put, um, you know, extra undue stress on the plant that it would have to bounce back from. And since we're all dealing with a timed growing cycle that, uh,

none of us want, none of us want to cause that slowdown and growth. So for, for our, for our plant, um, we should probably just stay away from it. Yeah. And I think this actually is a good point that you're bringing up. The whole timed thing, if you have like a mother plant that's meant to be in vegetative growth for a very long time and it'll never get flipped over into flour, um,

you might have different choices to make. So for example, it gets root bound because it's growing so long and maybe you don't have a bigger pot, so you kind of have to do some pruning above and then some pruning below. And like, those are choices you would have to make with a, with a mother plant. And how much or how little you do of it would probably, again, depend on the cultivar.

When we're dealing with like a plant that's about to go into flour and it's only got a certain amount of time, that's where you really don't want to damage the roots too much because they don't have enough time. And all the time that it's going to spend recovering is time that's not necessarily gonna be put towards yield. So in like a, in a yield situation, absolutely. You definitely don't wanna be, you know, making that plant suffer too much. Awesome. That's a great delineation. Thank you.

So what biology determines if the roots? Uh, well, you know how like when you go to transplant, when you, when you pull it out of the pot, sometimes it's got those like bright white, like pearly white teeth, beautiful, um, roots and then, and then sometimes, you know, be like, you know, somewhere between a little more beige or gray and then you've got roots that are just like, you know, sad. Um, is, is it just our guesstimate that, um, that the white roots are the most thriving?

Is that the ideal or are lots of different roots of different colors perhaps just different kinds of roots? Because when I see the bright white roots, I'm all like, hell yeah, I'm doing good. And, and when I see the beige ones I'm like, oh, I'm not, I'm not, you know, treating this pot right in some way, but like, I, I really don't know. I just made that up. Oh, what an interesting question. Okay, so the roots, like all of the root is important. I, I totally agree.

I love seeing those little white root tips and in aeroponic sometimes they're a little fuzzy cuz of those little, little hairs. Oh, that's so cute. Yeah. Yeah. They're adorable. And they only occur usually pretty close to the root tip, um, because then they die off and then the plant has other, like, that's where you might see a lateral root form or something passed there. Um, so the white tips are the actively growing parts of the root,

which I think is why we love them so much. And we're like, yay, we've got a lot of white growing areas, but the rest of the root's still super important and the browning isn't necessarily because of, um, bad things. So oftentimes what will happen is different chemistry happens at the tip of the root compared to the, the older root plants might put down, for example, more tannins or protective molecules that, that will change the color of the root.

But that's because the function of the older root is different. If that kind of makes some sense to you. It does. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. So when we see those kind of browner roots at the, at the, you know, closer to the stem, that's just because the function has started shifting and so the chemistry of the root has started shifting. Um, and like it, it would be hard to pinpoint exactly what is happening there for a given call

tomorrow, but, um, that's generally what's happening. The, the ones where it's scary is when there is a black root tip, I guess. Like if that black black or dark brown or, or those kind of colors are happening at the very tip of the root, particularly in cannabis, cuz it's root tips are white. I do work with some plants that have a whole bunch of different colors happen

there. Um, but in cannabis specifically the white tip, um, if that's starting to brown or anything like that, you might have, um, a bacterial problem. So yeah, it just depends on where it's happening, I guess. Mm-hmm. . So, so let's say not quite as, um, bad as that black tipped pathogen version, which sounds like a horror movie to me. It is. Um, uh, is there, is there any way for us to identify roots during transplanting that

we should shave off? Because, you know, historically I would shave off, uh, a bunch of those beige ones if I saw them. And now I know that I, that was probably not well thought because, uh, perhaps the, the, the plant is creating tannins in those regions for, um, you know, safety and security reasons. And I just like cut 'em off. Is, is there any way for us to recognize roots that are, are a damaged part of the system that should be shaved off?

I think you can kind of think about it. I guess the other part is, um, there's a connection between the roots and the chutes where like there's usually certain roots that service particular parts of the plant above. So it's really hard for us, like looking in the pot as we're trying to transplant to be able to determine like, oh, this branch I cut off here are these roots here so these ones can go mm-hmm.

. So I think it is a bit of guesswork. Um, but like if they're, if they're like particularly dry looking, like they're kind of shriveled, um, and I, when a, when a root is like full of water, they're kind of, I dunno what the best word to describe it would be, but they're almost like plump, you know, like they, they have, yeah, yeah. They have like kind of a juicy look and um, if they're unhealthy or dead, oftentimes they'll be quite thin, like a thread almost.

And so maybe like the thready ones you can get rid of a little bit more easily. But it is a lot of it's guess work. And I don't have a firm answer for you as to which part would be, I usually for myself, I, I look for as I, as we were just talking about kind of like the browner root tips that might be experiencing some bacterial effects or something like that. But, but there can be good, good bacterial effects too. So I, I generally just try and do my best guess. Right. On.

I wish I had a better answer . Well. No, that actually is pretty good because what I took from it is that if you see roots that are particularly emaciated and they visually look thin and like they're not carrying water that, um, perhaps those can be removed. But generally speaking, we want everything in the root zone if we don't see like a black or colorful tip

on it. So just, uh, give, give your roots a light fluff and then go into the bigger pot and, and just don't think you have to touch the roots when you're transplanting. Don't assume that that's gonna be part of your transplanting process. Only do it if, um, uh, if you actually see visual problems. I, I think that's a pretty fair statement. Yeah, that's, or at least that's what I do.

And I know lots of people have different philosophies and what the best solution is, but I think for getting your plants to recover quickly from transplant, like as little damage as possible and as, as you say, like if, if they look emaciated and they're really sad looking roots, like maybe trim those off, but otherwise a little fluffle, do you.

Right on. You know, one of the, one of the interesting you said, you know, everybody's got their own philosophy and, and you know, that's true and there are, there are different ways to have different philosophies within actual science, but I think when it comes to cannabis, we've all been taught so much like bro science by our mentors and then from friends that, um, like if, if anybody should be decreasing the number of justifiable philosophies, it's,

it's our community because we have so much bad information to root out of our community first. And then once all that bad information is gone, then people can like find different parts of, of, you know, that the remaining area to, you know, count as their particular technique or philosophy. But, um, I don't know.

I kind of, I kind of think that that, that we, we haven't had access to proper science scientists, analytics and research folks for the last, you know, 40 years that, um, that, you know, us all trying to kind of bring the techniques all towards the center, which has actually got a scientific basis is probably a pretty good set for all of us. Oh, I agree. And I think, um, I think that there's, there's all these little habits that we do that we don't really question and

those I, I like to question myself Yeah. Too mm-hmm. , um, and as you say there, there's a lot of myths and legends about exactly what type of thing you should do at what time and things like that. So I, I think there's a lot of tried and true methods that have worked for people for

a long time. Um, but I, I do agree that bringing things around to like a scientific perspective and not just doing it because someone told you to do it, um, which is kind of ironic, can be giving advice about this, but , you know, like think about it, you know. Yeah. So, um, I've got two more questions before we go to the break. Now, in the, in the third set, we're gonna be talking a lot about, you know, the care and feeding of a thriving root structure so that we can have the best

one available. But, um, but uh, before we go to the set break, I want to talk about things that degrade root, root growth and, uh, two, two different categories specifically. Are there particular amendments, inputs, or fertilizers that can degrade root growth that we should avoid in cannabis plants? Ooh, interesting. I think this is a, this is a more of a conversation of mount or like what the state is, cuz this can happen when you're building a soil.

But it can also happen when you're feeding fertilizer. Like if it's too, I guess quote unquote hot is the term that we end up throwing around a little bit. Um, that can be a problem. And most of the time I would argue it's because, um, particularly with fertilizers, it's probably because of pH or something like that where it's like they're just,

the poor little root is getting flooded. And I think it also happens more with, um, certain limiting nutrients like nitrogen where the plant is less, um, less able to close the trap door. For example. Nitrogen is almost always like all the trap doors are open all the time cuz there's not enough of it. So if you flood your root system with too much nitrogen, it builds up.

But the way that plants convert what we feed them to a usable form of nitrogen to them, all the intermediates between fertilizer and usable nitrogen are toxic. So they'll start killing the cells off if there's too much of it. Um, and I think with soil, if it's not well mixed, um, it can actually heat up in not just hot as in like too much nutrients, but as in like temperature hot, uh, and obviously if your root zone is like 60, 70, 80 degrees,

you're gonna have a hard time surviving in those kind of conditions too. So. I like your example about if, if we have, uh, too much fertilizer in a particular place that it kind of, um, jams the trapped doors open and, and kind of force feeds the plant to its detriment. Um, that's the same description that people, um, use when describing, you know, bottled salt nutrients about how it force feeds the plant.

Is that what's happening like at the root level? Is that the, um, the, the, you know, the synthetically prepared, um, fertilizer is essentially breaking down the doors and, and going into the roots, um, more nutrition than the root zone would normally let in? Yeah, so especially with, I think it's more dangerous with, um, with like synthetic or bottled fertilizers because it's so concentrated, um, and it's in such an available form, the plant doesn't have to do any work.

So it just does flood into the root system. And as, um, as I was just mentioning it, like it's not so much that the nitrogen itself is toxic, it's that in order to be able to turn it into something usable, it goes through a toxic stage. So then the roots can't, it's just too much. They can't do that process quick enough to avoid all the toxic effects of that process. It actually can happen with really rich composts too.

It, it just, I think at least in my personal opinion, it's harder to do because a lot of those composts still needs some breaking down, so it's a little bit slower. But if you dump like pure compost at the root zone of a particularly sensitive plant that isn't capable of ticking it all up, it'll start to do similar things. Yeah. Right on. Okay. And then, uh, the last one is how about pesticides?

Because you know, sure we, we apply the pesticides usually Foley or up top, but we know that through, you know, watering and the, just the regular biology of the plants, either the pesticides will drip down to the soil or the plant will take it in and move those chemicals. Um, oh, you know, whether or not they be synthetic or you know, organic, they're gonna move them around the plant. Um, are there any pesticides that we would want to avoid because they too degrade root growth?

I mean I have a personal bias against this cuz I don't generally like to use pesticides, . Mm-hmm . I think that when you apply, I guess it depends very much on the type of pesticide you're referring to cuz a lot of them have toxic effects if they're in too high of a quantity and it actually can be both the naturally sourced ones and also the synthetically prepared ones. Like if you put too much mint oil on your plants and turn the lights on,

like those, those poor little guys are fried. Um, but with the pesticides like on, they're still able to take some up through the foliar system. But depending on what mechanism the pesticide is supposed to work by, um, I don't know if it would degrade the root particularly, but it might have the ability to affect the growth.

Like if it's acting like a growth regulator or um, or it's got a heavy metal component to it or something like that, I'm sure that it can be taken out by the plant and if it doesn't have a way to deal with it and it's toxic in higher quantities, that will probably happen in the plant just like it would in any other system. It's.

Interesting. We keep on coming back to balance, you know, it's like mm-hmm , it's like hey, you've got a lot of different options for how to cultivate your plant, but whichever one you do do it properly and not so much that you knock your root system out of balance.

Yeah, for sure. And like I think particularly with pesticides, I don't know if I would be like, I'm not personally aware of any pesticide that if you watered it in at the amounts that you would spray it, it would cause a huge amount of damage. I think if you did that you'd probably be killing it above as well. Um,

but it might affect the root community too. Like if you're adding an, an antimicrobial or an antifungal uh, agent to the top and then it drips into the roots, I think you'd be affecting the root community more than you'd be affecting the plant. Yeah. Which of course does affect the plant eventually. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I, I have to be careful that myself cuz one of my favorite, um, uh, well I I I think of it as a pesticide, but really it's, it's more about, um,

discouraging pests. Um, I really like a, uh, a garlic fermented plant juice on, on the, uh, you know, sprayed foliar during, uh, during veg because, um, you know, it it, no, no, like aphids is my big problem where I live. They just don't wanna live there. They don't like, they don't like the experience for, you know, whatever smell pastries in.

And so, but, but if, if I put too much of that onto the plant and it soaks down into the substrate, well, garlic also has antimicrobial, um, uh, aspects of it and I, and I don't want that happening in the root zone. Absolutely. Yep. I think I think it, as you say, it's, it's about a balance. So if you, if you just have to be careful, especially when you're trying to alter something that's happening to the plant in a way that doesn't affect the plant too. It just gets, I don't know,

it's sometimes it's subtle. Yeah. This is, well the, the more we get into, uh, the cultivation specifics, uh, it is more and more subtle, right?

It's like when you first start growing cannabis, it's like, oh, you know, just put the seed in the ground and it grows and then at the end you got some weed, but then you like want more yield and better weed and healthier plants and you wanna keep more plans and that's where the subtleties come as as we get, you know, more and more in love with this, uh, way to express ourselves. So right on. So let's go ahead and take our first short break and be right back.

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panels. Everyone can purchase these seeds and the entire catalog of Oregon CBD seeds@gtrseeds.com. Go to gtr seeds.com today and choose something revolutionary for your next indoor or outdoor run. Welcome back. You are listening to Shaping Fire. I am your host Chango Los and my guest today is Plant biologist Sarah Lane. So during the first set, we uh, looked at what exactly a route is and the jobs that it does, and some things we want to avoid if we want a thriving, uh, you know,

root zone. Um, here in the second set we're gonna talk more about the actual structure, which is what, what the topic that was the genesis of, uh, me asking Sarah to come back right away because during the exudate show, um, she got into this explanation about how um, the root structure is different in, uh, uh, coco choir and, um, Pete, um, non soil or soilless uh, containers than it is in living soil. And ugh, I wanted to go down that path. Um, but we just didn't have time then.

And so here we are today and we're gonna go down that in a lot of different ways. So, so Sarah, let, let's start at the top. When we, when we use the phrase root structure, what specifically do we mean? I think like when I think of root structure, I think about, um, the root ball itself, the different components that make up the root structure and how that differs between plants, whether that be cultivar or species or whatever.

And that's usually like how the different components might be arranged, whether they're present or absent. Um, all of that would be something I would call root structure. So in a typical cannabis plant, what would we expect the root structure to look like in soil? Like is there, you know, since, since in nature it's in soil, I'll say that the, the soil root structure is the air quote's more natural one just for the,

for the time being, just in case lemme get away with that. And, uh, and so what, what would we expect root structure to look like in soil, in the ground outside? Okay. Um, well, I mean we can stick with our beautiful cannabis plant. A nice big tap. Root goes straight down as far as it possibly can grow. Um, you can think of that like the vertical axis, I guess. Mm-hmm. . Um, and then from that all these lateral roots start to grow that kind of stick out

from the main root and they go sideways. So they're, they're trying to like increase the different places that the root can access. And then from there there might be even more little branches and more little branches. And then at the growing tip of the root, there's a little tiny zone there where there's a bunch of little root hairs that grow and they don't live for a hugely long time cuz that root is still moving

places and they, so maybe like a couple weeks. Um, but they're, they're so tiny we can barely see them with a naked eye and we definitely can't see how thin they are cuz they're a single cell wide. Um, but they, they would be just in like a little maybe, I don't know, a couple centimeters long zone right there and they would kind of bush out into the, into the soil.

When I see diagrams of root structures of different, um, types of plants, um, some of them go, you know, quickly really deep and some stay at the top and then some will throw down like a tap root and then, and then, and then the rest will stay at the stop at the top. What is the architecture of the, the,

the root system in an adult plant? Are, are they mostly up top where they can support the plant from falling over and, you know, get, uh, rainwater or with a cannabis plant, are they all making this mad dash for depth, uh, in order to create stability that way and get, you know, water that is in the soil or aquifer? Um, in, in cannabis plants, as we talked about this a little bit earlier, like if it's a clone it might not get as deep if we're talking about like in

soil mm-hmm. , uh, because it doesn't necessarily have that deep tap root to go driving down to the bottom. But in most cases like that tap root, it also anchors the plant as well. Cuz I mean, I don't know if you've ever tried to get up some of these weird little red carrot type weeds in your garden. You have to really yank on them, like that tap root's deep and that plant is not falling over for the most part.

So it does provide a lot of anchorage. Um, but I think like what we're talking about diagrams and things like that, that we find, like, I think most of the time it depends on species. So for cannabis it's, it's mostly gonna be on a tap root system that's going straight down and then it's there for water, for anchorage, for all these different things. But then all the lateral roots provide support for whatever that purpose is. So it's kind of digging in there, but also increasing absorption.

The deeper the tap root to the more likely it is to survive things like drought because it can access that groundwater layer. Whereas we find in a lot of plants, and here I'm not talking about cannabis specifically, but a lot of plants that make surface roots, it's actually a very nutrient rich layer of the soil where most of the organic matter sits. So a lot of the lateral roots above are meant to get nutrients, specifically.

They're not particularly good at getting water because there's not a lot of water usually in that layer. So earlier you mentioned that, um, in, um, in container plants, uh, clearly the cannabis taproot cannot go as deeply because it's gonna be stopped

by the bottom of the pot. Um, other than a taproot that doesn't go as deeply as it may, like what other root structure changes might we, uh, find in the, the lateral and other root structures when they are in a container versus when they are free flowing in the ground? I think mostly, I, I think I would have to say length. I haven't really dissected a, a like, you know, removed all the soil to have a look, but I would guess that because, um,

and I guess it does depend on the type of pot too. So for example, we use, uh, cloth sided pots and they're meant to be sort of like self pruning so we don't get like running roots mm-hmm. . Um, and so for us we would end up probably seeing more, and I'm speculating here, but I would expect to see more shorter lateral roots that are coming off that main tap root. Um, and, and they probably wouldn't grow as much, but there's probably more branching.

And by branching I mean like lateral and then these little roots branch off of that and some more roots branch off of that kind of exactly the way a tree looks on top. Mm-hmm. But below mm-hmm. . So what happens, what, you know, what are the effects of compaction on the root structure? Um, you know, we, we talked in the first set about, um, how in a, um, uh, a pot bo bound plant, how the, the roots run along the sides.

But I would think that as a plant is getting more and more root bound, that there are other, uh, changes, uh, that happen in the root zone to deal with that systemically. Yeah. I mean, when we, when we look at like root bound plants, like oftentimes there's just not that much soil. And, and I mean, I would expect the first thing would be just like the soil properties change,

so you don't have as much water retention. Um, there's not as many, um, like when we talk about things like cataract exchange and stuff like that, there might not be as many sites for that to happen. So that's basically the way that soil acts, like a little kitchen cupboard, if you will. Um, and there would be less kitchen cupboards available for nutrients to be

retrieved from. And so most of the time when we have a super root bound plant, it's just that there's not enough physical space and soil to support that much plant. Does that make sense? Yeah. I found that. So it's not so much that the root architecture itself may be changing, although it might, it's more just, it just can't support that much root in that little space.

And so then the systems will start happening, happening, um, in efficiently and it'll essentially just fall out of balance and your plant will get sick in one of many ways. Yeah. And it's usually like, I think the first thing I notice when, when plants are too root bound is like, it's just hard to keep them fed and watered. You have to water more often. Um, , I've had a couple of plants that have actually almost pushed through the bottom cause I haven't had a chance to get to them. So the, like,

they just kind of pushed the pot out of the way. Um, but it, it can get pretty bad and then you end up with a root ball that just can't sustain the amount of shoot growth that you have. Um, and then, and then the plant just ends up getting super deficient. And if we wanted to relate that to something like yield, I think your yield would be severely impacted cuz they just can't put that much nutrients towards the rest of the plant.

It's always a bad scene when you find the plant that you forgot to transplant and it's got all the roots that are coming out of the holes, the drainage holes, and you're like, oh baby, I'm so sorry I for, I didn't see you over there. And, and you know, sometimes you get lucky and it was sitting on something else and so now it's, it's rerouted itself in like the pot under it or something, you know? Yeah.

Which is, which is always interesting. But yeah, that's, that's, that's a bad day at the office when you find that you've neglected a plant that bad cuz you know you're gonna have to cut those roots and that's not gonna be a good day. I've gotten pretty adept at pulling those roots out of holes. Uhhuh, partly cuz of the way that I deal with my research plants. Um,

I need them to kind of do that. So, um, there's ways to untangle them very carefully, but, uh, but that does just go to show you how efficient plants are at seeking out nutrients. Like nothing in this pot, out we go, we're going somewhere and we don't know where it is, but it will find something somewhere to eat.

Yeah. And you know, that's a really good point, you know, for, for folks who are home growers who are, you know, growing two or four or 15 plants where every plant is important because they need to yield their medicine for themselves, um, you'll have a lot more time to kind of, you know, wiggle the plant back and forth and, you know, gingerly pull them up and try to save as many of those roots versus, you know, in a, in a scaled commercial or, you know,

medical environment where you've got, you know, a hundred or or a thousand plants where, you know, you're just gonna pull your, your knife and go, you know, cut, cut, cut and pull it out and transplant it. And, you know, that's a, that's a very different kind of, of, of cultivation. But it is interesting how, um, the same problem has to be solved different ways depending on the variety of cultivation that you're doing.

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's, it's something to mention too, like, like if you have the time to try and save the roots, I think it, it helps. We were talking earlier about like how much root to lose and that kind of stuff, but the actively growing roots are really the ones you want to try and save. So I do my absolute best cuz those little runners are probably the most active as they're trying to escape my poor little pot situation, .

So, so this next question is the one that, um, that was, that was spun off in, in episode 99 and the exudate. So, which is kind of the seed for this episode, which is, um, you know, Coco and Pete cultivation systems have become like really popular over the years and I, and I think still increasingly so, and you know, in the, in the beginning folks were using Cocoa Qu and Pete to supplement what we generally think of as living soil as a, as an aeration and water retention solution.

But nowadays people are just using cocoa and peat and they're not even using, um, you know, the living soil aspect. And then they are, then they are adding nutrition into these cocoa and peat pots with, um, you know, what, whatever, whatever kind of fertilizer they choose from, from compost tees to, to amendments, to, to bottled stuff. So there's,

there's a lot of options with these, these systems. And you had mentioned that, uh, root structure is going to be different in these types of pots and, and I'm super curious to hear what the differences are. I guess the, I guess when we think of root structure, we kind of have to back up and realize that the root structure's kind of dictated by the environment and the needs of the plant.

So like when we talk about whether plants make a lot of lateral roots or not, like they're gonna make lateral roots, but how many depends on things like nutrient availability or oxygen presence absence, that kind of thing. So in a soil that's very mixed up, there's like, when you mix a good soil, like you, it's gonna gonna be quote unquote homogenous to your eyes. You're gonna make sure that like the pearl lights in there evenly,

there's not a big clump and stuff like that. But on a, on like a microscopic level, it's not really, there's little pockets. And so that's gonna influence the plant because it has to move towards little areas of nutrients. Um, in a system where the nutrients are actually homogenous when we're watering it in and we're not necessarily providing any other source.

The plant's still gonna be moving around in there, um, but it might, it might need to act differently, um, because it, there d doesn't have that many different pockets in the, in the soil system. And I think hydroponics is the most extreme of that because we can, not only can we really see the roots to look at them, um, but there, there's just one place that all of these nutrients are, and they're evenly available.

So I would expect to see less branching and less root hairs and that kind of thing. That's interesting. So one of the, uh, one of the things we talk about in the show a lot is how in a, in a, in a, in a living soil with a good fungal environment that the fungus is, um, you know, creating channels for the water to seep through and for the, the roots to find their ways through.

And it would be my expectation that in cocoa and Pete systems, um, because there is less tiny particles of soil to fill in, in between that a cocoa and Pete system will have a lot more air pockets and, and, well, I'm not, don't want to dwell on the air part, but more like, um, paths, passages for the roots to follow.

Do, do you find that in cocoa and Pete systems, the, the roots are, are, are growing more willy-nilly because they have so many more options instead of the fewer options that you would find in a living soil system? I guess it depends. Like, I think, I think the more complex the soil system is, the more complex the roots become because they're just, uh, like I said, they have to go adventuring for all of the things that they need.

And it's not all immediately readily available. I feel like with aeration, for example, or like pockets like there, there's probably other things and whether you'd notice it if you just like pulled the two root systems up, like you might notice it if you count up the, all the lateral roots or if you, you know, measure the thickness of the root, it might might change, but it, I think it would be a lot of chemistry would change too. Does that make sense? Yeah, for sure. Does that answer.

Your question? Yeah, yeah. Um, and then, um, I'm gonna ask you a similar question, but with two different, uh, varieties. Uh, first will be, you know, a hydroponic version where there is, um, you know, there is some kind of cistern of water and you've got nutrients there and the roots are growing down into it. And, uh, I guess this would work for an earth box too, where the, the, the roots are sitting in the,

the nutrient water. Um, how will the roots grow differently in that kind of environment where they really don't have to travel at all to, um, access the nutrition? I think they'd probably grow down more. Um, the one thing that I've, I've noticed the most, at least in my own research, um, is that the root hairs are missing Mm. Because they're so fragile.

Um, and there might, like if you took out a microscope and did a little cross section and did some fancy staining, you might still see like the start of a root hair or the types of cells that could form a root hair. But when you actually look at roots that are grown in hydroponics, especially because there's a current and stuff like that, it doesn't really permit those super fragile structures from showing up.

At least not macroscopically. Like I can't see them with my eyes. Um, whereas like other systems, they probably would be present because they're not being disturbed as much. Do you think that that impacts the thriving nature of the plant or is it just like equal and different? I, I lean towards equal and different because the purpose of a root hair is to increase absorption.

And that's really important when we talk about like that super complex soil mixture, we were just discussing, um, where you might need the extra absorption because that little pocket of, of minerals is just a little too far away for the, the chemistry of the main route to help and just needs like a little finger to

go in there and collect it mm-hmm. . Um, whereas in an a hydroponic system, you're readily changing the nutrients over, you're readily providing it with what it needs, and it doesn't necessarily like it. A a regular root tip might be totally fine for absorbing what's there. Mm-hmm. I follow. So the last one I want to talk about is aeroponics. And um, you know, there are certainly not very many of us cultivating cannabis who have got adult

plants that are using aeroponics. Um, however, um, it's incredibly common for folks to use aeroponic, uh, cls at the beginning of a plant's life. Um, so my question again is, uh, um, when the plant is hanging but it is suspended and it's not in, it's not, you know, actually submerged in the nutrient water, it's actually being sprayed with fine mist. Um, how does that impact the root structure? Um, like for me, I use even finer mist. I use fog and I notice, uh, quite a big difference. Like,

like the plant just doesn't need to go down as much. Um, and I don't have empirical evidence that it's like, particularly long or short, but for, for my plants in aeroponics, I find they kind of, they're pretty bushy. Mm-hmm. . Um, and those root hairs are retained.

That's the big thing that I noticed there because the fog is so gentle, it's just like a little air current and you can actually see the, the root hairs come out, but they also last longer cuz they're not getting moved around in the soil or like used up. Um, and so they do seem to increase absorption. It kind of makes sense when you're dealing with a very gentle fog or mist because it, it's not, it's not as evenly distributed as a liquid would be cuz it's relying on air

currents to, for delivery. Um, so I think the root hairs, they tend to stay longer and they're more important in, um, in aeroponics there. I think if you're spraying like, cuz you know, like the grocery store, high pressure aeroponics that keeps your lettuce wet. Yeah. Mm-hmm. , um, that mist might be enough to change the root hairs depending on how fragile they are and what, you know, again, cultivar species, whatever, um, differences you want to talk about, um,

if it's being spread directly at the root, you might see less root hairs. Um, but if it's being sprayed into the chamber to increase the humidity, you might, you might again see more root hairs. Um, something that's a big notice noticeable difference for me. Yeah. Right. On the, the, the, the root structure in fog p cannabis plants is really incredible.

Um, it, it really looks unlike anything else. And, and you're right, it does look like, you know, this, this, this more compact shrubbery with, with all the, these fine,

uh, fine hairs. Um, it, it does look like its own animal. Mm-hmm. , do you have any suggestions for folks who are, are starting their clones in an arrow cloer, but their plan is to move them into a, a cocoa peat or a, um, a living soil system because the, the root system that they have when they're being moved is not designed for that environment. Maybe you'll tell me it doesn't matter, but, uh, I want to address that one way or another.

I think it does. We, uh, we kind of experienced similar issues when you're transferring from tissue culture two, because it's a very specific environment that the root has been growing in. It's got a certain weight to it, it's got a certain, um, water content, all these different things that can happen that at the root surface that it can sense that's gonna be very different whether it's gel or air or water or whatever you are using compared to the soil.

And so my my suggestion would be that, you know, most of the times we fill a pot and then we dig a little hole and we put our plant in it. My general suggestion would be, don't do that, fill a little bit and then just kind of hold the plant up and sort of like gently fill it in that way so it can kind of retain that structure a bit more.

Mm. Mm-hmm. , you still have to be careful with like large air pockets, you're gonna have to gently press down, but I, I think that that would probably preserve the structure a little better than just kind of s smushing it in there, don't jam. It in there, don't let it, let it hang of its own accord and then fill it around it. Yeah. Yeah. I think that would, that would be the best way I think to preserve that very delicate sort of structure. And I don't have, again, like this is speculation.

I think it should provide the roots and support as you're filling it in. Um, and I think it would cause less damage, but it's still going to experience some differences compared to what it was growing in. So you might still see some damage, um, just, just because it's not as wet or it's having to adjust the type of nutrient acquisition it's doing, like those kind of things. But hopefully that way the root architecture is preserved.

And I know that's something I do with T culture is I like, I'll fill the pot three quarters full and then I'll just kind of try and like fill in around it so that the route's kind of supported from below before I start squishing it down. All right. So, um, let's talk about, um, uh, comparing a couple of these different, um, uh,

substrates as far as microbial life interaction goes. So in soil, most cultivators are looking for complex microbe systems so that the plant thrives and is pest free and has a complex terpene profile. Um, and that happens because there is this burgeoning community of life in the root zone in TheraSphere. Um, however, in in cocoa and Pete and in hydroponics we're, we're, we're pouring nutrition and in many cases we're pouring microbes in,

uh, to the root zone. But, uh, because there is not an established soil community, I I kind of get the idea that they're kind of, anything that we add is just passing through. Um, because there isn't, uh, a system to sustain life in those other non soil

environments. So, um, how, how does this impact the experience of the roots to thrive and to bring nutrition that the added microbes and nutrition are not, I guess I'll say residents of the substrate, but more that we're, we're pouring it in and it's there for a little while and then they're gone and then the roots are waiting for us as the human to add more? Yes. So I guess I'll answer that in a couple parts.

First supplementation of microbes. Um, it's, it's sort of a spicy take, but I don't love the addition of that kind of stuff because as you say, it is very transient. And most of the times that we're like, when we talk about building a living soil and we're adding like, like my, or, um, like bacterial, I think bacterial is the easiest to get started with. And because they grow so quickly and they have such a quick life cycle, it might do better,

but most of that is relying on the fact that it's going to stay put. Mm-hmm. , um, in particular my, because like the microrisal structure that actually provides benefit to the plant includes like hifa, which are basically little fungal roots that, that need time to grow. They're very fragile. They're even,

they're even this thin, maybe even thinner than a root hair. Like they, if you start moving them around, um, and this is something, I don't know if you've heard of no-till, but it's one of the main reasons why people try not to till their soil mm-hmm. because you're actually disrupting all those little fungal roots.

Um, and I don't see that that's really going to be something that can form properly in something like hydroponics where there's current and in the same way that the root hairs don't form, I would not expect to see fungal hye form, at least not to the extent that where they're helpful. Um, bacteria a little different because again, they can, they can still colonize kind of on the surface of the plant root, but their main job in a, in a soil system is to help break down nutrients.

And some of the stuff we were talking earlier, like provide protection and stuff, and they're just going to be more limited. Um, as far as like how that fits into, I think it's probably easier to get that started in peat, but as you say, when we're watering it through and we're not really providing for the bacterial or microrisal community as well, they're not really getting set up there before you're adding something different

and you're just pouring more stuff in there. Does that enter your question?

Yeah, it does. And um, it would make me think then that, um, without the, the constant access to the resident microbes in nutrition as you described it, and, and instead, um, it's just going to be there when I add it, that, um, you know, you might, you might still get perfectly fine cannabis plants, but there's some percentage of, of thriving or, or in our case with the cannabis plant specifically, um, yield and, uh, and terpene profile that you might experience a little less in these

mediums where we have to, um, add the nutrition through a cocoa p or hydro system. Whereas in living soils, it's there. Um, would you agree with that assessment that those, those plants will be perfectly fine and people have great success with them, but, but there's, there's, there's some percentage that's more than zero that would be benefited by the living soil approach. I, like I am, I'm heavily biased towards living soil. I think it's like such a, such a fantastic,

like build an ecosystem from the ground up and let your plant live in it. Um, I think we've talked about this before, maybe on the, the last time I was here, where I certainly believe that there is a shift, like each growing method that you use does something a little bit different to your plants. And it depends when we're talking about like, um, like terpene profiles and stuff like that, there definitely is a difference when you, when you grow in living soil versus when you grow in hydroponics,

when you stress them out, when you don't. Like we, we know we can influence these terpene profiles depending on what we do to the plant. So I don't know if that necessarily makes it better or worse, but when we talk about things like bacteria and add adding mycorrhiza, I think you really have to ask yourself why you're adding it. Because when we're going to hydroponics and aeroponics, uh, we're providing pretty much everything the plant needs to put on weight as far as yield goes.

Like we're providing it nitrogen and minerals and phosphorus and, you know, all these little things to, to help it out. It might not be as good at defending itself from disease, um, or something like that that might be benefited by a living soil, but like, for just making flowers grow, it'll be perfectly fine. Um, but that's why when you're adding it to a hydroponic system, I don't know that it always is doing the thing that people think it should be doing, if that makes sense.

Yeah, it does make sense. All right. So to, to wrap up this, uh, second set, um, I'd like to get you to weigh in on, um, um, pot variety, um, plastic pots versus fabric pots. Um, you know, a lot of people were happy to move on from the plastic pots, um, because, you know, a, they they get hot if you live somewhere hot because they're black. Uh, uh, b you know, they don't breathe if that is an advantage. Uh, c it can get kind of swampy in there if you tend to over water or if you don't

have a good, uh, soil structure. Um, versus the, the air pots, which, uh, excuse me, the fabric pots and air pots I guess where they, they talk all the time about how, uh, the roots are air pruned along the side and, um, you know, there can be more oxygen exchange, but I don't really know that air pruning along the side of a fabric pot, um, or more air exchange with the pot are necessarily good things. I, I don't, I, I know they claim them to be good things, but I, I don't know that to be true.

It does seem that the plastic pots would be more akin to, to actually being grown in soil, but I don't know that, so I would like to hear you compare the two. Okay. Well, um, I guess for starters, I do tend to use air pots or, or fabric pots. Um, but it's, it's sort of a combination. So if we think about the whole oxygen air thing, we do actually need soil to be rated. Most of the beneficial microbes that we're talking about today are, um, they're requiring oxygen just like everything else is.

And in on the opposite hand, we have a lot of bacteria that are not healthy that grow in anaerobic or like oxygen free areas. So when it comes to extra oxygen, I'm, I'm all for that. It sort of prevents, I mean, there's still other husbandry things that you would want to consider, but in my opinion, it, it helps prevent things like pythium and stuff like that from really taking root mm-hmm. , um, and like air pruning and stuff like that, it changes the root structure.

I'm not a hundred percent sure if it's for the better or if the worse, but it does seem to do a pretty good job of growing with mother plants and stuff like that. I will say they are paint water because um, the water just kind of leaks out the sides. Yeah. So you still have to have like a plastic saucer underneath and they don't, there's definitely things that I don't absolutely enjoy a hundred percent about

them. When we look at like a hard wall plastic pot, um, I think you do like, if they're definitely easier to water and they definitely retain, um, they don't dry out as, as quickly I guess. Um, so you can put water in there, it's not evaporating out the sides. Um, so that the whole root ball, it might be easier to control for water moisture if you don't water as often

or something like that. Um, and again, I think there's other husbandry issues that you, that you'd also have to look into as far as whether that necessarily makes the growth of bad bacteria easier or not. That often has to do with the type of soil you have too. So I don't know if it's directly relatable, um, but I feel more comfortable in, in the, in the fabric pots.

And one way to get around the miserable watering situation is to, um, use like drip emitters or something like that where your soil is more constantly, um, wet, which is actually, especially for living soil better because a lot of the microbes need to be wet constantly too. So as far as living soil goes, my personal preference would be fabric pots. Right. On. Thank you. That's great analysis. Um, I use the fabric pots as well and there was one thing that I learned about them

that that really annoyed me. I still continue to use them, but I, I didn't like this fact figuring it out. Um, I was, I was talking with uh, uh, uh, Josh from Dragonfly Earth Medicine about them and about how, how I, I, you know, I, I like using fabric pots versus plastic pots so that there's, you know, I'm using less, uh, plastic. And, uh, he had the audacity to point out that even though we're using the term fabric pots, that um,

nearly all of them on the market are spun plastic mm-hmm. . Yeah. And I looked into it and dammit, he's right. And so Yep. They're, they're plastic pots just in a different form. And so, um, that fact pissed me off. And so I went and I, and I, I, I intentionally purchased actual hemp pots and they degraded and fell apart in one season. And I'm. Like, they do. Yes. I'm like. Well damn. The biology of it, um, makes the spun plastic, I guess,

at least necessary for the time being until we've got another material. But, um, yeah, me thinking that air quotes fabric pots were some kind of linen was like totally wrong. No, and I think a lot of, um, I think you're probably not alone because I think a lot of us are trying to use less plastic and that kind of stuff. And I don't necessarily think that fabric pots will mean less plastic cuz it's basically like wearing a polyester shirt or something like that.

There's definitely some plastic in there, but as you say, any of the natural fibers tend to disintegrate very quickly. Um, so like felt or spun or whatever. You're, you're gonna, the, the more natural and less plastic you go, the more often you have to replace them. I, I, which isn't really a big deal, I guess when you wanna like transplant into a field or something, you probably, like if they degrade in a couple of months of, you know, watering,

they're probably okay . But. What I hate though is the idea of my, uh, spun plastic fabric pots that are outside. And once I learned that as they degrade over the years, they are very likely shedding microplastics mm-hmm. into my farm's ecosystem mm-hmm. . And, uh, that was very disappointing to me. And so I don't have a solution for it, but I think that, I think that it's important for us all to be aware of, of, of the truth of it.

Absolutely. And I think that goes to like, like when we're choosing things to have a preference over, like I think when you choose a fabric pot because you aren't necessarily saving the plastic. Um, and I don't think in a hard wall plastic, like, especially cuz you're putting acidic fertilizer and things like that through, you're breaking that plastic down too. So I, it's, it's a trade off more about is it providing you the right, right.

Growing environment for your method and then make your choice based on that. Because fabric pot, certainly, in my opinion anyway, support living soil better when you get them going. Um, but I mean, a hard wall plastic is totally fine too. Right. On. Cool. All right. Let's go ahead and take, uh, our second short break and be right back. You are listening to Shaping Fire and my guest today is Plant biologist Sarah Lane.

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So here we are in set three for the big finish. Um, what we're gonna focus on this set is, is the, you know, the care and feeding of a good and thriving root system because, you know, it's one thing for us to understand what root structure is and what the, what the root system is doing. Um, but we as cultivators, we wanna make it as as healthy and happy as we can. So, um, so Sarah,

let's talk about how much to water. Um, what should our considerations be across the various substrate systems we have discussed today to make sure that we're, we're watering in a zone that is enough for the root system, but not enough to drown it? Well, that's a good question. So I think the first and foremost things is that roots do not like to dry out. So you wanna keep making sure that the soil is wet and that the roots, the root ball itself is, is nice and at least damp.

Obviously overwatering is a problem because the roots then can't breathe. They're kind of like drowning if you will. Um, and, and that's a problem. So, but it depends on the substrate of what this looks like. For example, in hydroponics they're kind of always sitting in water and there it's more important to make sure that the, the liquid is aerated properly. So it's not stagnant. In aeroponics, this is almost never a problem.

You just wanna make sure that the spray is happening often enough that the roots are not drying out while they're waiting cuz it's not usually a constant thing. And then in soils we wanna usually, um, when I'm watering, I lift my pot up a little bit and as it starts to get lighter and lighter, you know, that the water's evaporating and then before it has a chance to get too dry, um, then you water again. And with living soil, um, systems, it's even more important that it stays damp.

So if the surface of the soil starts to dry out too much, it, it isn't that healthy for that system. So then I, I would, I would check probably daily or every couple of days to make sure that the, that top layer is staying at least damped to the touch. And another re that, that's another good reason to use some kind of, uh, uh, uh, small plant cover crop of some sort to, uh, keep the top of the pot, um, moist so it doesn't go hydrophobic and push the water off and uh,

and, and helps the water get into the pot. I would think also that cover crops, um, would be helpful because the roots of the cover crop, um, also interact with the roots of the cannabis plant and um, you know, they communicate and share resources, right? Absolutely. And cover crops are an excellent, um, especially if you're working in a soil system, they can be super beneficial not only to to keep the water in cuz it's not

getting lost and evaporating as much. Um, but also as you say, because those roots are, are providing like a little layer of, of support and networking, if you are careful about what you choose, you can also be contributing nitrogen. For example, we often plant like micro clover, um, or red clover in our pods because it does kind of give back to the, the system as opposed to some cover crops where it would also be using up nutrients.

I'm forgetting the, the, the vocabulary word for it. But, um, there are certain plants that, uh, you can, uh, uh, plant as a companion plant that actually do, does the other plant harm. Um, are you aware of any plants where the, the roots of that plant actually are combative against ca uh, cannabis roots? Um, off the top of my head, I'm not a hundred percent sure. I, I know some like classic, I think what you're referring to is a allopathy. Yes.

Um, and there's like definitely some plants that are just like absolute no toxic, but they're like big trees. Like you never plant anything under black walnut. It's like a circle of death, but you're obviously not planting that next to a cannabis tree. I think if you're worried about it sticking strictly to things like,

like clover. Um, and some of the, like if you go to a farm supply store, they often have good cover crops there and those plants usually are com compatible with a lot of other plants. I don't know anything off the top of my head that, that I would want to put in a pot that would do that, but yeah. Yeah, stick with the basics unless you're choosing to research it first, essentially. Basically. And like there's lots of, lots of great op uh, like options.

We do marigold. You can do, um, like basil, you can do like some, some types of herbs are pretty good in there. Um, Basil's really good basil and marigold both are good too because, um, they can be planted in with your cannabis plant, but they also act as like an insect trap because, um, like everything loves basil. So if you plant a basil plant, you're probably getting first signs of bugs will show up there. So they can be kind of useful that way. And of course,

like the clover is a really good one too. I've. Gotten into the habit of, of throwing, um, different types of food producing plants in my pots. Mm-hmm. , I, uh, I, I toured, um, uh, a farm where they were growing potatoes under their, their plants outside in their, in, in the kind of, um, the duff berm that they were doing out there at Green Source Gardens. And uh, I thought that was such a great idea, but like, you know,

we have to be in containers, uh, where we are. So, so, you know, I, I got strawberries grown in one, I got carrots grown in another perfect, got like culinary herbs in another. And uh, and you know, you get, you get that wind from the cover crop, but also, you know, if, if you get hungry out when you're working in the field, you have snacks, so a little snack. That's great. Totally. Right on. So, um, how impactful is the pH of the water that we're watering with on the root system?

Um, I think that depends on the soil. I, I it's so the pH of water, that's one of the things that preferentially kicks off nutrients. And so the more acidic the water, I think the more nutrients you might kick off. What does kickoff mean? Um. So I guess if we wanna talk about the soil as like essentially a kitchen cupboard, all these structures that you see with your naked eye on the soil have all these little charges on them that, that sort of collect all the nutrient salts that you're adding,

whether that's because a bacteria's broken it down or not. As I said earlier, everything is basically salt at the end of the day mm-hmm. . Um, but it stays there until something would prefer to be in its spot more. And that's usually, um, acidity. So it will, it will take its place on that soil structure and because it takes the place, then that nutrient is free and it can go back into the water. Does that make sense? It does. So then that once that ion is, or salt is free,

then the plant can use it. And so the plant actually does it itself. It makes acids to go out into the soil and to kick off all the nutrients off the soil so that it can take them up. And if you are watering in a ci like an acidic, um, like liquid, even if it's just like water itself or whether you've added like citric acid or something like that, you're gonna be doing the same thing the plant is doing. But you can do that in excess where it, it would be too much. Um,

but the soil kind of buffers itself too. So it's one of those things where on a, on a, like a, a big level, I'm not sure it's that impactful, but that's what's happening on a small scale. Mm-hmm. .

So, um, so as far as like what we can learn from this, it sounds like, you know, un unless your water is, uh, making a significant swing, um, that, uh, the buffering of the soil and if you're generally trying to stay near neutral anyway, um, the watering that you're doing is not really all that impactful on the roots on the pH level because it's the, the system is more or less going to self-regulate so long as there isn't something like really wild happening.

Yeah, pretty much. And I will, I will put the caveat in there that, um, hydroponics is a little bit different and I've heard multiple opinions about whether to pH your hydroponic feed or not. I personally do. Um, because it, it's hard to, especially over time, it's hard to tell what, um, the soil or whatever medium you're watering into has retained. And so making sure that your, your nutrients are the, the pH they should be at before they go in sort of helps if your soil's at a

whack. Um, but that's, some people don't and they seem to find it works fine. So again, it it might just be like, like we were talking about earlier, all these things that we do cuz someone else told us to do it . Yeah, totally. Um, it might not matter in the end. Right. On, let's talk about temperature. So there's a lot of different variables that can impact the temperature of the substrate in the container. Uh, this isn't something that we need to worry about in soil because geothermal

takes care of any plants that are actually in the ground. But, um, you know, uh, uh, uh, dark colored pots are, are going to, uh, attract and hold, uh, more of the sun's heat. Um, we've got, uh, greenhouses and, and tents outside that can, uh, get exceptionally hot on on really hot days e even if we are,

have got fans in them. And, uh, I run into this on my, on my deck because, uh, the, the, the hours right before the sun goes down my deck will get up to, you know, ninety five, a hundred and fifteen like way up there on a hot day. And, and, and any plants that I have on my deck will just, will just cook. I, I just imagine the, the root zones just like turning to mush. So, um, I'm, I'm sure that there is a range though where, um, you know,

the temperature of the root zone is optimum. So would, would you kind of talk about what temperature range makes sense for the root zone? And I don't know, I guess, I guess the only way we would know on a hot day would be to actually throw a probe in there. Yeah, so I guess the first part I would mention is soil's kind of insulating. Um, and again, this kind of goes back to your growing method.

Like if you're a bear root ball hanging in hydroponics, that's gonna be way more important, um, on, on a deck or something like that. Like I think the same range that you'd expect the plant to grow in. So like 30 or I, I guess I'm in Celsius. Um, I think like around like a mild spring summer day would be fine. Obviously if you're getting up to really, really hot summer days,

you're gonna start seeing some effects. But the soil does buffer it, it both hangs onto heat but also protects it a little bit. And most of the time when we're looking at, I guess the second part is when we're looking at heat stress on a plant, most of what's happening is water. So the heat is, is causing them to photosynthesize more. Um, they're losing more water because that's a direct part of photosynthesis is to

lose water. Um, and because it's happening at a faster rate in heat and, and they're also getting cooked at the same time, so their leaves are kind of not happy. Um, it can put a lot of water stress on a plant, so that's why you might see wilting or burning or those kind of things. And so if it's a hot day, I think the best way to keep the insulating properties of the soil would just be to water more because the water's gonna take up some time to, to properly heat up.

It's also gonna be providing for the fact that the leaves are transpiring more and it's gonna keep the roots a little cooler.

On hot days like this, it's kind of generally accepted that it's better to, uh, water more times less water during a hot day because, um, you don't wanna say, oh, it's a hot day, I'm gonna water more and just go with more volume because now not only is the plant trying to take up water, but you've kind of like in, you know, um, flooded the substrate and, and it's, it there, there's like almost too much water and it has to,

it has to deal with moving the water around at the same time it's trying to take on water. Would you agree with that best practice that, you know, instead of doing your same two waterings a day, but you know, make them larger in volume instead, you know, do the, do maybe even less than you would on a normal day, but break it up into maybe four waterings?

I feel like there's a couple options there because usually when I'm dealing with plants that are outside that are like, it's a heat dome or whatever, um, I water more in early morning when it's not hot so that the plant can, I guess if you wanna call it water balance, like then it's not already water stressed when the heat hits mm-hmm. . And then I probably would check more because I, I don't know if, if you, like, if it's best practices and people tend to follow that rule, um,

far be it for me to go against that. Um, but I do think that it's less about like the volume of water, I think. I think especially in pots, there's only so much water that you can put in there per soil amount, um, but it evaporates really fast.

So I would say that it's better to water more frequently and then maybe you don't have to add as much water, but like in a pot on a, on a patio, there's only so much water that can fit in there and it's not gonna be enough to keep it like cool throughout the whole day.

And, and the amount of water is probably gonna also change about whether or not you're in a hard walled plastic or if you are in a fabric pot too, because those fabric pots, they just get all hot and they, they start to, you know, lose water out the sides pretty fast.

So fast. Yeah. And then like in a garden for example, I think because of just how much soil there is, like if you're, if you're in, in soil in the ground, like a good watering first thing in the morning before it actually gets really, really hot, you might have to check out on that partway through the day hard wall like I was mentioning. But yeah, absolutely for fabric uts because they evaporate out the sides as well, they're just not gonna retain as much, um, as much water. So Yeah.

And in which case, like you're gonna be watering again in two hours anyway. You don't need to flood the board thing. . Um, right on. Um, let's talk a little bit about, um, uh, supplements. You know, there are, there are different types of fungal supplements that are sold that people say to, um, you know, uh, mix into your soil so that when you transplant a pot, the the roots will interact with the, um, with the supplemented, uh, fungi and will support root growth.

You know, essentially the, the, the, the, the connection with the, um, between the root hair and the supplement will wake up the supplement and, and that that fungal presence will, will ease the transition, um, of the plant. Um, do you see that happening and and does that kind of support make sense? I think it does to a certain extent, but it depends, like we were talking earlier about the system that you're coming from and into.

So it does take some time if we're talking about like microrisal inoculum or something like that mm-hmm. , it does take time for that process to happen because like I was alluding to earlier, it's a conversation between this fungus that's trying to help out and needs the plant and the plant which has to prepare itself to accept the fungus. So it,

it can be helpful to get that going early. Um, but it really only makes sense, especially for fungus, I would say, if you're going to then put it into a pot where it's not gonna be disturbed or into the garden where it's not gonna be disturbed. And I also think it depends on the health of the system you're planting into.

Like in a pot, we have good control over compost and stuff like that, but it's a real old garden remedy to put a little extra stuff in there when you transplant into, um, maybe not as rich of a soil or something like that to give it a kickstart. Mm-hmm. . And I would say if you're doing that with inoculum two and you're not confident that the health of the soil you're planting into is, is that great then I'm sure that would give it a little boost.

And with bacteria, I think bacteria are a little bit, a little bit more broad because they, again, they don't, they don't have those like root type structures like the hfe, um, they don't have that hye like the fungus do, so they're more likely to just kind of build up a little film somewhere. And that's probably easier to water in, in different systems or more systems. It might apply to more systems. But, um, I think there's, there's no harm in trying, I just, again,

some systems are just not that set up to support it afterwards. Mm-hmm. . In the first set, you, you mentioned, uh, uh, two or three different simple ties that you like to use, um, uh, for nutrition for the root zone. I was curious whether or not you have any of those simple recipes, uh, for beneficial bacteria to improve the root growth? Because you've mentioned beneficial bacteria a couple different times as playing, uh, you know, an important role of, uh, both helping the, the roots thrive,

but also breaking down nutrition for the entirety of the root zone. Um, I, I don't know if there is such a thing, I'm just kind of fishing here, but, but do you have a beneficial bacteria prep that can be, uh, poured into the pot and, and will help out?

Yeah, I think, um, I think there's a bunch of good recipes online, but what we often do, um, and what we do actually in research about, um, uh, beneficial bacteria and how it helps the root is to take soil or a compost that's already full of all the microbes you need, um, and then put it into some very well aerated water.

Um, and then you can add a sugar source of some kind, depending, I know people talk a lot and this is also very, I guess, veers into sort of compost literature, but you can get like green compost and brown compost and those will have different types of microbial communities in them. Um, and so you can, you can be pretty confident that if you're taking a sample from a healthy soil and providing it food like a sugar source, that you're gonna get a lot of beneficial organisms including beneficial

bacteria. So that's usually what we do with like a good couple of composts, a little bit of molasses like I was saying earlier. Um, and then some, something for it to nibble on, like leaves or like I was talking about earlier, brack infer and stuff like that. And depending on the ratio, you're gonna get different stuff.

Now are you talking about a, a brood compost tea in that and that, uh, point cuz uh, the, the de the delineation I'm trying to make is, um, uh, you know, adding molasses to, um, a, a compost brewer if you are going to let it run for, you know, 36 hours or something. And so you're going to incubate those microbes or in this case bacteria that we want. Um, and then, and then um, root drench that into the pot. That's one use of molasses. But then I also have been hearing folks talk about, oh,

I want to feed my microbes. And so they're, they're pouring, you know, molasses or a water molasses slurry into the pot directly, which that sounds super scary and unbalancing to me versus in the first example, we're going to add enough molasses that's going to feed the, the microbe and bacteria communities and then we're going to pour it in the pot, which is going to decrease the, I don't know, hotness, if you will, of the molasses.

Yeah, I guess, I guess like I, I just assumed we were talking about culture, um, which is my bad, I should have, I should have clarified. Um, when I use compost tea, my idea is usually based off of, um, and I know a lot of people do this too, that you're taking a small amount of something and trying to encourage growth of that something into a supplement. Um, you can just water in compost water and it will do just fine and it might take a

little longer. But remembering that a lot of these bacteria and fungus, like they eat the stuff that's already in your soil. So like, rather than add molasses, you could probably add leaflet, litter or compost or something like that to help them. Um, cuz that's what they're eating at the end of the day. So when I'm talking about molasses and aerated teas, I'm definitely talking about a brewing tea where you're trying to grow microbes for watering in later. Great.

I just wanted to make that delineation really sharp since we talk about both aerated compost tees and then compost extracts. Right. Which won't be aerated and um, I don't want anybody to get those confused and just like, you know, freebase molasses into their pot, you know, totally fair because it happens unfortunately. I I and then, and, and then, and then they get a decent plant and then, then now they swear by it. Right? And it's like, oh, but that's, that's dangerous. So.

Oh yeah. And like superstition, you, you, you know, you have the things that make you work and, and like if, if it worked for you, you're much less likely to not do exactly what you just did because it did already work for you. And there isn't really any harm in watering compost in, cuz it's already got all these nutrients. If anything you're just freeing up the loose nutrients that were already free in the compost and watering them through your soil column. And then,

and then you also have all those little microbes that come with. So if, if you don't have an aerated compost setup, um, for brewing compost teas, you can certainly just take a couple of handfuls of compost, put it on top and water through and it'll do the same thing. It might just take a little longer cuz you haven't encouraged that, the growth of those microbes in the same way. I don't know about the sugar. I, I tend to agree with the, like it might be,

it might get things a little toasty in there. Yeah. . Right on. So before I go to the, the last question, um, of our chat, um, I wanna just throw a wide net here. Um, uh, is there anything else that we haven't talked about today that can be done, uh, to support, um, healthy root life and root growth? Um, this is, I just wanna mop up any other best practices that I may not have known to ask you, but you, because, um, because you are rudely , uh,

you, you, you might know. So is there, is there anything else that you, uh, would suggest or recommend? I think, I think we've kind of covered a lot of areas that I would talk about with root health, but I think one big one is like trying to avoid disturbing the root system and, and really going for some sort of balance because I feel like we often just kind of manhandle them. They're this mysterious thing under there that we don't really think about.

And if you're gonna go for a healthy plant, you need both a healthy top half and bottom half. So being gentle with them trying to, trying to think about the different things that you can do to support them, especially the watering part. Um, we don't want stressed out routes, so making sure that you're keeping them wet and able to do their job.

I think that's a big one. Um, but I think, I think all the things we've talked about today are good ways to try and promote root health, but at the end of the day it's up to the plant and you can usually tell if the top half is healthy, the bottom half is probably pretty good too. Right on. It does seem like, you know, we keep on coming back to the thing that our cans plants like, uh,

the most is balance and consistency, right? Mm-hmm. , if, if you can go slow and steady a, you know, do the same thing every day and try to keep it a consistent environment, um, while that is so hard, you know, based on our different bio regions, it it is the name of the game.

Absolutely. And especially, I guess the other thing I would mention is we focus very much, especially on a plant like cannabis where we have an end yield that we're really interested in that it's, you still have to respect the process of growing it and making sure that the whole plant is healthy. Cuz at the end of the day that one little part of the plant you're concerned about relies on all of the rest of the plant to grow properly and in the way that we want. So don't neglect your roots. Yeah.

Amen. Right on. All right, so for this, this last question, it's, it's fun. It is, it is still a root question, but it's coming from a totally different direction. So, um, all the way back, like, I don't know, four, four or five years ago or so on, uh, shaping fire, episode 26, um, I interviewed your neighbor up there in, uh, bc, Natasha Riz. Uh, are you, are you familiar with Natasha? I am. Oh, fantastic. We had quite a few nice dinners together. .

Excellent. Well, we like her too. And, um, and, and we had her on the show to talk about root ball medicine because the cannabis roots are filled with, um, all sorts of cannabis, uh, um, biochemicals, I, I'll guess I'll say, um, that do things like, uh, um, uh, reduce inflammation and, and, and other things that we tend to use the tops of the cannabis plant for.

And, and there are these biochemicals like there's, there's triterpenes in there and the one that most people focus on is Frieden, F r I E D e L I N, for anybody who that's new. But then there's also a whole bunch of other ones,

which I could totally butcher the names of. But the, the point I wanna get to is that, um, uh, since that show I have had audience folks from across the country reach out to me and say, Hey, we've started making these tinctures and solves from the cannabis root zone and we're getting really good, um, effects from them, but we wanna know how to grow roots that have gotten more of these various steriles and alkaloids and triterpenes and these, these these useful delicious medicinal biochemicals.

And they ask me, what can I do for the plant so that, so that my roots are more rich with these, these, these target, um, you know, biologicals. And, you know, I don't have an answer for that except to say, you know, a thriving plant will probably produce more of those. Like it does more resin and more terpenes, but like, I don't know, like I just made, I just made that up. I've just given my best educated guess. Right. Um, but um, this is so similar to the kind of research that you're doing.

I'm wondering if you have a more educated guess. I actually love this question. I think that, um, like my, my work, uh, at UIC is very focused on trying to use plants like plant processes that the plant already performs, um, to try and find things that are medicinal about it. Um, and this kind of does exactly that.

So when we think of the different types of molecules that we find medicinal in a plant, they often have some sort of what we call, uh, broadly bioactivity, which just means that it has some sort of job that it can do in a biological system. And like a common example of that might be like an antibiotic. Like if we take it, we get rid infection, hooray. And it's usually from something that is also trying to fight off an infection.

So a lot of our antibiotics might be from derived from a bacteria that was trying to fight off another bacteria. We found that it worked, so we use it. Same with antifungals and things like that. So my work is mostly trying to decide, okay, if this is something that plants already make these molecules for, what if we stress them out a little bit in this way? So for example, if you wanted an antibiotic, then you maybe give it a little bit of an infection or something like that

because then it might make more of that antibiotic for you. Um, I don't know how this translates to root medicine necessarily because a lot of these things we don't fully understand, um, what they do. Like we know that when we take them, they have a lot of medicinal aspects and especially with cannabinoids, they have so many different, um, things that they do for us that they've, like, they've been all sorts of different things that we have found out about them.

Um, but a lot of those aren't things that plants do, right? Mm-hmm. , like they don't like for anti-seizure, for example, like plants don't have seizures, so we can't make them have a seizure to make more of that. But for some of these things, like that molecule you were just talking about, if it has an antifungal activity or something like that, then then maybe a plant that has a fungal um, problem might be good.

And then the other thing would be we don't want plants that are too stressed out though, because it still needs to have energy to fight off whatever you're, you're giving it. Um, so it might be something where you can, um, just expose it to any bacteria, like maybe a compost tea and maybe it has some friends and maybe some not so friendly bacteria in the compost tea.

And maybe that will stimulate it to make a little something extra. And I'm, I'm just gonna put the caveat that I'm not telling you to go out and like try and make your plant super sick or anything . Dump fusarium in 'em or something, right? Yeah. Please don't do that. Um, but there's ways that we can, same with our own bodies, like, um, being exposed outside and, and those kind of things or eating organic foods that have things on them and

those kind of things. Like we know that, um, that if we're too sterile, our systems aren't happy. So maybe the suggestion would be to just, um, feed them some compost teas and some of the stuff that we've been talking about today, um, so that the roots are not only healthy but also are interacting with other organisms. And then maybe that will stimulate more of a response. Just a guess. Yeah.

Yeah. I like that guess. Um, and while you were saying that, I thought maybe, maybe we could get that from, from watering in some non-local indigenous microorganisms, right? I mean, we talk about IMOs all the time and how much we love them and, and how, how helpful it is to use localized ones. Well, well maybe if we were to, to to use some I m o from a different environment, since that will have a whole bunch of strangers to this environment mm-hmm.

, maybe you can get a similar, uh, defensive, medicinal capability, um, without having to go so far as to, you know, actually cause uh, damage to the root zone. Just, just threaten it. Yeah. And like, this might even be like we, we know that microbial communities are pretty local and like even maybe local to your garden versus like across the street, down the hall. So maybe it's just as simple as like if you live next to a bunch of oak trees and your friend lives next to a bunch of pine trees,

maybe you just get some soil from there and water it in. Right. On. Cool. Well thanks, thanks for going down that theoretical line with me just because, um, you know, you're, you're, you're my root expert and I mean, I know I'm gonna be getting this question more and so at least I've got, you know, more to say even though we don't know exactly what it is. So thanks for that. No problem.

And thank you Sarah, for joining us again. You know, I'm so glad that we got a chance to, uh, continue the conversation that we started in episode 99 about Roots, because there really is so much there and that really showed me how much I take the, the, the roots themselves for, um, for granted. I talk a lot about the Rhizosphere and the root zone and the community and all that, but specifically the roots. I just kind of,

I just kind of take 'em for granted. And, and the more questions I asked last time we talked, the more I realized I didn't know. So thank you so much for, um, uh, for, for joining us and sharing your, you know, good cheer and expertise and um, and, and helping us, uh, grok a little more about what's going on, um, underneath the surface in our pots. Oh, my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me again.

Right on dear listeners. So if you are interested in, uh, reaching out, uh, to Sarah Lane or just to kind of follow her along, she doesn't do a lot of social media cuz she's focused most of her time on the research. But, uh, there are, there's one place that you can follow along and that's at her Twitter and uh, her Twitter is Exu Rootly.

So that is E X U D E T T e R O O t L y. And, and if you have, um, a question, uh, that you have not been able to find the answer for, uh, out there on the internet or, or an answer that you actually believe, um, Sarah does, uh, invite you to write to her directly. Um, but make sure that you give her some time to, uh, get back to you. Cuz remember she is in a doctorate program right now. And, and her email is S Lane. So that's s l A N E uv.ca. So that's uv ic.ca.

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