Previously on Serial Why would you admit to doing something that drastic if you hadn't done it? The mechanics, the documentation, the steps that they took, they look good. Why would you not get up there and defend yourself? You know, it's your face to face. He's right there. He's a person. And so, you know, it sounds believable. From this American life in W.B.E. Chicago, it's Serial. One story told week by week. I'm Sarah Canick.
Before we get to today's episode, where I'm going to let Adnan talk for a while. I want to run by you some new information I've learned in the past week. Three things I've learned. First, remember Laura, the former Laura Astradasendoval, the one who asked, well then who the fuck did it in the last episode? She was friends with Stephanie and with Jane with Adnan. I was talking to Laura on the phone the other day. And she mentioned something about Best Buy. And so, I asked her if I could start taping. Tell me, tell me again what you just told me.
There's never any phones at Best Buy. There were never any phones around the Best Buy. No pay phone, no phone booth. No. No. There's like blanks. There's no phones there. The pay phone in question is important because Jay tells the detectives that Adnan called him on January 13, 1999 until Jay he'd killed Hay.
Quote, come and get me I'm at Best Buy. When Jay gets there, he says he sees Adnan standing by the phone booth wearing red gloves. He draws a map for the cops showing the location of the phone booth. And if you're facing the front doors of the store, his drawing shows the booth on the left outside on the sidewalk. We did a lot of research on this, where it was, whether it was, and we could not account for this phone booth.
Laura said that's because it never was. She said the only conceivable place for a phone at the Best Buy would have been inside in the foyer part of the store. But there was no phone there either. Laura says she knows this because she used to go to that Best Buy a lot from the time it opened through 98 into 99 with her family and without her family.
Can I used to, you know, I don't know if he'll see these from there all the time. I was pretty aware of like what was around. You're saying you would shoplift CDs? Yeah, sorry, but is I don't have the CDs. So you're saying you would have noticed a thing like that because you were kind of.
Yeah, because you're kind of like paying attention like you go in and like you kind of are more aware of your surroundings and just barking into the store. You know, at the time, I remember looking up in the ceiling and seeing if there was any eyes in the sky, any cameras, you know, and you know, there's a whole method.
But you're very, you're very aware of like entering and who was like, who was there at the entrance and when you're leading, you know, because you're like, you're going to kill him. And man, there's no phones there. Laura and I hypothesized why if there really wasn't a phone booth, how could the cops have missed a detail like that when they have noted it? Laura thought maybe it wasn't a big deal to them. It's such a small detail.
It's not a small detail. It's not a small detail. No, it's not because they're saying that's where the 236 call comes from. Is that pay phone at Best Buy? Yeah, I don't know why they went check it, but there's no pay phone there, man. You're sure. I'm positive.
So that's thing one thing to I learned it also relates to this 236 call. I talked to a woman named summer. She went to Woodland. She's been listening to the podcast and she emailed me because when she heard this one part, she said she started shaking her head. She said if the state is saying, Hey, Lee was dead by 236. It's impossible. It's impossible. I mean, like I mean, it's just impossible. It's not. There's no way that she was at Best Buy 236.
Summer was friends with Hey, not close friends, but they had a class together and they joked around and talked. Summer had a boyfriend who did sports at Woodland and she wanted an excuse to stay after school too so she could hang around with them. Hey told her there was an opening for another manager of the boys wrestling team. Hey was already doing that. So summer joiner.
The day he disappeared, the wrestling team had a match at Randall's Town High School. Summer remembers talking to Hey after school in the gym area there. The wrestlers were milling around. Summer was preparing the equipment they had to load onto the bus.
And Hey came in to say, I'm not getting on the bus to the match, but I'll see you there. And that wasn't welcome news to summer. She needed Hey by her side at the match because Hey was more experienced at scoring, which can be tricky and wrestling if you're new at it.
You know, I was giving her hell because I'm telling her like, I don't know what I'm doing. You know, I needed her because, you know, we had to take points and things like that. And she's like, no, no, no, I just have to go and you know, pick my little cousin up.
Summer says it wasn't a quick conversation either. You know, we used to tease each other because she really was hilarious. But we would tease each other and you know, go back and forth and we were at least talking for at least 10 minutes. You're sure that this is the day because it's the day she didn't show up. I am positive. I am very positive. You know, I looked for her the whole time at the away game. You know, I was really pissed because I thought that she, you know, stood me up.
Hey told Summer she would make her own way to Randall's town high for the match. No one but me probably remembers this now. But I know as Butler Hendrix, who worked at the school, said, hey, had told her she was planning to catch the Randall's town bus. However, I know as initially told the cops the opposite. So I trust Summer's memory more and summer is clear. Hey told her she was going to drive herself there.
Summer said this conversation about, hey, not getting on the bus happened after the last bell and also after the regular school buses had cleared the loop in front of the school. She said probably at around 2 30 to 45. Summer says she has no dog in this fight. She's got no opinions on a non-skilled or innocence. She just knows what she knows.
All of the things that I'm, you know, unclear about or kind of shaky about or I am clear on that 2 36 would not have been possible for her to even have met him. Whatever because I know for fact she was probably with me during that time or at the school during that time. Summer never talked to the detectives. There's no mention of her in their notes. But she's not the only person who said they saw hey after school that day.
Becky saw her right after school. Debbie Warren said she talked to hey too. The police notes say she saw her at approximately 3 p.m. inside the school near the gym, which would match Summer's memory. So Laura says no phone booth at Best Buy. Summer says no way know how hey was at Best Buy at 236. Combine that if you want with old information from Asian McClain who says she saw a non around 2 30 to 45 at the Woodland Public Library.
Can we all agree that whatever happened to hey probably didn't involve a 2 36 p.m. call from that phone booth saying come and get me I'm at Best Buy? I don't know about you but I'm done considering that it's true this 236 thing. If you want to speculate with me here for a second. If we suspect there wasn't a phone booth at Best Buy. That means the crime maybe didn't happen there.
Jays friend Chris said he heard the crime happened in the parking lot of the Woodland Public Library. But I got to say if you think the Best Buy is too public a place to commit a murder you should see the library after school swarming with kids. And if the she's dead come and get me call wasn't at 236 maybe it's the next incoming call in the log the 3 15 call. After all no one actually testifies to the 236 timing at trial this comes from the prosecutors narrative alone.
The problem is if it is the 3 15 call that really messes with Jays testimony about where they were and what they were doing that afternoon. Now third piece of new information it's about what happened at not her real name Kathy's apartment that evening of January 13th. Kathy remembered a non getting a call and reacting in an agitated way saying things like what am I going to do what am I going to say they're going to come talk to me you know what am I supposed to say.
Kathy testified at trial about this call how a non was acting panicked. I think it's possible that call Kathy overheard was not from a mystery third man or co-conspirator but from wait for it.
Hayes good friend Aisha Pittman to review for a sec Hayes brother called the cops that afternoon officer Scott adcock arrives from the Baltimore County PD his initial report records the time as 5 12 p.m. adcock calls Aisha and a non asking if they've seen hey here's what's new I got an email recently from another friend in that woodland magnet group Christa saying she'd talk to Aisha that evening of the 13th.
Quote it was around 6 p.m. that night that I talked to Aisha and she was calling around to see if anyone had heard from her unquote her meaning hey. So I checked with Aisha and she does remember speaking to a non here's what she wrote to me quote I do remember speaking with a non that evening but I thought he called me from what I recall it was a super short conversation and he was annoyed that I told the police to check in with him.
I thought I spoke to him after the police called him unquote she said it's possible her memory of who called whom could be mistaken maybe she did call there's definitely no outgoing call to Aisha on a non sell that day and maybe it was before he'd spoken to the cops not after she can't be sure but that's what she remembers.
Again you've heard this information before but I'm going to review it now there are three calls on the call log around this time that all ping towers near Kathy's apartment 607 609 and 624. The first two calls are for a little less than a minute the third call is the longest four minutes 15 seconds that was likely officer adcock.
So maybe I should call the non at 609 says I just talked to the police and they're going to get in touch with you to I just says it non was annoyed maybe that's what Kathy interpreted as panic. I think we can all stipulate that a non was super stoned he told me he had weed in the car and was worried the cops are going to find it if they came to talk to him.
So imagine for a second that a non is talking to Aisha and says something like what am I going to do what am I going to say they're going to come talk to me you know what am I supposed to say. Obviously I can't say for sure this is what happened but if that strange call Kathy remembers was actually Aisha well then for me that rearranges all the pixels and Kathy's memory from suspicious to innocuous if it's true.
Okay now that we're caught up let's go back to our regularly scheduled program this is from a non second trial. That's a non not testifying you told me wanted to but his attorney advised against it not uncommon it's a huge risk to open your client up to cross examination and impeachment so there he was mute through two trials about five weeks total which is really hard for anyone.
It was very I mean it was man I would say probably the most stressful thing in my life you know this guy was pretty sad is going to a trial but more so sitting there for so long for so many days and weeks knowing that his jury sitting there looking at me and ultimately they're going to be the one to make the decision you know I got to sit up straight I mean it was it was like a trial within the trial in the sense you know it was really the struggle right there and there were sometimes where it was just so unbelievable what was being said I used to just look down.
I would just literally just be like scribbling on a paper like acting like I was taking notes I just I didn't know what else to do and it was going off for so long it's just so frustrating because you want to keep an eruptant and say hold on but that's not true.
That's not the reason why I got a phone I didn't make this phone call that's not you know me telling my parents I'm going to somewhere but I'm going to the club that doesn't mean that you know I it's indicative of my desire to commit murder or something but you just you never get a chance to speak you never get a chance to say it's not true. I just the most frustrating thing in the world.
I want to let a non-talk now not so much about what happened the day of the crime I feel like we've been over that already but just about what it was like to be him throughout this case what it's like now to be locked up for so long.
On the night of February 10th 1999 I use you had broken the terrible news to Christa about his body being found Christa then called a non who ran over to I use you she'll have very close to a non and then Christa joined them there Stephanie came over to they all sat there at I use you kitchen table crying.
You know the complete you just do give the complete shock there's no way to you know that I am pretty sure they didn't even imagine that you know that you know she would turn up you know dead murder in that you know our body would be found so you know I never ever consider that I'm pretty sure they didn't even think something bad happened so we just kind of thought it was some just some explanation you know he was somewhere you know with a father in California or with a new word for who knows so you know.
Lots of people told the cops and also told me that it not appeared to be in denial when they all first heard what had happened that he said things like it's not her they've got the wrong person all Asian women look alike. When a non got arrested Christa wrote down a chronology of everything she remembered from the previous six weeks here's what she wrote about that night at I use you.
We went inside and add on was sitting at the kitchen table crying after while he said that there had to be a mistake and that he was still alive because her name was written in I use you agenda book. He wanted to call the detective or she but when he called the precinct he wasn't there add on was upset so I took the phone and talk to the woman and explain that we just wanted to get some information and she said we would have to wait and call homicide in the morning.
He odd non called detective O'Shea the night that we found out that she had been murdered. That's right a non called the Baltimore County Police Department to talk to detective O'Shea to tell him they'd misidentified this girl whoever she was that tidbit is always stayed with me is that something a distraught teenager would do or is that something a killer would do.
And you know next day we went to school and it was you know definitely crying and you know it was just everyone kept coming up to me hugging me you know it was just so much so many people were like are you okay. Oh my god what happened it was just I'm not you know doubt anyone's authority you know it was just it was just too much.
So many people back then and now have talked about a non's reaction to his death that he was blank or cried in heaving waves or not at all or that he seemed normal or that he hid in the dark room in photography class or stared at a picture of him and hey in psychology class.
One teacher said he was tense and unresponsive when she gave him a hug that a tick he had became more pronounced another said he was so sad he was barely functioning the school nurse testified at a non's first trial that she thought he faked a catatonic state she wasn't allowed to testify in the second trial. He said non's friends saw anything strange in his behavior besides they said it was a strange time for everyone it was terrifying and sad they were also young how are you supposed to react.
Interestingly Jim train him the former homicide detective we hired to review the investigation immediately disregarded every single statement about a non's reaction in terms of evaluating someone's guilty said stuff like that is worthless. He advised me to do the same just toss it all out he said because it's subjective it's hindsight and also people tend to bend their memories to what they think police want to hear.
A non helped plan a memorial for hey at school they plan to treat for her it's still there in front of the school with a plaque. This time for a non is a blur he says giant events kept coming one after the other he didn't have time to wrestle them into comprehension. It was kind of a struggle to keep doing everything normally. You know the things like life couldn't stop it was just so it was just so many emotions.
Like wondering what the heck that's on like this happened to her and then he was just a few weeks and I was arrested. The cops came to a non's house to speak to him on February 26 1999 two days before they'd arrest him they hadn't interviewed Jen or Jay yet. There is a report in their files about that meeting which oddly is dated September 14 almost seven months after the fact I don't know why.
Detectives Ritz and McGill very come to a non's house and ask about hey quote when asked if Syed had a relationship with Heyman Lee Syed replied in a soft voice yes however he didn't want his father to know. They sat there you know they sat at both of them sat at the couch of a father not sat next to each other they asked me a few questions and that's actually what I was worried about was upsetting him.
That if you were to say what is the thing I was worried about the most it would be upsetting him there was no input in my mind that it was like I'm worried about you may as well say you know the leak in the living room but there's an earthquake coming in the next two minutes. I'm worried about my father being upset about all of this and my mother as opposed to I have no idea whatsoever that just you know that this murder charge is going to be coming.
Even after that conversation with your where your dad was there you didn't think like uh oh. Not at all not for I just know they were asking questions about me but not that they actually thought that I killed hey.
I never now one time thought that they actually believed that I killed hey I think any adult anyone who had like a sense of understanding could see the predicament that I was in and that now the police are going to harass you because you're the ex boyfriend like it was me talking to 17 year old is not I was a hit now your idiot you do know they're going to come after you now unless they find who did it because you're the most recent ex boyfriend.
So I can completely understand why you would ask me that but to be that person and dad absolutely no ill will towards anyone could much less the police could still have something to do with it. Very early in the morning on February 28th after they've spoken to Jay after Jay has shown them where his car was parked off Edward Road the detectives come into a non-sbedroom and wake him up.
Tell him to put some clothes on it's time to go he dresses sees his mother is watching his older brother his little brother use of his crying then they drive it none into the city to an interrogation room in homicide and handcuff him to what he describes as a little hook in the wall. The one defective uh the thing was the killer killer.
He one thing that he stated was that you know hey man you know I don't condone what you did but I have an ex wife or you know I just went through a divorce or something I can understand how you can get mad. This by the way is what Jim Trayton calls offering a theme you give the suspect an explanation one that minimizes the crime as a starting point.
But you know very it was being more so aggressive with me. We know what you did and Ritz was kind of more so like at some point I think you said man you know it would help out a lot if you just tell us what you did. You know I said well you know I would never met me. Hey what do you guys talk about and do anything to her and he did mention that but now we don't have to get your boots we're going to process your car.
At some point you did mention some red gloves you know we're going to find those red gloves or something. Annonsense the detectives left the room for a while then came back and when they came back they had the Metro crime stopper it was a picture like a reward paper.
The picture of hey at some point you said like we'll leave you alone with this you know you just look at hey you just look at this so they're looking at it you know I'm still thinking like you know this is just kind of like you know like a scare tactic.
You know scared me to see you will there's something that I know what am I going to say but still thinking that you know once this is over I'm going to leave and they both came in again and that's why they split the paper to me and it's lit on top of the Metro crime stopper bulletin and that's where it says you know they had to steal a ball of more city in a top left and corner and it said charge a document or statement of charges and it said I'm not saying.
It will fully premeditated and with Alice the fourth of or deliberately murder or kill hate mainly on such a such day and it's that punishable by you know I first remember and say to my own is punishable by the death penalty so it said definitely you know and so that's when they said you know you're being charged with a lease murder.
At this point and not asked for a lawyer he says he was thinking of Matt lock he says the detective stopped questioning him they got ready to leave the room again keep in mind and on was 17 years old.
Before they left I said well what's going to happen now you know you know and my mind I think like you know I you know my going home and I said to him I said I don't remember either I thought it or I said it then man what's in my mind is like you got to finish this I forgot to finish this report you know I have to give this report on my day. He had an annotated bibliography do in his English class he said Bill Ritz tried to make a non-situation plane to him.
The last act I remember him saying is that you're not going home and did you get it you didn't think he meant you're never going home. You know you have to I mean it's probably possible for you or anyone else who hasn't been to just understand to be a 17 year old kid in this situation no experience with the system no experience with any of this stuff. It's very difficult to believe in the early stages that this is actually what happened it must be just some huge mistake.
No it's just you know there is no way there was no way of my mind if this is going to continue. Often when a nontel stories about this time he zeroes in on some small moment when someone was kind to him. There's someone in playing clothes he stuck his head in the door and he said hey man just have faith. To me it came across as like a I don't know like an encouragement all he was saying like the taught me or anything to be a came across as being something like encouragement or some advice.
That's it that's the whole story. But he's mentioned this guy to me multiple times also the white lady who was driving the cruiser that took him downtown she was polite. There was the sheriff's deputy who looked like Judd Hirsch who slipped in a candy bar. The eighth grade teacher whose name he can't remember who wrote him that nice letter. I can imagine how you'd seize these kindnesses and that they'd nestle into your brain forever.
Now these are obviously I need to hold on to you but this is junior prom pictures. Last spring Dana and I went to Christus house. Christus was good friends with Hay and a non she was Christa Myers back then. She dug out a trove of photos and your bookstuff and letters. Christa and non wrote to each other during his first year in jail through his trial. She visited him frequently when he was in prison in Jessup Maryland much closer than where he is now in Cumberland.
Christa is clear-eyed, organized and thoughtful. Hay's death was the defining event of her youth in mess with her as did a non-s arrest and conviction. She's not in the rabia camp of 100% there's no way in the world that non did this. She's more if he did it then I don't understand human beings because the guy I knew etc. So he's a normal kind person.
I like these aren't letters from somebody that's malicious or just trying to sway you to believe him it's somebody that genuinely in my opinion cares about people trying to make the best of a bad situation. Here's the guy she knew. June 2nd 1999. Did you get that really expensive prom dress you wanted and who'd you go with if you don't mind me asking? Smileyface.
He asks how things are going with Andy they've been having problems he tells her stories about jail. June 8th quote you should send me some pictures we're allowed to get them. Man some guys in here get some really dirty pictures. I mean dirty. Let me put it to you like this I've seen more than I'd wanted to of a lot of people's wives or girlfriends to last a lifetime.
And while most guys are really protective of their pictures someone's always pulling you aside to show me their latest flick. It's really kind of disgusting. He mentions he's gotten letters from other kids from school Laura, Jawan, Justin, Asia, Aaron. That's all he says about Asia by the way. He doesn't seem to attach any importance to her letters or note that she's a potential alibi maybe because he doesn't know the state's timeline for the murder yet.
Anon was in with the juvenile population when he was first arrested in February. In May he turned 18 and then moved over to be with the adults. I'd assumed that would be awful in myriad ways but Anon writes this to Krista quote it's weird when I first came here I didn't know what the heck was going on. Let me tell you it was pretty bad but I don't mean physically like no one was trying to beat me up or anything. People didn't know what to think of me.
I mean first of all everyone in here is black and always threatening to beat the hell out of someone else. And then you have me light skinned and quiet. I didn't say much to anyone. No one said much to me. Four months later I can be anywhere in the entire jail. It's huge. And someone will call say ed.
People say what's up to me ask how things are and I don't even know them. The strange thing is so many people come to me saying if anyone bothers you let me know that there's no one left to bother me. Some of it is due to the fact that I'm a Muslim and a lot is due to my personality. You know I've been blessed in that I can make friends almost anywhere I go. Now I can really say anywhere. He tells her he's gotten elected to inmate council.
You can see how it not initially thinks this is all temporary. I'll be out by graduation maybe by summer maybe by whenever. It fades a little more the closer he gets to trial. Christo would testify for the state a trial. She's the one who talked about hearing him ask hey for a ride that afternoon which a non said he didn't do. But he doesn't hold it against her. He's so sweet to Christen these letters.
Ask about the dental work she got done. How are little sisters doing how are mothers doing whether her car got fixed. He talks about his feelings. They discuss religion and God their problems. Christ's parents were divorcing. They're intimate friends who trust each other. The most striking letters to me were the ones he wrote to her immediately before and after his sentencing. He didn't end up facing the death penalty by the way.
The first one he writes it while he's in what's called the bullpen waiting to be sentenced. It's got a cut out from a magazine stapled to it of an Asian young woman smiling. What's this Christa? That's actually not hey. It looks like her. So he found this in a magazine and said that this girl looked like he found this in a magazine and it looked so much like hey. Does it look like her to you? Yes. Yeah.
Quote, you know what's really weird? I was looking through this jet magazine in case you didn't know it features African-American issues. Smiley face. He tells Christa that he had been appearing in his dreams. The dreams like this have a certain significance in Islam. But that anyway, he's looking through this jet magazine and he does a double take because the girl looks so much like hey. Even her watch looks like hey is watch.
So take a look at it and tell me what you think. I hope I'm not going crazy. I found this perplexing. He seems relaxed in the letter. This is a kid who is about to be sentenced to life in prison. He knows that's what's about to happen. It's the mandatory sentence for his conviction.
And that conviction, of course, was for killing hey, Christa's good friend. And in this pregnant life changing moment, he's writing a letter to Christa about whether a photo he saw while flipping through a magazine looks like hey. Is it too nonchalant or something? Is it creepy? The non-explained several things about this. First, he wasn't especially nervous right then. That was about to change.
But at that point, he says he was thinking of his sentencing as a procedure he needed to get through so he could immediately start the appeals process. So in a way, it was a step toward the thing he wanted. Second, it's not like they transport you from your cell right to the courtroom door and you're just outside straightening your tie before your big moment.
It's kind of the opposite. There's an enormous quotient of utter boredom and exhaustion built in. So you do other things. Read, write letters, whatever you can. It would be hard to understand. You spend hours sitting in bullpen waiting. You know that? You know, so it's like, if you get up at 3 o'clock in the morning and you go downstairs and the basement of the jail, you just sit in a bullpen. It's basically like just a square room with a concrete bench built into the wall that goes around.
And it's probably anywhere from like 5200 people so everyone's just sitting there. And you might sit there until like that for four hours, then you go to the court. Then you sit for like another four or five hours until you go to court at like maybe 10 or 11 o'clock in the morning. So after doing this for so long, it's just like it numbs the mind. So I mean, I know people who've actually took complete deals just do not have to go to court anymore. Oh really?
You know what I mean? Like, no, I mean honestly, like not even exaggerate. The third thing is that Christa was the only person he was in regular touch with who knew he. And Christa didn't think that a non-adkilder. You know, so I can talk to her about he, it's not going to be like, you know, like, I mean, she just, she accepts me. You know, she accepted me and I could talk to her about anything or writer about anything. And so a lot of times that's what it would be.
Eight days later, post-sentencing, he writes Christa another letter. And he's so changed. By this time he'd fired Christina Gutierrez over the Asia letters. And he's being represented by a public defender he doesn't really know. And non tells the guy he wants to tell the court he did not kill Hay and that he's going to continue to fight this to the end. That's what he says in his letter to Christa. And the guy says, no, no, no, terrible idea. Don't say you're innocent. It'll anger the judge.
And non argues with him. And according to a non, the lawyer says, well, you can do it if you want, but you're just going to fuck yourself over. So now a non is worried. And then another thing he hadn't anticipated that Hay's mother was going to speak. She'd been to the trial every day, I think. Sometimes I glimster in the videos, keeping perfectly still or doubled over or holding on to someone.
There's more than one bench conference during the trial in which they talk about her mother's crying being a possible distraction to the jury. Her pain throughout must have been object. On this day, through a translator, Hay's mother speaks. She tells the court about her daughter. She tells the court about her Korean proverb that says when parents die, they're buried in the ground, but when a child dies, you bury the child in your heart.
Quote, when I die, when I die, my daughter will die with me. As long as I live, my daughter is buried in my heart. I don't know where to hear her voice. I don't know where to touch her hand. I would like to forgive a non-sayed. But as of now, I just don't know how to do that. And I just cannot do that right now.
For many, many months, we tried to contact Hay's family, to tell them we were doing this story, and in hopes they might want to talk to us about, hey, in my 20 plus years of reporting, I've never tried as hard to find anyone. Letters in English and in Korean, phone calls, social media, friends of friends of friends, two private detectives, Korean speaking researchers, people knocking on doors in three different states, calls to South Korea, we never heard back from them.
I learned a few days ago that they know what we're doing. My best guess is they want no part of it, which I respect. About, hey, I can tell you only what I've heard from non-family members. That she was cheerful and light and funny. That she loved the movie Titanic. That she sometimes put nail polish on just so she could pick it off.
She wasn't insecure, seemingly ever. Sprite was her favorite soda. The Dallas Cowboys, her favorite team, not because she cared about football, but because she liked the colors blue and silver. That she could charm you without trying. That she was a good friend to her friends. She took in their problems and their pain and tried to help them if she could.
At the sentencing, listening to Hay's mother, that was the first time a nun understood how people on Hay's side of the courtroom saw him. He'd never felt hated before. In his June 14, 2000 letter to Christa, he writes, quote, on the one hand, I feel her pain because I cared about Hay and how sad she is, but on the other I'm thinking, please believe me, I didn't kill your daughter.
She was sitting right next to me and it was really sad, but I couldn't help thinking that my mom is going through the exact same thing. She's going to lose her son forever. Afterwards, I was thinking, my God, no one believes in me. Christa, I could never explain how that felt. A nun's attorney then addresses the court. Quote your honor. I would ask that this honorable court, if it would consider this case, more a crime of passion than of intent to kill, unquote.
From a nun's letter, quote, that's all I heard him say and I turned and just stared at him wanting to hit him with a chair or something. I mean, this jerk is going to get up and give away the only thing I have, my innocence, unquote. When it's a nun's turn to speak, he suddenly realizes he has no idea what to say. He'd had his plan, but now, quote, on the other hand, I'm thinking about what the lawyer said about the judge getting upset.
On the third hand, I'm thinking, man, I should just apologize for everything, even though I didn't kill Hay. Stupid me, I end up doing a little of each, unquote. It's true. When his moment comes, he maintains his innocence. He asks for the mercy of the court and he says, quote, I'm just sorry for all the pain that this has caused everyone.
The judge, Wanda, heard, disagreed with a nun's attorney at sentencing. We know this because she said, quote, I disagree with you, counsel. This wasn't a crime of passion. She said to a nun, you planned it, quote, you used that intellect, you used that physical strength, you used that charismatic ability of yours that made you the president or the, what was it, the king or the prince of your prom, you used that to manipulate people.
And even today, I think you continue to manipulate even those that love you as you did to the victim. You manipulated her to go with you to her death. Once early on, I asked a nun, if you're saying you're innocent, why aren't you bitter and angry? Why do you sound so calm? And he said a lot of things, then and since, because there's no one answer.
Part of it, he says is that he realizes how lucky he is compared to so many other guys inside. His family visits, he calls them all the time, they send him money. He's got people like Robbie inside pulling for him. Quote, I refuse to be miserable, he said to me, being religious helps, which you hear all the time about people in prison, but I never thought about it too much before I got to know a nun.
When he ended up in prison, he says he made a choice to be a better Muslim. Now you can say that for nearly half his life, he's lived like he's supposed to. He knows it's a rationalization of a situation, but it's been the most helpful one. Finally, he says he's got a clear conscience because he didn't kill he. Though once he did say to me, I'm here because of my own stupid actions. I asked him what he meant.
Well, I mean, because at that time of the day, man, I mean, who can I, I mean, I never should have left someone home, I can never let someone home my phone. I never should have been friends with these people, you know, who, I mean, who else can I blame for myself? Well, you could blame Jay if you think he's lying. I mean, yeah, but I mean him, the police, the prosecutors, but I mean, I mean, sure what happened to me happened.
I had nothing to do with this, right? But at the end of the day, I had to take some response. But you know, I mean, you don't really know the things that my younger brother went through. You know, what my family goes through, you know, and I mean it. At the end of the day, if I had been, you know, like a, just like a good Muslim, you know what I mean? Someone who didn't do any of these things. You know what I mean? Then, uh, it's just... Yeah, so it's something that really waves everyone.
I mean, I'm not, you know, no way I had absolutely nothing to do with Hayes Margaret, but I mean, at the end of the day, you know, it's a... I can't. Yeah. A prosecutor I was talking to said, of course, a non-can't-ever admit to this crime. After all his parents have been through, the fear and the money and the anguish, how could he ever turn around and say to them, I did it. A non-took issue with that. It's your most important people in the world to be my mother and father.
And I know the thing that bothers them the most is not necessarily me being in prison, but it's very soon in justice. You know, you can accept bad things happen when they're, when they're earned. You know, the irony of it is that my father and mother will probably sleep better at night. You know, I had truly done this and I told them the reason why I'm in prison is because I've done this.
And I was like, okay, we're there because we deserve to be there. We still love them. We're still going to take care of them. We're still going to make, you know, either a son. But at least we don't have to have someone anymore that he's somewhere where he never deserved to be. Right. They don't necessarily worry about me being in prison because you know, they come to see me and they see me that I'm fine.
You know, I didn't mean I'm fine. I'm healthy. You know, whenever they come visit me, I've been good spirit and everything like that. So, you know, for the prosecutor to say that the reason why I can't, because I can't look these people in the face of it, you know, the, the, the, the contradiction in that is, it would actually be easier for them to deal with me being in prison if they knew that I deserve to be here.
I can't say what would truly be easier for his family, knowing their son had murdered someone or feeling as if he's been taken from them unjustly. But it is true that it has not always been fine in prison. He's adaptable. He pointed out to me that he'd never been independent anyway. First award of his parents, then award of the state.
He spent the initial part of his sentence at a prison in Jessup, about a 30 minute drive for his family. It was a looser place than where he is now at North Branch in Cumberland, a maximum security prison more than two hours away from Baltimore.
The prisons that I've been in have been like, they're fairly like corrupt places, so they're not really strict in a sense where, you know, it's like, oh, you got to do his visit this time, you got to do this at that time. They may be corrupted in the right word, but maybe it actually is. In Jessup, especially, people got away with all kinds of craziness. That prison's closed now.
Anon's only had one infraction his entire time, which a guy at the DOC told me was impressive for anyone. After I asked about his prison record, Anon sent me a stack of copies, 21 different certificates and awards for completing this program or helping with that activity. In 2005, he got one called the Distinguished Gentleman's Award for your consistent display of character, mannerism, self-control, and ability to manage adversity, signed by the warden.
Anon's one infraction was for having a cell phone, which he had for five years. Actually, he had a couple of different cell phones. A new one he got, he couldn't figure out how to make it work. So, my job's to have my first phone, so I call customer service. And I'm talking to this team, all the lady, and she's like, walking me through the phone, and she's like, oh, it doesn't work. Just take it to your team, all the store. I'm like, well, I can't.
The question isn't really consistent for me to go to the team, all the store, right? She's like, no, no, he's safe. They don't know. It's a thanks-alot. She's like, all right, bye, sweetie. It's an old thing, I'm going to get her cool. At Jessup, Anon had a good job. He was a clerk in the Chaplin's office, which gave him access to a computer and to a printer and copier.
Being an entrepreneurial sort, he ran a couple of side businesses, printing stuff and making copies for people. At North Branch, he's a cook. He told me the only jobs at North Branch are either kitchen jobs or custodial jobs. He's got a group of friends he's close with, guys who came into the system the same time he did. They have a little breakfast club, which he's in charge of. Another guy does lunch. Membership has its privileges.
Today, I made these omelets, which was like caramelized apple, and I'm in onions. They were really good in cheese on the inside. And then I made some banana French toast, also hot cereal with peaches and raisins for lunch, cheese steaks. The other 1500 guys they cook for got the normal menu, boiled eggs, baloney. Anon lives in a cell by himself. He's got TV. And if he's getting in fights or seeing horrible things, he's not telling me about it.
All the stuff he tells me about is at worst PG-13. He told me, I have a life. It's not the life I planned or imagined, but I have a life. Despite the niche of call, despite the leak in Park Saltaura evidence, despite J-knowing where his car was, I confess to having reasonable doubt about whether Anon killed Hay. I'm not talking about the courtroom kind. I'm talking about the normal person kind. Obviously a trial isn't built to hold the stories Anon or anyone tells about his life.
So his lawyer, Christina Gutierrez, had to figure out another way to encourage reasonable doubt. Why didn't it work? Next time, on cereal. Serials produced by Julie Snyder, Dana Chibis and me, Emily Kahnen is our production and operations manager. Ira Glass is our editorial advisor. Editorial helped this week from Nancy Updike and Joel Lovell help on all things financial from Seth Lind, fact checking by Michelle Harris, administrative support from Elise Bergerson.
Our score is by Mark Phillips, who also mixed the episode. Our theme song is by Nick Thorburn, who also provided additional scoring. Special thanks to Jonathan Goldstein, Paul McCartle from the Baltimore Sun, Hyunjoo Lee, Martha Kang, Young Chang, Blake Morrison, and Bob Versus. Our website, where you can listen to all our episodes and find photos, letters, and other documents from the case, and sign up for our weekly emails, cerealpodcast.org.
Serial is a production of this American life and WBZ Chicago.