There's a young boy the words that has occurred up from our surgery prosthetic picture bergery telling me I'm normal, but normal? Would they never really make me see? They are always painting discriminated. But in the last episode, we looked at accessibility and inclusive design and learned that the global unemployment rate for disabled people is somewhere between fifty and sev In this episode, we ask why this is the case and what brands and activists are doing to
change the global picture for the disabled community. Join me as I speak to disabled entrepreneurs, leaders from companies trying to change hiring cultures to become more inclusive, and we ask how can we create a more equitable workplace moving forward. I'm Sophie Morgan. This is equal to episode five, equal to the Hunt for Employment Equality. The first time I tried getting a job jobs like washing dishes, folding laundry, I kept getting discriminated against. When I learned about four
tens as a foreigner kind of blew my mind. I had no idea, but it was legal in America to play people with disabilities less standing of wage. You don't have to be able to see to wash dishes or fold laundry, but the employers assumed site was required, so they passed me over. There are many more people with disabilities in the world who don't feel that they can be open about their disability, and particularly in the workplace.
If we're going to be committed and executed the building a better working world, that world's got to be inclusive for off and and that world is almost by definition, incredibly diverse. Once a look with Gutman created the Paralympic Games following the Second World War. His vision was to use sports to rehabilitate people with spinal cord injury back
into society. In four a Jewish doctor who was a refugee from Nazi Germany started a new spinal injuries unit at Stoke Manderville Hospital, and to do this he gave them the confidence and the skills needed to join the workforce again. Almost more than any other outcome, Gutman believed that employment mattered most. The Paralympics may have evolved from a small archery competition into one of the largest sporting events in the world, but has it made the impact
on employment that Gutman would be proud of? To answer it plainly, many of the incredible athletes that we've watched compete in the Tokyo Games can't even make a living from playing sport. Many survive on benefits. Take New Zealand's Paralympic team, for example, of the twenty nine people who represented New Zealand this year, only seven of them are
considered full time employees. Or take a look at Annie is Chiconggo from Namibia, Go miss In Fred Chicongo wearing him down, Going miss Justin Fred Chicago's got in Chicongo, Drive through Chicongo one it from Gomez in second, silver, third fan, fourth Paralympic record two. At his second Paralympic Games, the visually impaired sprinter returned home from the Rio Paralympics
with the country's first ever Paralympic gold medal. He hoped that his success might have the very least facilitate an interview for a job with the police, but he couldn't even get an interview. Now, it would be easy to assume that his disability justified such prejudicial behavior. People might justify it thinking how could a blind man be a policeman?
But therein lies the problem. The lack of employment is not because disabled people on mass are unskilled or unqualified, but because we live in a world where our differences make us lesser, where limits are placed upon us, where what's possible is dictated to us. In short, we live in an ablest world. And when you start looking into employment for disabled people in society more generally, we have a lot of work to do. Statistics vary by country,
but one thing is the same. All around the world, employment levels for disabled people are much lower than for non disabled people. In the UK it's fifty two for disabled people compared with eighty one percent for non disabled people. In the USA it's thirty five point two percent compared with seventy seven point six percent. In Australia it's percent compared with and these are just the countries where we
can source the data. It's a well known problem that when it comes to collecting the figures around disability employment, it's not always straightforward. What we do know, however, is that the COVID pandemic has made the situation even worse. As French power as Leach Charles Catherine, the Associate director at the National Organization on Disability, tells US, I think the pandemic was a magnifier of issues that we've been
facing for decades for our community. People with disabilities are usually underemployed, and when there are employed, are usually more vulnerable.
And so there was a phenomenon called last hired, first fired that really took place in May, June, July, August when the crisis really hit UM And and it's true that millions of people with disabilities last for jobs at that time, and for for people like myself who really fight too fanail to sometimes create ten or a hundred jobs in the company, to see a million jobs disappear like this in just you know, a few weeks was
was crushing. We may not have the exact figures, but what we do know is that the situation for disabled people all around the world currently is not good. So what is being done about it? So The Ability People is an organization that I co founded with my business part Steve carter Um, and it's staffed entirely by people with impairments and disabilities and medical conditions. Liz Johnson is
a former Paralympic gold medalist for Paralympics GB. After her retirement from swimming in two thousand and sixteen, she founded The Ability People, an agency to help disabled people get jobs and the view is to normalize differences within the workplace. But my primary aim was to create more meaningful opportunities
for people with disabilities. Liz explained that she was inspired to create the Ability People due to the fact that the employment gap for disabled people was stuck at thirty percent and that figure had not moved in over a decade. Then I was like, well, what what is that? What is it? Why is it that this is not moving? Like, what is the issue? Is it that people don't want jobs? Is it that people can't work, or is it the fact that they're not understood, or is it the fact
that the system is letting them down? And the reality is all of the above, because because the one thing we need to remember is people with disabilities, they're human. So like the spread of like their abilities and their needs and all is no difference to the rest of the population. So you're going to find people that are qualified or don't have no incentive to work. But but the the issue in this space specifically was that those that did want to work didn't have an equitable experience
or opportunity to access employment. And even though Liz found her career and her platform through the Paralympics. She brought up one of the big issues of talking about disability employment in the context of the Games. Not everyone is a Paralympian. They're Paralympians, so rightly or wrongly, sometimes that opens the door for you, right and sometimes people are blinded by the fact that you you, you might and I'll be able to do that job. But if you're
a Paralympian, we're going to give you a chance. And my frustration came from the fact that, like I said, people aren't Paralympians, and probably them don't want to be like nobody like a lot of time when you're young and your aspirations to be an athlete or a football or whatever it is. But like in reality, the majority of people don't want to go to the Oalympics or they don't want to have a life that isn't an athlete.
That's fine, And for those who aren't athletes, the job market for disabled people is equally, if not more challenging. You may remember Harbon Gurma from our conversation on law. Here. She is as a deaf, blind Harvard graduate talking about her own experiences of looking for work. Employment discrimination is a huge problem over seventy of blind people are under unemployed, and the statistics for deaf blind people are even higher.
And I grew up with those statistics, with the constant fear that I would not be able to get a job. And the first time I tried getting a job jobs like washing dishes or folding laundry, I kept getting discriminated against. Those are tactle jobs. You don't have to be able to see to wash dishes or bold laundry, but the employers assumed site was required, so they passed me over.
Assumptions like these stem from a lack of understanding. Not every disabled person will need extra support and accommodations to do a job, but when they do, employers in places like America and the UK should be making reasonable adjustments to support disabled people in the workplace. But what does that actually mean? Eddie and Doppu, who you might remember was also in the episode about law, thinks that this
type of woolie language is problematic. I've got a bit of beasts with the language around reasonable accommodation, right, I have always had. And it's at a philosophical level. Question I asked myself is what is reasonable? Who is who is reasonable who is being unreasonable? Right? And and the reason why this is important is because when we demand more um, we get seen as being unreasonable. So legal support doesn't always help. And in some countries the legislation
can even prevent disabled people from working. Facundo have as Penniless is a U and human rights and disability advisor, and he spoke about some countries with shocking laws. We have laws that for example, we want when we are not working, so they're excluding us through and the social protection system and not to be part of the of the workforce. And and that is changing like in Argentine. Now in New Zealand, UM there are laws that say that we cannot work at all, and that also is changing,
like in some Zimbabwe or Samoa. But none of these changes can happen without an active to society behind them, right and your understanding of what is to be a person with disability. What has become apparent through this conversation is that increasing the confidence and skills of disabled people is not enough if they get turned away when they apply for jobs. And we see once again the disabled people have to self advocate for legal and physical access
to the workplace. We need something more. We need workplaces around the world to acknowledge the problem and to commit to changing it. At DAVAS two thousand and nineteen, we put disability inclusion center stage for the first time and made a worldwide call. So this is a crisis, but there is a solution to help end the disability inequality crisis. The Valuable five hundred is a global movement of five hundred big businesses from Apple to zero insurance, but aims
to equalize the playing field for disabled people. It provides companies with resources and support on aspects such as workforce governance and learning opportunities. The tagline is disability is Our Business, something that should be true for every workplace. Hank Pribilski is the Global Vice Chair for Transformation at e Y previously known as Ernst and Young. He has also their
Global Exact Sponsor and Disability Inclusion. E Y is one of the biggest consulting firms in the world and they were one of the founding members of the Valuable five hundred. Exact producers said asked him how and why the company lead the way. If we're going to be committed and executed building a better working world, that world's got to be inclusive for all, and that world is almost by
definition incredibly diverse. So when you think about that opportunity for bringing together that diverse world and inclusive environment, you know, we just see that so core. Uh in the area of diverse abilities, we see, Um, we're proud of what we've accomplished, but we see so much more opportunity head and I think it's a little bit of that, you know, that continual push to drive and do more in align
with others who share those goals. Um. You know, if you look at some some areas, like in the America's where we've been a leader in the Disability Equality Index for the top five years. Were very proud of that, but we also recognize, you know, we have a long way to go. And sometimes that's we look at different parts of our world where we may be farther ahead in one world than another. But when you really look at the value of five hundred UM, it is a
great way of sharing best practices. It's creating an alignment of five companies, and think about the size and scale
of that. It's over twenty million employees, thirty six different headquartered country ease I think eight trillion in revenue represented by that group and and you know, sharing best practices, learning from each other, and as we said earlier, challenging each other, you know, bringing your authentic self to work inclusive and employment journey, accessible inclusive workplace and really lastingly, equipping all our employees to be disability inclusive and really
rallying that around. I think that's you know, we've enjoyed that, um, the camaraderie within the five hundred, We've we've enjoyed the learnings, and I mean we're enjoy the competitiveness of of each pushing each other. E Y have a great track record in this space, and it's great to see brands and corporations like e Y helping to bring around meaningful change. I wanted to get an idea of how the Valuable
Five work in practice. Esther Berberg, who we heard in the last episode, works at the fashion brand Tommy Hill Figure. Her role is responsible for everything related to sustainable business and in the nation. We asked Esther how aspects of diversity and inclusion fit into the idea of a sustainable company. What we're doing at the moment is also in line
with the pledge of the Valuable Um. We're we're creating a strategy that um, this dismantles able is m within the organization so as we say it, So that means that we need better measures to hire people and to to make sure that people with disabilities also feel like they belong, but also to create a different attitude within the organization towards people with a disability. So that's I think a really important part. UM. We're doing at the moment a big review of our talent practices in Europe
for instance, with an eye on inclusion and diversity. So what are all the leavers when we hire, when we retain, when we promote people, and how can we actually give the disadvantaged communities or the underrepresented communities, um, you know, a better a better platform, so create a more equitable situation uh and help them to be more represented at different levels um. Recently we had a talk also around
neurodiversity UM. And there are actually people also from the company that spoke up about how they were new or diverse and what that meant. And it opened up so many doors for conversation, but also so many opportunities for people to say like, oh, okay, so if I act a little bit more like that or that then that actually helps you and it makes it all you know, more agreeable for you, um and and for us in
the end as well. And that connection and that that conversation really has to happen because first people need to be aware and then they need to feel like, Okay, you know, we're all co owner of the of the fact that we need to make this a place where people all feel they belong and in the end, you know, all of us become better if a workplace is more diverse.
It's not only the people from the underrepresented groups. Everybody benefits from it, because a more diverse environment is just a more rich environment, and you will get better ideas and better books and you know, more fun. I think in the thinking about disability, equity under the umbrella of sustainability is an idea that other innovators have utilized. After all, disabled people aren't going away, so making a workplace disability
friendly is making it future proof. Christina Mallon spoke in the last episode about the design and marketing considerations for different lived experiences, but much of her work is through the framing of social sustainability. I've used social sustainability kind of as the term when I'm explaining what I do because there's so much talk around sustainability, but people only
really talk about climate sustainability. But it's much broader. So when you know, we look at the u N sustainability goals, many of them are about social issues and if you can link it to the u N sustainability goals, people's it starts to click more. Also, there's budgets, usually there's sustainability, but there's heads of sustainability at companies. There's not a
lot of heads of disability. Movements like the valuable five hundred and concepts like social sustainability are useful as frameworks to show the possibility to measure success. But most importantly, they proved the need to employ people with disabilities, especially since the pandemic, when the number of people working from home in Britain nearly doubled from twelve point four percent to twenty five point nine in companies realize it is
possible to accommodate disabled people without compromising their workflow. In this podcast, we have disabled people from all over the UK and Canada who have been able to fulfill their roles with no problems due to the modern technology on offer. There is a huge opportunity coming out of the pandemic to support disabled people to gain more flexible working commitments which suit their daily needs and attributes better than an
office nine to five. But we have to ensure that we take this opportunity to change working cultures to ensure that this progress continues as we move out of the pandemic.
The employment numbers are looking pretty good since um, you know, June July, because the industry that is bouncing back the fastest are industries that um tend to hire more people disabilities and average, so that's restoration, tourism, grocery stores, and so the numbers are now higher than they were, you know, around two thousand, eight thousand nine, So that is very encouraging, but we're still at what we look is not so much unemployment but workforce participation rate, and so now it's
around thirty for people disabilities against about seven for the rest of the population. So we're still at half and we know that it should be much higher than this. So if it's better and we're bouncing back, but the crisis has clearly shown that people disabilities were more vulnerable too.
If we're losing for her job or being laid off but as much as the pandemic has brought some opportunities, there is a long way to go for disabled people to have true equality of opportunity and employment in the
US as well as across much of the world. In many US states, they're still upholding a shocking piece of legislation called four teen C, which allows employers to pay sub minimum wages to disabled people if the employer believes that their disability impairs their productivity for the work they perform. Charles Catherine, who we heard earlier, adds to this, talking about the disproportionate impact that COVID had had on job losses for disabled people in the first year of the pandemic.
When I learned about four teen C as as a foreigner, kind of blew my mind. I had no idea that it was legal in America to pay people with disability is less standing on wage. You know, it was part of in I think thirty eight as a progressive legislation, and I think it probably was. But now it's completely outdated. And you know, although a few states have phased out of four tency, it's still a minority. It's about, um,
you know, a handful. But Charles says the plans are in motion now to bring an end to this humiliating and discriminateshy piece of legislation across the US for good. What we're trying to do with energy is advocate at the federal level uh TO to change and phase out of four tency and there are a few initiatives that are out there. The most popular one is the Transformation to Competitive Employment ACTUM, which might be introduced in the
Senate pretty soon UM. And that is what we think as a as a good solution, balanced solution to phase out of four tency over time and with appropriate support for companies because it's a significant change. Right, there's hundreds of thousand people disabilities in America that penny for hours for a really hard jobs and that has been allowed by the government because we don't really think about those as jobs. We think of it more as support right
for people's disabilities and things to do. We spoke with a para athlete from Afghanistan called Nila f bay At. Nilopha was the captain of the Afghans women's wheelchair basketball team in Kabul. As the whole world knows, the Taliban have reasserted control across the country and their extremest attitudes towards women in work and sport or people with disabilities
have started to take hold. This led to Nilopha leaving her home country where she was employed full time by the International Red Cross, to resettle as a refugee in bill Bao in Spain. She told us about her initial experiences in Spain and the lack of visibility for disabled people in employment, and she starts to look for a job for herself. When I'm working around, I see there is a lot of people. They have desible, some of them use willch here, some of them has crashed or
some of them without that, but they have disability. But still I didn't see anyone to have a job, and I do know that it will happen with me as well or no, like the cr the office that they are helping and working for refugees here, Um, I didn't see anyone to have disability. Nil first observation is anecdotal,
but there is evidence for it. In two thousand and nineteen, a third of the non disabled population in Spain were unemployed, Yet for people with disabilities it's reportedly nearly three quarters. I say reportedly, as the numbers can be skewed due to disclosure rates, as some disabled people do not like to disclose their disability publicly. Liz Johnson, who we had from earlier, explains, this is a bit of a double
edged short. You want to be in a world where people don't have to tell you they have a disability in order to access and a fair opportunity. But similarly, you want to gauge how well you're doing. So it's difficult. So that and and sometimes that's why that number is load to start with. And actually when organizations are talking about wanting to be more inclusive, sometimes we're like, do
you have the people already here? They just don't feel comfortable in this environment, or they're not able to show their true self, which is why when we interact with them, when we do pieces of work with them, the disclosure rate goes up because the messaging is there and people feel a lot more comfortable and understood. Yes I can, suddenly, yes I can, Gee, I'm afraid to go on has
turned into yes I can. Dan Brooks, who we heard from in an earlier episode and it was one of the pioneers behind Channel Calls hiring of disabled talent to work on the Paralympic Games, agrees there are many more people with disabilities in the world who don't feel that they can be open about their disability, and particularly in the workplace, because they think that it will be it'll
can against them. And what I would do to those people is I would say, I understand that, and I understand why it's the case that people who aren't disabled in companies may have some apprehension. If we come back to the beginning of the episode and look with Gutman's intent for the Paralympics to uplift disabled people in society, how close have we gotten to his goal. Thankfully, more businesses are now talking about the need for a more
inclusive employment policy. But considering Gutman began the Paralympic movement in the progress being made is far too slow, and we also needed to find success because we cannot rely
on numbers alone. As Eddie and Dopeu explained in our conversation, if we insist on those things culturally, um and socially and economically right and start seeing um, you know, disabled people as CEOs in the boardroom, you know, I think that creates a critical mass of disabled people with power and influence who can then you know, sort of spur um uh and and really catalyze the kind of broader,
you know, human rights changes that we need. Right, So it starts with closing the disability of wealth gap as well, right, because let's be real, you know, most of us are living hand to mouth, even even even when we look successful. Let's expand on Eddie's point about living costs as a disabled person. According to the Disability Charity Scope, disabled people in the UK spend an average of five dred and fifty pounds a month on costs related to their disability.
For one in ten, costs of this sort amount to over a thousand pounds a month. Disability is expensive no matter where you are in the world. In addition, of the estimated one billion disabled people in the world are living in developing countries. According to the w h O, disability and poverty are inextricably linked in many countries, including
some of the world's most developed. Not only is there no legislation to promote equality of opportunity, but there is actually legislation that reinforces inequality and a two tier system to access the workplace if you are disabled. It is indisputable that it is likely to be harder for you to find work than if you are not. However, there is hope with initiatives like the Valuable five hundred supported
by brands like e Y and Tommy Hill. Figure there is a global force for change, and whilst the pandemic undoubtedly had a negative disproportionate impact on people with disabilities in the workforce compared to the non disabled community, it has also shown employers that flexible working conditions enrich all employees experiences and can give employers access to a wider talent pool that they may have otherwise ignored. Join me in the final episode, when we'll be looking to the future,
specifically thinking about the decade ahead. Will reflect on the impact that the Tokyo Paralympics has had on the world. We'll talk to leaders from the Paralympic movement and the wider disability sector about the potential of the next decade as the Paralympics head to Beijing. Harris Milan and Los Angeles. I've been your host, Sophie Morgan. We'll see you next time.
These podcasts have been made possible because of the support of Procter and Gamble, P and G share our ambition to create a more equal world, a world where everyone can have equal access and the opportunity to thrive. We are very grateful for their partnership in making these conversations a reality. Of people with a direct involvement in the production of the podcast, including guests identify as disabled. This podcast was created by Greg Nugent, co founder of Harder
Than You Think. I'm Sophie Morgan, your host and executive producer. Fellow executive producers are Chanaid Burke, Greg NuGen and Barnaby Spurrier, Laura i'ms Mark Pritchard and Kimberly Dobrnner. Thank you to the I p C and Channel four for their support and use of archive material. Thanks to our podcast production partner, Stripped Media, and also to Seneca Women for their assistance
with distributing this show. If you want to follow the equal To story and join the conversation hashtag equal to, go to our website ht Whitey dot world, where you will also find the transcript and video versions of the podcast, along with subtitles and a BSL signed version in the coming days.