You're listening to the Savage Lovecast, Dan Savage's sex and relationship show for grown-ups. If you're under 18, get out of here, young'un. if you're stuck in a relationship quandary or if you're looking for sexual harmony well there's nothing you can't ask Anyone else remember Ross Rabaliati? Rabaliati won the gold medal at the 1998 Winter Olympics in Japan in the men's giant snowboard slalom.
1998 was the first Olympic Games to include snowboarding, a sport the International Olympic Committee added to the Games to attract a younger demo. Two days after Rabaliati won the gold, the first gold medal ever awarded to a snowboarder, The International Olympic Committee stripped him of his medal and marched him out of the Olympic Village because he failed a drug test. The IOC did not find a performance-enhancing drug in Ross's system.
what they found was arguably a performance dehensing drug, cannabis. So, this 26-year-old snowboarder in 1998, like most people his age at the time? He liked to smoke a little pot. It was huge news, international news. I covered it at the time. And by covered it, I mean, I got high and wrote a few blog posts about it. pointing out how absurd it was for the Olympic Committee to ding someone for using a drug that literally slows you down and might actually hand your competitors an advantage.
But more importantly, that by stripping Rebaliotti of his medal, the IOC risked alienating the very demo the IOC hoped to attract to the Olympics by adding snowboarding to the games in the first place. Young people. Rabaliati's story has a happy ending, sort of. Rabaliati appealed the decision. Two days later, he got his gold medal back, but he was thrown out of Japan, interrogated by the police, barred from the closing ceremonies in 1998.
And then, after the terror attacks of September 11, 2001, Rabaliati was put on a no-fly list and barred from entering the United States, which ended his professional snowboarding career. For the record... There were no snowboarders or potheads among the hijackers on 9-11. But happy ending still, Rabaliati, who works in the cannabis industry now, he will always be an Olympian and a gold medalist.
They didn't take that away from him. So I was thinking about Rabaliati, an athlete who was penalized for doing something lots of people his age were doing in 1998. I was thinking about Rabaliati this weekend. while reading about Kurt Adams Rosenthal's, an athlete who was on track to go to the Olympics in 2028, who is being penalized for doing something lots of people his age are doing in 2025.
posting thirsty pics to the internet. A British canoeist has been banned from competing and says he is being forced to choose between his Olympic dream and his OnlyFans account, reported the BBC last week. Paddle UK, which is the name of the governing body of this sport. Paddle UK removed Rosenthal's from their world-class program, a UK sports lottery funded initiative to put athletes on the course for the Olympics.
pending an investigation. The world-class program that Rosenthal's was removed from, it provides athletes with a stipend, money to live on, in theory, while they train. But it's not enough money to live on. £16,000 a year, which is why Rosenthal started an OnlyFans account, which earned him more than £100,000 in four months.
Back to the hilariously named Paddle UK, which sounds like a fetish club for spanking enthusiasts. There's literally a club in New York City called Paddles. Anyway, in addition to stripping Rosenthal's of his stipend. Paddles UK banned him from competing and barred him from even contacting staff, trainers, and other athletes. They have exiled him. I do not know what it is.
they're afraid of. OnlyFans accounts are a lot of things, but they are not contagious. As injustices go, I recognize that this is not the biggest one in the world right now. If we didn't live in such deranged times, this would be a bigger story. It would be international news, like Ross Rebagliati was international news in 1998.
With the National Guard being deployed to LA and mothers being grabbed off the streets by ICE goons and the Trump administration ignoring court orders and everything else going on all around the world. Paddle UK crushing the dreams of... one hot white boy, hardly seems to matter. Which is why I didn't really make the news here outside of the gay news sites, which seized the opportunity to share Rosenthal's shirtless pics, which are what got me to click on the story.
But I think Rosenthal's story is important. It touches on sex, which is my portfolio, and also... Speaks to kids today and the things they're into that seem normal to them that the adults in the room or the adults at Paddle UK and the IOC may not understand. Just like... They didn't understand how recreational pot use was normal to the kids watching the Olympics in 1998.
I particularly wanted to highlight something I thought was interesting about an interview Rosenthal's did on Sky News in Britain. Sky News is a conservative news network which shows how attitudes toward the kind of sex work Rosenthal's... was doing low key sex work light on OnlyFans, how attitudes are shifting rapidly now about that kind of adult content creation in the same way attitudes toward pot use were shifting rapidly.
in 1998. Let's play the clip. How does it feel making that kind of content? Is that what you wanted to do ultimately? Or do you feel you have to do it? No. I don't think anybody on the platform, I'm sure there's a small exception who are truly passionate about that type of content. I was not passionate about it.
And is it my mum's dream? Absolutely not. You know, she raised good kids with, you know, good morals. What does she think about it? Because you take your clothes off and plenty more. So what does she think about it? Being very honest, she was crying the first week non-stop. She worked so hard to sacrifice her life to get us into sport, to prove that people from underprivileged backgrounds can.
reach something and achieve something good in life and then when i did that it's like well that's not what's going on here it wasn't ideal but As my mom is somebody who's done whatever it takes all these years, things I'm not going to say on television, she did eventually come around and understood why I did what I did.
I want to credit the reporter, Matt Barbette of Sky News, again, a conservative news network, for asking the right question, not how could you do this or whether a person should be allowed to do this. But are you doing this for the right reasons? Are you doing this kind of low-key sex work light because you want to do it? And Rosenthal's, as it turns out, has complicated, ambiguous feelings about it.
He tried to hold down part-time jobs while training, couldn't make it work, so he turned to OnlyFans to keep a roof over his head and a canoe under his butt and his Olympic dream alive. And he admits to feeling weird about it at first and happy about the pain it caused his mother. But he's come to enjoy the work now. As I've said a million times before.
If we don't want people doing sex work for the wrong reasons, we don't want people doing sex work because they feel they have no other choice. If we don't want people doing sex work under economic duress, we need to... Fight for universal basic income, living wages, healthcare coverage for all. If Paddle UK specifically doesn't want its rowers starting OnlyFans accounts, which other athletes have done after going to the Olympics,
It needs to pay them more, so they don't need to start OnlyFans accounts. Unless, of course, they want to. In which case, they should still be allowed to. But we can't as a society, or we shouldn't as a society. tolerate economic conditions that force some people to turn to sex work, low key and light or hardcore and heavy. And then instead of doing something about these economic conditions that force people to do sex work, they didn't.
choose to do freely, blame and shame people who did what they had to do to survive. I hope Rosenthal gets his happy ending too. and not the kind he might share with his followers and OnlyFans. I hope Paddle UK backs down and let Rosenthal's compete. And if he earns it, go to the Olympics. Ross Robaliati. Helped change the public perception of pot users in 1998. Someone could use pot and be an Olympic champion. Using pot didn't make you a loser. Rosenthal's.
by refusing to be ashamed, by fighting back, and by calling attention in all of his interviews to the kind of class discrimination that keeps kids from working class backgrounds like his out of elite athletics, Rosenthal's is changing things too. So, Rosenthal's may not get to the Olympics in the end. Paddle UK may not back down. But Rosenthal's, as far as I'm concerned, is already a winner.
All right, Magnum subs, save the date. Our next Savage Love Live for our Magnum subscribers is Thursday, June 12th, 12 noon Pacific. Savage Love Live is an exclusive event, a live show just for our amazing Magnum subscribers. If you want to get your question to me ahead of time, if you want to get to the front of the line, you can record your question now at savage.love slash events. The link to the live show will drop into your email inboxes at 10 a.m. Pacific on
Thursday. Mark your calendars, submit your cues in advance, and join us for Savage Love Live. Thursday, June 12th, 12 p.m. Pacific. And if you are not yet a Magnum sub and you would like to come to your first Savage Love Live, you can become a subscriber now for half off. for all of June at savage.love slash subscribe. Another date to put on your calendar.
Donald Trump is throwing himself a dictator-style military parade on June 14th like he's the king of America in Washington, D.C. In response, there are going to be no kings protests all over the country. on June 14th in more than 1,500 cities. To find out about the protest in your community and how you can go and what you can do and when you should show up, go to nokings.org.
All right, coming up on today's show, questions. We've got tons of questions, including a question from a listener who had a squirting incident during an early formative sexual experience that has led to long-term hang-ups. I don't want to call it trauma. Just hang up that question and many more on the show. And our guest this week, stand up comedian Nico Carney. We talk about comedy as a form of activism.
genital preferences and the people who have them, which can include trans men, interrogating your desires for your own benefit, how testosterone changes sexual desire, and so much. More, a little bit of my convo with Nico is on the micro. All of it is on the Magnum. Again, you can become a Magnum sub at savage.love slash subscribe now. All right, let's get to the first call.
This episode is brought to you by Helix Sleep, the very best mattress designed with your comfort in mind. Right now, get 20% off the mattress purchase. Go to helixsleep.com slash savage. This episode of the Lovecast is brought to you by the good folks at Squarespace. They make it easy to build a beautiful website, blog, or online store.
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for private VIP access to deals that are too good to announce on this or any podcast. Liberator, when your mission takes you beyond missionary. cisgender woman. I have this issue that I need to pee before I have an orgasm. Started when I was in high school, very uneducated about sex. Blame the public school system. And my boyfriend was going down on me and I, what was probably squirted, but what I assumed was peed all over his face. He loved it at the time, but I was super embarrassed.
My sheets got all wet. I was at my parents' house. It was this like big, embarrassing, embarrassing moment for me. There's so much liquid and I was so shocked. And ever since then, I developed this really neurotic habit. of peeing before I'm going to have an orgasm. It started when I was just going to have sex when I first started doing it, but the real problem is that I eventually started doing it when I would.
masturbate. When I would decide, oh, I'm going to have a fun little session, I would go and pee beforehand every single time without fail, no matter what. It hasn't really been a huge problem until right now, which is that I'm in the best relationship of my life and I'm having the best sex of my life. And part of that is that we have sex all the time and we have sex all over.
And the problem is that I have to go pee beforehand. It kind of ruins the fun, spontaneity, let me rip your pants down and let's fuck wherever we are thing because I always have to be like, oops, hee hee, let me just go pee first. So I really would love to stop doing it. And the times that I've tried to just not do it beforehand, I can't have an orgasm. I focus too much on it. I get really anxious about it. It's too in my head. I cannot relax enough.
to have an orgasm. And it's like often when I go pee before I have an orgasm, There's not even like, I don't even need to pee. It's not like my bladder's full. I mean, sometimes it is, but it's often not. It's just this like thing that I need to do to start the process. And I really want to stop being able to do it because I want to be a spontaneous sex girl.
Is there some kind of P expert out there that can help me? Who knows? Please, Dan, help me have spontaneous sex. The P expert you seek, someone you might want to work with or have a couple of sessions with, is what's called a pelvic floor specialist, Rachel Gelman. Then on the show a few times, pelvic floor specialist. You might want to, if you're in the Bay Area, make an appointment to go see her or...
Look around, find a pelvic floor specialist in your area if you want to achieve better muscular control of your pelvic floor area. I got to say, though. Taking off to pee quickly before you have sex sounds like not that big a deal when you consider... The hoops gay men have to jump through. The douching gay men have to do before they can have spontaneous or not spontaneous intercourse themselves running off to have a tinkle.
I think the sex still counts as spontaneous if you were motivated to go have that tinkle because you want to have sex in that moment. I love that your first boyfriend whose face you peed all over when he went down on you. didn't react in horror. He actually gave you positive reinforcement. He... Loved it. Squirting or peeing or both. The jury for that is going to be out forever. And right now more people have their money on pee or during the arousal process. Liquid being.
pulled into the bladder out of the bloodstream and that's what comes flying out. Maybe there's a little bit of urine in there. Your boyfriend's reaction was, I love this. This is awesome. But you had a negative reaction because you were in your parents' house. Childhood home, you soaked your sheets. It made a big mess and left you feeling very self-conscious. And the...
control for that. The thing that set you at ease, the thing it sounds like you've become psychologically dependent on is dashing off to empty your bladder when you know you're going to have sex or gonna treat yourself to an orgasm even when you're gonna masturbate and if that's what it takes to get you to relax that's not so bad most people enjoy sex more fully
when their bladders aren't fully, when their bladders are empty. It's uncomfortable to have penetrative sex with a full bladder. So, eh, although you're... motivations for why you go around and have a tinkle are tied to what could have been a more traumatic early sexual experience. And I say that in reference to your wonderful at that time boyfriend.
who reacted positively. Oh my God, imagine the zap it would have put on your head if he had freaked the fuck out at you about it. He didn't. The only one freaking out is you. My advice to you, in addition to maybe one or two appointments with a pelvic floor specialist to see if there isn't some sort of muscular training or physical training or treatment that might benefit you and help you relax.
is to embrace that you're going to need to tinkle, need to go empty your bladder before sexual activity, maybe even incorporate it into sexual activity, or to give yourself permission. If you're having spontaneous sex with your boyfriend, out in the woods or whatever to give yourself permission. If you pee, you pee. If it happens, it happens. And since you know it's a possibility that it might happen.
Well, then make sure that the last radius, the area that if you do squirt, if you do void your bladder during orgasmic contractions. Boiding your bladder of what might be pee, what might be squirt, what might be a mixture that you're not going to soak. sheets that you have to change, that you're not going to soak your clothes, your boyfriend's clothes if you're having spontaneous sex off in the woods.
Strip both of you from the waist down. Get your shoes out from under the blast radius. Have sex standing up against a tree where then if you do squirt, the only thing you're going to soak is the grass. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace.
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Head on over to squarespace.com slash savage for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code savage to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com slash savage. and use the offer code SAVAGE. Hey, Dan. I'm a 51-year-old cis gay man living in Mid-Atlantic City. I've been with my partner for 15 years.
Much of that, to be honest, has been pretty tumultuous. There's been a lot of infidelity on his part. He had an affair. We decided to stay together and open the relationship. A few years later, I broke up with him, started seeing someone else. We got back together. He had an emotional affair. And now he has unilaterally... open to the relationship to include going out with people that he's having sex with. He made plans without talking to me about it to go to some kind of flower market.
And this upset me because I felt like I deserved the opportunity to say whether or not I was comfortable with that. It felt like a betrayal, inconsiderate. He thinks that I'm just trying to control who he's friends with and that I'm making a problem where there isn't one and that I just can't be happy in the relationship. Am I the drama? Are you the drama?
you're part of this drama you keep showing up for the play for this drama that is your relationship with this man and so yeah i don't want to say you're responsible for the drama but the drama stops once you leave Finally, and for good, if somebody went to his partner and unilaterally imposed the terms of an open relationship, not just open, but open to dating other people, if somebody says you're going to be poly.
We're going to be poly whether you like it or not. You're going to have to be a pud if you don't want to be happily open. And that person was fine with those terms. Probably wouldn't be a lot of drama. You aren't fine. with your partner's terms the relationship has always been your word tumultuous he had affairs he had an affair you broke up you're back together with this person
with whom you have always had a tumultuous relationship, and you still have a tumultuous relationship. This person who's going to do whatever he wants, regardless of how it is you might feel about it. He wants it his way. It's a take it or leave it when somebody issues an ultimatum or makes a unilateral move. So go if being with him. makes you unhappy if this drama if you're done with this drama leave but if you choose to stay this is what you're signing up for if you choose to stay
And 15 years ain't nothing. And you guys got back together. I'm guessing for some reason, there must be some connection or affection there. There must be some redeeming qualities that your long-term partner has.
brought you back to him if those are worth putting up with this bullshit if that's a price of admission that you're willing to pay then pay it And part of an important part of the price of admission sort of ideology is you pay the price of admission and then you stop complaining about how much it costs to ride that ride.
If it's five bucks to get on the roller coaster, you're not willing to pay the five bucks to ride that roller coaster, don't buy a ticket. But if you pay the five bucks and you get on the roller coaster, enjoy the ride and stop complaining about how much the ticket cost. You knew how much the ticket cost. Really torturing the metaphor here. You know what the emotional cost of being with this man is. Are you willing to pay it? Are there compensations? Things he brings to the table.
Things about him that you enjoy, that you would miss, that you benefit from, that improve your life. If there are, and those things outweigh the like... bug of having to put up with him basically dating other men and seeing other men and doing whatever it is the fuck that he wants to then stay if not then go
In that sense, I don't want to say you're responsible for the drama, but if you're not enjoying the drama, stop showing up for the drama. End the relationship. Bring the curtain down. And it's over. But if you stay, I mean, you're allowed to have feelings about what he does and complain about what he does. But... You also need to take responsibility for the fact that your partner can only be a shitty partner to you while you're his partner, and you have the power to end the relationship.
and to make him not your partner. As I mentioned at the top of the show last week, I have the COVID again. So where am I? I am. in bed. I have been in bed all week. The good news, the silver lining here, the only silver lining here, I have a Helix mattress. So being in bed, not all bad.
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Helix is offering 20% off site-wide for our listeners. Go to helixsleep.com slash savage. Let them know the Lovecast sent you. helixsleep.com slash savage for 20% off. with helix better sleep starts now We're going to take a quick break from your calls to speak with Nico Carney, a New York City based standup comedian featured on Late Night with Seth Meyers. Nico was named a 2024 comedian. You should and will know by Vulture and New York Magazine.
And 15 of the 2025 Future of Funny by The Hollywood Reporter recently made his debut at the Comedy Cellar. Nico Carney, welcome to the Savage Lovecast. It's a thrill to have you. Thanks so much for having me. I'm stoked to be here. So you had a real journey. You grew up in a conservative family in a conservative part of the country in the South. You were... homecoming queen and now you live in Brooklyn and you're a stand-up dude comic. How did you get from that point A to this point B?
Yeah, I mean, I will say my folks are, you know, my folks in my family are not very conservative at all. They're transplants down south from upstate New York. And, you know. Grew up Catholic, so definitely had a little bit of that, just kind of generic, and also just the homophobia and transphobia of the early aughts that we all kind of lived through and continue to live through. But yeah, it's been a pretty drastic change from, you know.
how I grew up and who I grew up around to who I'm around now and what my life is like as a queer adult in the city, but it gives a lot. to talk about on stage and there's a lot left still to mine even beyond what i've already started talking about so i i use it as uh fodder for for jokes and material on stage Ends up being worth it in a way. It's funny. I was just with a small group of queer people and...
None of us knew each other. We all had one friend in common. And we opened by sharing our coming out stories. Somebody brought it up. They are our hero's journeys. Yes. And they are what all of us as queer people... LGBTQIA+, wherever we fall along the initialism, it is what we have in common, however different we might be as queer people. That being perceived to be someone that you know you're not and finally having to work up the courage to tell the truth. That's what we all have in common.
queer people. And you share that story in your comedy in a way that is so funny, so relatable, and I think really important right now, especially for trans people to be on national television sharing those. deeply humanized and coming out stories because trans people are, as I'm sure I don't need to tell you, under attack. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, it's something I think a lot about. And I actually was just writing a piece on this for my substack about...
you know talking about being trans on stage right now and just like the dissonance you can feel with like the state of the world and then also the live reaction you're getting to people loving to laugh about this stuff and laugh with me and just like the the relatability that you can feel in the room that people are
realizing there's more alike with us than different. And, you know, that I'm really just talking about a lot of the sort of human things about people about, you know, fucking up the way you talk about something because you're anxious or messing up how you're. coming across because, yeah, you're just being a human being who's going to make mistakes along this journey and just trying to be honest and find yourself in this world. And so I think that those things.
do translate to a lot of different types of people, a lot of different types of audiences. And I feel very grateful to get to have the ability to share that with people. And it's something that people enjoy. So it's been cool. I got to say one of the things I responded to when I... found you online when Instagram served you up to me. And then I did a deep dive and started following you and looking at your clips on YouTube and reading your stuff was, I saw some of me in you.
Like one of the things we've got, you know, the discourse has been about since the 2024 loss is that there's too much scolding. online. Too much people getting their knuckles wrapped for getting something wrong and not enough leading with humor. And humor brings people in. If you make somebody laugh, you can open their mind. And when I started writing Savage Love 35 years ago, so...
Before you were born. When I started writing Savage Love, there was a kind of strain of gay activism that was about scolding and about the questions you're not allowed to ask and how dare you and being indignant. And then there were people like me who were like, make the straight people laugh and then you can make them think. And if you make them laugh, like you're going to open up some cognitive dissonance in the minds of straight people who thought they didn't like.
Gay people because of whatever it was that they believed or taught, they were raised, the faith way they were raised in. But the minute you make somebody laugh, there's space for you and your people in their heart. And that's what. I feel like I did 35 years ago when I started making straight people laugh with my dick jokes and savage love. And it's what I see you doing right now for trans people.
And I think it's really important. And there are obviously times when people need to be scolded, need to have their knuckles wrapped. I've wrapped knuckles. I've scolded. But it's just as important to make people laugh. It humanizes the person who is making someone laugh. when you make someone laugh. Yeah, thank you for saying that. I think that's something I try to lead with in all my work. Obviously, as a stand-up, it's my job to make the audience laugh. And it is a tightrope walk to...
you know, introduce this subject matter and watch everybody get nervous that they're about to get, you know, their knuckles wrapped for trouble, right? Like, oh, he's about to make fun of us for messing up. And it's like, you know, I find those jokes are at this point a little bit. I don't know, it's just like well-trod territory at this point. A lot of people, that's kind of where they expect you to go. And so I just have no interest in doing that because A, I don't want the audience to...
you know, shut down and feel like, oh, we're being laughed at or we're the butt of the joke. You know, I'd rather get at them in an interesting way that kind of wraps around to that point. If it's going to get there, I don't want to just go straight there because it feels too obvious. And also that, you know.
like you're saying, I think it's so much more powerful to lead with like, a relatable type of humor that they've seen before but just like coming from a different perspective it's just observational personal material but it's coming at them from a perspective they haven't heard before which I think often lets people
They want to lean in because they're like, oh, this is something we hear a lot about, but we've never actually heard it from a trans person, let alone a trans man, because we're just not as, you know, publicized. So it's just like, it's always an interesting thing to watch these straight people go from being like, uh-oh.
to wait, what's he talking about? Oh my God, this is hilarious. Like I didn't even realize I would know a lot more about this or have a lot more insight to this than I thought I would just because he's a person and I'm a person. It's a form of activism. It really is. It's a kind of subtle, sneaky form of activism. I was an AIDS activist. I went to the die-ins. I carried the signs. I went to all the protests. That was important. That still is important. I think Pride this year is going to be...
a protest and very important. But making people laugh is also a kind of activism that people devalue because it's a pleasure. And there's sometimes this attitude in activist circles that activism has to be a grind or it's not activism.
Making people laugh can bring people around just as effectively, sometimes more effectively, than waving a placard in their face or screaming at them. What I really like about your comedy, you go right at it. You have a joke about being... having identified as a lesbian before your transition and that now one of your tells one of the things that
demonstrates that you are a straight guy is that you're still into lesbians and that you kind of hope lesbians will make an exception for you and date you. And I want to listen to that clip if that's okay. Yeah, let's do it.
My dating relationships changed quite a bit. I've noticed that a lot of trans people, when you transition, your dating life changes a lot. Like for me, I used to identify as a lesbian, so I mostly dated other lesbians. But then when I came out as trans, I was like, oh, I wonder if they don't want to date me anymore because I'm a man. And I know that I'm a man because my attitude towards lesbians is the same as every straight guy I've ever met. Because I'm like...
Yeah, they probably still want to date me though, right? I know you ladies aren't into men, but you've never been with a guy like me, okay? Give it a chance. I'm a very special boy. Wait till you see what I'm packing. You're gonna love it. It's a thinker. That joke about what you're packing, that is you going right at a thing that is a joke about genitalia. And one of the ways people are scolded when it comes to trans people is like, it's rude to ask, it's rude to think, how dare you?
concern yourself with anybody else's genitalia. And for me, what that vibes with is like AIDS activism or gay activism 30, 40 years ago, which is... A time when straight people were just obsessed with how gay people had sex. How do lesbians have sex? How do you do it? And the activist posture was if somebody says, what do you do in bed? You're supposed to get huffy and say.
We read, we sleep, we watch TV, sometimes we make love. What do you do in bed? And the problem was straight people were like really fucking curious and just telling them they weren't allowed to be curious didn't make that go away.
And my tack, and a lot of gay people didn't like this about Savage Love when it started, was like, let's answer the question until they're begging us to stop answering the question. Now, this isn't me saying that all trans people everywhere should be comfortable with questions about their genitals.
I think that is rude to burst in and ask somebody a question about their genitals. But there need to be, just like there needed to be some of the gay people out there 40 years ago, this is how lesbians have sex.
okay you can stop obsessing about it now there need to be some trans people out there who are like addressing it yeah talking about it in a way that like telegraphs comfort with their own bodies their own differences and even What I think is so funny about that particular joke is the advantage. Absolutely. Having what others who are male might not have. Right. And what the doors that might open for you. Yeah. I think it's something I, you know, I think a lot about when I'm.
doing material about that, you know, starts to get into that territory because I, you know, I have to be conscious of, you know, of course, my own comfortability, my safety, all those other good things. But like also, you know, to your point, like you need to hang a lantern on it at some point. Because I am aware that the audience will at some point be curious about that. So another way I get into it is like I talk about going to the gynecologist. I have a bit about that. So like that's a more.
you know kind of roundabout way into getting into like what is going on under the hood for me oh my god your first appearance on national television straight to the going to the gynecologist jokes yes because the reality is like You know, I think about it in ways of like, OK, the furthest audience member from me, when are they going to understand what I'm talking about? Right. So like my first joke is always talking, comparing myself.
Justin Bieber that's like the bit right and so a lot of people start to click in okay that's what we're dealing with then I do just a more irreverent bit about trans people and then I then I do something typically I'll get into like The gynecologist bit, if it's a really straight audience, because I know they're going to be like, OK, we know what like physically is happening here. We know what we're looking at. But also it's a bit that isn't.
explicitly like sexual in nature but it also does like get at those things that are like you do need to hang a lantern on if you want the audience to fully kind of get the entire picture and then they can lock in for like the rest of the material so
I definitely try to like figure out what is it that they are going to connect to. Like, what are the, what are the like kind of top of mind high line points about trans people that they understand? How do we get right at that and like get through it and then move forward so that they can just like.
be on board for the rest of it because like the worst part is when it's like okay half of you know what i'm talking about half of you are so confused and like that was something i had to learn like in the early days of my career was like what
material is going to land for the broadest possible audience. And I think that's one of the reasons I was able to do Late Night was because I figured that out and I found a way to get at it. And I think to your point, it's like going right at the thing and just finding the right way to talk about it is like... It's going to work because people want to hear about it. There's more Nico Carney on the Magnum. Become a Magnum sub now at savage.love slash subscribe.
This June, all through June, Magnum subs are half off. You can become a Magnum sub right now for just $25 at savage.love. This episode is brought to you by Liberator, the best thing to happen to sex since the bed came along. Whether you want to have sex on the mattress or on the floor or some other surface, Liberator wedges and pillows may getting with and getting on.
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It's even better. Liberator products, even better when they're on sale. What isn't better when it's on sale? Just go to liberator.com slash savage. or type savage into the search bar at liberator.com for VIP access to deals that are too good to announce on this podcast. Let them know the love cast sent you liberator.com slash savage. Hi Dan, I'm a 36 year old pansexual woman in a committed polyamorous relationship with a 32 year old bisexual man.
We've been dating for over a year and we've been established primary partners for the past six months. Our dynamic is incredible. We're kinky as fuck, emotionally supportive, deeply in love and full of genuine compersion. We've built a relationship that feels safe, adventurous and deeply connected. I've worked hard to heal my anxious attachment And while he has avoidant tendencies, he shows up consistently and with care. But there's one painful pattern that keeps coming up.
When things get emotionally difficult or were activated, he brings up that he's ultimately looking for a primary partner who's more intellectually aligned with him. He has a PhD in engineering and I have a bachelor's in fine arts. He says he misses more simulating conversations in a primary relationship, even though I personally feel fulfilled and very nourished by ours.
When I try to share that this feels like an avoidant deactivation tactic, he says I'm invalidating his experience. He insists that he loves me and never wants to lose our connection and that I'll always have a place in his life because he'll always be poly. But I'm starting to realize, does he actually honestly believe that I'll emotionally be okay eventually watching him fall in love with somebody else, prioritize her, essentially replace me in a way?
build the kind of life with her that I was really hoping to have with him. I've also tried to explain that no one partner can be everything and that's part of the beauty of being polyamorous. We get different needs met through different relationships. If deep intellectual simulation is something he craves, that's something another lover or close friend could fulfill. And honestly...
I told him even if he did find someone who challenges him more intellectually, she might not be as poly or kinky or as emotionally grounded in the ways that I am. That's the trade-off. That's the price of admission. If this kind of alignment is so important to him, why is he with me? Why continue to build something so beautiful and intimate while also saying that eventually...
he's going to find someone else to build a life with and move in with and settle down with or whatever. We don't want marriage or kids, but I'm just confused. So Dan... How can someone be so loving, consistent, and deeply connected to me, yet still say something so destabilizing and cold? Is this an avoidant deactivation tactic?
Am I being delusional for continuing to invest in this relationship when my primary partner keeps telling me he can't see a future? I'm just hurt and confused and I don't know what to do about this. Why is he with me? You ask yourself of this guy. And I sit here asking myself, why are you with him? This guy goes out of his way every once in a while. to remind you that you're dumb or not as smart as he is. Mr. PhD in engineering turns to the woman with the BFA.
Bachelor of Fine Arts and says, essentially, as a mating strategy, I'm smarter than you are. You are dumb. than I am and that presents a problem for us going forward in this relationship. See, to me, that screams low emotional. intelligence, piss poor emotional IQ on his part, even if he thought that, if he was as smart as he seems to think he is, he wouldn't say that the fuck out loud and...
expect you to ever suck his dick again. And yet you do. You keep sucking this man's dick. Why do you keep sucking this man's dick after he insults your intelligence? it's kind of a twofer he insults your intelligence at the same time that he indicts his own yeah look you're right you are right you guys are good together
You enjoy each other. You're a good match sexually. You're a good match. Emotionally, there must be lots of things that you two enjoy talking about. Engineering isn't on the list. He can talk about engineering with other people. That's why when two people get together, whether they're poly or not, we don't lock them in a room together for the rest of their lives. They're allowed to leave.
The room, they're allowed to have other connections, other relationships in your case, in both of your cases, other romantic, intimate relationships. And so... There's somebody he wants to talk about engineering with that he's fucking. He can go find somebody else to talk about engineering with that he's fucking. Odds are better he'll have an easier time finding somebody else to talk about engineer shit with.
who isn't one of his sex partners. If he's a heterosexual, not saying there aren't female engineers out there and there aren't women out there with PhDs in the hard sciences. There are. But there are fewer of them than there are men with those sorts of degrees. And so why not get this kind of companionship and intellectual stimulation?
from a dude or two and then come home and fuck the shit out of you his smart funny compassionate wiser than him in a lot of ways girlfriends look you're completely in the right and that he can't see it Ugh. Either means he's a lot dumber than he seems to think he is and dumber than you are, or this is bullshit. He doesn't see you. as a long-term potential nesting or primary partner for reasons, other reasons. And rather than share those other reasons with you, if you can even articulate them.
He latched onto this, that he has an advanced degree. He has a PhD and you don't. And therefore, which means he latched onto or is pointing to something that is. An insult rather than something that's a little white lie that people point to. You know, we're a great match in a lot of ways, but I don't see you as a potential.
nesting partner i don't see you as my primary partner and if you see me as your potential primary partner then maybe the two of us shouldn't keep getting together because i don't want you to be invested in me in a way that's never going to pay the fuck off for you. Cause I like you too much. I care about you too much. And if we don't want the same things, allowing this to go, blah, blah, blah. Lots of things he could have said besides you too stupid.
To be my girlfriend. To be my wife. To be my primary partner. Yeah. Maybe he's on the spectrum. Maybe he's on the spectrum. I'm sure. PhD in engineering. Few people are going to call up and say he could be on the spectrum, doesn't realize exactly what it is he's saying. Maybe he doesn't even realize exactly what it is he wants.
And he will in time, if you keep throwing your pussy at him, realize that it's you he wants. And he may come to see if he's half as smart as he seems to think he should be or is, or the PhD proves that he is, that... You're right that being with you, enjoying everything that you bring to the table, emotionally, intellectually, kink-wise... wanting the same things out of life, wanting the same kinds of relationships, openness, polyamory, that he can have all of that with you and...
Go hang out with a couple of engineers at a bar every once in a while and talk about bridges or whatever. He could have it all. Maybe he'll come to that in time if you let him. But I'm not sure if I were in your shoes, I'd give him too many more opportunities to insult my intelligence before I asked him to engineer his exit. All right, listener feedback. First up, a few comments listeners left in the comment thread.
about last week's show. Says Ginger Snap, to the individual with the partner dealing with depression and anxiety, I am a person who lives with depression too. And this may sound harsh, but it is not your responsibility to keep your partner's anxiety. or depression flare-ups at bay. I agree with Dan that non-monogamy may not work for your partner. It is possible, though, to have a healthy and stable life with depression, but you, caller, you cannot be the fix.
for your partner. Says TL about the same call as someone with anxiety and depression who is starting out on the ENM poly journey. I highly recommend the book, The Anxious Person's Guide to Non-Monogamy. by Lola Phoenix. They offer gentle coaching and practical thought challenges to help people navigate.
the process. Also wanted to ask, is this caller's partner in therapy? If not, they need to be. It is not fair to expect your partner to be your whole mental health support system. Got a second TL there. It is indeed. Not fair, says age gap experience for the woman that wants to live out her older man fantasy while she's still in her 20s. I was 28 with the same fantasy when I found a hot 52-year-old pilot that took me on a wild ride.
I highly recommend asking your current boyfriend for this exception. I completely understand where you are coming from. At 33, I no longer feel young enough to desire this fantasy. Love that I had the experience. But the hotness of the fantasy, now that age gap experience has reaped the ripe old age of 33, the hotness of the fantasy is...
Gone. Finally, wanted to highlight the tons of comments in the comment thread on last week's show about homeschooling and unschooling. Wanted to acknowledge all of your comments. Our guest last week, comedian Jeremy Alder, who was homeschooled growing up, is opposed to homeschooling, as am I. I am adamantly opposed to homeschooling. If you want to read the other side of the story, if you want to hear different perspectives.
Check out the comment on last week's show. And of course, a big thank you to everybody who disagreed with me and disagreed with Jeremy, who discussed it so insightfully and thoughtfully and politely in the comment threads. I read your comments. I hear you, but I still disagree with you. And now some of the voicemails Savage Love listeners left on our answering machine this week about last week's show.
This is in response to the woman raised in evangelical Christianity asking about her current FWB. I appreciated having Jeremy Alder on for a perspective on the topic, but I think a crucial voice would have been from a female. While fundamentalist Christianity certainly affects men, it's nowhere close to the purity pressure asserted on women. We're constantly told that our worth only lies in what we offer men. Our pleasure is irrelevant and that so much...
as an impure thought can taint our value. We're told that we're like chewed up pieces of gum or tape that loses its stick if we even kiss or hug inappropriately. These pressures, they don't apply to men in the same way. If they give in to sin, they're just giving in to their natural desires. But if women do it, we're tainted goods. We have to dress, move, speak, worship, think appropriately in service of our effect on men.
Now, if this is the type of fundamentalism she was raised in, it can take years, sometimes even decades, to deconstruct from this. I'm 40 next year. I've been removed from Christianity for over 15 years, and I'm still discovering new thought processes.
that i have to deconstruct from i urge the listener not to dive into anything too quickly take the time to discover herself outside of romantic relationships Explore her sexuality without restraints, and please, please, please don't deprive yourself of the freedom of a relationship with yourself and your needs.
Hey, Dan, I just listened to the recent episode about the woman who was, you know, having her little meltdowns during her three ways with her husband. And this is exactly why people hate unicorn hunters. If these people aren't ready to have... threesome then they need to stop you know ensnaring other people in their drama hello i'm calling about this sub who is supposed to peg her dom what if he tied you like what if you were
tied in a place and a position where literally all you could do is thrust, even gag you. Because if you couldn't talk and you couldn't use your hands and all you could do is what he was telling you to do and how to do it. Maybe you'd be less likely to slip into dom space.
And we're going to leave it there. Got a question for me? Go to savage.love slash askdan to record and upload your question directly onto our website. Or make a voice memo on your very own phone and email us your question or your comment to q at savage.love. Call us on our landline, 206-302-2064, and leave us a message on our answering machine. New merch, the tech-savvy at-risk youth. Asked me last month what I wanted to see on a Pride t-shirt in 2025, and I said,
Fuck this shit. Fuck defunding HIV research. Fuck banning trans people from the military. Fuck pretending Pride Month doesn't exist. Fuck disappearing Venezuelan makeup artists into El Salvadorian gulags. Fuck Ice, join me in saying fuck this shit with your whole chest by getting a fuck this shit t-shirt. now at savage.com slash shop. I will be wearing mine at the No Kings protest in Seattle on June 14th. Hope to see my fellow Seattleites.
There are magnum subs, Savage Love Live, June 12th, noon Pacific. Check your email for the link, Thursday morning, June 12th. Follow me at BlueSky, at Dan Savage. Follow me on Instagram and threads, at Dan Savage. Follow Nico Carney on Instagram and threads. at Nico Carney and check out his newsletter on Substack, nicocartney.substack.com.
The Savage Lovecast is produced every week by Nancy Hartunian and me and Nancy and the tech savvy at risk youth. We will all be back at you next week with our installment of the Savage Lovecast. Thank you for time.