If you think talking about finances in general is hard, try talking to your parents about money. What you don't want to do is like, do you have any money? What's going on? You don't want to come at them. in a more adversarial way. Or as I said, you don't want to come out like you're now the parent. What to do about the ups and downs of your 401k. If you... or someone you care about plans to retire soon. That's on the next Explain It To Me. New episodes every Sunday morning.
This week on A Touch More, we are live at Deep Blue's Business of Women Sports Summit. Our special guest is Chelsea Clinton, who tells us what it means for her to be an investor in women's sports and what we can all learn from gutsy women. Plus, we break down the results of the WNBA draft and look ahead to the W's upcoming season. Check out the latest episode of A Touch More wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube.
Hey, everyone. Welcome to Serve. You should be happy that you didn't hear the 10 minutes of conversation we had pre-show. It was disgusting. So we're walking through what to do with this week's show. And we are generally give ourselves some credit. We're generally pretty thoughtful. And it is we are at this point where we'll do a whole lot of research to be well studied on. like a PTPA lawsuit episode so that we generally get it right.
you know? And then we'll do a fan Q and a show where John Wertheim asks, how many tennis shoes do pro tennis players go to? And guess what gets four X the hits. Shoes. Not the thing we've spent time on, Producer Mike. No. Not that it's how many shoes. Do players go through? JW, there's a one welcome to there's a red light on your face. Are you okay? Are you being held against your will? We're a red light.
I'm in Switzerland, so you know I'm not going to be held against my will. I can walk around at midnight with my wallet out and don't worry about my safety. I'm not sure where the red light's coming from. I blame this.
hotel that also has internet that seems to go out every 15 minutes so uh consider that a heads up well that should be great for a show that relies on the internet um yeah so so this whole week and mike has put together We were going to do our initial show thought and we can still do it at some point, but I don't think I'm, you know, bearing anything was. a tinfoil hot episode with producer Mike and basically the acquisitions of the Miami and Madrid tournaments.
And how what's the play on that with our Emmanuel, who's, by the way, reading up for that show that we're now not doing because people just want to know how many shoes tennis players go through is is his quote. When answering a question about how stuff gets done in Hollywood, he said, I'm the juice. Yeah, that's how that was at the Wall Street.
Journal article that- I'm the juice. And you can't really argue with them. You can't argue it. That's already gold right there. So Mike spent no less, just judging by the email you sent and how detailed it was, you spent no less than 12 hours. prepping for the show that we're now not going to do because nobody would listen to it. Yeah. But I'm a lot smarter now. Yeah. A lot smarter. A lot smarter. Yeah. Um, anyways, so what are we doing today instead? Uh, well, so our fans.
were gracious enough to give us a top 10 greatest matches list. Wait, so you asked what and then they responded. We posted on our socials. with some suggestions, but also asked for write-ins. Give us your greatest match of all time. And so we had kind of like a mixture of different matches that are pretty obvious ones, but then asked for a lot of write-ins. We had over 2,500 votes and write-ins over the several posts. And for context, less people are polled for who will be our next president.
uh, then responded to this poll. So we're, we're essentially a superpower. Good sample size. We're a superpower as long as we're not talking about anything important. Shoes. Yeah. Shoes. How many shoes did you wear? Yeah. Um, Okay, so the question was, what are the best matches of all time? Not like...
What was your most formative match or what was your greatest match of all time? You don't want to know how the 1989 French Open quarterfinal between Michael Chang and even Lendl changed my life. That's not what we're interested in.
Greatest match of all time. That is what we asked everyone. We're not interested in the first match I ever watched start to finish was Agassi and Ivan Izovich in the 92 Wimbledon final when Andre had only started playing Wimbledon in 1991 and made the quarters to everyone's surprise.
Yeah. As you were. I am interested in that though. Okay. What was the final score? Uh, I think it was like, it was a break in the fifth. He hit a return and, uh, even he's a bitch dump to volley to lose. So it was had to be like six, four in the fifth. Something like that. Andre, uh, it was a great breakthrough. Yeah. It was a long time coming. We can talk about that. But just to be clear, there's no context here, right? We didn't say... Men, women, major, best of five, this is just a...
Throw out question. Just a throw out question. Super simple. Let's hear the. We're not interested in how that 92 Wimbledon was like one of the greatest upsets in history, just because we thought Andre Agassi when he was ranked three in the world at 18 years old in 1988.
was going to be destined to win the U.S. Open, the French Open, you know, making the final multiple years in a row and losing in 1990 to Andreas Gomez, losing in 1991 to Jim Currier. But then no chance on grass. And his first major win was Wimbledon in 1992, obviously. Go, Mike. You should have written that in. Okay. All right. All right. So the way, the structure, the way this is going to go, we have top 10. We'll kind of rip through 10 through six.
But feel free to expand on them. I'm going to kind of give you hints on what it was and see if you guys can guess it. I love this, but I hate it. I love it, but I hate it because I don't want to get it wrong because I know the answer. All right. Well, fuck. I hate school. Should we get underway? I hate school. Should we get underway? Sure. Number 10 as voted on by the Chuckers, 2,600 responses. It's unbelievable. Yeah, it's pretty great.
Imagine this. We're in Paris. It's the early 90s. A teenage phenom is up against the queen. The grunting? Loud enough, they talked about banning it. The rallies? Full grind. Sell a scrap. God, we didn't even get to the end. It would have been 19. The first year Celis won, I think it was 1990. It was Celis Graf, French Open final in 1992. Celis was 18, Graf was 22. Still one of the greatest matches, women's matches ever played. Yeah, Celis.
She doesn't get talked about enough, by the way, winning nine majors, obviously before the tragedy happens while she was still in her teens. It's nuts. Look at her record at that age. You know, here we say, oh, she won a major before she was 20. Look how many majors Monica Seles had before the incident in 1993. And also... or head-to-head against the rival Steffi Graf is quite formidable. This is one of the...
great what-ifs. I would submit not just in tennis, but in sports, and Andy will back me on this, that Monica Sellis is an absolute saint of a human being, I mean, you will not find another person, um, only sort of adds an element of complexity and tragedy. But, uh, that's, that's an interest. That was number 10. It was number 10. I'll tell you, I'll tell you, I, cause.
Like Monica is one of the nicest people ever. I haven't crossed paths with her. We were never on tour at the same time. It's not like she does commentary at places. So she's around. Uh, everyone, we have mutual friends and you get like the, you, you get the temperature of the room. Everyone loves Monaco.
I did a corporate event and they're like, oh, you're going to be on a panel with Monica Sellis. I didn't expect this because I don't often feel this way in tennis ever anymore. I think I left this in my teenage years. Not respect, but like... I could hardly speak. When, when like I was actually like, no one was around and you kind of have to make conversation.
I don't think I like blew it. I don't think she knew, but the two people that I have a really hard time conversing with because I'm so star structured, Monica Sellis and Steffi Graf still. And I'm friends, like I'm, I'm friends, friends with Andre and I'm around Steffi like a lot. And nope, she doesn't know it until now. But I can't like I'm so starstruck by the two of them.
Great choice. That's awesome. You want a quick Monica story? I had to do a corporate thing with her too. She's great in front of an audience. There's a mystique that comes with her, but she's very sort of... social and genial. She really is great with credit. But I said, at one point, you were known as this ferocious competitor. And now that you don't play tennis anymore,
where do you find your competitive Jones? Where do you channel that sort of sense of competition? She said, oh my God, I hated that. And I don't have it at all. And it's great. There's so many athletes that get done competing and whether they turn into poker stars or, you know, you and I see them sometimes that they get very competitive in the green room. I mean, they're also it's very hard to sort of turn off that.
spigot of competitiveness and that she won as much as she did and as dominating as she was when she did not have that competitive Jones and loves the fact that it's not a part of her life now, I think is just fascinating.
Great player, great person. We're going to spend too much time on if this was what it takes to get through one match. Yeah, yeah, let's go. This was good. This was good to talk about her. I do have a point that needs to be... Sorry, I can't just move on. This is the problem with these types of shows is because I have so many thoughts.
I do think like that one, she gets left out of like the all time best competitors lists all the time. She doesn't get mentioned because she's so nice away from it. And also just something to think about. There's no answer. There's no correct answer. I don't actually have an opinion, but. As you get older, like you see these phenoms when they're teenagers, is perspective on life.
Does it actually swim against the grain of like this, I'm going to kill you, take your heart? When you're 26 and you realize that there's other things in life, is it actually, does it work against? like these uber teen phenoms once they get like perspective as an adult. Anyways, go ahead. Yeah, that's actually interesting. We could talk about that a lot more. Number nine. But we won't. We won't. Yeah. We'll put a pin in that one. Number nine. Two lefties, five hours.
Bombs from both wings. One guy looked like he was playing with a baseball bat and the other had Federer waiting in the final. Oh, this is Rafa Rafa Verdesky. Yeah, that's it. In the semis of in 2009 in Australia. Yes. Nadal cried after the match and it was the longest in Australian Open history at that point. Yeah. Very good. You want a quick factoid? Yeah. Nadal recovered.
beats Roger. And remember, that's the match where, wait, I hope I got this right. We're not preparing. We're not Googling. We've got no AI here. Isn't that the match where Roger cried on the trophy stand and Rafa comforted? Yes. Roger comforted, Rafa comforted Roger. Yeah. You beat your countrymen in five sets, lefty versus lefty, and then you come in your very next match, you beat Roger Federer to win Australia, and then you have the presence to...
spontaneously comfort him when he cries. Yeah, whatever. I lost a five-set Grand Slam final that year, and I didn't fucking cry. No. until I got to the shower and then I fucking weeped for six hours. Oh, man. I'm sorry. I don't know why I'm laughing at that. It's sad. It's sad. It's so sad. God, it's so funny. Maybe we'll get to that. Please, yes, let's. Number eight. I sweat. The crowds behind the Swiss.
He's got two match points on his own serve. Oh, this is the whatever it was. This is Novak-Roger final. Like, was it 19 or something like that? Yep. That was number eight. It's number eight. Longest Wimbledon final ever for at that point. So what was crazy about those matches was we were in heavy goat mode, right? In every match... among Rafa, Roger, Novak was this two match, you know, two sort of two majors were in the balance, right? You take one and you take one from the other.
Roger has points on his serve to win that tournament. That's a lot of history and a couple of inches on the net, isn't it? You ready for a little nug about that one? Again, we don't know the matches that producer Mike is telling us. We are flying completely blind. But this is correct. How's this, JW?
If you look up career, you know, stats, people, points, one on first serve, Roger, I bet my pinky that he's top five all time, right? Just because you have to deal with his serve and then you have to deal with, you know, what comes afterwards. Both of those points on his serve, he made his first serve. What would the chances be of someone telling you two points on his own serve makes both first serves?
Fuck you, Magoo. Your real pinky or your severed pinky, if we're betting, though? Oh, the one that I lost right before the show. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. For sure. Yeah. Okay. You ready for the next? We're at number seven. Okay. One legend coming off an injury, the other battling back to form. It's a rivalry, you know, with new weapons. especially on the backhand win. 2017, Roger Rafa, Australian Open final.
Bing, bing, bing. There you go. That was a good one. Roger down a break in the fifth, I think, was how that went. Yeah, Federer's first slam win in five years. tough life. His first over Rafa in a major final in a decade. Yeah. And he also, I want to say he was seated, you know, something. low or not. 13 or something. I think he beat like, I think he beat four top 10 players in that on his way to the, to, to win that. Yeah. But that was, that was insane.
The regular season is in the rear view, and now it's time for the games that matter the most. This is Kenny Beecham, and playoff basketball is finally here. On Small Ball, we're diving deep into every series, every crunch time finish. Every coaching adjustment that can make or break a championship run. Who's building for a 16-win marathon? Which superstar was... Which role player is about to become a household name? With so many fascinating first round matchups, will the West be the bloodbath?
East be as predictable as we think, can the Celtics defend their title? Can Steph Curry, LeBron James, Kawhi Leonard push the young teams at the top? I'll be bringing the expertise to pass in the genuine opinion you need for the most exciting time of the NBA calendar. Small ball is your essential companion for the NBA postseason. Join me, Kenny Beecham, for new episodes of small ball throughout the playoffs. dropping through the playoffs available on YouTube and wherever you get your podcast.
This week on Prof G Markets, we speak with Ryan Peterson, founder and CEO of Flexport, a leader in global supply chain management. We discuss how tariffs are actually impacting businesses, And we get Ryan's take on the likely outcomes of this ongoing trade war. If they don't change anything and this 145% duty sticks on China, it'll take out like mass bankruptcies. We're talking like 80% of...
small business that buys from China will just die. And millions of employees will go, you know, we'll be unemployed. I mean, it's sort of why I'm like, they obviously have to back off the trade. Like that can't be that they just do that. I don't believe that they're that crazy. You can find that conversation exclusively on the Prof G Markets podcast. Number six, imagine yourself. It's Dallas, 1972.
I'm not going to get this one. Oh my gosh. Before the 18 feet was a thing. Before tie breaks were standard. The rocket versus the muscles. I was a labor Rosewall, WTC funnels or something like that. You remember that one? I'm not going to get this, uh, three words in. And I was born 10 years later. Um, yeah, I was going to say, I had, uh,
I had Rosewall on DraftKings. That made the list? Really? Number six. Number 21 million Americans watched this match on CBS. It made tennis mainstream in the U.S. Man, I'll tell you, like, there's nothing better. than having had the opportunity to hang out with that old Australian generation. Oh my goodness.
Like, you want to hang out with them, the kindest people ever, but also you feel like they were just ripping beers at night, like, you know, sharing rooms while traveling. Like, it was just a different sort of thing. And I remember... I remember Ken Rosewall, we played a, fuck, this was probably like 1998. We played an XO before they played something and we were at Ocean Reef.
in the Keys in Florida. And I remember him sitting with us. It was like four knuckleheads in high school. Chris Martin was one. I want to say Marty was there. And he just sat with us for like 30 minutes and was just telling us like old stories. That's awesome. And then I was like, he's like, what's going on with you? And he was like, oh, my back's kind of hurting and you know, whatever. And he goes, what did he say? He said, you've got to wear more worn-in shoes. Helps your back.
I don't know if that's true, but it was like an Uber, like old school tale. And then the year that I got into the Hall of Fame in 2017, I hadn't spent hardly any time with Mr. Labor. And at three or four events, he was showing up at Hall of Fame events. Oh my God. Like I just, that man is the most, maybe the most humble champion that's ever lived.
Like unbelievable. They need to name every stadium after him, not just the one in Australia. When you're with somebody like that, right, that comes from a different technological generation of the sport. And you know, and you're, you are, you know, you're dropping these bomb serves and everything. What are, what is like the strategic conversation about tennis? Like, it's just different. So like.
The, the skills, like I, I, I have this thing. I, the most, I, the, the biggest example I is like, oh, well, could so-and-so play, you know, now, are they better with Woodrat? Yeah, yeah, sure. Some people would be better. Some people would be worse, but also the greats would figure it out. Like Andre came in and he was using ProBlend, which if you don't know what ProBlend is, one, congratulations.
Two, because Mike has no idea what ProBlend is. Is it a string? No, it's this. What does Andre call it? A cheat string. It's literally the worst string that's ever been made. And the point was, so like when we're training and string costs money, but you're breaking strings every day, that's like, you know, 20 bucks a pop, 25 bucks a pop. You add in stringing costs on top of that. It's like... You're 14, 15, 16. Like that's a lot of money as it, as you know, as pro blend was literally.
Like cat wire. Like there was metal fucking wire in the middle of this like Kevlar blend. And then because you normally break the main strings and not the cross string. right? So you would put it in the mains and put something that wasn't the worst ever in the cross, but it killed your arm. So point being, the only reason I give context for ProBlend was Andre got to three in the world in 1988.
And then you fast forward to 2005 when he was the last time he was, no, 2003, he was number one in the world and he had switched to Luxalon and was like using the new tool and still, you know, we're talking about a generation difference, you know. metal rackets you're in the first you know 15 years of them or 10 years of them and then you know the greats would figure it out the only thing that would be
That shouldn't be the focus of the conversation, whether Rafa could play with a wood racket. He would have figured it out. He can just figure it out. Have you seen his golf swing? Not the best looking golf swing I've ever seen, and he's like a plus two, right? He would absolutely just figure it out. The only thing that is the ignored conversation is can someone who's... 5'8 or 5'9 be an all-time great from this moment forward?
Interesting. I think that's the point where you get left behind. We were talking about Laver, right? Which Laver was. And Rosewall. Yeah, Rosewall too. This is before people like Stan Smith even came in. you know, was six foot four and, you know, whatever else, but like, that's the conversation, right? Do you have to be six foot two, six foot three, or do you have to have a body like Carlos Alcaraz, who's the fastest man alive?
And that's the offset. I don't think it's the equipment as much as it is just the physicality. Before we move on to the next one, you brought up Rafa's golf swing. There's something circling on the internet about. a big four showdown in golf that Rafa was teeing up. Who do you think wins out of that? Rafa wins. Rafa wins. Yeah. I'll nose. I'll get, I'll have a better scouting report on fed soon, but, um,
Rafa wins that he's, he's the, but I, but I do hear that Murray's gone from like a 12 to like a two and like 10, 12 seconds. And I hear, I hear Rogers playing all the time. Like, and he's quickly, he's quickly coming down. He's a single now and I think he's, he's plummeting. So we'll, we'll know more. As long as we're digressing here. I feel like we got, Marty got a little bit of short shrift there. I mean.
of non-pro golfers. I've had multiple people say Marty could play on the PGA Tour. Marty has won that event. In Tahoe that Steph Curry's won, I feel like we didn't quite give of all the former players. And, you know, didn't Scott Draper like played on a pro circuit in Australia? And Henman's pretty good. Marty's just next level as not just former tennis players, but as athletes playing golf.
Marty's like apparently a stroke or two away from getting a senior PGA Tour card. Marty hits it high. He can draw. He can cut. It's the most repeatable swing of all time. This isn't our opinion. Jack Nicklaus said he's the best non-pro golfer he's ever played with. Now, that probably doesn't mean as far as scoring. It just means the ability, the shots he can hit. Um, he plays that he wins that Tahoe event and like he's lost a couple of times, but.
The thing that people don't talk about with that Tahoe event is it's played at like 6,500 yards and there's like some altitude. You stretch that back to 7,500 yards, he doesn't lose to anyone. He's not losing. No. No, you shorten the course. It's like it turns it into a pitch and putt and someone can get hot and, you know, make an eagle or whatever. But you take that back. Marty's a phenom on golf. What is it about the mechanics of tennis and golf that literally.
I mean, it's like, I've seen, I've seen football players and basketball players that can't swing shit. Like, what is it? Like, it's like instant. yeah every every tennis player or i shouldn't say every but most are like couriers he's been a one or he's been to scratch he's Great golfer Pete's scratch. I don't know. I think having to do with your hands, manipulating your hands all the time with...
you know, with certain shots. It's not like a golfer could go pick up Tennessee. Well, it's the two types of athleticism that we talk about. Like a decathlete, you know, might not be able to catch. You know, I would say it's like the guys who play darts and the guys who can like run fast. I think tennis. tennis, you kind of have to be the guy that can play darts and run fast.
The hand, the hand. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, you talked to Steph Curry talks about this and he said, it's, it's not about hitting a big ball. It's all. touch and feel and hand, eye and instinct.
Yeah. Steph Curry. He's a good golfer too. He's a plus. Yeah, good golfer as well. I wonder if any women tennis players play golf. Oh, Ash Barty's apparently is like sick. Ash Barty, yeah, Ash Barty. Ash Barty's insane apparently. Kim says she plays too. Pam's apparently pretty good. Pam Shriver. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just a matter of time spent. But like, yeah, every tennis player, you know, is a low single handicap. This was a good break before we get into the top five.
What should I forget? What should we do? Doing top 10 greatest matches. And we'll get back to the top five after this break. Great segue, Mike. And welcome back to the best 10 matches ever as decided by the Chuckers. Producer Mike. All right, guys. In the top five, just some precursor, right? So we've done 10 through six. We had some good ones. We've heard some fan favorite names. We've had some discussion. This one, this one's pretty great. It ranges from like
80s all the way up through kind of now. So it's a good mixture of names and big talent. Pretty proud of our truckers for what they voted on for this. So number five. This one might give it away right away. Longest Grand Slam final ever. Five hours and 53 minutes. Novak Rafa 2012 Aussie Open final. Is that right? Correct. They both needed chairs for the post-match speeches.
Which is crazy to think about. I'm trying to think of a good factoid from that. I mean, again, keep in mind, this is a two-match swing in this GOAT contest. Do you remember the guy from Kia who was the corporate sponsor? Go Google Kia Man if you're bored. I just remember they played this match. It's five hours plus. Neither of these guys stand. And this is the longest.
tournament trophy presentation of all time. And this guy is telling you about the virtues of Kia and these poor guys who have been playing tennis for... 72 straight days and can barely stand up. What happened in the last event? They had like a full song. They had a full concert before the trophy, Sarah. That was like, did you see this, Andy? In Barcelona, they had the lounge singer singing like Randy Newman's Cars theme. Carlos Alcaraz is like...
injured, disappointed to have lost in his home country. And you've got the bar mitzvah band playing like, don't go breaking my heart. And, you know, Gloria Gaynor. I think I would have lost. And then Holger Ruda jumps in a pool. That is a trophy presentation ceremony. God damn it. How do we feel? How do we feel? And also, Novak won a five-setter before that final as well.
like think about that um and then add layer that one on top like in the in the semis oh my god yeah yeah that's right um it's absurd it's it for someone and i know the narrative now around novak is Iron Man can play forever.
from 08 to a certain probably like a let that wasn't that wasn't the reputation it was like you wanted the long matches you wanted the heat you wanted all the you know all of those elements and to his credit I don't know that I've ever seen someone take... as significant a weakness and turn it into as significant a strength in the course of a career as Novak has done with his fitness and being able to put people in like a pain chamber.
I think he used to want to avoid it, and now he fully just jumps in, like Holger Runa jumping into a pool in Barcelona.
Wouldn't you say Andre might be a close second there? Remember the knock on him and he was sort of Andre and his Taco Bells and then he finds Gil Reyes and then no one's outworking him. Yeah, I do think there's a difference between work like I don't know that Novak ever had you know the like Andre early on you know you mentioned Taco Bell and it was he would kind of skip events and play two majors a year and it was more just like is he fully in it
I don't think that was the book on Novak. I think it was an actual physical fitness thing where he had to pull different levers and have diets a certain way and became obsessed with recovery and all of this other stuff. I think Andre took something that was a question mark and turned it into a strength. But I think what he did, I think the actual switch.
was from being undisciplined to being incredibly disciplined. Whereas Novak's I think was actually, you know, like additive, like learning and applying, which I see a difference there. Maybe some of you won't. No, that's good. Good, good. All right, moving on to number four, Paris, 1985.
One of the most one-sided rivalries flip in a single match. One player had lost 13 straight, but on this day, she flipped the script. Oh, I know that. Who ended the streak and took slam? Is that Chrissy beating Martina? That is correct. Yeah. French Open final 1985. Unbelievable. Sealed her sixth Roland Garris title. Chrissy's Chrissy's stats and I wish like this is the first moment in the show where I wish I would like have actually had time to prep if you read back her stats
on clay for a moment in time, they need to be discussed. And I'm not saying they're the same as Rafa's because they're not, but they need to be mentioned whenever anyone is talking about Rafa's clay dominance. And Chrissy, I think we all give Chrissy... all the flowers that she deserves, but in the context of the conversation around dominance on one surface.
That she needs to be, you know, right there in the first three names every single time. I literally just Googled stats on clay and it's 70 clay court titles. Yeah. Once won 125 straight matches on the surface. Ding, ding. 382 and 22 record with a 94.55 winning percentage. Yeah. Wow. It's absurd. Look at her, uh, look at, look at her Roland Garros run too. Yeah. I mean, it's like 125 straight matches. on a surface. So that's over years, right? Because you don't get the, you know, it's, it's
It's absurd. It needs to be right up there. I'm glad this match came up only for the fact that like as dominant as... Pete was on grass. Like Chrissy was more dominant on clay. Right. Keep in mind, that was Pete Martina too. Beating Martina in that final, too. I think it was a three-set final. Unbelievable. You know what's funny about that? I don't have it in front of me. It's like 37-34. Their head-to-head is really close, as most rivals are.
They both ended up with 18 majors, one of the great rivalries. They remain great friends, but it was not like... You know, it wasn't heads, tails, heads, tails. I mean, there were some real runs for both players. And Chrissy's, you know, I think she was in her 30s at this point, and she's Martinez. a bit younger and so physically fit and martina had that 1984 that was just a joke i mean that that's a big big win for chris on clay i think that was the last french open she won and uh that's
That's a real, I'm glad that got brought up. That match gets sort of lost in the fold sometimes. That's whoever – the voters that voted on that one, good idea. Really smart. Solidly in the top five. And there's always – like with the all-time greats, there's always – it always seems like they're able to kind of like – have this this last motor and and chrissy played she didn't retire till 1989 at the u.s open i remember because my mom was crying um when she retired but
There's that last thing. It's like Nicholas at the masters in 85, you know, tiger at 2019 at the masters. Like there's always, it's in there and it's, it's not there 50 weeks a year. But it's like this living, breathing thing that is fucking inside of the greats. Like it's in that, that, that was probably hers. Number three, it's 1980.
I just, all I said was, it was 1980. And it was Borg Mac. And it's Borg Mac. Tell me I'm wrong. I mean, do you want me to say the rest of it? Ice versus fire, blonde hair versus headband. Yeah. Who brought center court to a standstill? Yeah. Borg versus McEnroe. Wimbledon final in 1980. That has to, I mean. Borg didn't celebrate. He just collapsed. It was his fifth straight Wimbledon title. He's such a guy.
One of the all-time great matches, but also one of the all-time great celebrations. Not like the knees, the taking both knees at the same time. That's sort of, I mean, you weren't even born yet. That sort of predates my interest in tennis. But yeah, I mean, McEnroe-Borg, for as relatively few times as they played, I mean, they played like... a third the number of times Roger Raffa did. I mean, this was not a great rivalry in terms of quantity, but boy.
quality and contrast and five centers at center court. That's, that's a good one too. And also like no one, the thing that was kind of, no one ever really mentioned. JW, who was the other player years later who, when they would win their first majors, it was the exact same move that Borg did to the knees? The exact same move. Rapha? Who? No. Who? Roger.
With both knees? Oh, yeah, both splayed knees. Yeah, that's good. I saw that. I was 20 feet away. Yeah, like he did it. Yes, he and no one ever like made that connection, which was always weird to me because. It's like the headband and the hair and like the the you win something and you kind of don't freak out. You just fall. And he changed it later. Like he had some things where he was different. But like the first.
I don't know, like three, four, five. It was like a little, little soft coordinated, like, like, and it's also kind of passive aggressive because like my knees are this bendy. I can just do this coordinated, right? Don't you think, um, we were talking about this with Rory last week. Let's do a 30-second detour. Don't you think at some level...
celebrations like that have to do with the cadence of the match. I remember Andre won Australia once and he beat like Arnaud Clement like three, three and three. And he's like, I'm not going to do. It's just, it's not what you're feeling emotionally. It's not that cool. I'm not going to do backflips when it's a straight set match. When it's John McEnroe on the other side of the net and deep in the fifth set, that's when you get the double knees. Don't you think...
It's not something you plan out in advance and you celebrate differently with a clean match than not. Well, there's a difference between. I'm up two sets and two breaks and I'm just trying to steer this ship home. And then when it happens, you're like, I did it. Versus like. I'm about to play a point. If this point goes my way. But it's not as if, like, you build two sets and breaks and, like, you talk about that Clement match. Like, he knew for...
45 minutes that he was most likely going to win that match. So yeah, absolutely. Emotion set is completely different. I fully agree with you. number two number two one guy is locked in like never before The other guy is trying to tie Sampras. I'm really sorry. This is like I said, these were written in, these were written in, and then we even put it in a secondary poll.
And people then voted on it again and had great commentary. These are obviously our show listeners, but go ahead. Yeah. Yes. Yes. I'll beat you to the, I'll beat you to, I'll beat you to the ending too. So that was 09 Wimbledon final and number one's 08 Wimbledon final. I'm not going to confirm or deny number one, but yes, it is Federer versus our friend here, Mr. Andy Roddick, Wimbledon final 2009. Obviously, Roger didn't break you until the final game. Until he did. Of the match. Until he did.
Yeah. So you want a fun little factoid? Yeah, please. So for my entire career, I would like... The only thing I really did better, I was like, I probably run out the ace counter serve and he had a sneaky ace serve. He had like 50 aces that match and I had 27 and didn't get broken, which means.
I was actually playing well and doing okay in the neutral ball rallies for the first time like in our entire lives. He had 50 aces and I think I had 27. How often did you get like out aced like that? Never. I mean, I don't know. It just, it just depends. Like, you know, but also like for him, like I knew. and this probably gets in the weeds but against roger i kind of had to almost sell out a little bit because
against someone who's so good at that middle ball that's a little short, where he can take that four in either side, you're playing against your movement. I couldn't fall behind there. So I had to cheat and look for a pit. because I had to firm up that return. If I make a return, but it's floating and it's in the middle, I might as well have not made the return, right? So he served great. And also I had to make decisions. to kind of sell out looking for a certain pitch.
or looking for a certain serve because I knew I had to firm it up. Andre made you do the same thing, right? But he didn't have the variety on serve that Roger did, even though the way he pitched a ball game is probably the best ever. But yeah, he had like 50 aces and I think I had 20 something. Is he like the Greg Maddox of serving? Roger? Yeah. Him and Andre. Andre doesn't get enough credit for it. But yeah, I think that's a fair comparison. He can throw... Every serve in any count.
break point over the course of a decade, there were like no obvious tendencies. Like, you know, his serve T is a little more accurate than the serve wide. That doesn't mean he's not going to serve wide on a big point. He can throw a little bunny kick at 85 or he can hit it 122 wide. second serves. He can like, think about this. So you're standing to return a second serve and you split step. So not only can he hit it a kick and into your body.
he can hit it into your body starting on each direction. So he can start it on your backhand side and run it into your body on a second serve, or he can hit a little kick that starts middle and then kicks in on your forehand side. So it's not even just I'm looking back in, I'm looking for him, I'm looking body. different directions into your body. So he's either you know, T-Rexing you where you got little short arms on the forehand side.
or it's starting and kind of running it on the backhand side to where you're trying to pull it. And then as soon as he sees you pull it, if you don't hit it well enough, he's straight back to your backhand against your movement, like on the next ball. So anyone who's like, you just got to make that second server. Shut up. Shut up. Can I ask you? No. Let me ask you one question about that. Yeah.
You alluded to sort of you saved your tears for the shower. Yeah. I mean, obviously. Which I had a drug tester watching me. Yeah, exactly. We'll talk about that next time as well. Did you source the disappointment to one thing in particular? I mean, whether this was a...
lifetime goal or whether this was your grasp of history that you were very close to or whether it was Wimbledon or Roger. Is there one thing in particular that you would have sourced that disappointment to? Yeah, it was mostly Wimbledon. I would do anything and not because I need my life probably today beyond the way people view a career would be, wouldn't be different. Right. So it, I don't think.
It changes much. I'm not, I, you know, I'm not, I was, you know, approaching any records or, you know, anything like that. So it really didn't have. a massive significance now that Novak has kind of, you know, run away from the field as far as total majors. Maybe that wouldn't have mattered either, where at the time it definitely mattered. It was just a dream. I'm so in love. that it would have filled my heart to walk in there being one of them, meaning one of the champions. Like I would have...
been endlessly humbled by that. So it was probably that. And then coupled with, I don't know if I'll be here again, where if I lose, when I lost in 04 and 05 in the final. I was pretty sure that I would have another crack at it. And there's the Roger of things where it's like overcoming this thing that has just, it's like outrunning a rainstorm that you know is coming, right? And just not quite being fast enough.
Anyways. Roger wasn't the defending champion that year, though. You know why? Because number one happened. 2008. Number one on your list is the reason why Roger wasn't the defending champion. I'm not going to confirm it until I give you these options. Go ahead. Waste everyone's time. Go for it. I will say this.
So this this was the this got 50 percent of the votes is is the one we had it on a list where people could just click on it. And then the next time we put the poll out, we didn't put it on the list because it got so many votes and everyone wrote it in. Yeah, that's no brainer. Rain delays, twilight finish, end of a five-year rain on grass. It didn't just live up to the hype. It became the standard.
Nadal-Federer, Wimbledon final, 2008. Nadal beats Federer 9-7 in the fifth, finishing in near darkness after nearly five hours on court. Yeah, it was, I think it was significant for so many reasons. I think. One, I think we were pre-programmed in what a rivalry should look like. Like a lot of the matches that we've talked about, Borg, Chrissy, Martina. There's a Rafa Novak. Like, what are the similarities? It's like the personality is.
You know, they're very different. The lefty righty thing in the history of tennis has been a big deal. And so I think we're falling into that. The other thing that it did, and I think why it was so significant, is at that point, we knew that Rafa was going to win 10-plus majors because of the French Open. Right. But to beat Roger in that venue, in his prime, on his surface. I think from the locker room automatically catapulted him into one of the greats of all time.
uh i watched yeah i watched the end i made a habit of not planning my day around tournaments that i wasn't no longer that i was no longer in i was more bored by it than tennis fandom at that time i've watched i've since watched it fully and it's like It's insane. It's just, you know, that match helped pay my, you know, I wrote a book about this. We did a documentary. I'm completely, I have no objectivity here, but A.
Rafa had lost to Roger the previous two years in the Wimbledon final. He'd gotten closer. He's up two sets to love. And then Roger storms back. The crowd comes to life. I mean, imagine what it would have done to Nadal, who also tuned Roger at the Roland Garros final four weeks earlier. 3-0. So you beat the guy, the previous major. 3-0 and 1.
Yeah, I mean, it was barely a match. And it was on clay, and then you go to grass, and Rafa wins the first two sets, and it's, oh, we've got a new king. And then Roger storms back. Imagine what would have happened if... Rafa had not won that match and let it slip through his fingers. B, this was the, I think this was the very last match at Wimbledon before the lights and the roof. So if this had a slightest more rain delay, or if we hadn't had that...
that late break, everybody would have had to come back on Monday. I mean, this was the last game they possibly could. You see there, and people are, this was back when phone flashlights were not obnoxious. I mean, this was a source of light. And if this had gone one more game.
They would have had to call it, and it would have been such a bummer. Everyone would have had to come back the next day. And then I also, one thing I love about this match is they've had this absolute battle, classic match. They both recognize it. Rafa drops, you know, falls flat on his back. They shake hands at the net. And when Rafa eventually makes his way... to his team, one of the first people that touches him, congratulates him, lifts him up is Roger's dad.
And I always say like when my kids played Little League, like the Sharks and the Blue Jays would never be on the same side of the backstop. The parents wouldn't even talk to each other. This was a Wimbledon final and one of the very first people you have contact with. is the father of the guy you've just beaten in this, in this seminal match. Just a great, great, great sporting event. And I think the other thing, I mean,
I don't want to dwell on 2009, but I think it's also – Roger won the U.S. Open after that. So it was – this incredible, extraordinary match, but it also wasn't this fatal blow that Roger won the very next major. So the fact that both of them continued on. I think in a way sort of added this because it wasn't, I mean, at the time people were like, oh, Roger's done. Rafa's got his number. He's never going to recover from this. And then Roger goes and wins the very next.
wins the very next major. So, um, I heartily agree with that choice. Yeah. It's, it's, it was, it was strange too. Cause Roger had to wait year to win again. Poor guy. Poor guy. I will tell you, when I hear you say he went and won the U.S. Open after that match, I'll tell you one of the fucking, one of the, like where I'm yelling at the TV, like probably the only time I've ever actually been angry at Roger and it was completely irrational. was the 09 U.S. Open final.
When they're in the fifth set and all of a sudden he throws in back-to-back doubles for Del Potro to break, I wanted to fucking crawl through the TV and strangle him in the post-mortem of that Wimbledon match where... None of that was happening. Why not me? I had a... I had a moment of fleeting petulance where I was actually real. I was real mad, very upset. And I threw something at the TV and I broke, I broke the TV. It was a flip-flop.
to wrap out our list none of the matches obviously were post 2019 yeah and obviously this you guys have not prepared for this so this is an asshole question on my part anything since 20 Algaraz Djokovic the first Wimbledon final That should be up there, you think? I think so. I think also the matches that I think, as far as drama, Maddie's run, where it was like a tightrope walk for the last...
Those were high drama. And maybe I'm attached to it just because I like Maddie so much. But those are the first two that kind of popped into my head. I'm sure there are others. And anyone who's mad that we didn't choose this match, we didn't choose anything, by the way. It was all just written into us. So just save it. We're just riffing. Yeah.
Two quick points. Can you have a greatest ever match if it's not a major? Discuss. I mean, I would put Novak and Alcaraz in Cincinnati. Yeah, but you also, I also, you know, you notice that most of these were men's matches. I don't want to get into a best of three, best of five, women, men, blah, blah, blah. One thing I will say, I do think it hurts the women that when we think about these absolutely indelible matches.
If it's not five sets, I think that probably cuts against you. But overall, I think it's an awfully good list. It was fun. It was good. I got one for you, JW. I got a bonus question for you. match of all time that wasn't a five-setter on the men's side. Maybe an Andre Pete at the open. Correct. There was only one answer. Remember that night match? Yeah. 2001. 2001 quarterfinal. Four tiebreakers. Six, seven, six, six, and six.
Jeez. Yeah. And that was, that was, that was, that was the one. And that was like a weird one for me because I was still in a tournament and had to play my quarterfinal the next. So it was like this weird thing where I watched them play for so many times, so many years. But it was weird. I was watching that and I was the eight-year-old version of myself. And then I had to go out and I ended up losing to Hewitt in five sets the next night.
But it was like, it was this weird thing where I'm walking around the next day trying to connect the dots between what I just watched and the fact that I'm actually still in this tournament. Crazy. Yeah, but that was the correct answer, JW. Congratulations. It was fun. You know, I do think we ought to pause for 10 seconds and note that one reason we are doing this is because...
These 12-day masters are really inconvenient for weekly shows. There would not have been much to wrap up on next Tuesday. This Madrid event that Ari Emanuel is allegedly buying that we can dive into. Maybe as part of his purchase, he would like to revert to the one-week format because... It's a little rough to schedule around a 12-day non-major. What was the dad joke you made, Andy? Which one? Madrid. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Bear Midrid. This is the Midrid episode. Midrid.
Yeah. But for next week's show, I have a proposal for you guys. You ready? Let's not talk about like lawsuits that will change the landscape of tennis. Let's not talk about who's buying what tournaments that might change the landscape of tennis.
Let's not talk about like mental health, how it's applied. Is it being serviced? What about like, do you guys have like big opinions on different wristband lengths or something like that? Like short socks versus long socks or like anything like that? I mean... I'm a long sock guy, you know, especially on clay. You know, one thing I'm, one thing I'm certain about. is that JW's prize. for naming the best four-set match of all time.
is a dr goodwin olipop this will be we're going to send it in the mail or maybe they have it in switzerland i don't know but i'll toast i was gonna say i'll toast you with uh swiss lake water but uh you know my address I mean, one thing about next week's show, we'll do our Madrid recap. It won't be Madrid anymore. No, it'll be post-Madrid. Yeah. We'll do the Rome preview, but one...
Yannick Sinner. Sinner, Sinner, chicken dinner. Anyone going to talk about him in the next two weeks? Off the bench. Back in the game, coach. Practicing at the Monte Carlo Country Club as we speak. And hopefully we'll have some more information about Mr. Alcaraz. Hopefully he'll be back in. Yeah, gosh. But also we forget that he barely played any clay court tennis last year because his arm was hurt.
Also, and that was like a point of concern. We're like, I don't know if he could play well at Roland Garros. He hasn't played many matches. Okay. We do need to get a review from Social Sophie on the doc. She's been blowing up my text messages about how much. Yeah, she's just binged it and she's obsessed. Oh, good. The Alka doc. Yeah, Alka doc. The Alka doc that was put out in Madrid. All right.
All right. I don't know whether to say join us next week or apologize and tell you it was a hell of a run. I don't know. But thanks for all your help on socials, guys. Hit us up. Give us follows. Give us give us likes. Give us comments. We read all of them. We take donations for profit. And we are still trying to figure out what to do with these shoes.
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