Everything About KINK | with Kyle Lovett and Ashley Berry

I'm like , yeah , you can , you can take anything you want .

have . My name is Taylor and I'll be your host on this journey , and it's my goal with each episode to give you practical , actionable things you can start doing today to improve your sex life and your entire life , because a thriving sex life will help you thrive in all areas of your life .

So let's begin today's episode by starting with a deep breath in through the nose , into the belly together , exhaling with an audible sigh , and let's get into today's episode . This conversation was actually inspired by a Facebook post from somebody else many , many , many months ago where somebody said , simply in one sentence , statement kink is a trauma response .

And I thought , oh fuck , that I have to go in there and like , comment and share my opinions . And I ran into Ashley , who's here with us today , and we sort of like , like and appreciated each other's comments and couldn't really get anywhere with the original poster .

So we started a discussion and then eventually I thought you know what this would be , a great podcast discussion . Is kink a trauma response , is it not ? What is it ?

And then turns out , recently I see that , ashley , you have now teamed up with Kyle , who is also here , to host a regular event called kink tank , which is , in my understanding , an opportunity for people to come together online and ask any questions around kink , their kinks , their desires .

What is it , what is it Not , how to do it , that sort of thing , and I thought , wow , how cool would it be to have a conversation with both of you . So I want to say thank you for being here and welcome to the show .

But as somebody who is a kink professional and has really dove deep into this space and found it to be many , many things , including sometimes a trauma response but in my perception that that statement in and of itself is lacking the nuance which would really honor the full spectrum of what kink is , and I can share more about that later .

But that that was the entry point for me is like oh , there's so much more nuance here .

That's really interesting to explore and I'm really , I really take care , and part of why I do this particular work in this particular modality is because it's so amazing for unwinding shame and sometimes comments that have a lack of nuance , like that , and that people can interpret in all these ways and can maybe spark this idea of like oh my God , is there

something wrong with me If I like this ? Am I broken ? Do I need to be fixed ? Is this just a trauma , even if I'm just enjoying myself and it doesn't seem like there's trauma , like ?

So that to me feels really important to open those conversations and dispel anything that could perpetuate a shame cycle for people , because the entire for me , like the kind of underpinnings of this work is , is liberating ourselves to feel more radical self acceptance and not feeling shame for what we might like or feel drawn towards .

And so when I hear that just like blunt statement , yeah , there's just as Ashley said , there's so many nuances in between and there's so much power that , like that particular topic and umbrella , which I'm sure we'll get into , like really what that is and what it means .

But kink as a tool is , has been the frame of reference for me and my experience over the last decade of like being within the kink scene and the lifestyle and then moving into it professionally .

And so I'm just like , oh , to just have like a blanket statement it it doesn't , it doesn't give room for all of the in-betweens and all of the other sides of things .

And it is true , like it has truly been the play space and the and the like , the opening in my personal life of empowerment , liberation , and like self expression while unwinding shame , which Ashley touched into , like everything she said yes , and like it's just been such a vital part of my own like healing of my own traumas and my own relationship to my body .

And so that statement is like , yeah , it just just pulls in my heart because there's so much in there and I just am like , oh , there's just so much , and I understand why that would be said and I understand why that would be like a very good topic to like dive into in a deeper level .

It is , I think , it's really important to talk about because there is so much in there and there's so much shame wrapped up in it and there's so much fear and misunderstanding and just like all of these other things around this particular world .

Like one is like there's a seed of truth in that that we can unpack , and then there's all these other truths simultaneous and the way I'm perceiving reality , like we all play our roles , and so , whether or not I agree with a statement or the energy behind it , I do appreciate those folks who are willing to place their in characters that catalyze conversations

that can deepen our understanding , even if it's not the way that I would do it . Like I honor that there is a place for that and that it's brought us to this conversation here , which I'm excited about having . So totally . Yeah .

Well , I have a history of engaging with them and I have since realized that I should actually be much more intentional with how much I engage statements like that , just because they're everywhere .

But for me , when I saw that , yeah , I just felt frustrated immediately because to me , like what I made it mean , and when I read some of her comments underneath and some of the other comments that were there , I interpreted that as meaning oh , therefore it's bad . Right , Kink is a trauma response .

That means there is something wrong with you if you like anything other than like missionary sex between a man and a woman for the sake of procreation . Right , Because when I like dive into my thoughts around what kink is like , kink ultimately it seems like a subjective thing . Right ?

Like doggy style position could be kinky for somebody and it might not be for somebody else . Like getting tied up and chains could be kinky for somebody and it might not be for somebody else .

So it's this entire subjective realm that's anything outside of , in my opinion , what like original , like purity culture has said is sex , and then we sort of like demonize it or pathologize it and say , oh well , there must be something wrong with you if you like getting choked , you know .

Or there must be something wrong with you if you like to be dominated and and experience that , and perhaps maybe there's some reason that you got drawn to that . That's that you're working on healing through that experience .

Or maybe you're just somebody in life who's a really powerful person leading a business and you're always in the control position and you just want to experience what it's like to not be in control , Like maybe that's it and maybe it's fun , Maybe it's playful that way .

So yeah , I'll pause there and yeah , and say thanks for sharing and I wonder if you'd both give just a little bit of a background . If I remember correctly , you're both professional .

Is it dominatrixes or switches ? And could you explain what that means ?

But also , the longer I work as a pro dom , the more my my desire for more spaces where I can experience submission happens , and I've been diving deeper into that lately and I'm like I think I'm actually a sub leaning switch that's a pro dom that works as a pro dom , which is a fun juxtaposition of things and what does that ? mean . What does that mean ?

It means I enjoy being in the dominant position , being in the submissive position , being atop , being a bottom . Some of them intersect with different activities , like I enjoy choking somebody else and being choked . I enjoy giving heavy impact play with like a flogger or paddle or something .

I'm learning my own relationship with receiving that , but I I don't tend to enjoy receiving heavy impact play right , but so there's a . There's an enjoyment available in both of those positions and specifically in the switch position where it starts to become that dance .

And in my personal relationships I explore this more with other people who are switchy where it's like there's such a sweet spot Once there's a clearly established role of like I'm in the dominant role and I'm in the submissive role when we could switch and be doing that in real time .

It becomes this real dance of who's leading and following anybody who has a dance background as well , or I do a lot of contact improvisation , like there's this magic space that opens where you're kind of synced and able to move between these two seeming poles , and that's one of my favorite spaces .

So I could geek out on that , but I won't go too far there . In the intro I'll say that as a professional dominatrix . How I would define that is that I create and hold containers for people to explore . Submission is commonly part of that , but sometimes people just have a specific fetish or interest activity that they want to explore .

But my role in a professional sense is to make sure that we're having really clear communication , really clear negotiations , where we're outlining what do you want to do , how do you want to feel , what are your boundaries and limits , and even that first threshold I've found is incredibly connecting and can be really healing and liberating for people just to have those

conversations . And then I offer hands on experiential guided sessions where people , to whatever degree they want , can just hand over the reins for a minute and feel held and guided . And then the content of what that might include in terms of certain activities is runs the full gamut . Awesome , yeah . And then the last piece .

I'll say which will kind of just contextualize my relationship with Kyle is that I've also been really enjoying doing King education work , running workshops , mentoring other people who are interested in getting into this work , coaching people who want to discover their relationship to arrows or power or the dynamics that are happening in their personal relationships and maybe

don't want to do it professionally but are finding a lot of juice in what they can discover about themselves and their self development through this .

And then Kyle and I have been partnering and doing that together to be able to offer more of that and more spaces for people who might not be wanting or even ready for a full on BDSM session , but are like I want to have these conversations and I want to know more about what's here , because there's something that is pulling me which I know Kyle , you have

some beautiful things to share about feeling that pulse and being like I don't know why , but I need to follow this impulse .

Yeah , I ended up in this work and in this conversation right now because of a pulse and an intuitive hit that I needed to like follow this thing and go into a dungeon with a friend and then I needed to keep going and then I needed to like you know , like I was like I want to explore and play and watch and whoa , it just like overtook my whole like I

don't know what this is , but something is changing inside of me and I am like extremely fascinated and turned on and excited and curious . And it was just like all these things created , like creativity . It was like all this stuff started to happen .

And yeah , it's been almost a decade of being kind of immersed in that world and I definitely went through the lifestyle section of the kink BDSM world .

There's kind of like the professional and the lifestyle and they definitely can intermix , but there's also like a lot of compartmentalization around it as well and so for many years it was just a lifestyle piece for me of exploration and trying on all of the different roles and learning all of the different skills and the tools and the like like , just like building

this collection .

It was just like part of who I was and what started to happen as I started to like mentor people into the world and bring them into it and like support people and educate people , and like I ended up being like supporting people and practicing dominating for the first time or practicing submitting for the first time , and it just became this like playful thing .

And then I was like this is like my dharma , like I need to be doing this .

I love this so much and it brings me incredible joy in all directions to just like create spaces for people to explore sides of themselves that they may have never told anyone that they're interested in , or they've been in full shame around , or they haven't even like accepted about themselves and they didn't even know it was possible until they see it or they hear

that that's acceptable or adorable or exciting to me , right , or to like other people . So it just became this like oh my gosh , I have to do this , I love this .

And Ashley came into my field and like we were actually in ceremony and like we're very like spiritual based and very connected in with the like New Age spiritual community and like Tantra and like all of these other realms and so to meet someone that was in that world , in the other worlds that I was in , was like like my brain was like oh my God , who is

this person ? I think I introduced myself and I was . She was like I don't know an integration . You were like I'm a dominatrix and I was like Bing and came up to her and I was like Hi , I'm Kyle and I'm kinky . And she literally put my phone number in her phone as like kinky Kyle and I was like that was the weirdest intro ever .

We've been on this funny journey of just like realizing that like we have so much experience in certain realms that like the other doesn't , and it like is this like gorgeous kind of meeting in the middle of like bringing bringing all that we have together to this like wholeness , and kind of merging those worlds and just like being able to , yeah , being able to

be the fullest expression of ourselves together and in our separate work ? It's like we've just yeah , it's just like up leveled us exponentially in what we can offer and and how we can do it by kind of like doing this like merge thing and and starting holistic kink .

And so I I I call myself a professional switch and holistic kink practitioner and I like to be on both sides and I like to support people being either in the dominant position or the submissive submissive position or wrangling the brat inside of me , because the brat is the natural state of me . So I am amazing .

. We did a scene . The other day we were with a client and one of the things that we also love doing is demos just for people to witness , because there's so much that can be experienced and learned and like sparked off as like , oh my god , I never thought about that .

And we did an impact play scene and I went through multiple tools , increasing intensity , just for you know , safety of the body and the skin . You have to warm the body up . But when I got to I think it was the dragon's tongue , which is a form of a whip . It's kind of like a soft tailed whip that gives a more acute stingy sensation .

I reached this threshold and Kyle reached this threshold with the amount of intensity of sensation that she was experiencing that I watched the brat get activated .

I mean , I don't remember what you said , but basically there's a form of resistance that comes up that becomes a material to play with because there's some people might just go into like a fully receptive , like I'm here .

It might be devotional , it might be service oriented , it might just be like full meditation , where there's not any resistance , they're just kind of receiving whatever it is they've asked for that you're offering them . But the brats got . I mean , do you remember what you did or said in that moment ? Great , what was it ?

So there was this pressure of your foot and my back against it . So that's a great example of the brat energy of just there is resistance to the thing being shared .

So it's like okay , I'm at submissive state and then the brat comes on when the dominant or someone on the top position is telling me to do something and I'm like no , or I don't , or I do it in a way that's annoying , or I do it like like I've done that with , I love doing that with her . Actually , she'll tell me something .

She'll be like okay , neil , it might like put I don't remember a specific but like she'll tell me something very specific to do and then I'll do it , but in a way that's like only the words she said I'm obeying , but I'm like doing it in an annoying way .

She's like come over here , but I like come over there and I like put my finger there instead of my whole body or something you know . It's like I know what she means .

So I'm just it's like I'm I'm inviting in the like rebellious teenager energy which has been incredibly healing , and just accepting that that's part of like my natural state and a lot of arenas and a lot of relationships and like dynamics . I freaking love it . So that's my brat .

And so then I get to learn more about my own parts like oh , how do I respond to that impulse ? And what I love about scenes and the scene is just a word , for we're creating a container , we're agreeing to what we're going to do within it .

There's improvisation that happens , but there are some basic parameters and usually time bound in some way , and there's a threshold crossing into the container and we act out this scene that we've agreed on , and then there's a clear closing of the container after so , just to define the overview of a scene .

But what I love about scene work in that way whether it includes clues , role plays or or whatever we're choosing is that I think of it like sexy parts work for anybody who's into internal family systems or parts work that to me and I'll probably share some element of this when I share a story about parts that I've gotten to integrate , that I've been able to

touch into and become aware of in therapy sort of settings , but not integrate and embody to the level that I can in a kink scene and I also imagine that anyone would like acting backgrounds or places where you really get to go fully into a character . There's a merging and ability to express in that space .

So I and have been inspired by Kyle's expression of her brat part to actually like discover my own more and realize where there was shame around , that like it's not okay to be a brat . I'm going to be punished for being a brat . This isn't something that people enjoy .

So it has been deeply healing for me to enjoy somebody else's brat and then wire that in to like , oh , if I enjoy it , then maybe I could be enjoyed for that part .

And then to experience people enjoying that part of me has gone directly to that like seven year old or nine year old that had a very different experience of being a brat and to be met with like , oh , you probably just need to know where the boundaries are .

You might not feel safe or this might be a way of playing and you want to be sassy and like that's a beautiful part of you and I love that . So there's a lot of rewiring that I've experienced with that particular archetype , but in a lot of different ways .

I'm curious if you're noticing trends Like are there people asking , are there similar questions that show up each time ? Are there ? Yeah , you're both nodding . So , yeah , be curious about those . Like what are some of the things that regularly come up that you find yourself talking about or answering or wanting to go into more depth with ?

And then it turned into like this deep desire to just have this ongoing discussion group forum like place where people of all levels can come in and like be with people that are in that community , people that are curious about it . They can ask us questions , they can ask each other questions , like we can inspire each other with our stories .

It was kind of like okay , we want to actually that . It's like our greatest joy .

It's so much fun to have those conversations together and then to bring in other people and to have it be a co-creative space is just incredibly inspiring and it has been for us , and so it's definitely leading us into connecting it to a podcast as well , so that we can continue , because the theme is that every time we get off of the kink tank , we just are

like flooded with so many more things that we want to talk about and so many questions that were either answered in a tiny way or there's so many those nuances , the like , endless nuances , with these like kink questions or topics or anything . There's so many different things and we're just two people and so it's like , just like it , just it's so exciting .

So to like merge it with we have a topic , we really get into it and we definitely seeing it going into like there will be .

There's a theme of like a lot of curiosity right now . I feel like actually you can attest to like there's a lot of new energy of like . I see what y'all are doing . I think I'm really interested . I've played with like a partner before , but I want to get , I want to have more education or I want to do it safer .

I want to unwind the shame that I know I have , but I want to like unwind it so I can be more connected to my partner and bed or right , like there's so many of these , I've tasted it . I want to know more and I want to do it in a way that's conscious and a way that's like connected and grounded and like clear .

And yeah , is there anything else , ashley , that you can add to that ?

But I'm definitely noticing a pattern of people who are either intrigued or have just started this or have maybe dabbled some but want to go deeper , that the way we've created this container seems to be drawing people who are like this feels like a safe enough place to dip my toes in , and so it goes from like the basic definitions , like wait , can you just

define what all of these things are ? And we just want to understand what this world is and what these things mean , like what's a flogger and , yeah , what is a switch and what's the difference between Dom and Sub and top and bottom . So there's some of those like logistical questions .

But then people also are really sharing vulnerably and I'm finding a lot of threads there with people who have both had these amazing opening experiences and who are also looking for really safe places to explore this , because bless the kink community for really leading the charge on consent conversations in a lot of ways , and I think the lineage of this practice is

one of the biggest inspirations , I think , for the level of consent conversations we're having now . There's this built-in structure that has been there for many , many , many years , that we're constantly evolving together in community and , like anything , there's a spectrum of the way that people hold that and people's level of understanding .

So we are also getting a lot of people that are even wanting feedback about like where are resources where I can go in my community where I can experience this , what kind of practitioners are good to work with and how do I know how to ask the right question to find the right practitioner for me ? And yeah , so there's a lot of that level of questioning .

And then all the way to people who are like I'm doing this scene , I want to know how I can get even more into the psychology of this and like what's here and available and exploring the nature of the human psyche and the realm of the unconscious or the subtleties of consent or the subtleties of sensation , and so we can get into like nitty-gritty with

supporting people to develop their scenes and their play as well .

It's a 10 week journey for men to become the best lovers they can possibly be , to master their sexual energy in the bedroom , to overcome premature ejaculation , overcome erectile dysfunction , experience full body orgasms full body non-exaculatory orgasms and to be the man who blows his lover's minds . The second course is semen retention mastery .

This is an intelligent lifestyle design course where you get to master the art of sexual energy transmutation and really build up your life force and direct it into your business , your creative projects , your mission , whatever it is that you want to really excel at and thrive in your life , so you can live the life you truly want .

So if you want to check those out , there are links in the episode description and , with all that being said , thank you again . Let's get back to today's episode . What is kink ? I mean , I would be curious to hear what you would say , you know .

There's all these different segments and kink for me has been a place where I could explore and heal and learn and grow and unwind shame and freaking play , adult play , being center of the moments and the scenes , and it's continuously evolving and it's continuously supporting my own being and then now my clients and people that are interested in being in this work

or hiring people in this work to like find and develop different parts of themselves . I love that you said like it's like sexy parts work , because that has been what kink has been for me . And it's this like invitation for platonic play all the way through full arrows and leading into like extreme , blissful , transcendental sexual experiences .

Like it can be from one end of the scale to the other .

And I always love bringing in the fact that kink does not mean sex to a lot of people when they're caught when they're talking about kink and for a long time for me it had absolutely nothing to do with sex and then it's like later on I was like , oh , I'm going to explore this with like sexual partners now it was definitely a solo journey and a journey

with like friends and deep friendships , and so I like to make sure that that's shared when I explain kink , because a lot of people culturally , when you hear kink you think about like wild sex , like bondage and sex , and there's sex has to be a part of that and it absolutely can be and it is a .

It can be an incredible tool and like exploration within the bedroom and within partnership or sexual relationships , but it's a spectrum it's a spectrum like all the things .

It's always somebody's in some sort of sexy outfit or lingerie or like black pants or they have like a leather wristband on or something . I've never seen somebody talking about kink wearing a Christmas sweater .

I didn't play , I didn't take off my pants , I was literally just going to be in a room full of adults playing to decompress after a long day , and so it's like every time , it's like absolutely the culture around kink and the like way that media and like a lot of people express it absolutely wraps up in like sexuality and empowerment and like feeling like hot

and dominating or whatever archetype you're working on or wanting to bring into your life . All of that is true , and I've seen a lot of people in kinky spaces in sweatpants having a grand old time or just like sweatpants and like tying someone up , you know , like in , like practicing ropes and like bondage .

It's like it can also be that I mean we , literally we literally had a shared client recently .

for a session , especially holding it as a professional . It's like I don't feel any pressure to dress any way other than what I want to .

It kind of is nice , it goes with the territory , Like some people will make requests but I'm like no , you're coming to see me because I'm a dom , so I'm going to do what I want within the realm of your consent , but like I want to wear what feels good to me and so often it's like there are things I might not wear in my day to day life that I get

to put this character on who's not fake , like it's a part of me but it's a part that until I started doing this work didn't get to step into in the same way and really there's like for a lot of people I think there's like a fake it to you . Make it too Like . Just try this , this mask on , try this outfit on . How does it feel ?

Look in the mirror like play with your voice tone and your . I mean I do that before sessions . I'm like phew , like cross the threshold , put on an outfit Like I'm going to play with this part of me today and she might talk differently and move differently and stand differently than day to day Ashley would .

But then when I go back to day to day , ashley , I have more options to play with because I've created those containers for those archetypes to develop more .

Being human on this planet is an experience where everything is pretty kinked , like there are moments where we find these pathways where there's total congruence and coherence and like that's a and we're really connected with our divinity and whatever you believe about that .

But I think we've all had those moments where it's just like things are quiet and still and it's like , wow , everything is coherent . And in witnessing the world internally , externally , clearly there's a lot of shit happening on this planet that is fucked .

And to me I'm like I chose to come here to experience this and if I can have kink as a somewhat controlled , experimental place to explore all of those archetypes , to explore those primal parts , to explore my predator , like what's the part of me that like wants to play with violence but doesn't want to cause harm , and if I give that part an outlet , then

that's not coming out sideways in the world

. I think so much of what comes out in the world that it causes harm are these primal aspects of us as creatures who are still like connecting our limbic brain with our prefrontal cortex and working on ascension or integration or whatever you want to call that .

We cannot deny that there are still primal animal impulses there and I think it's a beautiful thing to want to transcend or be in relationship with those in a different way , and it's also a fucking amazing thing to express them and to gain mastery over them through that kind of practice .

That happens when we have a conversation about like what are you a yes and what are you a no for , and then , like , we get to let it out and I think sexually as well just to like I echo what Kyle said about it it can be completely non sexual , but sexually , for me , kink has been a space that has unlocked a lot of portals for arousal that I didn't

realize how much creativity and imagination and I'm a total sapiosexual like getting off on intellectual play and being able to bring those elements in or have pleasurable sensation that's not just focused on genital stimulation and get to feel arousal pathways from , like my fingertips through , like , the entire nervous system and really go into the subtleties of sensation by

creating a space where the explicit focus doesn't have to be on penis and vagina penetration and that can be even hotter once we're like in a space of like I fucking love teasing denial .

I'm like I want you to bring me to a place where I'm like begging for it and then when there's finally a penetration , that happens like the amount of sensation and activation that can happen there after all of that build up and all of this other creative play and bringing more parts of me online .

So it's like I get more of my partner , my partner gets more of me . Because we're kind of asking these questions or playing in these realms where I'm like , oh , this one is here and in this part is here , and you get to experience more of me .

Whereas , like , without at least allowing ourselves the possibility of being creative and seeing what we might like , it's really easy to get in these ruts of how we engage in sexual connection , which can often go into a place of performance , because it's like this is what it's supposed to be and even if it's not what I'm feeling like this is what it is , and

so busting out of that creates not only more arousal , but it's building new neural pathways where , like , oh , I don't actually have to be in this rut of how I've experienced this if I don't want to be .

And , yeah , the world there is a lot of really fucked up stuff happening in the world and we live in a society that's really , I would say , has a lot of fucked up views about sex and intimacy and needs and desires and anything other than just , oh , stay in your nice quiet little box and don't disturb other people .

Like you talked about that sort of primal , animalistic , predator drive Like that's fucking amazing to explore . How many people have ever done that ?

Probably very few have really tapped into that and I'm seeing kink umbrella term as it's the container to explore all these different parts of ourself that we might never otherwise be able to but that do impact our lives and our relationships on a regular basis .

So better to explore them with consciousness and have them unconsciously driving our behaviors right , and through the exploration there can also be joy and pleasure and connection and pain , but pleasurable pain and healing and growth . And yeah , that's just

I think . Yeah , I'll pause there . See if anything comes up for either of you that just felt like it wanted to come through and share that piece .

So , like that talk about the heart pull that you were speaking to Kyle , like that to me , like really gets into my heart space , just in terms of the world that I wanna live in and my own inclination to show up and create in a way that serves a more consent-based reality , and that honoring the places where we're not quite there yet and humbling ourselves to

practice and having a space to practice and knowing that creating new neural pathways and new patterns works faster and better when it's paired with pleasure , is like a no-brainer Really . That's a no-brainer to put those things together Plus , just to speak to the play piece . Play is our first mode of learning .

We learn through play , and when we lose that , as so often happen as adults , it's just so glorious to be able to express and watch how quickly learning and integration happens and , as a sexual being , to be able to even return to moments when we were curious and wanting to explore our sexuality .

And then , through a culture of so many , people who are conditioned in certain ways with shame or lack of understanding , or it belongs here , whatever it is , to not be met with equal curiosity or permission to express those part of ourselves , to then circle back later and be able to have permission . It just rewires the whole thing .

And then one other thing it brought up for me is compassion . If I go into the part of me that authentically is capable of being a predator in some way , and I'm doing it in a place that's committed to like that in a predator , I mean like tying somebody up and wrestling them until they're exhausted and playing that role , but I get to actually access that .

And accessing it not only integrates it for me , but it helps give me some frame of reference for what I'm seeing outpictured in the world and have compassion for how powerful that energy is and how , without proper guidance , that can go astray .

So it's like then when I'm looking at people who are causing harm , there's a little bit of a different lens on like where that might be coming from and how that might integrate .

I'd like to try that with my partner . What do I do ? I don't know how to do that . I could play that role of that person or I don't know like I think it would be great . How would you tell somebody to explore that safely and full of pleasure with their partner ? How would you guide them into that ? What steps would be important to think about ?

What conversations would need to be had ? What does that even look like ? What could that look like ? That would be really cool to be able to give somebody . Like here's something you can take away and try this . So I'm gonna pass it back to both of you .

And it's really fun to actually , if there's certain animals that we can go into a brief meditation and be like , okay , if you were prey whether it's a visualization or however , someone gets into that and it might be just like starting with , like get on your hands and knees and start to crawl around and what do you feel like ? Do you feel like a sloth ?

Do you feel like a bunny rabbit ? Do you feel like and it might , you know that's an example that can be . An easier access point to the primal place is going into connection with the animal archetypes , how they move and how they express .

And then the predator might be like I feel like a big cat and then just chasing each other , for example , like okay , one person be the prey and like I'm gonna be whatever , whatever kind of animal I wanna be and I'm gonna try to capture you and you're gonna try to get away from me , and so that might look like them , like literally , like running away and

like going and like grabbing and like tackling them to the ground and being mindful of body parts and , you know , doing that in a way that learning how to fall is helpful , but yeah , even something as simple as that , or like both people crawling on all fours and one people being in the position of like I'm stalking you , is like such a simple access point .

And from there , once you're in those roles , what I notice usually is like there are certain impulses that will come up .

That's like , oh , I wanna like pull your hair and turn you down and like bite your neck right now , and just giving space to follow those impulses and , ideally , checking in beforehand If there's anything that you definitely know you wouldn't want someone to do . But sometimes in the beginning exploration , you don't know what those things are .

So that's where we'll use yellow and red and yellow being the pause button and just agreeing if that was the only agreement that people made , if they didn't have the intel about their own proclivities beforehand to be like call yellow or say pause anytime something doesn't feel good and then we'll have a check in about it and then we'll go back in to .

I'll just leave that there as like one potential entry point .

The other person is maybe , who knows , like a cheetah or something , crawling from behind , like seeing the little rabbit for the first time and then like prouncing after , going after and chasing around the house and that sounds really fun .

It sounds like a really fun thing to do and I imagine I could see like , yeah , that could totally stay in the platonic playful wrestle realm . I could see that going the sexual way too , but that's just , it's fun to kind of think about that out loud . Kyle , what would you add to this practice ?

And so to even just have like the mentality , like having the conversation , having all of the things and even chasing each other around , but having one person be like the stalker and the like hunter of someone that's agreeing to be the hunted and to just be in that energy exchange without the animal piece , can also be incredibly , like surprisingly arousing for

people . Or also in that initial conversation or after the fact it could be , now we switch . So now I've explored that version of myself . I want you to explore that with me . Why don't you chase me now around the house and like , what do you want to do with my body if you actually catch me ?

There's this like this moment in that kind of chase , no matter what the lens is of once you even catch up to the prey or the person being hunted , it's like well then there's that moment of like . It's like when you're a kid and you're like you like play tag and you like tagger it .

It's like there's even more opportunity to like let your impulses be there , Even in the like person being caught . It's like maybe my impulses to like push them away , or maybe it's to like surrender and do exactly what they say .

It's like there's all of these like moments of potential , of exploring and learning a lot about yourself that could absolutely easily like go into sexual , sexual , erotic kind of experiences together and to just like have .

I think it's really important to at least play with both sides of it , to really feel those energies within ourselves , no matter what gender identity you have or like what partner you know . Like it's yeah .

It's like just smelling and then maybe just tasting , you know , and like using your teeth , like in different ways , and there's all these kinds of ways to use every single sense to explore those energies consciously . And you can have conversations about like where are you okay with me smelling you ? Or where are you okay with me like using my mouth on you ?

You know , like all over . So that can absolutely be . That's a . Really . I love that practice . I love that experience .

And the other one goes into the mindset of , like I'm discovering this creature for the first time and I don't have words to get to know them through conversation . How do I use all five senses in this sense ? of like what is this being ? How does it move ? How does it smell Like ? That to me , is like ugh .

It's such a yummy place , in a different way , to get to know each other's bodies and systems as well .

And the sticking point for me is I want to really recommend I'm sure you're both include this in the work you do . But , like , the wheel of consent is a really magnificent , powerful tool and , prior to me , learning that like that fundamentally changed my entire experience of life , but also sex .

When I learned about this , and prior to learning about it , whenever I would be in a sexual experience , I would cross different things up , like , for example , if I were to be going down on my partner , I would be enjoying that , but I would be trying to do it for her .

You know , oh , I'm trying to please her , I'm trying to make her feel really good , but at the same time , I'm trying to get pleasure out of it , and because both of those things are happening at once without awareness , like neither one of them is as good as it could be , so I'm seeing you know , if I'm the predator and I go and catch my prey and I don't

know that it's actually okay for me to just take from my partner for my own pleasure , you know , assuming you've talked about it beforehand , then I might try to like oh , now , what do I do ?

I guess maybe I need to massage their shoulders or I need to do something that makes them feel good , you know , and then it might change like then , all of a sudden you're out of a predator dynamic , right . All of a sudden you're into the giving or the caretaking or something like that dynamic .

And so I would say that there's a great video on YouTube by Betty Martin , all about the Wheel of Consent . I'd say , go watch that before you try this . I don't know if you would agree . I see you both nodding for like Absolutely .

And nobody's ever talked about this ? Like what the fuck is wrong ? Like this should be an elementary education , you know .

After you learn about the Wheel of Consent , to really tune in to why we do what we do , what turns us on about it , A big part of like my own personal experience is realizing that giving someone pleasure is something that really turns me on . So I do that for my pleasure a lot of the time and it's not actually for like , it is for their pleasure .

But it's like mixed in and to be able to like tell sexual partners or even clients where I want you to use my body for your pleasure and that's gonna bring me so much pleasure . It's like that can be a whole rewiring of like . Are you sure I'm like , yeah , you can take anything you want . You know Like and these are you know it's just like .

It can be a full rewiring .

Having those conversations when you're not in the middle of it , or stopping when you catch the prey and figuring it out , or like decompressing .

It's like to have those conversations and really deep , go into yourself , have your own conversation with yourself and like journal about it and like really feel into like what really brings you joy , what really turns you on , what you really enjoy about seeing and feeling in your partner or your sexual experiences , or like what intrigues you .

It's like all of those pieces within the Wheel of Consent is a freaking phenomenal baseline I feel like really important , like foundational resource to really be able to even like step into a lot of exploration , especially when it comes to kink . So yeah , that's what I'll say on that .

, non-consensual objectification doesn't feel great for a lot of people and consensual objectification can feel fucking amazing and it's like one of my favorite things is having these brain fritz moments .

And another great resource is Existential Kink by Dr Carolyn Elliott , where you're basically looking at the things that you're resisting or the things that come into your world that you're like , oh , why does this keep happening ?

And then it's like , oh , because I like it , because I think it's fucking hot and I just had so like objectification I think is one of those amazing things where just exploring , okay , what if I say , objectify me ?

And then like having a moment of being aroused by it and being like what I actually do , like that , and maybe I've just been told that I don't like that or I don't like it in the way that it's been done , but there's other ways . And I recently found this with rejection . This was such an exciting moment for me this week .

It's like , oh , I actually love , like there's a part of me that loves rejection , and so something like a teasing denial or like dynamic or like become going into like this devotional , submissive position , and even it's like getting to the place of begging , like I want your attention , I want you to fuck me , like I want these things .

And being told no , the level that I got to with it recently just blew my fucking mind . I was like , oh my God , like as somebody with like ADHD and who's had rejection sensitivity in all these ways , I was like , oh shit , I finally found the way to enjoy it .

And now it's like I just had a conversation with a lover last night that I was like I really want you to tell me no , I really want you to deny me . Like how long can you do that ? Because , like there's some juice in here that I'm excited about exploring . Yeah , interesting .

You are certain that you do not like to have a place or container or space or partner or professional to go into that thing so that you can consensually be with it can be so transformational as well .

So if it's objectification and you hate getting catcalled and you're so tired of how men look at you or whatever it is , or how women want you as a man to be in a certain way all the time and whatever , it is providing and protecting and always being strong . Yeah , you need to provide and protect . Don't cry or wait .

Whatever it is the cultural conditioning of like I don't like that and I want to move through that , or I want to work through that , or I'm actively working through that to have a container where that is invited into its entirety to go into and you can consensually rewrite that freaking story .

You can walk into that and respond in the way that you wish you would have . You know , like . Those are the kinds of things that are possible within sexual romantic relationships , within kink , platonic professional dynamics or lifestyle dynamics . It's like there's just so that's like that also around .

If you can't get to the existential like oh , I like this thing that I thought I hated .

That sometimes comes after the rewrite of it and realizing if I can like , come on the other end of it and be invited into the other side of it , then I can actually learn to like , like it or appreciate it or think it when it happens in the day to day life and be like . I know what I'm gonna say later .

How many ways do you wanna try setting this boundary and where does it feel uncomfortable ? Where do you go into a freeze or a fawn or a fight , and what other options are available ? There is super valuable , yeah .

Like I wanna let my desire get big enough that I can experience what it's like at that level without having what I want , in a way that can preemptively it's like it satiates but cuts off the desire , and I'm interested in being in relationship with the energy of desire .

So if I have somebody else holding a container of certain parameters or boundaries where that can grow and that's one thing I'll say for so many of the a lot of my clients are men and cisgender men and I love working with people of all genders , but that's a lot of .

Who comes is that's one of the things I see consistently over and over again is somebody like oh my goodness , I can come and have somebody else hold boundaries , hold their own boundaries , create a conversation that's clear , where we have an understanding of what the boundaries are beforehand , so they know where they can and can't explore , but then , inside of that ,

be invited into me saying I want you to let your desire get as big as you want it to be and not have to tiptoe around whether or not you're going to elicit some kind of reaction , or like it's my role in a professional sense to say I know where my lines are and hopefully that gives you a sense of safety where you can let yourself find out what's there .

When you let your desire get as big as it is and know that I'll tie you up if I need to , or like I'll hit the pause button if I need to , but that not having to care , take for the other person's boundaries , having some opportunity to do that , to just discover the self , is like is really really powerful . Yeah .

Like that could be rich in a way that you just couldn't have from somebody else . In the same way , it's nice to have a therapist instead of going to your partner with all your problems . Exactly , yeah , similar sort of thing , cool yeah . Thank you both so much for this conversation .

It's been really rich and I've learned some really cool things and I love that . We got into that exercise and I imagine if people want to dive more deeply into this stuff , they could come to your kink tank events and or reach out to you in whatever ways you'd like . We'll obviously put all those links in the show notes , but what would you like to share ?

Do you have anything coming up that you want to tell people about , any particular ways that people could find you ? That sort of thing .

So we're kind of looking towards something in LA in the spring , in probably somewhere in Northern California on the East Coast , and we'll have all of those things listed there . And then we're also available for both kink consultations or guided sessions as our pro-dom or pro-switch or intimacy coach selves , and that's all outlined there , yeah .

I'll definitely check that out and get back with you and check out Ashley and Kyle's work the Kink Tank and thank you so much . I'll see you next time .