[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Sexology, a podcast that untangles the science of sex and pleasure. [SPEAKER_00]: And now, with this week's episode, your host, Clinical Psychologist, Dr. Naseneen Moali. [SPEAKER_02]: We'll come back to another episode of The Sexology podcast. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm your host, Dr. Nazanine Moly. [SPEAKER_02]: And today we're unpacking a question that you're all at home in my practice. [SPEAKER_02]: Why does our emotional connection keep growing?
[SPEAKER_02]: But our sex life is fading. [SPEAKER_02]: You'll love each other, your best friends, but when it comes to intimacy, something just feels off. [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe one of you avoids initiating, maybe sex feels more like a chore than a connection, or maybe you're stuck in the pattern where one person always wants more. [SPEAKER_02]: and the other shots down. [SPEAKER_02]: If that sounds familiar today's conversation will help.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm joined by Jessica Baum, licensed psychotherapist, couples therapist, and author of the best-selling book, and Shesley Attach. [SPEAKER_02]: We'll talk about why emotional safety can sometimes dampen this eyeer, how anxious and avoid and dynamics show up in the bedroom and what it takes to shift from performative sex back into true erotic connection, especially in long-term monogamous relationships. [SPEAKER_02]: But first, award from today's sponsor, Highly.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Hello and welcome back to another episode of The Sexology podcast. [SPEAKER_02]: I am so excited to welcome Jessica Bonta or Jessica welcome to show. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for having me. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm excited to be here. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for accepting our invitation. [SPEAKER_02]: As I shared with you, we just did a whole series on Concentral Non-Monogamy.
[SPEAKER_02]: And as I always talk about, I don't think, like there is a hierarchy, there are non-monogami, but there are non-monogami or other way around. [SPEAKER_02]: But what's confusing for so many people is when they are in a monogamous relationship and I'm sure you have heard the same thing. [SPEAKER_02]: We will say we love each other, but we're just not having sex anymore. [SPEAKER_02]: And this is such a common issue.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was looking at some research and 20% of the couples in the US. [SPEAKER_02]: They're in sexless relationship, meaning that it's not that they're asexual for the people they want to have sex. [SPEAKER_02]: They're just not sexually connecting. [SPEAKER_02]: And some of it might be rooted in the attachment style of the couple.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, can you tell us a little bit about that kind of that dichotomy that we see like a love and loss when emotional closeness often depends for some people that desire disappears? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I think and can talk specifically about Asian attachment styles, but I think the nature of a lot of relationships is we bond a lot and the evolution is we move through these stages and it takes a lot of work to kind of keep intimacy and connection alive at different stages.
[SPEAKER_01]: Many people become [SPEAKER_01]: They live parallel lives and they, you know, they just get into routine and they forget to build that intimacy or take that time or life just pulls them apart or they have children and, you know, they go into other roles and they are missing out on either their own connection to their own sensuality or, you know, the spark goes away and it takes quite a bit of work to keep that alive.
[SPEAKER_02]: That is true and I feel at least what I see from many of my clients is that they haven't had the right script for how these passionate sex life for couples in long-term relationship. [SPEAKER_02]: Many people have seen how it has been to be [SPEAKER_02]: roommates, co-pan, like in best case they know what does that look like, but the expectation, as you mentioned, that we are together and then the passion will remain. [SPEAKER_02]: It's very unrealistic and inaccurate.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would say about 90 percent of couples. [SPEAKER_02]: It requires adjustment. [SPEAKER_02]: The same, you're adjusting your lifestyle as you go with different seasons. [SPEAKER_02]: That would be the same. [SPEAKER_02]: And I know that for many cisgender heterosexual women, it's easier for them to access their more free, wild side before having children.
[SPEAKER_02]: But then when they step in the role of being a mother, that also is an additional thing that the rotisites themselves. [SPEAKER_02]: It's a very multi-layered experience. [SPEAKER_02]: But like focusing on attachment, [SPEAKER_02]: The often see that the anxious and avoidant attachment style per together and that caused some challenges in the bedroom on outside the bedroom.
[SPEAKER_02]: But for our listeners, that might not be familiar with these attachment styles, can you tell us a little bit about what those those often look like? [SPEAKER_01]: In the context of sexuality? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, overall, and also what is the anxious and what is avoidant attachment style? [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, yes, that's a, it's a big question.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, so anxious to attach a style is something that has formed an infancy, all attachment is formed an infancy, and has to do with nervous system and co-regulation and the sense of safety that you have with your primary caregivers. [SPEAKER_01]: And for an anxious baby, usually the hallmark is the parent is there, sometimes, and sometimes either in distress, they're there, but they're not fully connecting.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the baby learns to that, sometimes they're going to get connection in, sometimes they're not, and they can self-abandon, and [SPEAKER_01]: you kind of leave your relationships and you can know what your partners needs are. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, traditionally, I don't like to use the word, but codependency is kind of the well-known word, but it's like a people pleasing, knowing your partners needs before yours, abandoning yourself.
[SPEAKER_01]: And traditionally, anxious people can use like sex as reassurance, because they have a conscious understanding that abandonment is there. [SPEAKER_01]: So sex becomes a way to kind of [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, anxious people can move towards sex in that way, and if they want me, I am safe, and they focus a lot on that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the other end of the spectrum, we have avoided attachment, and that comes from an infant whose parents might have been physically there, but they weren't emotionally connecting. [SPEAKER_01]: And the baby learns to kind of like give up again on like emotional needs and shifts more into their left hemisphere. [SPEAKER_01]: And these individuals tend to grow up and be very successful, focused very much on work, very performance driven.
[SPEAKER_01]: They can be very performance driven in work. [SPEAKER_01]: They have a conscious understanding of fearing a engulfment. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's the opposite of the anxious person, which is why they're also it's a competent. [SPEAKER_01]: dance, which sometimes actually leads to lots of sex but not a lot of connection and safety just a lot of turmoil.
[SPEAKER_01]: They do enjoy physical connection and can move into physical connection often, but they are scared of the intimacy that comes with the connection. [SPEAKER_01]: So the intimacy that comes later can scare them and so they can pull away or shut down after a sexual experience because they don't want to open up.
[SPEAKER_01]: So those are those two extremes and then we have, you know, we have secure who are really comfortable and can find joy and can be more playful and don't struggle as much unless they're paired with an extreme and then there's fearful avoidant which really fearful avoidant is more or they're just a disorganized is more stuck in fear like I really want to be close but I'm also terrified of being close at the same time and those were babies who either experienced abuse
[SPEAKER_01]: anger or extreme neglect, you know, these extreme cases where we desperately want and need connection to survive and our primary caregiver is scaring us. [SPEAKER_01]: So, later they grow up in adulthood and they can get stuck in these states of terror. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I want to be close, but I'm also scared of getting close.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I believe for the most part we all experience and I talk about this in my next book, like, pockets of disorganization if we experience that, they can [SPEAKER_01]: We don't all live in disorganization all the time. [SPEAKER_01]: We can vacillate between anxious and avoidance, anxious people tend to attract avoidance people. [SPEAKER_01]: We could talk a lot about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, terms of sexual, sexual, interest, you know, I would say that anxious people really use sex to kind of validate and feel safe and avoidance people love to have sex, but the intimacy scares them afterwards. [SPEAKER_01]: So, it all shows up differently depending on where your primary patterns are.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for that wonderful overview, and sometimes people think that there must be a significant big-tier small-tier trauma that, like someone devil of this, different attachments style. [SPEAKER_02]: I know sometimes even it could be the sociopolitical time that you were growing up, sometimes may be a parent had health issues. [SPEAKER_02]: It could be a number of different reasons that lead someone to up anxious or avoid an or even disorganized attachment style.
[SPEAKER_02]: You said you all have the pockets of disorganized attachment, what does that look like? [SPEAKER_01]: It's not necessarily, not everybody has pockets of disorganized attachment. [SPEAKER_01]: But like, if you didn't have extreme and I love that, like, so everyone thinks of trauma so differently, but trauma in an attachment world is when your parent wasn't emotionally attuned and available in present. [SPEAKER_01]: And let's face it. [SPEAKER_01]: Most of us didn't get that, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Our parents were like trying to survive. [SPEAKER_01]: We grew up in a generation where you avoid and you work hard and [SPEAKER_01]: When I'm working with clients and I start a tuning and we start going there and I'm like, you didn't receive this. [SPEAKER_01]: They're like, oh my god.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't receive this right and there are some grief and it's almost like we need to experience that level of connection and a tunement and awareness to realize all my parents didn't have this to give and that is traumatic when we look at the attachment lens it's very traumatic and it's so easy to write that off. [SPEAKER_01]: but it usually leads someone to feel pretty lonely in the world and confused as to why they're not having safe and fulfilling connections.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so once you can really connect, that I wanna call it trauma, but I don't wanna scare the listeners to thinking that they had trauma, our parents love us. [SPEAKER_01]: But let's say that missing developmental attoonment and co-regulation, once we really start to understand the gravity of that, we can start to repair it and heal it and move forward.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's great that the word trauma just scares everyone and it's really... [SPEAKER_01]: These pieces in attachment that we need to feel safe as a child and we need to be co-regulated and held and our most of our parents were just trying to survive. [SPEAKER_01]: So they left these pockets of disorganization even if it wasn't. [SPEAKER_01]: So that could be, you know, you spent a lot of time with a parent who was disconnected or on a substance.
[SPEAKER_01]: on a substance or gave you the blank scare or had rage issues. [SPEAKER_01]: So your little system is like picking up on this and it's terrifying. [SPEAKER_01]: It's really terrifying. [SPEAKER_01]: We're really sensing beings. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure like I have an experience of like not getting picked up at school and there's like a sharp terror in my body, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And as an adult, I've had moments where I'm like all alone and I'm no one to orient to and these pockets of terror can come up. [SPEAKER_01]: and most of the time they have linked to earlier times. [SPEAKER_01]: And so some people might say I have those moments all the time so they have lots of disorganization or certain situations internally or externally can bring that up.
[SPEAKER_01]: And some people can say I was in this situation with this person and they treated me this way or they abandoned me or they [SPEAKER_01]: You know, did something and I felt the terror in my system come up and all of that is memory and all of that is nervous system and I talk about all of that very deeply.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when we look at attachment and disorganization and all the the styles I have actually created something called the wheel of attachment and it shows you how you can kind of move along the wheel with different people at different times. [SPEAKER_01]: The much more holistic way of looking at attachment.
[SPEAKER_02]: That is a good resource to have and sometimes people feel like if that's something that they struggled in the past, there's nothing that they can change, but people, if you work on repairing your attachment wounds, it can help you to get closer to secure attachment. [SPEAKER_02]: And I see it often that people are confused about how their attachment style contributes to their sex life.
[SPEAKER_02]: As you said, I see with my clients the anxious attachment style, they use a sex as a way of what you still want me undesirable, and sometimes when they feel wanted and that desire [SPEAKER_02]: often there are other partner that in couple of therapy they're kind of forced to come in. [SPEAKER_02]: They are as the monogamous relationship depends. [SPEAKER_02]: They're loving commitment for the partner depends.
[SPEAKER_02]: But that the eroticized for them, the relationship, oftentimes they have clients that they find non-emotionally connected partnerships more sexually charged. [SPEAKER_02]: Can you speak to that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm trying to speak to what you're saying and like grab onto the parts that I think I I understood, but I think a lot of people experience something like distance or pursuer and their relationships and that can even move into a committed relationship where there's this hot and cold intensity and flip flop, you know, and so we can even flip
[SPEAKER_01]: I think when you have high intensity relationships like anxious avoidance parings, you actually can have high intensity sexual experiences, the problem is they're based more on your your abandonment wound being activated rather than calm intimacy. [SPEAKER_01]: So, calm intimacy and peace can actually feel boring, sexually, to a lot of people's nervous system, where that is actually the space where deeper intimacy can grow.
[SPEAKER_01]: I see a lot of couples get stuck in creating unconsciously creating chaos. [SPEAKER_01]: so that the sexuality can get sparked and we have the abandonment moon wound or whatever consciously are unconsciously being activated and that creates a need to connect and I would say that's more secular and pattern and it's [SPEAKER_01]: It's not like it's better or worse, but it's lacking calm nervous systems, meeting each other later and deepening into real intimacy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of what you're saying, I think people might have that distance or pursuer in the beginning and we're in the honeymoon phase, right? [SPEAKER_01]: And so all these neurochemicals are being released. [SPEAKER_01]: And then later when we settle more into calmness, I think that's [SPEAKER_01]: We're not getting the same chemical reaction from our partner, and that's where our sex can kind of fall off, but that's also a space to deepen into more intimacy.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's very confusing, and I think for the listener, I think just understanding these dynamics can give them a little bit of relief that like A, this might be what's happening, B, this is normal, and how do we get you and your partner back into deeper connection? [SPEAKER_01]: Because I think that's what we're all trying to do at the end of the day.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're absolutely right that many people experience great sex, visceral and emolistic and very exciting and sometimes that can come from the wounds that you're having. [SPEAKER_02]: You're going to reenactment from the trauma or from the past and that's like what's they connect with the passion and draw. [SPEAKER_02]: sex life and you're saying that if we lean into safety, that also a possibility for people to it's we can be a place for people to find deeper intimacy.
[SPEAKER_02]: sexually, how does that look like for people or curious that that's like the sex that's not based on the band and [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's just more secure. [SPEAKER_01]: It's more out of joy and the film in. [SPEAKER_01]: It's more about seeing your partner and understanding them and more about experimenting and more about communication and less about reenactment.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's more conscious and it could be more terrifying because you're [SPEAKER_01]: and you see more and you experience more and you're with everything rather than being swept up in fantasy or a reenact man or an abandonment wound taking the lead.
[SPEAKER_02]: What are some of the exercises I know in your book you talk about kind of like different strategies, but what are some of the exercises you have for people if they want to identify which one of these patterns right now or the attachment style they are experiencing in the care and relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so in the book, I give somatic practices that die deep into not only what it feels like to be in each pattern, but the book also describes what your primary caregiver might have been experiencing and what you've been receiving as a little one and then how that pattern shows up and is an adult, but also the sensational experience that you feel in your body where the stored memory lives and I talk a lot about neuroscience. [SPEAKER_01]: I like geek out in this book.
[SPEAKER_01]: but where a attachment experiences live in the body and how to access them. [SPEAKER_01]: So I give, I couldn't give it now, but I give somatic experiences. [SPEAKER_01]: I give meditations, not only in the book, but then if you buy the book, you get them all separately, so you can go home and continue to dive into your soul, all your body and start to understand your attachment wounds, how they're showing up in your relationship, and what they feel like.
[SPEAKER_01]: So most of us are re-enacting in some way, and we get into this place in our life with our partner. [SPEAKER_01]: Mostly in our closest relationship, doesn't have to be our romantic relationship, but that's where I, as where I have had it come up, but it could be a work relationship truly. [SPEAKER_01]: These deep patterns show up in our very important relationships. [SPEAKER_01]: And most of the time, we are attracted to the familiar in an implicit way.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'll say unconscious for the viewers, but it's not unconscious. [SPEAKER_01]: It's actually very conscious. [SPEAKER_01]: And I talk about this, but we tend to have a charge towards certain situations. [SPEAKER_01]: And we tend to reenact the very thing. [SPEAKER_01]: that we don't want to experience.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so the book talks a lot about core wounds, charges in the body, starting to build conscious awareness of this from your childhood and how you're repeating these patterns in your adult life, and how to heal them, because once you figured them out, that's a big piece, but then there's a healing and a holding of the original wounds that are, it's very, I took about the science of healing these things. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not just woo-woo, it's like very on a neurobiological level.
[SPEAKER_01]: How do we heal neuro nets opening, somatic experiences? [SPEAKER_01]: How are we healing these wounds so that we don't keep creating these patterns so that we can have deeper intimacy with our partners so that we can have more fulfilling sex life. [SPEAKER_01]: That's what your listeners are going for. [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: And one of the best way I think people can discover that is reflecting on the past relationships, yes, in differences and in different relationships, we might show up differently. [SPEAKER_02]: But if we have, for example, anxious avoiding attachment so is something that's rooted in our childhood.
[SPEAKER_02]: So looking at what's been your role in previous relationships, how you react [SPEAKER_02]: that when the partner withdrew or how you reacted in the bedroom can help people to identify what are my patterns? [SPEAKER_02]: I'm huge and helping people understand their history and to your point is really helpful to tune in to your body when you are with your partner or even certain situation happens, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe your partner is your scheduling sex and your partner cancel it. [SPEAKER_02]: like noting what shows off for you in your body, and that also can be a tool for people to kind of see. [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, what's the sensation? [SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes sensation can connect us with the earlier experiences we had around that, because if we're trying to resolve something that doesn't belong in the current relationship, it might not lead to resolution for people.
[SPEAKER_02]: Also, working with that, I can be very helpful, I'm such a big, [SPEAKER_02]: component advocate for people to do a couple of six therapy so they can understand their pattern. [SPEAKER_02]: So knowing your partner's attachment style, your attachment style can help you to be half more understanding. [SPEAKER_02]: It's not about you necessarily. [SPEAKER_02]: It's about a pattern or what's unfolding in the relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: And kind of going back to the point of the sex life that's exciting, we all have a core erotic emotion. [SPEAKER_02]: So what's a big sex exciting for us is often related to specific emotion that you experience.
[SPEAKER_02]: And even if through therapy, you work move from anxious, dashing, nostalgia, secure attachment style, [SPEAKER_02]: If you learn your core erotic emotion, what really turns you on, that is something that you can create with your partner in a secure relationship. [SPEAKER_02]: And that can be very, very meaningful.
[SPEAKER_02]: So don't feel like you have to set out for a sex that's not exciting for you, but it can if you are working on cultivating a secure attachment style, it can help you with [SPEAKER_02]: having more space for play. [SPEAKER_02]: And great sex is about play. [SPEAKER_02]: So I want people to think about that. [SPEAKER_02]: So for people that they're thinking about, if what if when I'm pushing away my partner, sexually, is it something related to my attachment style?
[SPEAKER_02]: What are some of the common ways that you notice people do that? [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think that's some people who struggle with avoidance. [SPEAKER_01]: They struggle with real intimacy, so they might actually avoid their partner and fantasize about someone else as a way to create space from intimacy. [SPEAKER_01]: So that's one way I've seen that show up. [SPEAKER_01]: I've seen anxious people.
[SPEAKER_01]: avoid intimacy because they're so preoccupied with attuning to the other person and wanting to be needed that they lose the ability to be really present and in the moment.
[SPEAKER_01]: So sometimes the attachment [SPEAKER_01]: protect us are aren't allowing us to move towards deeper levels of intimacy because of our own fears and security is getting in the way and then we don't even realize that I'm creating distance by having fantasy or I'm creating distance by working a lot and avoiding my partner or [SPEAKER_01]: I'm so focused on being desired myself that I'm not tuning in to my partner completely.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we've all been there, we've all done it, and I think the first step is creating this awareness around. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so I am avoiding, or I am seeking validation in this way, what insecure part of me needs to be tended to, and to start healing on that level. [SPEAKER_02]: And I agree with you about the understanding your attachment style is just so, so valuable even if you have good sexual connection.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes they have clients that they are in an organized relationship and they went out of the relationship. [SPEAKER_02]: And it's related to their attachment wounds. [SPEAKER_02]: Has nothing to do with the partner. [SPEAKER_02]: They're telling me I'm even the sex I had. [SPEAKER_02]: Did my husband, did my wife, was better that sex I had with this other person. [SPEAKER_02]: But sometimes when we have an addressed or attachment wounds, it's unconscious that driving us.
[SPEAKER_02]: So far, listeners, I want to learn more about you, Jessica, what are some of the places they can find you? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so if you're listening, I actually have a bestselling book out there called the English-Slee attached, but my new book, Safe, talks about these issues on an a deep level, and I'm going to provide this podcast audience with
[SPEAKER_01]: a special blueprint that explains the attachment labels and beyond and a video of what it feels like to move into secure attachment and that how that shows up in your life so that will be special for you guys if you buy the book early and support me in that way.
[SPEAKER_01]: If not, I have a coaching company called the conscious relationship group and I have a private practice called the relationship Institute of Palm Beach and I'm on Instagram Jessica LMHC and I have a group of practitioners that work with attachment wounds and how to heal wounds and I have. [SPEAKER_01]: and I'm also available to help with any kind of other referrals or anything else in that area.
[SPEAKER_01]: But those are all the ways that you can reach me and I would love to give you the freebies that I created so that you guys can start to kind of unpack deeper these deeper patterns and start to find some resolution. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for coming in to show the link to those information will be in the [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, thank you so much for having me. [SPEAKER_02]: If you or your partner are feeling more like roommates and lovers, do not alone.
[SPEAKER_02]: Over time, a lack of sexual connection can quietly erode even the strongest relationships. [SPEAKER_02]: What starts as distance can evolve into resentment, loneliness and disconnection. [SPEAKER_02]: But it doesn't have to be that way. [SPEAKER_02]: Whether you're looking to rebuild intimacy or understand what's holding you back, support is available. [SPEAKER_02]: or click on the link in the show notes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you're still looking for your special someone, you can check out our sponsor, Highly. [SPEAKER_02]: Highly spoke, H-I-L-I. [SPEAKER_02]: It's the modern dating app making it easier than ever to meet someone emotionally aligned and consent forward. [SPEAKER_02]: It's safe, intuitive, and built for real relationship. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for supporting this podcast and we'll chat next week right here.