Previously on Serial. Well you're digging to Lincoln Park to bury your body, you're going to find somebody else's. That's Lincoln Park. I walked along the edge of the log expecting to find a body real soon. I never saw one. Lincoln Park, I'm like where is that? Do you even know where it is? Have you ever been there? When shopping with a friend of mine, an ex friend of mine, hey, no. You know it, it was not abnormal for me to leave school to go do something. And then come back.
This is a global tail-length traypec call from... A non-scientist. ...and in-made-at... A Maryland congressional police. From this American life in W.B.E.C. Chicago, it's Serial. One story told week by week, I'm Sarah Canig. Remember how last time I ended by saying that the detectives had other leads in this case besides Mr. S, the guy who found his body? That they were also starting to look at it non? Well the reason we know that is because of this memo.
The memo was dated 12 February 1999. It's from Detective Darrell Massey, too. Detective Greg McGillivary. This memo he's talking about is regarding an anonymous call. That's Detective Ritz on the witness stand at trial. He's talking about how they got this anonymous call three days after his body was found. The call came in to Detective Massey a Baltimore County cop. The caller must have had an accent of some kind because Massey's report describes him as an Asian male 18 to 21 years old.
Though it's unclear whether Asian in this case means East Asian like Korean or South Asian like Pakistani. But anyway, a mystery caller says look at the ex boyfriend. The caller further advised that the boyfriend has taken to the victim to Lincoln Park on past occasions for sexual encounter. Prior to concluding the phone interview, the caller further stated that the victim broke off their relationship with her boyfriend about a week before she was reported missing.
The caller hangs up, then a few minutes later the same guy calls back and says, oh yeah, by the way. This time the caller remembered about a year ago the suspect informed a friend of his. Pranthsi's Acer Ali Asian male 17 and a Pranthsi's. If he ever heard his girlfriend, he would drive her car into a lake. This time the caller mentions a friend of a non-bossar Ali. Actually the name of this friend is Yasser Ali. The caller says Yasser might know something, hangs up again.
The cops can't trace the call, it's out of range. Three days after the anonymous call the detectives go meet with Yasser Ali at a pizza hut. Yasser says, I didn't make that call, I don't know anything. Their notes from that conversation say, quote, if Adnan wanted to get rid of the car where would he do so? Ali indicated somewhere in the woods, possibly in Centennial Lake or the Inner Harbor. No one has ever gotten to the bottom of who made this anonymous call.
The cops didn't figure it out, Adnan's attorney didn't figure it out, I've tried to figure it out too. For a while I couldn't let it go because it seemed to me that whoever made this call, he must be the key to the whole thing. But so far I only have guesses that I can't responsibly say out loud. Anyway, the day after the pizza hut talk on February 16th, the detectives do some paperwork that will ultimately crack the whole case open for them. They get a subpoena for Adnan's cell phone records.
The results of that subpoena include a list of all the calls dialed and received on Adnan's phone on January 13th, the day he disappeared. That list will become arguably the most important piece of paper among all the thousands in this case. It'll become their map, and they'll follow it, call by call by call like footprints that end up at Adnan's front door. If you look at that call log from January 13th, there are 34 calls that day.
Obviously the first thing they have to do is figure out who all the phone numbers belong to, home, cell and page numbers. Once they do, they realize, wait a minute, one person was called six times that day, much more often than anyone else. That person is an 18 year old girl named Jennifer Pucetari. Jen is not a friend of Adnan's, she's a friend of Jay's. Remember, Jay had Adnan's car that day, and his new cell phone. He says Jen, you guys swear he won't tell Lily what about the tell you.
That's Jen talking to detectives about the night of January 13th. And I was like, he's like, when I got to tell you, when I got to tell somebody I can't, you know, and I was like, alright, it was up there. He was like, um, Adnan killed Hay. And that's why I was just like, what do you mean, Adnan killed Hay? Why? What, how, when, where, you know?
If you want to figure out this case with me, now is the time to start paying close attention, because we have arrived, along with the detectives, at the heart of the thing. This interview with Jen happens on February 27th, 1999. The day before on the 26th, the cops had gone to find Jen at her house. They explained they'd like her to come downtown to talk. Jen is thoroughly wigged out, she says she can't write now, she's busy, maybe later.
Then Jen and her friend, GoCJ, he's at work at a video store. She tells Jay, the police want to talk to me, what do I do? A trial, Jen says, quote, he told me to go down there and tell them what I knew, tell them enough to keep me out of trouble, and tell them to go see Jay, send them his way. So Jen goes downtown to see the cops later that night, and she lies to them, says she doesn't know anything. I've seen the detectives notes from that interview, and they're remarkably uninteresting.
But by the time she left that night, Jen thought it was possible, she was about to get charged. At trial, she said the last thing Detective McGillivary said during that night was, quote, everyone's a suspect, and no one's a suspect. So the next day she goes back to the detectives, this time she's got reinforcements. She's gotten a turnie with her, plus her mom. They turn on a tape recorder. Who, what, where, when, why? When you asked why, what, what did he say?
Oh, he said that, and I said that he broke his heart. Did he say anything else? No. When you ask him, how, what did he say? Said that he's struggling. So Jen gives them a motive, he broke at Nons' heart, and a method, he strangled her, which of course they already knew. But then, Jen's information gets a little mudnier. Did you ask him where it happened? He told me, and I'm, he told me, this way, he told me, he told me, he asked, he asked me what we should do.
He said, you think we should go to the police now and tell them right now. And I said, I don't know. I said, what was your involvement? Were you involved? And he said, no. He said, addon, show me her body, and ask me if I would help her bury, and, or bury, and I would help him bury her body. And I said, what did you do? Did you help him? Do you know where the body is? No, I just took him to someplace in the city and I dropped them off.
I took him to a, then I went down, took him up from a different place in the city, and then I don't remember where he said they went. I said, how did he do this? You know, when, you know, like, when was this done? And he didn't know when, he said that he strangled her. And the best by parking lot. Did he say that? But I don't know how he got the best by parking lot. Everything like that. Jay has told her, I saw the body in the trunk of a car.
A non-ass me to help bury her, but I didn't, I refused. I took him someplace and later picked him up someplace at some chick's house. And he tells her that all this went down at the best by parking lot, off security boulevard, about a mile from Woodlawn High School. Jay and Jen were close friends at this time, Winter of 99, talking or hanging out almost every day. They had known each other since elementary school. They were in the same class at Woodlawn. They graduated the year before in 98.
Now Jen was a freshman at UMBC, University of Maryland, Baltimore County. She was studying biochemistry. She was in a sorority. When Haye disappeared, Jen was on Winter break. She was working part-time as a lifeguard. And Jay was also working. One of his jobs was at F&M, a discount store. Jen said on January 13th, she and Jay had been hanging out earlier in the afternoon at her house, after she got home from work. Then Jen says Jay left her house sometime between 345 and 415.
They'd plan to meet later that evening. But then Jen had gotten a message Jay was running late. He wanted her to pick him up in the parking lot of Westview Mall, around 8 p.m. She goes there and she sees them together. She sees Jay get out of a non-s car, non-sense hide her. She says he seems to be acting normal. Jay gets in her car and that's when he tells her about the murder. After they'd driven a little ways, Jay mentions shovels. The shovels a nun had used to dig in the park to bury Haye.
But they were Jay's shovels from his house. Jay mentions to me that he knew where Adnan had done the shovel. They were shovels. I don't know how many they were. But he mentioned to me that he knew that where Adnan put the shovels. Jen tells them she drives Jay back to Westview Mall to the dumpsters back there. So that Jay can retrieve the shovels and wipe the handles clean in case of fingerprints. After that, Jay came back out of my car and he was really shook and all.
He was completely shook and all. He was like, you have to take me to go see my girlfriend now. The next day, Jen says she drove Jay to the F&M store, the same one where he worked, so that he could throw out the clothes and boots he was wearing the previous night. He pitched them into a dumpster behind the store. One of the cops points out, for a guy who's telling you he didn't kill anyone and didn't help dispose of a body, he sure is taking a lot of precautions.
He clarifies, Jay wasn't alone when the body was buried. Jay wasn't alone when the body was buried. In my city, no, to my understanding, he said where he always closed and he went home, waiting for the fingerprints on the shovels and things like that. I don't think that Jay would lie to me for sure. I don't know unless I don't pay Jay, I'd give him some of my money. I really don't see Jay helping me. Finally, the cop asks, were Adnan and Jay best friends?
And Jen says, oh no, more like Casual Aquaintainer. I don't know if Jay is going to be a good friend. Were Adnan and Jay best friends? And Jen says, oh no, more like Casual Aquaintainer's. Once the detectives talk to Jen, everything happens very fast. That same night, the detectives go get Jay at the video store where he works. It's actually a porn video store, which come trial Adnan's attorney will stress with relish at every opportunity.
Anyway, the cops bring him down to homicide. By the time they turn on the tape recorder, it's 130 in the morning on February 28th. I'm willing to answer questions and do not want an attorney this time. I decision to answer questions. So they get Jay in the interview room and initially he pulls a Jen. He tells them nothing more or less.
Says he'd walk to them all that day, gotten his girlfriend a bracelet for a birthday, hung around with Jen's younger brother, talked to Adnan sometime in the afternoon. And then after two pages of notes like that, it says, all right, I come clean. At least that's what I think it says. The detectives handwriting is messy. So maybe it says, a bright eye came down.
In any case, around 20 minutes later, they start taping and Jay tells them a whole different story, one that more or less matches Jen's. Except for one major difference, one major piece of information about this crime that the cops are still missing. They do not know where Hay's car is. They've been looking all over the place for it. They can't find it. Now Jay tells them he knows where it is.
Before during the interview prior to turning the tape on, you stated to detect him the go-ray in myself that you'd be willing to take us out and show us where the vehicle is parked. No problem. Are you still willing to do that? So that's huge for them. Jay will take them to the car. And he does. Once they're finished at headquarters, they all drive out in the middle of the night to where the car is parked, on a grassy hill behind some row houses off Edmonds and Avenue.
Within a few hours, they'll have a warrant for a non-s arrest. If it's something like we know what you and Jay did, are we talking today? And I'm like, Jay, Jay, like I had a look at a puzzlement on my face like, like, what do you mean? Like, what do you mean, Jay? A non, of course, says Jay's story isn't true. But he says he doesn't know why Jay would lie either. He says when he first heard Ritz and McGillivary mentioned Jay's name and connection with his own arrest, he was just confused.
And the same guy McGillivary, he kind of like snorted like, huh? You know what we're talking about. No, I mean, I had no idea. And the reaction that he gave me was like, it's not playing dumb. It's not like there was some secret feud between Jay and a non, at least not that I know of. There was no drug deal gone wrong, neither had bad mouthy other or stolen the other's girlfriend. To hear a non-tell it, it sounds like they didn't even know each other very well.
When I first asked him what their friendship was like, what Jay was like as a person, a non-really had to reach. He was like, um, Jay worked. He wasn't that into sports. I knew he generally kind of listened to like, I don't want to say why people use it. But he'd like listen to like, like, rock and roll things like that, like a heavy metal.
I guess you know, I can't really, um, I mean, just, you know, just like, I can't be honest with you. I couldn't even really recall like a huge long conversation that we ever had other than like a specific subject. If you could ask me something about Stephanie or something like that, we're going to go or like, we're hanging out. We wouldn't necessarily like, you know, be kicking it per se, right?
We wouldn't necessarily be kicking it per se is a non-speak for, yes, we smoked weed together, but we weren't close. However, a non was close with Stephanie, Jay's girlfriend, very close. And a non says that's the only thing he can think of now that might have turned Jay against him. Stephanie was smart to the top athlete at the school. She was beautiful by any standard. She looked like a model. She came from a family of achievers who did not approve of Jay, but had no problem with a non.
So maybe Stephanie's relationship with a non, how affectionate they were with each other, the constant talking on the phone, the prom prints and princess stuff. Maybe that was annoying at Jay. I don't know, I think it may be Christina said it or someone said it. Christina was a non's lawyer. Like, you know, when I was talking about close I was Stephanie.
And they were like, you know, if you never, like, look at me, like I was a idiot. Like, you know, if you never thought that this barber Jay, I was like, no, I never, you know, my relationship was like just a trend. So that was kind of like a hot moment where I was like, oh, so then to kind of like, now I'm thinking about all the things, you know, that took place between us.
It just kind of like started to make a little sense. Like maybe you know, mad at me because always my mind might be about you to do this to me. Anon says he didn't feel betrayed by Jay exactly because again, they weren't good enough friends for betrayal. He says it was more a feeling of injustice. So, but with Jay, it was more so kind of like, I don't know in my mind, I was kind of like, maybe the police are putting them up to this.
Maybe somehow you got caught up for me. I thought maybe he tried to claim the reward money and he got caught up in the situation. So in my heart, I kind of like, don't know. I don't know. There's a part of me that I don't want to make accusation against someone else. But it's like, you know, not being sure of it because you know, obviously he's happened to me. A year after Adnan was arrested and the case came to trial, Jay walked up to the witness stand.
And there was a moment when Adnan muttered something to him. He says he couldn't help himself. The judge called the attorneys up to the bench. Quote, I was just informed by my sheriff that the defendant made a comment to the witness as the witness approached the stand indicating that he was pathetic, the judge said. I want to advise Mr. Syed that up until now he has been perfect. Don't spoil it.
In the first taped interview, the detectives asked Jay why would Adnan turn to someone he didn't even know all that well to help him with this murder? Okay, why would Adnan call you? The criminal element of Woodlawn. I'm the criminal element of Woodlawn, he says. Is that a real or perceived, repression? I quote, perceived it by how it's viewed by the people. You know, I mean, teachers who really know me know that I'm not like that, but you know, you get certain application, you got to be.
Because of the contacts you have with helping him get his marijuana, he thinks that you're an element that he wants to assist him in disposing of the body. I would guess, but I would know someone, I would know where or something. In her closing argument at trial, prosecutor Casey Murphy posed this why him question to the jury about Jay?
Think about it, she said. Do you really believe that the defendant, meaning Adnan, could go to one of his upstanding magnet school, honor student friends or a friend from the mosque to a system with this act? Of course not. He needed someone who behaved a little more dangerously than those people. He needed someone who took risks.
The defendant hopes that you will look at Jay and say, I don't believe him. That is why the defendant chose Jay. Because if something went wrong, the defendant could point the finger at Jay. This idea, this is what Jay is more or less trying to communicate to the cops. But they ask him, if you're actually not the type of guy who knows where to bury a body, then why did you help? Why didn't you go to the police instead?
He gives you his car keys. He gives you his self. He tells you a time that he's going to call you. That he's going to kill her and you do absolutely nothing. Help me understand your trying to bother why you do absolutely nothing with that one. The bad man knows a lot of the thing is about me. Like to affect the criminal activities. I mean, it wasn't. You're selling marijuana.
So if I go to the cops and say, hey, this guy's been killed or they'll say, well, no, I'm not. He's crazy. But there's a strong dealer and this is where he gets his shit from. And this is who he deals with. He's got a rap sheet this long and go get his eggs. Well, you've never been arrested, but one time. You don't really have a rap sheet on a record one time, but I got my ass kicked funny times more than one of that.
I'm trying to talk to my dog sit down in front of my own house with fucking gun points helicopter shit with my keys and my aim. It's not. It's not just, you know, I mean seriously, I've been coming home with the organs, maybe laying a street in the snow, walking in my own house to so they can say I was a wrong dude.
These are places to do that. Yeah, so you didn't trust any. No, I don't. And my mind, I don't think to the parents of let's call the cops. It's never, never crossed my mind. I can be getting shot at it. Now wouldn't be let's call the cops. Okay, they say. So if you didn't want to go to the police yourself, how about making an anonymous call then you could have done it right after he shows you the body as you're leaving the best by parking lot.
Why don't you stop your car and say call the police say someone is just committed a murder. There's a body in the trunk of the car. I just fear. You know, I'm saying like. I got it is. Who were you afraid of if you make an anonymous phone call you could give a description of her car. You give the time number the car. I'll just say a second. Yes. If you have any questions, you can ask me on tape. I understand this. Well, I'm trying to understand why you go through all this.
I just wanted to just like shock and after that, I was part of it. So I mean, I couldn't just run all the time. I'm saying what he has ever you or your involvement in this is beyond belief other than you being afraid of the police. Or he has paid you something or like I said, he knows that so drug. I mean, that was that was. I mean, that's. If you get me locked up for that, I mean, I'm sure if I ran him out for killing Hayden, he wouldn't hesitate to term you some drugs.
Is there anything else that you'd like to add to this? I feel bad. I'm bored in doing things. I feel bad. I feel old. I'm stuck somehow. Maybe put a P or a T into it. Don't worry. I feel bad about it. I'm all in. He says, I just feel bad about it. That's all I got to say. The cops have a struggle with Jay. I have a struggle with Jay. He's the biggest mystery of this whole case for me.
The cops interview him at least four times that I know about. Two of those are on tape. And Jay also tells this story a trial, not once but twice, because the first proceeding ended in a mistrial. So at least say six times he's told what happened. And each time some details shift. Some of these discrepancies seem small to me and understandable, but some are significant and confounding.
And that distance between where a certain detail starts and where it ends up, how far it slides and why it slides. I've spent untold hours trying to measure that distance, trying to weigh it, for clues as to what might actually be true. For example, this is from Tape Interview No. 1. The cops are asking about what he and a non did that morning of the 13th. You picked up and where are you from? We had a tour with Bucking Mall. We did a little shopping together.
Now here's Tape Interview No. 2 from March 15th, two weeks later. And where did you go? We went to Security Square Mall. That's a different mall, Security Square Mall, a couple of miles away. I put this one in the category of probably not a big deal, right? Maybe Jay must spoke when he said West View initially. There are a bunch of little things like this. For example, when they're driving around that afternoon after they've ditched Hayes Car at the I-70 Park and Ride.
At the first trial, Jay says they both got high in a non's car. But the second trial, he says only he smoked, and non didn't want to. Then there are more significant changes, but still you can chalk them up to Jay trying to protect his friends, or trying to protect himself. In the first Tape Interview, Jay says they're grabbing some food at a restaurant when Officer Adcock calls it non asking if he's seen Hay.
The next time he tells it, he says that when that call comes, they're at a friend's apartment. A friend whose father happens to be a homicide detective in another county. Jay tells the cops he'd actually been to her house three different times that day, but he didn't want to get her in trouble. In the first Tape statement, Jay says he refused to help dig a grave for Hay. Two weeks later, he says they both dug the hole.
But then there are other changes, bigger changes, where it's harder to judge why the details shift. This one, for instance. In the first Tape Interview, Jay says a non only told him that same day that he was going to kill Hay. Two weeks later, Jay says that a non had started talking about it beforehand. Four or five days before. I think I'm going to kill her. He says that a lot. Or I can't mistake with them several cases, you said that.
And he says that none enlisted his help with the murder on the 12th, the night before Hay disappeared. In this version, Jay tells Jen about it in advance too. But by the time Jay testifies at trial, he goes back to the first version again, that he knew nothing until the day of. And that he didn't really take it seriously. There's so many more of these. There's a whole side trip at non and Jay supposedly take that afternoon after Hay has been killed to smoke some weed in Patapsco State Park.
That trip disappears by trial, just drops out of the narrative. And Jay's whereabouts, in between the time he drops at non back at school at midday and when he meets back up with him later that afternoon. The stories about where he is are so messy and so confusing that I can't even keep the different versions straight. But none of these discrepancies gives me or I think the cops as much pause as this next one. This is the mother of what the cops call Jay's inconsistencies.
It's about where a non first showed him Hay's body in the trunk of a car. Here's from taped interview number one. Jay says a non-cultime about 3.45 pm saying, come pick me up. I want to pick him up, come off of him as an avenue at a strip and he pops a trunk opening. We'll say it. One headman is an avenue off of the strip. Do you record any four streets one headman is an avenue where you go to meet him? I don't know by name, but I can tell if he's by date.
A strip is a small outdoor drug market, just like a block where you can buy drugs. Jay tells the cops that it takes him about 15 or 20 minutes to get to the location on Edmondsson. And later, when the cops drive out with Jay to get his car, Jay's chosen this spot on Edmondsnav and you. It's just a few blocks from where they ditched Hay's car, he said. Now, listen to what he says on March 15th.
And while it enroaked to your house, you received a phone call from Adnan on his cell phone, which is in your position. And the conversation was one. That this is dead. Come and get me. I made this by. Best by. Just like Jen had originally told them. This is a problem for the cops, this change. Because it's not something you forget where you were when you saw a dead body in the trunk of a car. It's not a slip of the tongue.
And it's not clear what the calculation is. Edmondsnav and you versus the best by parking lot. What's the advantage of one place over the other? Why tell this lie? Maybe he's just saying it because it matches Jen's story. Or did he lie to Jen in the first place and then forget? I've a friend who's worked for a long time in the Baltimore judicial system. She knows a lot of cops. And she reminded me when I was telling her about this case.
Cops are the most skeptical people in the world. They pretty much assume everyone is lying to them all the time. Ritz and McGillivary aren't newbies. McGillivary came from a law enforcement family. His father had been captained in the homicide unit in fact. And Ritz was known in the department and in the state's attorney's office as a skilled and meticulous investigator. So they're not suckers. They're taking careful note of the changes in J's stories.
It's why they keep going back to him to clear up the inconsistencies. In the second taped interview, McGillivary confronts Jay, taking off a list of the main things he's lied to them about. And Jay admits to all the lies. But even so, what struck me is that they don't really press him on any of it. The most forceful McGillivary gets is in this exchange about the location of the trunk pop. He actually killed her at Best Buy to my knowledge.
Yes. You weren't present for that. Why did you lie about the location? I figured there was cameras there. Somebody had spotted him. Don't we was doing. But if you actually didn't assist her, I'm associated with murder. Why would you lie about? Because I'm a location. I'm associated with it. But you did lie. Yes. Jay is saying, I figured there were security cameras at Best Buy. So that's why I lied. Because I didn't want to be associated with it. What is he talking about? This is nonsensical.
When he told the Edmonds and Avenue version, he was already deeply associated with it. And if there were cameras at Best Buy parking lot, wouldn't that help his story? If they showed Hay's car or a non-walking around or putting Hay's body in the trunk. But McGillivary lets it go. It moves on to another point. And just so you know, as best as we can tell from workers at the store and from the former landlord, there probably weren't security cameras in the Best Buy parking lot back in 1999.
And there's certainly no mention of any security footage in the police reports. At the end of both of Jay's tape statements, the detectives kind of come out with it. Are you telling us the truth right now? On February 28th, after Jay has told them off tape that he doesn't know anything about the murder, Ritz points out, your story has completely changed since you first came in this room. All the information that you provided to an interview has been a complete truth. It's at Best Buy now.
And then Jay reinforces it. All right, I believe that concludes this interview. I'm going to go on a path that we can remember. I mean, truthfully on. Okay. But of course, two weeks later, big swaths of his story have changed. So McGillivary asks him again on March 15th. Do you take interview that you've given us right now? Is that truth? Is it the best that I can possibly humanly at this point in time, remember? That is the truth. Did you kill... Hey, Lee. No, sorry to go.
Were you there when had none killed? I put it to Bill Ritz when I talked to him briefly on the phone. Jay's story kept changing. You were catching the inconsistencies, and he was having to explain them and clean up his story. So what ultimately made you believe him? Ritz said they believed Jay's story because, quote, we were able to investigate and corroborate what he was saying, unquote. So how exactly did they corroborate it? Next time on cereal.
Cereal is produced by Julie Snyder, Dana Chivas and me. Emily Connan is our production and operations manager. Ira Glass is our editorial advisor. Fact checking by Karen Fregalismith. Robert Skoring music by Nick and Mark Phillips, who also mixed our show. Special thanks to Gregory Collins, Rich Oris and Lutetti. Our website where you can listen to all our episodes and find photos, letters and other documents from the case. And you can sign up for our weekly emails, cerealpodcast.org.
Cereal is a production of this American life and WB Easy Chicago.