¶ Intro / Opening
KHumans need attention. Even if you're monogamous, you're getting that attention from one person. You need attention and acknowledgement from the world. And so you have to have ways to do that without getting in trouble.
Hello, friend, and welcome to the Sex Upgraded Podcast, a podcast for men all about sex. We're welcome by real authentic, down to earth conversations about sex, life, and relationships with some pretty wild personal stories and practical how-to episodes as well to help you have the most amazing sex life you can possibly have. My name is Taylor , and I'll be your host on this journey.
And it's my goal with each episode to give you practical, actionable tools and insights you can start using today to improve your sex life and to improve your entire life, because the quality of your entire life is directly linked to your sex life. So let's begin today's episode by taking a deep breath in together, through the nose, into the belly, and exhaling with an audible sigh. And let's get into today's episode, Kenya Stevens Progressive Love Academy.
Thank you so much for being here today, for coming on this show. It's an honor to be here with you. You're somebody who has coached me in the past. You've coached some of my best friends, and I'm really looking forward to getting into this conversation with you.
I'm too Taylor . This is fun. My Asheville homies. Yeah .
On deck. Asheville. Asheville on deck. And you recently moved from Asheville to Houston, right?
I did. And I love Houston, and I love Asheville. I think I'm gonna get a place in both places. Yeah.
Yeah. They're good spots. They're good spots for sure. So there's a lot of stuff that I'm excited to go into today about. You have some, some taglines You say you can divorce, proof any marriage. You can say power couples don't have deal breakers. You say all kinds of stuff. And I remember stuff from our coaching session, a lot of value that really helped me in my relationship.
And before we do, I'd love to just hear a little backstory in context of how you got to where you are and what is it that you would do, you know, in a nutshell, like how do you operate in the world?
Absolutely. Well, I am the world's best love coach. I have founded an entire culture, and I divorce proof marriages. I'm the only divorce proof marriage coach. I've not trained any others as yet. Um, I created a, a communication system that beats non-violent communication and an astrological system that beats astrology. So all of that, and then some, that's who I am. ,
. Nice. So tell me just a little icebreaker, you
¶ "Divorce-Proofing" a Marriage
said that beats non-violent communication. I remember we talked recently and you said non-violent communications, actually kind of violent , uh, . So I dunno if that's the direction we want to start, but I want to touch on that. Maybe actually, let's start with the divorce proofing the marriage piece. What do you mean by that? Because divorces are, the rate of divorce is pretty high right now in the United States at least. And the rate of unhappy marriage on top of that is even higher.
So you're looking at a really small percentage of successful, happier relationships over the long term .
Absolutely. The , um, the infidelity rate, let's start there. All right . Okay. So of those married today , 66% of those marriages have claimed infidelity. Now forget the ones who have not claimed it or have not admitted it yet. 40% of marriages are sexless today in the United States, and there's a 55% divorce rate. I think that's on the low side, the UK 75%. So we have a problem.
This is a f this is a huge f this is not a system that somebody should say, oh yeah, well, let's just make a few tweaks. It's not a few tweaks that's needed. It's an overhaul. Mm-hmm . And so when I say I divorce proof couples, I give them a new culture to put beneath their marriage, like a floor, a new floor, like let's say a new foundation of a house. You have to crack out the old foundation. That's expensive, right? But if you want that house to stand, it needs a strong foundation.
And this one's cracked period .
Hmm . So
¶ Common Relationship Mistakes
what are, what are some of the flaws that you see in the current system? Like what are some pitfalls that people are, you know, most people are making in their relationships?
Well, I think the biggest pitfall that people are making in their current relationships is that they really have no idea how to show up as a real human being in the relationship. And still keep the relationship
.
I mean, you , you have got to start putting on masks and hiding your true self from day one. Soon as you walk down the altar. Mm-hmm . , you know, you , you have to start to hide half of who you are in order to maintain political correctness with your partner. You can't express, you know, in most marriages, you can't just express what you feel. I don't wanna make love with you tonight. I wanna make love with your brother. I want you . I don't like you today.
Um, I don't, you know, it's just things we can't be authentic about that start to pile up from day one of marriages.
Hmm . And so these little things that, that might seem a little at first, maybe they start to fester over time and then cause bigger arguments, more separation as time goes on.
Yep . Especially by the seven year hump. It's too much. You know, , the first time people go over the seven year hump, you've heard of that, right, Taylor ?
I've heard there's a two year hump and a seven year hump beyond that. I, I have no idea.
Oh yeah. There's , uh, look, seven year hump, then a 14 year hump, then 21 every seven years. They say psychologically there's a hump mm-hmm. . And really you're trying to jump over that pile of undiscussed materials. mm-hmm . . And so, you know, the only people who can successfully do it is if they clear up that pile of materials or jump over it and ignore it. But jumping over and ignore it has not worked for modern marriages.
That's true. Yeah, that's true. The statistics are pretty wild. And so if you're listening to this, you might be thinking, oh, am I doomed? , is my relationship doomed? I mean, this is something like, and I'm in a great long-term relationship right now. I mean, at least three years in, I'm , I'm happy with it. We have stuff that we're working on too. But when I see these statistics, part of my mind is like, oh. You know, what am I gonna do? Like, how am I gonna do this?
Because there aren't really that many models. I need a model, like the world needs models for how to move beyond the honeymoon period, you know, beyond the biological, oh, it's time to procreate then what? You know, cuz cuz usually that burst fades after, you know, a year and a half, two years, somewhere in there. So then what, you know, then what do we do?
Right. And you're in luck because, you know, my husband and I wrote this when we were moving past our seven year hump mm-hmm . , I've been married for 30 years. And so down there, back at the first 10 years mm-hmm . , we were a monogamous couple just starting out, just like everybody else. Not knowing this, our parents and your parents, none of our parents , uh, prepared us to, because they couldn't be authentic with us. They were carrying that same culture. Mm-hmm .
, you know, our , did your parents ever tell you that, hey, one day your partner may not wanna make love with you anymore at all, you know, . Nope . One day you may want to be with other people while you still love your wife. Your our parents didn't tell us this.
Yeah. Yeah.
So , um, yeah, I , I'm saying that you're in luck because my husband and I were going through all of this when we developed this new model mm-hmm.
. So I didn't
¶ Polyamory is a NETWORK of Love
know that. So you started off with 10 years of monogamy and now you have multiple partners. Uh, you have a , you have a family system, is that what you would call it? What would you call your, your network?
A network of love. And we had 12 to 13 years of monogamy. Hmm . So that's two seven year humps. We, we, we've been married 27 years. We didn't go poly . We didn't start talking about polyamory until year 12. Hmm . All of our kids were born already. I had already survived cancer. My husband had already started his own business and failed and succeeded and failed and succeeded. We, we, we did like our entire twenties and early thirties monogamous.
Hmm . Got it. Beautiful. And also, if you're listening, you might be thinking that we're gonna try to turn you Polly or non-monogamous in this episode. , that's not my intention. I remember, like you say, Kenya also that this work that you do, these systems that you've created also helps couples if they wanna be monogamous as well. So just to say upfront , we're not gonna try to convert you. At least I'm not .
No. I would never try to convert you. Poly polyamory is too hard for anybody who doesn't choose to do it. Yeah. I mean, if you doing it by mistake cuz your partner's cheating you, probably by by default you're in a world of trouble cuz you didn't choose it. It's never gonna work. Mm-hmm . unless you choose it, you know.
Yeah. So, okay. So let's get into some, just a couple strategies, ideas. So you say a lot of discord happens in relationship because people are afraid to express their authentic desires. Oh, like, oh, I'm not attracted to you today. No, I don't want to have sex with you. All this stuff gets replaced with something else. Are you saying people should just say, oh, I don't wanna have sex with you today, period. like what? Like what are some alternatives?
Yeah. No, that's called , um, radical honesty, which is a system that I don't think works either. Mm-hmm . , what we really have here is a failure to communicate because we do not know who is speaking. So we really have , um, our self identity. We really believe that our beliefs are just all coming from our own inner truth. We're never taught that, you know, you have three parts of your brain , which means you could have three inner voices that all come from a different part of you.
So the first thing that we teach and share with our clientele and with our community is that we have to start to identify who is speaking when we speak. If I'm saying I don't wanna make love with you anymore, is that my animal, the part of me that's more primal. The part of me that's just about my emotion and raw feelings is that my ego, the part of me that's intellectual, the part of me that really processes data in a logical fashion.
Or is that my higher self, the part of me that is all knowing all wise. Hmm . You know, so if I don't know which part of me is speaking, then I have a communication problem. Cuz I may come to my wife and say, I wanna make love with other people, but that just may be my animal that day. My animal's angry at you. That's why. Or that may be my ego that day. Logically you've gained 30 pounds and I've always liked skinnier women. That's a logical reason for that.
But we , we we're , we're not sharing that, you know, where that information is coming from. So it's not just to run into your relationship and say, to start telling your truth. It's understand who's speaking and be able to communicate who's speaking to your spouse. Now, if that sounds really like Japanese, it's probably, cuz you've not read my book Uplevel Communication. We make this really simple so that your spouse gets to know your voices. Hmm . And so that you get to know your inner voices.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think like when I'm talking to my partner based on how I'm talking, I could be talking from different parts, you know, if I'm angry or frustrated or confused or whatever. Like those are all, there's all different parts of me happening at various times and that's a useful awareness. Like what part of you is the part that's speaking, you know? Right. And so I
Hear, yeah. I hear all the psychologists say , and I'm a trained classical psychologist , um, uh, graduated from Howard University with early childhood psychology, but I hear all of them saying that we have a communication issue and none of them are naming it. And that is just aggravating to us because our work names the problems and remedies the problem. Mm-hmm . . So yeah, that's one of them. We don't know who's speaking when we speak.
Okay. So say , let's use this as an example cuz you're running with it. I don't want to have sex with you. I want to have sex with other people. Say that's coming from my, my ego Right Now then, then what? Like then what would you say?
Well, we move into an entire uplevel cen uh , scenario with your partner. That's a vent that you're having. Mm-hmm . , we call that event . Your ego is venting about you wanna have sex with other people, you're venting about it cuz you're in a confined space. Mm-hmm . with your partner and your animals raging, trying to bust out of that space. So you have a vent about the com being confined. Hmm .
So you would vent that to your partner, recognize that it's just your ego and your animal speaking, and then let your partner soothe you. Now, most people, when they don't have a safe space to vent to, they just run out and act on that animal stuff. Mm-hmm. . And now you have a divorce on your hands when you could have just vented to your partner and let her soothe your animal ego.
Yeah. That's interesting. So when I think of, if I'm gonna vent to my partner about how I want to have sex with other people, that seems like a tall order for my partner to sooth me after that . Well, it
Is a call order if she doesn't understand what the ego is and what the animal is. Yeah . It's like she's talking , she has to learn that your ego is only sharing your tiny little perspective. It's never telling the truth. Mm-hmm. your animal is sharing a tiny perspective. It's never telling the truth. And all of this is available in our work. Uplevel communication, your partner needs to come get that work , because she's never gonna understand this if she's educated in the classical West.
Right. They don't understand it. They, they, they , they have never believed in , um, uh, um, looking at different parts of the self and acknowledging one part of self is God. And another part is, you know, it's not God. , . I mean they just don't study it deeply enough. So Yeah . They don't teach
It. Yeah. So we're talking like an entirely different paradigm of relating here. Yes. Yeah . For monogamous or non-monogamous relationships. Yes .
Yeah , absolutely. It's especially important for monogamous relationships.
Why? Especially
Because if you are going to be in close quarters like that where polarity is at risk mm-hmm. , you know, you spend every day together, polarity is at risk. The charge is at risk every day you are at risk. you are at higher risk for cheating, then poll people. So you gonna need to be able to communicate authentically and be soothed and be held and have safe space with your partner.
Yeah.
Or else you going to implode or explode and bust out .
Yeah. So let's say, let's
¶ Dealing With Fading Desire in Long-Term Monogamy
say there's a couple and they're in a longer term monogamous relationship and they're experiencing what a lot of people experience, which is that these sexual desire is starting to fade. Uh, maybe they're spending a lot of time together. Would you recommend, I mean obviously there's so many different possible variables here, but like, would you recommend starting to take some space?
Like what would you recommend for that scenario if they weren't ready yet to try to have sex with other people or open their relationship?
Well, yeah. I support my monogamous clients in doing a lot of things that take you to the edging. Um, they , there's a , there's a term called edging that usually is used for tantra . Yeah . But I use it for my couples to edge through various poly scenarios, but they're not poly and they will never be poly . Mm-hmm . , they're sexually exclusive, but they do need some edging in order to make some space in their relationship. So we have games that we have them go play in public.
All types of different exercises that they can go do on a regular basis to keep their, because humans need attention. Mm-hmm. , even if you're monogamous, you're getting that attention from one person. You need attention and acknowledgement from the world. And so you have to have ways to do that without getting in trouble. Mm-hmm. , that's what I teach my
Clients. . So what, what's a game like, what's something you would go out in public and have people do?
One of our game out of hundreds of games is , um, how many numbers can we get?
Really ?
So me and my partner do this all the time. We go out to the club and cuz he knows I need to practice talking to people cause I'm really shy and whatever mm-hmm. . So how many numbers can I get as opposed to him and whoever wins owes the other some favors.
Hmm . , who usually wins between y'all ?
He does. I'm getting better though. I'm getting better. I, I , I, I don't have no game. I , I'm working on my, my, my, my , um, what is that called? When you walk up to people and flirt, you're game, game .
I talk , I guess some people call it pick up , but pick ups a little more. You know, there's some derogatory connotations or thoughts with that too. Right. So it sounds like, sounds like to me , um, through the action of going out into the world and experiencing attention or playing with the edge of getting attention from other people, that in some way can revitalize the connection that exists between you and your partner.
Or it, like, it can increase maybe the, the , the specialness or the uniqueness or your awareness of the uniqueness of your partner. Something like that.
Yeah. I think that it allows you to exercise freedom. That's, that's the missing thing. I mean, let's just be real. Hmm . Humans need acknowledgement and attention, but humans need freedom and stability. Mm-hmm. . So if you, the , the more freedoms that are removed, the more you're gonna wanna get away from that, which seems to be removing your freedoms mm-hmm . . And so you don't want your partner to be that . You don't want your relationship to be that.
You need to edge freedom in some way somehow, even if it's not sexually. Okay. Period. You heard it from me first and I'm the best in the world.
Got it. So this makes me think of, yes, we're, we're needing freedom, we're wanting freedom, and we also want safety and connection. It makes me think of all the different needs we're trying to get
¶ Putting Too Many Needs on Our Partners
met from our partner, you know, or all the different roles we put on our romantic partner. And we'll still hear him talk about the context of monogamous relationship. Like most people, well , I'll just speak for myself, you know, with my partner. I want connection. I want play, I want safety. I want someone who will listen to me. I want sexual exploration. I want support. I want collaboration. I want insight. I want somebody to hold me when I'm not feeling so well.
I want like all this stuff, you know, and I'm, I'm realizing like that's a lot to want from somebody. And I thought I had already paired that list down some, but I did an inventory a couple days ago. I'm like, holy, , I'm still asking for a lot for my partner. You know, . Yeah . And, and that, that, I don't think that's the healthiest way to be in relationship. So now I'm in this con this this phase of thinking, okay, what do I want to prioritize in my relationship?
Cause I recently heard this thing where somebody asked a really successful investor or business person , like, how do you be successful in your life? And the the guy said, okay, name the top 25 things that you want to accomplish in your life and now cut out the bottom 20 and just run from those like the plague and only focus on the top five. Wow . And that's how you'd be successful.
And so it got me thinking about relationship and like, what's the kind of relationship I want to have with my partner? Maybe from this list of 25 things, maybe I need to cut out the bottom 20 and really focus on the top five. I don't know, this is something I'm thinking about right now. Wondering, like what are your thoughts on that?
Well, that's exactly the system we've created for , um, mating and the situation of the Disney, I call it the Disney complex mm-hmm. where you think, you know, you meet Prince Charming, you run happily and they provide all of your needs for the rest of your life. And that's it. Now, baby, you know, I learned very rapidly in my marriage that that is not the case. And I started to see that there's different chemical reactions between different people mm-hmm. , so, you know.
Yeah. With my husband and I, we had a wonderful chemical reaction. It was more spiritual, you know, we would like to talk all night. And his talking gave me orgasms and we were like spiritually connected. We knew each other in the past life , that, that type of thing. But then we got married based on that energy. Right. And it was beautiful. But later I found that, wait a minute, I want some other things. Like, I wanna be like super primally passionate with somebody.
Like I want somebody to really want my body. Mm-hmm . , my husband didn't want my body, he wanted my mind. Mm-hmm . And that's how we were, that's who we were. So I tried to get him to do that. Then I was like, nah , that's not working. But I also want somebody to pamper me, take me on vacations. My husband hates vacations. He hates to go on cruises. He hates the ocean. I'm like, it's too late to give him back. You know?
So I started to realize that, you know, I would need different people in these different areas mm-hmm . . So yeah. That's how we developed a system called the Nine Expressions of Love. And what it does for our couples is like magic. It's like ingenious. It's like they never, they always thought that yeah, they want Disney as well. Mm-hmm. . But what we get our clients to realize is that it's not mathematically possible to have one person complete all these things.
And , and you need all the things mm-hmm. . So you could take the bottom 20 off your list, but you still need those bottom 20 . And that's not to say you even have to be Polly to get it, but we support our couples in getting all the things from various people, whether you're poly or monogamous, but never from one person. You gonna kill that man or that woman.
Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Or at least kill the charge in polarity in the relationship. That's it . You know , and you wonder like, why, why am I not attracted to my partner partner anymore? You know? Right. So you said the nine different kinds of, of, of attraction or choices or something like that. I remember, so if anybody watching this you or listening to this, you might have seen a documentary that came out years ago.
Like, back when I was in a poly , uh, v relationship, I wa we were coached by Kenya and her husband for a documentary. And that like, made the rounds on the internet. Man. People had all kinds of to say about that . Oh wow . That was , that was, yeah. That was fun. It was interestingly, like our relationship imploded after that, you know, for a , for a period of time, which was actually great and healthy and a useful progression of, of what needed to happen.
You know, it kinda struck up my mind of like, oh, what is, what does successful actually mean? . Um, but then gotta pause for a second. All right . No,
Keep going. Keep going.
All right . Um, I'm gonna pause till you get back . Okay .
Stop it . YouTube . Sorry. She's really bad. This little boom . I got her now. All right . Okay, go ahead.
And so I remember when we were in a , uh, we were in a coaching session with you in this office and you were talking about how there are these different choices and how one of us was our partner's womb choice, like W O M B. I remember that. Cuz at first I thought you were saying wound, like this is the wound choice, like the pain choice and I didn't understand and I was confused. Yes . So I'm
¶ The Different Kinds of Attraction
wondering, can you talk about these nine different, these nine different things so people can have an idea? Well ,
I have talked about them in my book, the Nine Expressions of Love. But let's talk about Wound Choice. Yeah,
Let's talk about a couple right now. Cuz people Yeah . We're , we don't have your book in front of us right now, so maybe just a couple of 'em .
Okay . Okay . A ch a couple of them. But I, I would really encourage if you've, if you've, some people read the nine Expressions of Love and they start to cry mm-hmm . because they're like, if I had just had this prior to the breakup Right. Prior to the, you know, you , I that's why I'm saying it's urgent that you read it for yourself. But let's go over a few of the principles. Correct . One is that, you know, there is masculine and feminine as well as dominance and submission. Mm-hmm . .
So some people associate masculinity with dominance, but there's feminine dominance, there's masculine dominance, there's androgynous dominance. You know, any of those energetics can be dominant. Mm-hmm. . So we take this mathematical formula, it looks like the magical square with nine little sections of the square. And we give each one of them , um, a type of love. So the womb love that you're talking about is that crazy love that comes from a woman's womb or a person's womb. You understand?
It comes from that root chakra. See, everybody has a womb. It's the root chakra. Right. And so , just in case for hymns, hers them's days , you know, you got a womb baby. It's called the root chakra . And so if the love is making that chakra spin, if you see somebody on the street and your root just starts spinning, we call that womb love mm-hmm . . And when you are attracted to somebody like that, the , the situation can bring up wounds.
It's usually a very tumultuous relationship because it's highly charged sexually, which means it's gonna be highly charged emotionally. And so , um, everybody needs this energy. This is what builds your cheek . This is what , uh, uh, uh, starts the, the flow up from Kundalini up to your, you understand, to your , um, to your crown. Mm-hmm. , you need that energy.
So if it's not in your marriage, if it's not in your relationship, which it usually isn't after seven years, you are gonna go find it like, like a dog has to find food. . You will find it. And so it's important to know that this is a , a , a , a kind of love that is valid and that everybody looks for, there's also crown love. Let's go to the opposite. Mm-hmm. , the, the love that connects you to somebody where, oh my gosh, you just feel so spiritually connected. It's like a sapiosexual.
I get you, I understand you. I feel heard type of love. Mm-hmm. , you need that too.
. But you might not, you might not necessarily wanna rip each other's clothes off and No . And get raw and dirty.
You don't Yeah . And you wonder, why don't I want to rip his clothes off? He gets me so well, you know, but I don't want it like that. And if you understood what it was mm-hmm. , then you can understand the sex. Each of these has a different type of sex. So there's womb choice sex, there's crown choice sex, there's support, choice, sex, there's, and the book outlines all of these. It goes way beyond love languages. Mm-hmm. like exceedingly beyond.
And I So you think it's vital to, to understand it. Mm-hmm.
, would you say that you and your husband then were primarily , uh, crown choice because you had so much like spiritual inspiration, intellectual inspiration?
Yeah. We were primarily crown choice then I was the one crying boohooing cuz we weren't, didn't have a sex life after the kids. And you know, it was never enough sex for me ever from day one. Mm-hmm . . And I was like, oh , that'll be okay. We'll go to some trainings. And we did go to Tantra . It does not change the energetic of that relationship. It was not womb period.
Got it.
So I had to go get some womb choices after I became poly . If I was never gonna get be poly , I could hire me a nice , um, bucks of masseuse. Mm-hmm . You understand there's other ways to get womb energy without intercourse.
Yeah. I think the biggest, like the, the huge thing that you're pointing to here that I is so crucial is just the di the diversification, the intentional diversification of getting needs met as humans and not trying to get 'em all met from our partners. Like, that's the thing that seems like it will kill a relationship super fast. Right . And I believe that's probably the piece that will lead people to not be authentic about their desires either.
And that, you know, is like, oh, they have these needs. I have these needs and I'm not getting that in my relationship. I want them, maybe there's some shame around that or some fear around bringing it up, therefore I just never talk about it. And then da dot.dot their relationship dies. Or implodes or explodes. Hopefully there's, yeah. Hopefully we can end a relationship or change a relationship skillfully instead of waiting for the explosion.
That would be great.
Yeah. But it , it brings up the question for me. So a lot of people say, oh, what's the sec , what's the secret to a long-term relationship? How do you, how do you get in a long-term relationship? Another, another piece is
¶ What Measures "SUCCESS" in Relationships?
what's the measure of success of a long-term relationship? You know, it sounds like you and your husband have been together for 30 years and is consistent sex like the measure of success in a long-term relationship? It sounds like not. No.
Taylor , that's a real question. Or is that's an audience question. No, sex is not the measure of sex . . I mean, I dunno where we learned this stuff. Yeah. Sex have nothing to do with the measure of success in a relationship. For the , for us the measure of success has been developing the tools we need to get from conditional love to unconditional love. Mm-hmm. , if we didn't get over that hump. Cause that is the hump. You understand? Totally.
If we never move from conditional to unconditional, then forget it. We have to break up. Yeah. Because yeah. That, that, that's just the bottom line for me. I'm sorry, go ahead.
Yeah, no, it's a , it's , it's a rhetorical question. And also it's a, it's a useful question because I think like we're so programmed by the Disney narrative, you know, that like, oh, you find somebody, you find the one person, you're gonna have a passionate relationship for the rest of time. And that just doesn't happen.
And I think a lot of us, like we intellectually understand that, but it's useful to hear it again and again to combat and counteract like all the other that we're taught about this stuff. Right. You know? Yeah . Yeah . You know , useful for me to hear it again. For sure. And so, I, I remember one of the quotes, I'm gonna quote you here and see what you have to say about it, but you say it's perfectly normal to love your spouse unconditionally as you enjoy being in love with other lovers.
Now obviously this is, is for the context of non-monogamous relationship, but I think this unconditional love piece is, is important to talk about here.
Yeah. , that's fun . I th I , you know, I say that because read the quote again cuz I, I just need to hear that one more time. I'm sorry. Let's put my dog down.
No,
¶ Unconditional Love...
it's great. It's perfectly normal to love your spouse unconditionally as you enjoy being in love with other lovers.
Yes. You see, when you love your spouse unconditionally, it's okay for me. I was saying that because that's how I feel. I love my spouse unconditionally. My spouse loves me unconditionally. I will never, there's nowhere to go. Why would I leave him? I have complete freedom and complete safety both. And he has the same . So there's no, it's , it is , there's not even a question of leaving.
So in that scenario, it's so easy to be in love with somebody else, but only when there's unconditional love. If I'm in love with somebody else and I'm loving my husband conditionally mm-hmm . , then my husband's gonna feel like, oh , you're gonna remove love from me. Or, oh, this is not safe . Or what are you gonna do? Are you gonna , you know, it's never feels good, but it feels much better when I , and that's what I, when I divorce proof my couples, they leave as unconditional loves.
They come in very conditional.
Yeah. So another thing that you say is, you say power couples do not have deal breakers. That's What do you mean by that? Aren't deal , aren't deal breakers healthy?
Right there? A deal breaker is conditioned.
Yeah.
Oh, you did this and that would be a deal breaker. Oh, you love conditionally. Oh, well I have boundaries. Oh , that boundaries is like a curse word for me. Do you think I have boundaries? If I'm talking about unconditional love, then what's my boundaries?
I don't know. Do you have
Oh , so I've, I , I've never understood how people get into this huge discussion about boundaries and oh, whatever you gonna , um, you know, it's, it's, it's conditionality and that's fine if you like it, I love it. But my 30 year marriage is not based on conditionality. There's nothing my husband can do that will make me say I'm leaving you nothing. And, and so I have no deal breakers. That's how I know it's unconditional. Mm-hmm . Does that make sense?
Yeah, I hear what you're saying. Is it definitely a step beyond where I am in my relationship right now? For sure. . Cause I'm , I'm thinking like, oh yeah, I've got some deal breakers, I think. But I wonder, like, I've been wondering about this, you know, as we deepen in our relationship, like what is there, I can see the conditional love, you know, and I can also see the unconditional love. Like, wow, I love this person so much. Like tremendously, deeply want to deepen with them.
Like, and there is this level of unconditionality that's like, I will always love this person. Mm-hmm . for sure. And then there are these layers of, but if she does this thing, that , you know? Right. And yeah, it just makes, yeah. I have unresolved thoughts around that.
. No worries. That's why we exist. I divorce proof your marriage when you're ready. Come on down, you next when the price is right . .
Great.
I mean this is fun work. This is not, I don't even think of it as work. This is my absolute passion to see people walk away not even knowing that they were unconditional even after 20 years, they were conditional. Mm-hmm . after 25 years, 30 years, they were conditional and didn't know it. Yeah . And seeing 'em walk away so powerful. It's , it's my joy in life.
Yeah. So
¶ Critique of Nonviolent Communication
as you're , let's talk about the non-violent communication piece cuz you said that can be violent. Like how does, how does that line up or not with how you get people to talk with each other?
Well, I think non-violent communication can be violent because it invokes violence when you have to hold into motion . Hmm . So when you have to stuff down, press away , ignore and cage your animal, then you can expect that beast to bust out, grow old and bust out someday . So that's why I say non-violent communication can be violent cuz it feels like they're saying stuff the animal away. Say everything with your inside voice and be a good guy and just tell the truth.
Be authentic, but don't yell, don't let your animal free. We don't believe in that. Mm-hmm . . So uplevel communication is a , um, a system. The world's first system that supports the communication of the animal, the communication of rage, the communication of anger, depression, sadness, joy, ecstasy, whatever your animal's going through, your partner can hold it if they know how.
Yeah. That's, yeah. And that's, I think that's, that's something people gotta learn because like if somebody's coming at me or at somebody with their animal, it's not gonna look all nice and tidy. It's not gonna sound like the formulaic tool outline of speaking in non-violent communication. There will be some yelling, there will be some screaming, that sort of thing. Right . Listening to what's going on underneath.
And that's okay . Like, that's what is the beautiful part of relationship. That's what Brene br , Brene Brown calls of vulnerability. And so if we don't ha we not showing our animal ever, cuz we think that's the right thing to do mm-hmm. , then we don't even know that we're not fully even connected with our partner in vulnerability. So Uplevel , um, helps us achieve that. Finally, gosh,
. So first step is to even recognize that we've got this animalistic part of us internally. Yeah . It's how we're supposed to navigate that without even being aware that this exists. I would imagine most people just shut this down. I have shut that down. I've done, you know, a lot of work to like wake awaken the wild person, the wild beast, wild, whatever you wanna call it with within me. And it feels awesome. And it's a constant practice Yeah . To keep that awareness going in our soci society.
And I feel like there's a whole , um, network or substrate of rules in our society that are unspoken, that keep that piece of us down. You know, like if I'm in a restaurant and something tastes really good, I'm not gonna be like, ugh . You know, like, yeah . You know, I have to like really politely smile, you know, and do this thing or I'll cause a disruption in the matrix or the field, you know, of the society agreed upon dampening of pleasure.
Hallelujah. I love how you said that. That's exactly it. You cannot have an orgasm in public. You cannot become enraged at your boss. You are not allowed to . And so , uh, where do we put these things? These are real bites of information and experience that we have to stuff away. And that takes us into awkwardness first. Don't you feel awkward when , when , when you have an expression or an experience inside that you can't really express externally. That feeling is called awkward.
Then it's called tension, then it's called, you know, whatever your blockage is that keeps you from living your dreams, . So that's why this is important. That animal is important. And I , you know, American culture's not the worst. If you go to Europe, there are certain cultures where you're not even allowed to say that you're angry. You know, even without the animal, just even to voice that or that you're horny. Mm-hmm . Or that you're tired or that whatever . So we're not that bad off.
We can go to places and do smash objects and go , go pay $75 to smash televisions, but why not in the moment? Uplevel helps us do it in the moment with the support of everyone in our community, with the support of our partners, so that we are just flowing . Yeah . We're not emotionally constipated, you know?
Yeah. I mean it seems like there's a societal agreement that, that if, if anybody does go into that kind of mindset or state that somehow they're labeled immediately as unstable or untrustworthy or something's wrong with them, or they need to be hospitalized or arrested or something like that,
When actually the people who are on meds and are hospitalized are the ones, you're right, they are, they are trying to be more authentic than the normy. You're right. You're absolutely right. That's crazy.
Yeah. Societal agreements. There are some, some crazy, crazy
Well, we gotta start busting those because it really does produce a need for even more and more meds and more hospital beds, honestly.
Totally. And more dysfunctional relationships. Yes . And work relationships and family and all that stuff. Right. And, and just to acknowledge like there's a, there's a certain amount of labor involved in making the choice to take the step towards being more alive in that way, you know? Right. If I'm gonna make that loud moment of pleasure at the restaurant, there's a little bit of labor that's like, all right , I'm gonna bust through all of these.
Like the people that are gonna look at me weird and just do it cuz it. Like, I want to do this. And like it benefits the world. Yeah .
You know,
I think that , and there's , there's time and a place too. Obviously I'm not gonna whip out my dick and start masturbating in a restaurant like that would be very inappropriate and land me in jail and it would be too big of a jump, you know?
Right, right, right. The jump, you have to open the way slowly, but I, I'm telling you it's possible because in 2005, nobody thought it was possible that it would be normalized that women would have multiple male partners. But I was on that mission and I single-handedly push more and more people into comfort there. And now it's like everybody's talking about polyamory. Of course women want multiple partners, you know, but that was a lot to push through culturally.
Yeah . I've seen it on the front page of most major news networks recently actually, except for Fox News, like everything else. , that's
Fox is running late .
Yeah, it is . I like to watch different networks just to see how different people are presenting different ideas. It's, it's in intellectually interesting to me. And yeah, I have seen, there's definitely an uptick of people talking about non-monogamy and how it's actually can be a really healthy thing. And hey, actually this is a normal, like your desires are normal. Yeah . And I'm like, yeah, wow. I wasn't seeing this in the early two thousands.
Okay. Uh , maybe I wasn't looking for it, but it wasn't being put in my face. And now it's like on the front page of these things. So it's definitely, it's out there.
You're welcome.
Yeah. Well, you've been on all kinds of talk shows and interviews.
I've got millions of NAS comments. And remember you said if you were to in the restaurant, that's how it was at that time to talk about it. I mean, millions of emails and nastiness and threats Yeah. And people saying , uh, this is not, this is ungodly, you know, . Yeah ,
I, I remember that. And I believe that, and I do remember when that documentary came out with, with , uh, I'll just name them because this Luna and Mason, I think that'd be fine. We've talked about doing podcasts together to talk about our past relationship. That would be great. Our na our names were not actually on that documentary. It was your name and your husband's name. And I remember feeling grateful actually, because I was like, good Lord.
Like there are some angry people out there in the world. And like, that would be a lot for my nervous system to handle. And at that time seemed like y'all had the resources to handle it , but I would , I was like, whew , . Yeah. That was a lot.
Wave two coming March 26th. I hope dates aren't workable in here, but TLC is producing the real deal. So I'm excited about that.
Yeah, good stuff. So you, you said, oh, I forget the exact wording that you said about a minute ago, but it made me think there's this, there's this almost insidious
¶ What is "Spiritual?"
spiritual or spiritual belief layered to all of this as well, which is like, oh, if you do this thing, it's not spiritual. You know, I don't know if it's like, like if you're emotional, it's not spiritual. If you're getting into your animalistic self, it's not spiritual. You need to transcend that to be more, you know, God-like or something. Do you know what I mean?
? Yes. I mean maybe that comes from , um, the big three, like, you know, Catholic or Christian Judaism, Islam, but the nature traditions where my ancestors are from, they cherish the animal. They built huge objects about the animal, the things , and, you know, totem poles and in Native America all over Inkin and Aztec and Amazonian, my people, you know, indigenous people all over the world, even my Celtic roots, I'm 15% Irish , my Celtic roots.
They knew about, you know, the animal and the fact that we are riding in this , uh, geothermal suit that is an animal. And that's why we honor it. You know, you understand we do have a spirit. That spirit is invisible. It's transcendental. And it has been here since the beginning of time, but it would have no experience without the encasement of the animal . So we honor the animal, we honor emotion. That's why, you know, certain people came into those cultures and said, what are they doing?
They're dancing, they're, you know, they're colored their bodies. They put flowers all over their body. You know, they, they, they're sexual, they're sensual . What is this? And it's because we honor the animal from day one. That's what indigenous tradition is about. So that's what Uplevel brings back into Western culture. And I believe that that's why I'm here. That's why I was carried out of my traditional lands into this culture to teach this.
And so, yeah, that it's, it's an ancient history as to why we should honor our inner animal.
Hmm .
. Sorry y'all .
No, it's, I mean, that's beautiful. That's great. Thank you . That's why I was like, that's why I want to interview you cuz I've, you got passion about this and you feel it . And like that's it's helpful. Yes . It's helpful to feel that, you know? Mm-hmm . And, mm mm Yeah. Oh, here's what , here's what I wanted to say. I noticed that even in, you could call it the, there's like the whole, the conscious scene, right?
The conscious sexuality scene, the conscious whatever, relationship, spirituality, all this stuff. It seems like there's an influx of, we could call it puritanical or, or like , um, limited beliefs that are making its way into the quote unquote conscious scene as well. You know, like you Yeah . Do you know what I'm talking about? It's like the same kind of mindset. Oh, the animal is dirty. You need to transcend that.
And I'm wearing all this spiritual clothing and speaking this kind of new age talk as well. Like, have you seen what I'm talking about? Oh,
Of course. I have. I just stay far away from it as possible because it's, it's not me and I don't attract it, so I don't see it much. But the spirituality I know includes the ego, the animal, and the higher self. Mm-hmm . , they are the, you know, the trifecta. There's nothing happening without your animal. You have no experiences without your animal . So I don't understand how spirituality would even be possible without the experiences that you can have because you are an animal . Yeah .
So I , I , i , if, if people approach me like that, I would really help them understand the, the spiritual connection between the ego , the animal, and the higher self. And if they're not working together, if you, if your ego is fighting your animal, like, ugh , that's dirty, that's nasty, then you not , how spiritual are you? You're not even integrated within yourself. What are you talking about? ? You not orgasmic, but you spiritual. Come on .
Yeah. Yeah. It's a thing . It's a thing. And I, I try to stay away from it too, but also like, I do see
¶ Men Need to Support Each Other
it sometimes, and I get asked questions about this too via guys, you know , cuz I teach about sex and how to work with sexual energy and stuff, and guys are like, oh, is this thought dirty? Or is this thought not as spiritual? Or is this thought mean that I have, like, that something's wrong with me ? And I'm like, no dude, your desires are beautiful. Yeah . Yes .
You know, but this is a thing like people, people carry this shame internally too, because they're not talking about it and they're not having these kinds of conversations.
I'm so glad you're helping them because men need to support men with that. I even if I told them that that's not dirty or that's beautiful that you have that support for that, because then that's the only way they're gonna regulate their sensuality, which is a full animal process. , you gotta go in with the where it's at . I love that. Good. Thank you, tey. Thank you for your work.
Yeah , yeah. Totally. Thank you for your work. Yeah . I was just talking with somebody yesterday on a call about how they're feeling. Yeah. They're just feeling a lot of shame for they're , they're in a relationship and they're feeling a lot of shame for looking around at other people and finding other people attractive and thinking that something's wrong with them for that. And thinking that, you know, maybe like they, they aren't spiritual in enough or they didn't do enough work or something.
And I'm like, man, your desires, you will always have desire for other people. Like what j what matters is like how you communicate internally about that if you honor yourself, if you can have compassion for that part of yourself, and then how you act on it, you know , act on it , integrity or out of integrity. Like those are the pieces that matter. But like in my experience in understanding the desire for, for our needs is never gonna end.
No. Could you also let them know, I mean, this is an animal fact that mammals are not monogamous. Like, you know, literally a monogamous species only have sex when the female is in her heat. Hmm . Now we know human females have sex all month and so do human males and um, um, a monogamous species do not have protruding , uh, like a penis that is , uh, uh, um, not retracted. You know, , uh, monogamous species wouldn't have the , the men and the women look exactly the same.
So one wouldn't have breasts, while the other one has a flat chest. They would look exactly the same. So there wouldn't be this , I mean, they need to understand the science is missing, not just spirit , the sciences missing on how humans would be considered monogamous. We're very promiscuous, vicarious species. Mm-hmm . by nature.
Yeah. I remember , um, learning like in ev in the perspective ev of evolutionary psychology, like, and just how the biology works. Like when, when at least in heterosexual relationships, when a man or woman get together, there's all that charge up front . And then a charge lasts for about a year or so of regular sex keeping the, the, the relationship hot, if you wanna call it that .
And I was learning, it's because after maybe a year and a half or however long it takes for the woman to get pregnant, go through her pregnancy and give birth and raise that child to be about a year old than the chances of survival for that child's skyrocket at a certain point. And somewhere around that point is the point at which the natural high and drive to have sex with each other fades as well too.
So there's this like biological imperative to procreate, stay around, protect, and then move on to, to procreate some more Yes. And perpetuate the species some more. So like, we gotta understand that that's the context science .
That's the context. Yes. And I , I , I've never understood inside of that cycle, you know, scientists talk about it, but the woman is y the man smells different after you have a child with a man. His scent , um, is , it flows differently for you because you're literally looking for another variation, another man to vary the species. You're never trying to procreate with the same man. Mm-hmm . So men need to understand that as well.
All right , Ken . Yes . We're closing in here on the end of this interview. Thank you again so much for being here. This is awesome. And I have another question that's on my list here that I'd like to ask you. And
¶ Are you Non-Monogamous in a Mono Relationship..?
that is, and I think we, we basically already covered it, but do you think it's possible that if somebody's in, well, how to say this? I think different people have different orientations, like relationship orientations, just in the same way. Some people are heterosexual, some people are pansexual, some people are bisexual, homosexual, et cetera , right?
People have possibly different orientations towards different relationship styles, relationship anarchy, monogamy, full on polyamory, non-monogamy, swinging. Like, there's all these different things, right? Mm-hmm . .
So the question is, do you think that it's possible if somebody is , uh, if somebody is actually non-monogamous inside of a monogamous relationship and they, they want to experience sex with other people and their sex is not as heated as it used to be in their monogamous relationship, that somehow having sex with another person could then improve the sex or the libido or the sexual connection with their initial relationship. Does that make sense? It's kind of a lot of words.
Of course. That makes sense. Yeah. I , I I I think that that is , um, too blanket a statement to say mm-hmm . . I think that if that couple is emotionally ready to allow the excess chi to , uh, enliven their relationship, then yes. But if the couple is not emotionally ready, that thing could wreck the relationship. You know, it's not like a guarantee. It's always that you have to have a foundation , um, of divorce proof , you know, unconditional love to, to broaden your relationship, period.
Hmm . or else just forget about polyamory. Do not come over here to polyamory without it honest . You are at risk. Yeah.
Yeah. So it sounds like you don't recommend if somebody's relationship is struggling to open a relationship at that point.
Absolutely not. Cause you're gonna struggle now. You're gonna bring more people into your struggle, into your struggle mansion, get the help you need. Divorce, proof your relationship before you try to do anything else. It's never going to work out. You don't solve a problem by creating more challenges, bigger challenges that you can't even handle the ones in your current relationship.
Hmm . Yeah. So get your relationship back to a state of really good connection and trust before you even think about , uh, non monogamy.
Well, I would say don't get it back to that, cuz if it was ever that it would not stray from that . I'm saying get a foundation under your relationship of real trust. Trust has nothing to do with the other person. . Uh , a lot of people say, well , you gotta build trust. No , you don't have to build trust. Mm-hmm . I have a whole liturgy around trust that has nothing to do with that. Trust is how you trust yourself. What you trust about the universe, what you believe your life is about. .
Okay. So we have flipped all of the Western concepts and we build a foundation beneath couples that actually lead to unconditional love. Hmm . Do that before you do poly please. Yeah .
. So I'm hearing the words, you
¶ Is Trust a Choice?
didn't say this, but sounds like trust is a choice right?
No, trust is not a choice. Trust is understanding what trust means. Hmm . and
What is don't
For us, Taylor , we believe trust means I will trust you. If you prove that you're never gonna do the wrong thing . How ridiculous is that they're do the wrong thing , unquote . And so that's just a faulty definition. Okay. We have to redefine the things to understand what they are before we can actually practically utilize them.
So how would you define trust?
Trust is the , um, trust is an understanding that all things in life are here to grow me. All of my experiences are meant to grow me. I trust that .
Mm . Yeah. I can trust that too.
That means you trust all things and beings then, because all experiences are here to grow you, right?
Yeah. Oh , that's, that's a tall one. That's, that's a tall order. That's hard. And it's also like, it reminds me of, that's kind of what original tantra is too. It's like accepting the beauty, the divinity in all things. Even the really hard stuff. When it's hard learning to interface with it and grow with it and use it for your own growth. You know, catalyze it. Ashay ,
Ashay . Yes.
All right . Kenya , I think that is a, a beautiful spot to wrap up. Thank you so, so much for, for having this conversation, for, for going into all the topics that you went into. Thank you for doing the work that you do. Thank you for helping create a new fabric, a new, new progressive love across the world. Like I really appreciate that. And I wonder, is there anything else you'd like to add here at the end? Before we, before you tell people how to get in touch with you?
No, I just appreciate this platform and I wish we could have done this in Asheville . I gotta come back to Asheville. We need to do stuff, live stuff. All of this Covid stuff is over. Let's get together and take it out into the world.
Yes. , yes to that. Yes to that. Please come back to Asheville. We'll set something up. And so, okay, so how can people find you? How, if they wanna work with you, where, where do they go?
Progressive Love Academy on Instagram, progressive love academy.com. Progressive Love Academy, Google me , my name, Kenya k Stevens. You should find thousands of articles, podcast, and updates.
Awesome. Thank you so much Kenya , and thank you everybody listening. If you like this episode, please shoot me a message. Let me know if you have any questions, thoughts, comments, shoot me a message, let me know and check out all of the links in the description. You'll find ways to contact Kenya and go deeper with all this work too. I hope you all have a beautiful, beautiful rest of your day. Peace. Thank you. I'll see you next time. Before you go, I have a request.
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