Unlocking Explosive Growth by Focusing on Recruiting with Naaman Taylor

As Part of the leadership team for the roofing and solar reform Alliance , I'm here to bring you the best from the industry . In each episode , I sit down with top industry leaders to dive into their strategies and valuable lessons to help you find success in roofing . Hey , welcome to another episode of the Roofing Success Podcast .

Today we have one of Dallas's finest Naaman Taylor from Miller Storm . What's up , brother ? How are you .

I've had Jay on before and we've had some great conversations and now , as the team is growing , I think it's , I think you guys are doing some cool things . So how did you , how'd you end up at Miller Storm ? How'd you end up in roofing ?

Me and my wife went out on a blind date with them , basically , and we just basically became best friends . All four of us had such a good time . We just started hanging out and over the course of a year we just spent a lot of time , became family . Our kids are around the same age , our youngest daughters and we spent a lot of time together .

And then he kind of kept you know , you should get into roofing . And I'm like nah , dude , I'm a wholesaler , I like wholesaling real estate . He asked me again and I'm like I don't know , dude , what does it look like ? Like you know , just show me what it looks like . And then he shared some of the game with me and I was like I think I'm interested .

I had a hard money lending company , like I've done I still do private money lending at times , like so I really come from that and , man , like you don't think of the trades when you're in that right . Like you don't think of the trades as the money market , as money-making . You know ventures .

You're like , oh , the real estate is the money-making venture , the trades are what you know . We're using the you know different trades to help rehab the properties , things like that . But my goodness , when you get down to the numbers , it's like huh , there's a , there's some scale to this . That I think is more challenging on the real estate side .

So now you came from real estate . What did you first do ? What was your first role when you came over to Miller Storm ?

I was like why , cause we come from just phone sales , virtual phone sales we used to lock up properties all over the state of Texas . That's how we ran our business and I thought it was crazy that they were outside knocking on doors . And he thought it was crazy that was had a call center , a bunch of dudes in a room banging phones , and we used to .

We used to come from two completely different worlds , yeah . And so I saw immediate value add because most roofing guys have no idea about marketing at all because it's just door knocking , and so they brought me in to do marketing , which is a massive umbrella in the roofing space in general .

What I specifically came to do was build a call center and generate leads over the phone . So I came in first 30 days , built out a . We built it out stateside first . Jay didn't want to just go virtual model and bring them in from Egypt that's the way I like to do it um , or overseas in general . He's like , no , I need them stateside .

I'm like , trust me , you don't want them stateside . It's like they're gonna be stateside . So I'm like , all right , it's your company dude . He just kind of brought me in as a consultant at the time . Yeah , I was like we'll do a stateside and so we did , and it was successful .

And then I added the layer of my overseas talent and we quickly compared the two and we're like the overseas talent is better and more cost affordable and they're doing just as good as the other guys .

And we cranked out probably , you know , 500 appointments in three months or something like that , with one of the months doing like close to 300 when a storm hit . So we have like massive success from it .

I know those guys are out there and they're they're really really good , but I can , I can , I know enough to be dangerous , and so I started running my KPIs , doing my numbers , Cause that's really what you know where I come from , that's the wholesale industry , and I quickly realized like our conversion rate wasn't great and because I don't know anything about

roofing , so I don't know I don't even know really what business I was in at the time I'm thinking like if I get these guys leads , I'll double their business .

When I came in , they had about eight or nine sales guys outside sales guys , which some of them were murderers . One guy's going to do over 2 million , you know , but he don't even want my leads . He's like ah , I want to just door knock , right . And so it was . It was a weird thing , cause I just figured .

I was like I'm going to take all you guys off the streets , you're just going to be running leads , is what I thought . But I don't know anything about roofing . So we things and it's too many leads for the team of eight people or nine people , I forget exactly the exact number and we realized the followup wasn't there .

The the some of the guys were , you know , not million dollar producers . So we were giving them leads and they're not converting . And I realized you don't even need leads in roofing . I'm like see this , you did , you know , however , many millions last year with no leads . This is helping some , but we're not crushing it the way .

I thought we're going to double the business in , like two months , you know . And so I realized the actual constraint of the business is the sales reps . And so I looked at the recruiting department and wasn't in love with it and so I said , hey , let's just . I've basically built this marketing channel up . It's running itself .

Let me just move over here to recruiting , and recruiting is still marketing in my opinion , like you still have to track KPIs , outbound , inbound , roas , on Indeed , like cost per lead . All that stuff still applies .

So I just took that over because it kind of fell under the same umbrella , which for me , my position is chief revenue officer , which is sales and marketing combined . So I own sales , marketing , recruiting . So I just packaged all that up and that's what I do in the business . So I took over the recruiting side of things and that's the mix we're in now .

I've been doing it for about 45 days , basically from nothing to where we are today .

I'm like cool , you're not in real estate , you're in sales and marketing , right . Like that's the business that you're actually in .

And so I thought when I came into roofing that I was still in sales and marketing , because that's what it looked like on the5 , let's just say that of being in roofing , and most of that was spent just building call center , generating leads .

And so I realized , 45 days into my venture , I'm not in sales and marketing anymore , I'm in the recruiting business , and I firmly believe that Anybody tells me different . I'm like you're just an idiot , you don't know what business you're in either . And so first is understanding what business that you're actually in .

And so once I realized that , I paused X on everything else and was like let's build recruiting out . And so I started out by just doing the job myself , right , I do what's called a dialogue day in the life of .

So I was like , if I was just a regular old recruiter with no resources , let me just try this out for two weeks , cause one thing I didn't want to do is just hire people and hope that they were going to do it for me . I'm not hiring a recruiter with 10 years of experience . This guy's probably going to suck . We're going to overpay him .

Like I'm not doing that Right , cause we put out an ad for one day Once I once I was like hey , we're in recruiting . They put out an ad for one day . I slept on it . I said take the ad down . I got it and so we just X'd that .

So I did a two-week dialogue of just calling people , setting appointments , doing in-person interviews just to see what is right , what is wrong . Like how is this scalable ? So I can train somebody that once I put a process in place and they attack the process , I can understand what they're going through .

So I did the dialogue for two weeks and then I hired somebody I brought with me from my wholesale business . She was my dispo girl . She's just relentless , is the best way to explain to her . So Miller had about 1,300 leads is what I call them in Indeed and I'm like let's attack this list and I brought one of my other overseas talent people .

We caught all those people in 10 days and , because we attacked the process right , like yeah , so I brought them over . They call everybody . You know she does 80 interviews in a week to get you know 12 qualified people to come sit down . We invite 12 people to come . Four show up . Right , we hire two and I'm like wow .

Not the best conversion rate , but yeah that's just iteration one , right , exactly , that's just iteration one .

So this is like the time to value on , like creating a real system and model that works . It just takes time and so , like , most roofers are not that patient , uh , you know .

So patience is what I have , is a virtue of mine like I'm very patient , I can wait to see the iterations , I can wait to see the improvements , right , like I'm cool with that , um , and so you know , that's the value that I bring to to these of companies is like , yeah , I had the sales and marketing hat . Now , you know , I'm good at process improvement .

At this point , you know , and I'm kind of patient , so we can , we'll get this figured out , right , and so now we're on iteration two . At this point , this is our second hiring cycle two . At this point , this is our second hiring cycle , um , you know , we had we're going to have another one next week We'll have 11 people scheduled to show .

We'll see how many actually show , how many we actually hire and we switched up a couple of things where we , you know , we do a group interview , um , et cetera , right , so we just changed up a couple of different things , um , that just give us a little bit of a competitive edge but we'll just change up a couple of different things that just give us a

little bit of a competitive edge .

Right , we , always a lot of times we just go , we we we hire someone and hope for the best , right , like we don't understand what they do or what success looks like in that role . We don't , and if you don't understand what success looks like , you can't hire the right person , or or you're just rolling the dice .

At that point You're you know , and load day in the life of .

I used to do that when I was doing , when I started doing rehabs back in , back in like 2008 , 2009 , when , after the meltdown , every every fix and flip that I did , or every rehab that I did , I did one trade on every , every project , right , and so one project I'm doing drywall , another project I'm doing trim carpentry .

Another project I'm doing plumbing , another project I'm doing electrical , and . And the reason that I did that wasn't because I wanted to be an electrician or because I wanted to be a drywall or what you know any of that . I did it because I wanted to understand the role and what I'm paying for when someone gives me a bid .

I wanted to understand that bid a lot more . I wanted to really feel what went into that , right ? So if you're not a salesperson , if you've never knocked doors , you're trying to build a door-to-door've never , you don't have the feeling of it , right , you don't know what it feels like , and so so , to put on that , you , you sit in that seat .

You is what I'm understanding , right ? So you said , man , a recruiter is what we need in this business .

So I'm going to create a recruiter seat , I'm going to sit in it , I'm going to execute on it , and I'm going to create a recruiter seat , I'm going to sit in it , I'm going to execute on it and I'm going to , I'm going to , I'm going to iterate on what I learned from this . Is that how kind of that ? That's how I heard you Is .

That is that kind of the process that you went through .

I've door knocked for a week with these guys . I've gone to the installs . I haven't made my way through the whole company yet , um , cause I'm just going to become the COO here , right , and it's like . But I need to figure all this stuff out first before I move into the seat , um , and at least be dangerous enough to know no one can bullshit me , right ?

And enough to know what everybody's going through so I can help them make decisions , see where our gaps are , um , in the business , so that we can , you know , make this thing run smooth and elevate everybody .

But the first thing I want to go back into like , when you're sitting in this seat , right , when you're doing the day in the life of , when you're creating this position , you're not creating the position to sit in it forever , right ? So this is business . Hat on , this is working on your business , not in your business .

For those listening , like , this is the way to approach this . Then , one of the things that you said , you're all about KPIs and measurements . So when you create a position like this , you know what ? What is your process of creating KPIs ?

Because in the beginning , a lot of times , when you don't know the role , you don't know exactly what the measurements should . Be right . But what's your process for creating the KPIs for that role and then iterating ?

One is our overseas talent , who's literally the first touch , just to make sure this is the right phone number , this person is real , that they're willing , that they are looking actively for a job and that we can put them on a calendar . So it's very low qualifying the person just to get them on the calendar . For our actual recruiter Right now .

He's been doing that for 29 days now . He started on the first Right . So I'm about to get his 30 days of KPIs . Remember , I told you they called twelve hundred eighty eight people in 10 days .

So I didn't even know what to pay him because he he's very outgoing , ambitious , like he wants to make a lot of money , you know , and I'm like , hey , I don't know how many calls you can actually make . Give me 30 days at this rate , which is fair , right , it's entry level . And then let me set you goals for bonuses and et cetera , et cetera .

So we're going to have that conversation either tomorrow or beginning of next week on like what his goals are for the month . On like his calls Cause he murdered um , that list , right , and so , like if I would've been like , hey , we'll give you , you know , five bucks for every person you put on the calendar . He's booking 12 people a day .

Five bucks for every person you put on the calendar he's booking 12 people a day , right , like this is not realistic , you know to . To pay that much Cause he's an overseas rep , right , like it's per hour over there is is really important . I'm like he would be the richest man in the city if I did it that way , you know .

So I'm like we got to understand region based pay , right , and make sure we set the proper expectations and KPIs for you . So I'll know his numbers basically tomorrow , and we'll set some guidelines there . But for our recruiter itself , we're looking for her to do 40 interviews , because we think we'll be able to get one out of four to set a time .

What we've run into , though , is people can't wait for our hiring cycle . They don't want to wait two weeks to come in and do the group interview to then get hired . They want to start the sales position . They want to start tomorrow , and , like if it started . they didn't want to start Monday and I'm like this is kind of chaotic .

It's hard to create a system and an operating model around that . So that's some of the challenges that we've had from that . But to answer your question for KPIs it's how many booked appointments do you have ? How many of those people are qualified ? Did you qualify ? How many of them do you book to show up ? How many show up and how many do we hire ?

So this is what you're doing .

I love the way that you're in and this is where I think we connected is is on marketing , and sales is not just to prospective , and you know I hit on those . The key , my theory , is the key four areas , right , and one of them is to current employees and future employees .

And , over and over again , you can use the sales team , sales tactics , the marketing tactics on the recruiting side and use similar KPIs . But then you'll learn . So now , as you're going through this , you went through the first iteration . You got down to the 12 interviews hired two . What learnings did you have from that ?

You got down to the 12 interviews hired two . What learnings did you have from that ? That you carried into the second phase ?

We're trying to change that up to where we do small group interviews Because people just don't show up and now that 30 minutes you've got to find something else to do , but you can't do any deep work for 30 minutes because now you have another interview .

We're going to try and schedule more group interviews so that if people don't show up , it doesn't just kill your calendar . That's one of the things that we're doing that we learned , because it's just a time suck to set up and block .

Two people don't show up in a row but you can't do any real deep work for an hour because you don't know if they're like you wait five minutes , you call and you text them . Now you got 20 minutes left to your next one , and so what do you do for those 20 minutes ?

You make the best use of your time , but you don't want to put people in a position to have to figure that out . That's probably one of the biggest lessons that we learned .

Second one is this is this kind of blew up this weekend over the weekend was we did a call I forget the guy's name that came on RSRA , but we lowered the reading level on our sales letter for recruiting right , the job posting , and we changed up the title , the hook . We did all that Right at the third grade level .

We labeled it Sales Ninja and we made it readable .

We had a hook in the beginning , you know , we just dumbed it down and made it really simple to read and really fun and edgy is the word that she likes to use for it , edgy and so we ended up getting a ton of people to apply and it was a lot of fun because our now the guy that's overseas calling , they're all they're calling .

I want to be a sales ninja , I want to , you know , and it really worked . It worked really well , and so we then we ran , we were just we just started running another one yesterday Because we just did this this week or on Friday last week and now soar .

But we're about to hit tomorrow , one week of this job posting , and we changed another one , clear , looking for our sales manager . We changed it to chief hustle officer , right , and so we're gonna see like if the chief hustle officer For the sales manager like attracts the person we're looking for .

Because we're not looking for a branch manager or a regional manager or , like you know , we're not . We're looking for a guy that'll come out here and knock with other guys and , like you know , and lead them and train them . So , chief hustle officer , I think it fits the level of person we're looking for . So we're going to see if that works or not .

I know we've had a handful of applications and we're trying two different things . One is a per day spend so like anywhere from 30 to a hundred dollars per day on various ads , and then also just 300 bucks in a day to just try to grab as many people as possible in one day .

All right , so we're going to A , b , split , test those and see which one works better for future practices , to see how we want to , you know , work our recruiting pool as well . Is it just every day spend , you know , a hundred bucks , or just spend 500 bucks in one day and grab everybody we can and then work that list ?

So we haven't figured that out yet , but those are some common practices that we have going .

I know some other really good roofing contractors that have had on the show down in the DFW . You know that have hired some big door knocking teams Blue Hammer and and these guys , right , like , they're excellent at building these sales teams and they do it through a recruiting process and it's there . You have to understand that aspect of it .

So let's talk about it . Is your main focus on ? Your main focus is on Indeed . It sounds like .

And Instagram , because we have a strong social media brand and personal brand on Instagram . So I think running Instagram ads is going to be my probably first of the month . Next month We'll set aside a budget for Instagram ads . I already shot the creatives and we'll just run some ads behind on Instagram to get people through the door .

Again , we'll split test , indeed , versus Instagram and cause I don't want to have a bunch of different layers of marketing to be honest for recruiting . I want to figure out one that works and just go harder . Um , I don't want to have you know I'll be doing the zip recruiter Facebook , instagram .

I'm like I'm maybe cool with two at the most , but mainly one way of doing it and then just continue to iterate that one way and make it the best way possible .

Then I'll look at my ads that I put into Instagram and say which ads perform the best and I'll just create more ads like that and I'll just recreate those ads with a different shirt and different background , like say the same things .

You know that's , that's like you know continuous improvement , which is a core value for us , but take it to the next level in marketing . So that's the game there . We're going to start that one next , but mainly Indeed right now .

I thought like I just thought this stuff was just ridiculous because it never . You know what are like the interview questions what did you , what's your weaknesses and all that . I was just like man , this is just so , so . So it was I .

I couldn't do it , I couldn't participate , so I went and started my own businesses , right Like , and so right , and but then , as I've grown businesses to larger organizations like , wow , there's actually something to this , there is an art form to interviewing .

There's an art form , there are questions that there are real , specific questions that get asked and there's reasons behind them . Oh , now I get the reasoning , Now I get the . And so what is the ? You have a hiring funnel , right . What is the ? You have a hiring funnel , right .

You're collecting leads , essentially with your , with people that are reaching out or filling out the application , submitting their resume . Then you have . Then you're filtering those leads with an initial phone call . What are ? And then ?

So let's walk through the interview steps , that hiring funnel , getting down to the people sitting in the office and choosing the right people to hire . So let's start with okay , they submitted their , their resume to you , what's the next interview step and what happens in that step , and then go through the , the additional steps that you have .

We put in better questions , the questions that I got the most out of , because I was like basically dissecting myself during this interview process of what questions to ask . So I gave her a whole list of things and they also take a personality test before I ever see them , cause I'm the final say on if we're going to hire or fire somebody .

If they get past Abby and all those questions , now I just need to see if they've got what it takes to be outside sales , and for me that's . I'm a . I'm big on training through repetition , so word track , and when I say this , you say that and do it exactly how I said it and then put your own spin on it , right .

So really my main thing is I just check the basics , make sure they can make it 90 days without getting paid , make sure that you know they're right Culture fit for our company , and then I do one video exercise where I'll tell them . I want you to repeat after me and say it , and I have one of the other guys record them , right ?

So they have the phone up , so it's already uncomfortable , right . So I just make them uncomfortable as I can during these interviews and I'll say I state your name , want to work at Miller storm . So you know my name , you know my name is name , and I want to work at Miller storm . And I'll say say it with some enthusiasm .

And now this tells me like hey , enthusiasm , what does that mean to them ? Do they understand what I'm asking ? And now let me get some character right , so that my name is Naaman , I want to work at Miller Storm , right , like some sort of cheesy commercial or something , right ? And then I say now , yell it and say it with enthusiasm .

And so this tells me can you get ? Can you yell something like this on video camera with people around with enthusiasts ? Can you get uncomfortable , cause it's going to get uncomfortable at this door . I need you to get super . My name is Naaman and I want to work at Miller store . Right , and it tells me everything .

I need to know if they can go knock the door , because if one , they can't just say that If they start saying , hey , my name is Naaman , I want to work hard , I can't wait to get out there . It's not what I told you to say . You can't follow instructions .

I need you to be coachable and just do exactly what I tell you to do if you want to be successful here . So if they don't mess that up , that's know . They're coachable , it's a core value fit .

They can step outside of their , their comfort zone with a camera in their face and yell at me all right , like that tells me a lot , and if they can't yell I literally told the dude just get up and leave . One time he was like I said , yell it with enthusiasm .

He basically whispered to me and I said I said hey , just based on this feedback I know you're not going to be a good fit here . I appreciate you coming out , but I no longer need you here at the interview or the rest of the exercise . You can go . He was so confused and he cried and I was like I'd be doing you a disservice to hire you .

All right , so that's the , the , the , the push through . We call you as soon as you apply , qualify , you get you on the uh , the calendar for our recruiter . She takes you through all the real serious questions and then you come in person with me as a group and go through the group interview and get uncomfortable , yell at me and then maybe I'll hire you .

I need to knock out this group interview with y'all in an hour or less , because this costs the company a thousand bucks . So let's get to it , right . So I need everybody in the room , right , I'm , you know , we get to it .

We make them all do the exercise , we ask a couple questions and then from there we either onboard and put them through orientation , um , or tell them to go home and keep them on the short list .

What are you guys focused on in that , or is there a balance there for you ?

I can get 10 mermen that can all do two million dollars and that's how you build a 20 million dollar company . Or what jay said you can get a hundred dead , get 100 zombies that just hit the wall and eventually you climb over all the dead bodies and reach the top , and so that's it . You can get the new people that you train .

Those guys will be more loyal to you and you'll be able to train them , and I think you'll be able to get good enterprise value as well by having a lot of people . I've seen that model and then I've also seen the model of just mermadins right .

So we have a mix , because we have about a 10 mermadins you know I'm lying we probably have about three mermadins and then like seven guys that are all right and then a bunch of yeah . Yeah , that's probably where we are , because we got one guy's gonna do over two million . Then we got a couple million dollar producers , and then we got a bunch of yeah .

Yeah , that's probably where we are , cause we got one guy who's going to do over 2 million , then we got a couple million dollar producers , and then we got a bunch of half a million dollar producers and then a bunch of people that just got in the game , just gotten , yeah , just got in , yeah , yeah , it's a .

So you know it's hire , recruit , train , hire , you know , or whatever , recruit , hire , train right , like you're in this process and then you're up leveling your people through .

You know all the time You've really gone from you know kind of not knowing the roofing industry right To now leading a team driving growth , what have been some of the most like some of the biggest lessons you've learned along the way so far ?

Once I got all the numbers and I got enough data and I started looking at them . Like our most successful deals that did like the less kick rate is the ones that we knocked All right . So that's what it is . The leads don't suck , you do Right .

I had to tell that to my team too , because even though we do have leads like you just don't work them hard enough . Like is the main thing was a big lesson , Cause I for a while there . I was like man that leads suck . I'm like something's . But then I read quickly we started doing some quality assurance and I'm like , no , no , not my fault .

Like you guys are just struggling , you know , to close , you know that's what a classic . All right , um , that was another big one . You want to jump in on that ?

And a telemarketing lead is different than a door knock , it's different than a Facebook lead , it's different than there's there's nuance to it and you have to be able to sell sell based upon that . Right . A home advisor lead .

I know companies that make millions of dollars a year from home advisor leads and I know hundreds or even thousands of contractors that feel probably thousands of them that are like that's a scam , like well , you didn't have a process to work it properly , right , like you didn't , and just like your telemarketing leads .

I I've told many , many , many roofing companies this over the years when I talked to them about doing marketing if you are a door toto-door sales organization and now you want to become a marketing organization and generate leads for your team , you're going to have to make some changes for them , because your sales team is used to hunting and working leads is more

of a farming aspect , right , and working leads is more of a farming aspect , right , like you have to treat that lead like it's the last lead you'll ever get when in door knocking you move on to the next door and so there's a different mentality and it's very , very challenging in regards to that .

So you have to know , man , my team is good at door-to-door or these people on my team are good at door-to-door . These people are really good at working leads .

So there's understanding that having an understanding of your business right , understand who you guys are as a company , understand your culture , you know , as you learned , you , you , you throw a bunch of telemarketing leads to a bunch of door knockers . It doesn't work , but those leads weren't bad . That was two , three , what'd you say ?

300 , 500 leads that are like like these are good leads , but you need , they need to be worked in a very specific way . They need to be followed up with warmed up . They need to have like the conversation is different than the conversation at the slight differences in the sales pitch .

And after we kind of realized what happened , he was like yeah , you know , I wasn't my place to tell you this in the beginning , you know cause I was here to just do the job . But he was like you did it kind of backwards .

He was like you got all these leads , you should have did this and I'm like , he's like , but I came here to do a job you know , and I was like . I was like next time , dude , just tell me , so we don't have to waste three months of our time , that's right , and we can just get to this faster , right , so it's .

It's funny , you know , to hear it from people with experience that have seen it Right , cause he came from a call center different roofing company too , that's right . And so it's like okay , so you've seen this , you've done this .

You know we didn't know the sales team at the time , right , and so now , now we know what's up , we know how to better cater to them . I treat the sales guys as my customers . I said , now I know how to better serve my customer , which is my sales team . All right , so we're getting there , but it's been so far .

Some other big lessons that I've learned , you know , is to really dive into the customer experience more . I haven't quite gotten to do that yet .

Just yet , just the last two weeks , I've been showing up to the installs , talking to the crews , understanding like the entire process fully , so that I can , you know , then create that customer journey , customer experience , and kind of fill some gaps .

And so you're building the teams to work in the business recruiting team , sales team , all the you're . You're building that to those . Those people are working in the business . Recruiting team , sales team , all the you're . You're building that to those . Those people are working in the business .

Your production team , your crews , your like your high you know , whatever crews you're using , like all of these people are working in the business . You're working on the business . You get to go . All right , I'm going to go to job sites this week . I'm going to look at how we present ourselves on the job site .

If I were a homeowner driving by this job site , would I feel like this is a company that I want to hire , if you get the opportunity as an owner or a high-level management team ? Of course , in corporate America you'd call it C-suite or director level , like .

Like you should be looking at at the business from a different perspective than from being , than than just the problems that you're going to have within it on a day-to-day basis .

I'll knock some doors with them , build some team camaraderie , let them know , like you know , even as an executive , like we can still get our hands dirty , but when the , when the the average roofer guy gets to that spot , they were , they don't know what to do , right , and it's like start working on your business and what does that mean ?

Do that customer journey , that customer experience that pour back and copy paste yourself and your management team like all that stuff they did because they've been in it so much , trying to survive that's right and just trying to get to this point . They get to that point and they're like what the fuck do I do now ?

Yeah , and I'm like there's a ton of stuff to do , homie .

Quadrant . Man , you start off as an employee , you build some skills . Then you take those skills , you can move that and become self-employed right , but that's where business owners start a lot of times is being self-employed . And so now you're self-employed , you're working in the business , you are the business , there is no other , you are the business .

If you don't show up today , the business , there is no business . Then you reach a point where you have to make that transition to being a business owner . And that's where I , that's where , man , that that's a , it's a tough , it's a , it's a challenging time . You will feel some uncomfortable growth in that period of your life .

I just had a podcast episode with my friend Lynn asking a couple episodes back on on EOS , on on implementing EOS in your business . So I'm a big , big fan of that .

Yes , but I'm not a visionary for this company either . Okay , that's right . So I haven't had too many different executives that I've worked with . So , based on this book , I'm not a visionary or an integrator , right ? Yes , what the hell is my role ? Because we came up with a term called an accelerator .

We made it up , though , on our own , because whenever I touch , I multiply , right , but I'm not an integrator . So , in a business maybe you've seen a business where there is a visionary and the COO is still like me , right , an accelerator , yes , I can hire a ops manager to be my integrator is what I've come up with . But what have you seen ?

What kind of experience with like what would you say ? Yeah , so .

I won't find a way around the wall . I'm going to go , we're going and we're going to break everything on the way . An integrator is there to say no , we , yes , we want to get there , but we have to make a left here , a right , four blocks down , and then we'll go around , we'll go around .

This is the process that we're going to take to get to the vision and to organize the vision right . So the to organize the vision into this is what we can execute on first , with the , with the resources that we have . This is what we can execute on second , this is what we can execute on third .

So I do see that in what you're doing right , but what I do hear is that you're not the process guy in terms of developing maybe SOPs and all that , but you're hiring the director level for that , and that's what a COO does too . So I think that you're in the right path .

Another thing that I think about with EOS and I learned this at my time at JobNimbus is that EOS can evolve .

Eos is a framework and it's a baseline , but like a job Nimbus , we ran JNAZ , which was the job Nimbus operating system , which was it started with EOS , but then iterate there were iterations on that to fit the culture Miller storm way , right , like the Miller storm way , exactly .

And an accelerator may be a good framework to to , to , to , to see that , to see that through . But to me then it goes to where do you ? What seat do you end up in ? Is the accelerator a seat forever ?

Right , I think right , because right now what you're doing is you're coming in and you're building out certain frameworks and positions and departments , divisions , but once they're built out , where does the accelerator role fit ? Right Is then do you sit in a COO role and operate this and manage those directors of those departments ?

Or a lot of times I've heard this if you want a good COO , hire the CO . Or a good CEO for your company , hire the COO of a good competitor , because a COO gets trained to become a CEO in a certain way , because they've built the , they've built all of that , so that then the CEO has the vision . A good a CEO that was the COO has the .

They've gotten their hands dirty . Yeah , like kind of what you've done in the I think what I'm now that you're kind of painting this out .

Or , chief revenue officer Jay's our CEO becomes our founder . I'm going to CEO , right , like something like that .

So when we're expanding on our vision of what we want to be in our company , as the company grows , you may not as the founder of the company , you may not end up in the CEO role . I just interviewed Jacob Van Horn on a recent podcast and he has moved into the CEO role .

The founder , he's the visionary still , he's still out there evangelizing the company and being who he is , but he's not the CEO . Because we have to understand what a CEO does . A lot of times we like the title CEO but we don't do the job description of a CEO .

And that's where , as an organization grows , grows , people have to make sure the founder does not have to sit in the ceo seat .

It just carries over from insert product and service . Here is the way I look at it . Right , and there's different aspects of it . Some are more B2B oriented businesses , some are more B2C oriented businesses , but it's all business and the lessons that we learn across each of them .

The amount of things that I took from interviewing roofing contractors and implemented into our marketing company . It was amazing . Like I'm interviewing , I'm like man . That's a great . I can spin that into this in our company . Right , I could create a better customer experience by doing this . I could . You know it's very impactful .

So , before we go like , how do you balance the need for growth but maintaining the quality in your team ? How are you looking at it ?

So you don't actually want to grow , you want to scale Right , and so we're scaling the company , not growing it . We're not just like get people to get people like that that's how you make a mess , so we not growing it . We're not just like just get people to get people that's how you make a mess . We're not actually growing , we're scaling .

One is core value fits to make sure you can scale correctly .

Then I would say building the management and leadership team correctly , because there's a ton of people that you can add to your workforce , but building your leadership and management team and everyone having clear roles and responsibilities , you know , diving into the org chart weekly to make sure everybody's in the right seats .

I think it's something that you know , we that can help you actually scale correctly and not just grow like cancer .

The culture gets out of hand .

I'm not , I'm not perfect , I don't have it all figured out Right , and so he kind of stepped in there . That was perfect . A CEO , your company , your culture , like help me out , understand . You know like where I'm doing some stuff wrong too , because I started trying to go let me hire 50 people .

But when you're , when your focus is here , you have to make sure that your vision is still wide into what , what impact that focus has . If you're focusing on the customer experience and the customer journey , there are things that get affected . So when you're focusing on your marketing , there are things in production that get affected .

The communication with the customer gets affected . There's so many dots to connect a lot of times that it becomes challenging . There are things in production that get affected . The communication with the customer gets affected . There's so many dots to connect a lot of times that it becomes challenging . Man , it really does

. But you talked about culture . So what have you learned about culture and how to incorporate or determine if they are a cultural fit in the recruiting process ?

So some guys are showing up in like ripped jeans and tennis shoes and , like you know , just looking at T-shirts and I'm like , hey , slacks , polo , you think you have to tell people this , but you do right . Um , put , you know , wear a good shirt , come for looking presentable .

So we went back to the drawing board and just made sure that our recruiter explained that thoroughly before they showed up . So this last time we had people showing up with the polos , you know , like they looked like they were supposed to look like a follow instructions .

So that was the first part , like coming in , can you just follow instructions and wear a black polo to the interview ? If you don't have a black polo , are you willing to buy one to come get this job ? You know that's the first people show up without the black polo . I'm like just go ahead and leave .

Go ahead and leave , right , we're just not even having that . So it starts right there . Second thing is the people that are existing inside the organization .

Self-development is really what you know , attracted me and Jay together to work together , whether it's reading books , listening to podcasts , working out , um , I , I say , hey , just don't be an eight-figure earner , be an eight-figure father , husband , partner , like , do you know , be eight figures in all parts of your life , right ?

Um , so like we , we , you know , harp that on on the team as well , like you don't have to do push-ups , like we're both pretty jacked , right , but like you don't have to be , you know , jacked up . But what are you doing to improve yourself every day , to get better ?

And so we set non-negotiables bi-monthly with everybody to make sure that what do you want to do for yourself this month , over the next week or two , to get better ?

And we set those and we review those during our company meetings and we have a motivational chat where we all post those things , whether it be a good book , that we're reading , a good chapter , that we read our workouts , that we're doing , et cetera , right , whatever your non-negotiable was , that way it just continues to reinforce the culture and the standards that

we have in Miller Storm .

Right , the , the , that's that's making sure that the cancer doesn't get in right . And so , in that , what do you , how do you like ? I mean , you kind of mentioned , so you said , an eight figure . Right , I've heard this . I think that's what your interview with Brad Lee was titled something about like an eight figure husband , something like that .

What's the eight figure kind of mantra that you have and how do you , how does that apply through , you know , through the through business .

So one of my non-negotiables for the beginning of the month was I was going to pick my kids up from daycare every day at 615 . Right , because I work late . We work half days , is what we call it . Right , only half the day , twelve out of the 24 hours . Right , and people are like , oh , I work half days like you know four hours .

I , and people are like , oh , you work half days like you know four hours . I'm like , no , bro , 12 out of the 24 is what we're talking about . So I very rarely pick my kids up from daycare . And so I was like you know what ? I've been an eight-figure , you know , partner , I've been an eight-figure husband , but have I been an eight-figure dad lately ?

And so I was like , let's step it up . Let , this is something I want to accomplish . So for those two weeks I picked up my kids every day at 615 at daycare and just built a little bit better relationship with them . I watched the movies with them .

So even my oldest she's three we do the little handshake from Nemo , where they're like Finn and we slap each other's hand and we say Shell , and we tap our heads together and we say you rock , dude .

And so I did that way this morning and it's just something that we picked up over those two weeks , you know , attempting to be that eight-figure father , uh , for them . And so I say all acts , best of life . I don't want to win with just money . Guys that just have money , some of them suck . I'm like you ain't got nothing , homie . I've been .

I'm happily married , my kids are . You know we're slapping hands and hitting heads . You know , like the people , people love me and around me for the good energy Cause I work out and like you know , I treat myself right , I treat my partners right , I go above and beyond for it for people , and so it just translates through all areas of my life .

Um , and then you know , and it I attract the success . I don't have to go chasing it .

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