Episode 100: Celebrating One Hundred Episodes!

And there's a hell I saw it, you see. Real everlasting.

Yeah. You're listening to the Rethinking Hell podcast, where evangelical Christians discuss what the Bible says about hell. and controversial views to the test. To continue the discussion and find more resources on this You can visit us online at the end. Cảm ơn các bạn đã theo dõi và hẹn gặp lại. Thinking help dot com

Well, let me go around then and uh introduce everybody uh to the listening audience. There's a big group of us in the call today, um and it'll be good for the listeners to be able to distinguish one voice from another. So in no particular order, uh other than um the order of regulars to newbies, um, we'll start with Nick. Uh you're first in my uh on my screen. How are you doing?

I'm great, Chris. Thank you. Good. Uh that's Nick Quint uh for your listeners. He's uh participated in the podcast several times, done some uh some blog posts. You guys will recognize his name. Uh next up is Glenn. Your voice is of course very familiar. How are you doing? Yeah, not bad. Um possibly a little bit colder than you lot um down here in New Zealand in the middle of winter.

Yeah, it was when I was down there a few weeks ago it was uh it was it was definitely very cold. I don't uh I don't envy that. Although I will say that it's really hot here in my neck of the woods in Washington and I'd much rather be in the cold that you're in than than the warm I'm in. The grass is always greener, as they say. Yeah, the grass tends to be greener here, I think. I don't know. Washington State's got pretty green grass, although you're rolling green hills there. Yeah.

Okay, well let's uh move on next to Joey. Joey, uh you're also gonna be familiar to our listening and reading audience. How are you doing? Hi Chris, good, thanks. Uh glad to be here. Awesome. Um William, you're up next. How are you doing? I'm doing great. Thanks, Chris. Good. Uh and listeners will no doubt be familiar with your voice and writing. Um and you've also presented at Rethinking Health conferences. Thanks for that. Next up is another pastor, Pastor Graham. How are you doing, Graham?

Oh I'm doing all right. How are you guys doing? I'm uh happy to be here this evening and well I mean I guess it's not evening for everyone, but it is for me, so It's evening for most of us I think in the States. You you people down under and in uh in New Zealand, uh I imagine it's a little different.

No, no we got one more? Okay. But uh but yeah, no, so it's getting a little late, but I'm um I'm glad I can uh set aside some time to participate in this. Well I appreciate it. Uh Daniel Sinclair, you're up next. How are you doing? Good. Cheers from Northern California. Uh uh Dan will also be familiar to the listening and reading audience. Uh next up is of course the uh ineffable. I don't know what that word is, but it's uh means but it sounds good. The ineffable Peter Grice, how are you doing?

Uh doing well, thank you. Greetings to everybody from Brisbane, Australia. Uh and then let's see, is that all of the regulars or have I missed anybody? I think I'm gonna give you guys a second to correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's all the regulars. So now what I wanna do is introduce a few people that might be new uh to the listening audience. One person

will not be new to people that listen very faithfully, and that is Peter Berthelson. Uh Peter, you did the um debrief on the Len Pettis debate, I believe, on our on the podcast, isn't that right? Yes, the marathon. The marathon. That did take a while, that's true. Uh thank you for being here. Yeah, of course, my pleasure. Uh but the voices that will be new to listeners, I'm I'm fairly certain. Um we've got another voice from Australia in the form of Darren Clark. How are you doing, Darren?

Oh very well, thank you. Do you wanna tell us a word or two about how you um got how you became familiar with Rethinking Hell and got involved with us? Oh okay. Um Well, yeah, after some reading I come across your your book, Rethinking Hell, and there's a a website that it directed me to, I got on there. Um

I had a look at the material, then I I after the after a while I caught on that you're on Facebook, found that and bingo. And then just from there just came on um worked itself out from there. As I got the know you guys. Yeah. Well it's great to have you and our uh listeners and readers will not know this until I tell them uh which I'm about to do in a moment, but you're actually in the process of sort of revamping our explore section, isn't that right? Uh parts of yeah.

Well we appreciate your efforts there because we often get feedback saying that that explore section, that the scripture passages section needs to be filled out. And uh listeners be be assured that although the progress is slow going on all of our parts, we are we are uh working on that. So

Thanks again uh for that. Next up is Chris Ray. Chris Ray, before I introduce you, listeners won't be familiar with you if they're only listeners to Rethinking Hell, but if they're listeners to my old podcast, The Apologetics, they might be familiar with their voice. Do you want to say why that is?

Well yeah, I uh actually got the pleasure about a year ago of being on a series on The Apologetics with you and Karen Ann Harloff, aka D D Warren, uh talking about third party voting options for American voters who had become disenfranchised with the Republican Party. And uh that was my first experience in podcasting.

and open a huge Pandora's box for me. Yeah. No kidding. In fact as as a result of doing that show, um, you you on the show, if if people don't or if you don't mind me sort of letting the cat out of the bag Although you defended up time. Yeah, although you were there to defend the Constitution Party as a third party voting option, you have since actually in progress of recording those episodes changed your your your stance, isn't that right?

I did, I did. I started out there being anything but a libertarian uh and uh ended up registering for the party prior to the recording of the final episode. That's hilarious. Although I am not a libertarian, uh it was a very it was an enormous pleasure and honor to get to meet you and Didi Warren in person at the uh the Libertarian uh party meeting down there in Portland. It was a real joy to meet you and I hope we get to see each other again soon.

Hey Chris? Yeah. Yeah. Real quick, we need to test this. Christopher Ray, is taxation theft? Tanitively yes. Alright, there we go. Now we know he's a libertarian, he's not talking. You're here. I I will not yet answer that uh question in the affirmative. Um, but uh fortunately I'm the host, so you guys can't kick me off. I can kick you off though, so go uh be careful what you say. Well, there's there there are benefits to being the public face of Rethinking Hill.

So it's fascism, bruh. Chris, if I may ever so briefly state how I got uh introduced to rethinking. Yeah, sorry, I forgot. I should have asked you that. That's all right, I was a seminary student working on my uh Master of Divinity and for my esti eschatology class I decided to write a paper showing why annihilationism was a heresy. And in my research for that paper

I was converted. I found the arguments particularly uh uh Glenn uh People's paper uh that I read as well as Clark Pinnock's paper ex extraordinarily convincing, I was introduced to Edward Fudge and Rethinking Hell in my research uh and have come alongside you guys uh since that point.

Well it's a real pleasure to have you. You it's funny you mentioned Clark Pinnock's name. I'm not an enormous fan of Clark Pinnock's work, but I'll tell you I do kind of wish that uh we had become, you know, the the ministry that we are prior to his passing. I would have loved for him to uh have

you know, picking up and carrying the work that he was doing, although maybe from a different angle. Anyway, I don't know where I'm going with that. Um, thanks again, Chris, for for being here. And I think if I haven't missed anybody else, there's just one last person to introduce, and that is uh Mark. Mark Corbett, is that right?

Yes, that's right. Awesome. Um Mark, why don't you tell the listening audience a little bit about oh, you so although you haven't been um introduced to the listening audience yet, you have contributed an article or two to Rethinking Hell Rethinking Hell, isn't that right? Yes, that's correct. So tell us how did you get um involved in uh Rethinking Hell? How did you find Discover Us and get involved?

Um, you know, I don't remember the the details. Um the Lord led me to um bleak in annihilationism and then I was researching that and somewhere along the l line uh probably about maybe five, six years ago, I'm not sure exactly. I came across your website and uh Facebook page and started to follow in your books and uh found it very helpful.

Well we appreciate that and we appreciate your involvement and we appreciate you being here tonight. It's it's really a joy for me personally, uh, whenever somebody with a pr particularly a uh pastoral uh heart and profession join a team. Um, you know, we've already got some people on the call that uh are in that kind of a role. Um having another one in the form of you is really great. So thank you for being here as well. Glad to be Keel.

Well if I haven't missed anybody, I want to explain to our audience why it's been about six months since we've had our last podcast episode. It's there's really uh very little to explain. We wanted to have sort of a fun, light hearted conversation with as many people that are involved in the Rethinking Hill Ministry as we could get together on Skype all at one time. Finding out, um

uh a day and time that would work for as many people as possible and working through technical issues and um vr a variety of other things meant that it has been a while. Uh but here we are for episode one hundred. I don't know about you guys, um To me, uh this has been an incredible journey for me. I've I've really enjoyed it and a hundred episodes is a is a really exciting milestone for me. as somebody who is very often

uh the one that is um, you know, publicly doing uh debates and things like that, um, speaking at conferences on on rethinking hell's part. Uh I get a lot of the attention, but uh you guys all mean a tremendous amount to me and I wouldn't

Rethinking hell. You know, Greg Greg when he introduced me at the two thousand fifteen Rethinking Hell conference said he doesn't even know if there'd be a rethinking hell if it weren't for me. I think that th there wouldn't be a rethinking hell if it weren't for you all. So I just wanna say thank you to you all. Um, a hundred episodes is a pretty awesome milestone I think for me and it just it's I I have been repeatedly convinced and convicted over the past several years

that God is really doing something profound through us. Uh, and it's just such a joy and honor to not only be used by the Lord in that kind of thing and what he's got in store, but also getting to do that with all of you guys is just a tremendous blessing. So I don't know. I'll... I'll... I'll just say that and then uh you know if at any point any of you guys have some reflections on on the milestone, go ahead and speak up. But in any event.

That's why we haven't had an episode in six months. We will be talking shortly about what the next several episodes have in store, and we'll be inviting um ideas for additional episodes. Uh but let's start.

Catching people up with the most recent event, um, which have been in the form at least as far as Rethinking Kell is concerned, and that's the recent Um, fourth annual International Rethinking Hell Conference, which we had in Uh Glen People's Neck of the Woods, almost. It wasn't uh uh the the southern part of the Northern Island of New New Zealand, but um Auckland, which is there on the northern end, if I'm if my geography is any good at all.

Um Peter and Glenn, you both were there. So maybe I can turn to each of you first Peter and then Glenn for sort of your reflections on on how the conference went. Tell tell our listeners about what the experience was like for you. You said first Peter. Peter first. Or maybe I maybe I should pull a trump and say one Peter. Well no, I guess that uh British people do that too, don't they? We do that too. Be careful there, Chris. Well, Peter G first. Why don't you go?

Well this was um this was I guess uh nearly a month ago now, um and it was uh Windsor Park Baptist Church in Auckland who hosted us, so um thank you to you guys for doing that. Um it was of course very nice to catch up with you, Chris, and you, Glenn, and to uh for me to finally meet Matt Flanagan, who I hadn't met before. He's part of the Rethinking Hell team as well.

uh and local uh in New Zealand. And uh many of the people from um the CIANZ, the Conditional Immortality Association down there, um who are uh very much a part of um the Conditionalist movement. And uh a highlight for me I guess was Um hearing for the first time in a while um from David Powers and also hearing from Ian Packer. I'll just um briefly

talk about who th who they are. But because this was in a sense a regional conference for Australia and New Zealand, this part of the world, um, we were able to get uh David and Ian over from Australia. And um some people will be familiar with David's work. He's um a a Bible scholar on hell. He's a also an Anglican minister in Melbourne.

Um but his academic work uh in the past is featured very much in the discussion and has been cited by J. I. Packer as well. So he came across and gave us a summary of his dissertation, uh a rather meaty summary, which helps to um uh sort of give flesh out the conference in more academic terms I feel. So that was really good. And also Ian Packer, who's had a lot of experience um with the Evangelical Alliance in Australia and also the region.

And uh he's a Baptist minister and he's a lecturer uh in theology and he's a public th theologian as well, so

He was able to share with us his um perspective on this whole topic and this conversation uh from the vantage of public ministry, evangelism and just drawing on his experience. So it was really great great I think to to hear from those those two guys and to be able to look forward to following up in Australia and New Zealand um on the conversation that was started at at this recent conference.

Very cool. Yeah, it was uh it was great to meet uh Doctor Powis. Um d ha have you to spoken to him since? Is a have you heard whether uh he you know he enjoyed being a part of that and and w you know whether he looks forward to getting involved once again in the discussion?

Yes, very much. So he's um he was energized by his experience and uh we've been excited to chat a little bit more about um what he wants to do in the future on this topic. He's um like all of us, he's got his he's got his um current commitments. But he very much sees himself as remaining in the in the discussion. So that was really exciting to hear from him even afterwards as to

all all the all the possibilities uh for his involvement. Yeah, very cool. Well Glenn, let's turn to you next. Uh uh w tell us about your experience there and and any highlights that stand out to you. Yeah. Um I mean by the the highlight as always is is getting together with uh with a group of people who who share both both the general outlook. I mean there are lots of ways in which we don't all agree but uh it you know

It it was nice to not be a minority. Um, you know, to be able to to talk with with the supposition that we both have a common goal in terms of getting this message out. Uh you know, so It was good to to be among and to talk with people who are all on the same team and who all have this same uh sort of concern. Um you know, in the conversations that we were having, it was it was quite evident that we were not all alike.

Uh, but that's fine. Um the the as as we as I call them, we don't I mean uh technically they're the C I A N Z but I just call them the C I A'cause it sounds cooler. They're a very a very diverse bunch of of of Christians down here. Um and I don't o don't often get to see them. Um, maybe I should. Maybe I should be more involved in the scene, but you know

Um taking a break from from my ordinary commitments and being among my peeps. That was it it's always a wonderful experience. It's it's something we don't get to do often other than virtually. Yeah. Uh in terms of the talks, I mean they were they were all very all very good, all very high quality, all um potentially thought prov uh provoking. I say potentially because that requires action on the part of the listener. Um

I guess it just got me thinking about a and and this actually links back to the fact that this is our one hundredth episode because that also gets me thinking about okay, what Does the next step look like? Yeah. Because as I was listening to all the um all the talks and as as you might uh go back and listen through to all our podcasts, you kinda say, Okay, so you've really made the

that conditional immortality is what scripture teaches. Uh what are you gonna do now? Are you just gonna keep making that case? Because that that doesn't seem like a very smart use of our time. Uh and so it just got me wondering what is it that that we we we should be doing with this now? I think that's an excellent question. Uh and I don't know what the answer or answers

to that question um might be. I I will say that without giving away the identity of my potential co author because he doesn't want to let that be known unless we get a book deal, uh I am working on a uh something I hope will contribute

to the future of this uh of this conversation. As as many or m or all of you know, I'm working on a book with a co author in which we're going to be trying to build on the exegetical work of people like Edward Fudge, uh and and start to place conditionalism in in uh i you know, in into a systematic theology of life and of death and of mankind and of human nature and so forth and so

Um you know, there will certainly be some exegesis in it, but we're gonna be doing some theology as well, which I'm really looking forward to. Um and I don't know about you, Glenn, but i John Stackhouse at the very first conference said that kind of thing, that that our critics and especially the theologically minded, before they um, are going to be convinced they're gonna need to see this view cast in in a bigger in in light of the bigger sort of meta narrative of scripture and not just sort of

you know, uh raw forensic exegesis of text is as important as that stuff is. Um do you do you have a sense that John's onto something there? Yeah man, I said that at the first conference. Yeah, I I certainly do. And I mean the way in which I've been trying to push that, uh, both in in other publications not related to Rethinking Hell, but also uh in in what I did at the most rethinking rethinking hell most recent Rethinking Hell conference.

is to push into the area of theology proper, that is our doctrine of God and of Christology. Because that's Well, one of the most important parts of our theology. It's what we make of of the person of Christ and the mechanics of what he did a a and so on. So I was talking about the atonement.

Uh that's that's just one example. But yeah, we need to we need to look at the ripples that uh i if any, uh that conditional immortality creates in our worldview, in our syst systematic theology, in our overall Biblical theology and go to those areas that may be affected and talk about them as well so that we can create this thing holistically. Yeah. Yep, I agree.

It's funny that you guys mentioned that because for the last month and a half since I finished Robert Taylor's book. uh uh rescued from death. That's what I've been thinking a lot about. is that this is more than an exegetical exercise.

thinking about the ways that conditional immortality affects our soteriology, affects our atonement theology, affects our doctrine of God, affects our doctrine of man, which Chris, as I've discussed with you, uh really, you know, God's God's love for man and even lost man, uh, was such an overwhelming uh theme in Taylor's book.

Uh you know, I've been I've been really thinking a lot the last few weeks about this very same thing that really if this is if we believe that conditional immortality is a solid, sound theological doctrine, then it, like any other part of theology, affects all of theology and really approaching and and uh and presenting that I think is a fantastic step.

Yeah, you know, it's what I've been impressed by, one of the things that impressed me about conditionalism when I was considering it and has since c impressed me, is that Uh it does have downstream ripples into other areas of of theology, but none of those downstream ripples appear to me anyway to be to deviate from um broadly accepted evangelical positions. But on the other hand, what they do seem to do is they seem to magnify uh certain things that

that uh I I didn't re that that I wasn't aware of prior. So just as one example Um the the th this doctrine that doesn't change you know, it it doesn't deviate from sort of an orthodox understanding of human nature and of uh of of the future of humankind or or anything like that. But on the other hand, what it does do is it causes a person who embraces it, I think,

to appreciate the the value of life qua life, you know, as life. The the value of life itself and not l uh rather than the value of life according to however that life is experienced. And so for me the the um the significance of life itself has taken on a whole new level of meaning since I've become a conditionalist and things like euthanasia and abortion and

uh and a variety of other related topics strike me more emotionally now because I realize just how precious life is as life. Uh I don't know if you guys have a similar experience there. Yeah if I definitely This is something that that has struck me a number of times when people talk about how Annihilationism, you know, the the loss of life in hell forever.

somehow i is nothing or somehow that's not really a punishment or that's what the wicked would want. That's like putting them out of their misery and that's a good thing. Which leaves me to say, so you're saying euthanasia is a good thing? And these same people will will will go out of their way and make arguments against euthanasia.

Um that that contradict their very attitude to life when it comes to talking about eternity. Which just suggests to me that when they're talking about theology they're talking about it as though it's something that's not real. Absolutely. And I I think conditionalism actually magnifies the value of the human being, magnifies the value of the human soul that that lost humans are not going to live in this state of eternal unrepentance.

despicable rebellion against God. I think that that that actually magnifies uh what we know to be true about the way that God thinks about us and it magnifies the glory of God. One of the things that really impressed me with conditionalism when I was not yet believing it was the the idea of the ultimate, total, complete reign of God.

and what that means if a place of eternal conscious torment exists. Uh and you know, i like you said, Chris, with so many other solid evangelical doctrines, conditionalism folds right into their so beautifully and props them up rather than dismantling them as some of our detractors uh would often say. Yeah. Hey hey Chris. Uh that's a uh Chris Ray. Well hey Chris too. Uh that's a really I I was getting a I got a a a drink with a friend last night and we were talking about this very issue.

And the whole conversation revolved around uh'cause the essential question he asked me was, Well what does that mean for, you know, these sorts of doctrines? And I basically said, Well, first of all, at the end of the day when we're talking about this, we're talking also in addition to the reign of God, the kingdom of God and bioethics and stuff. We're also talking about the the the the goodness of God as well.

And how God cares so much about the human person, cares so much about the body that he would dare to raise it back to life again. And so just this even for our anthropology and for how we speak about the human person uh person, uh plays a lot into this as well. And my friend actually kinda had to stop and goes, So that's why Paul spent so much time on the resurrection of the body and I was like, Yeah, that's it's it's kind of a big deal. It

You're not getting a new one. You're not getting something else. You're getting you know, you're kinda stuck with what you got but God's gonna God loves it so much, God created it this way that it's gonna be something good again, so to speak. So Amen, amen. Yeah, and you know, you just ni just y you you got you and Chris both sort of talked about one uh of what John Stackhouse has called the two poles.

of God's goodness. Um, but I'm and I'm and I'm impressed by that, but what I'm equally impressed by is how conditionalism fits with the other so called pole of God's goodness, which is his holiness and his his uh hatred of sin. You know, w uh the argument that I've begun making sort of as a supplement to my biblical and theological case well, I or to my biblical case, is uh th is is that According to the traditional view of hell

God not only permits the everlasting exercise of evil, of sin, or at the very least, the you know sinful dispositions. He no longer He not only permits it, he actually secures it. uh by granting immortality to the people who so remain uh s rebellious. And so uh this this God whom the Bible describes as thrice holy, holy, holy, holy, you know, who who is uh you know, uh uh said to not be able to even look upon sin, who I think

mistakenly is said by some Christians as saying he he even separated he his love was separated from the Son when he hung on the cross. I think that's a mistake. But the point is, is that this God who we as Christians think is so averse to evil and un in injustice and rebelliousness, is, according to the traditional view, the very one who in who ensures

that that kind of thing goes on for eternity. Whereas in our view, God is so holy uh that he eradicates evil from the cosmos. And that to me st is i is pretty profound as well. For in a word, sin is immortalized. A perverse and terrifying thought, if if you ask me. Exactly. God creates a an eternal safe haven, if you will, for the damned, to be damned in all their damnedness. Right. Chris. Yeah. Aaron here. I'd like to add something if I may. Of course.

All right. Um uh th I love this kind of um discussion. I I am an exegete at heart, but I I I love to to to talk about theology too. And it strikes me and what impresses me so much about the trajectory that say Glenn is taking us on and and John Stackhouse is at Um with the broader f uh I guess thinking about the broader frameworks like theology and that it changes the questions that we might ask, which is, you know, for instance, we come back to holiness and um you know you see discussions about

uh where where people are talking about how how can be just that you know whether God could annihilate someone on the spot or for how long, you know, if it's into eternity. But I think I think we're wrong often the wrong questions are being asked. It's like, you know, don't we realise that these are the sinners and the and and the saints being confronted with the full holiness and glory of God. Um, how can it not be just? Whatever happens from there. So um it might change

the frames of references and the kinds of questions that we uh we ask and so we might even be able to get away from the same old, same old discussions and and get into new kinds of discussions. I mean, you know, uh Uh I think we've been there at some some points here and there on on the on Facebook. Um, but I'd love to explore that. Um I've got ideas in my head about Um how the Bible develops that idea of what happens to people when they're confronted with

even partially the the uh uh the even a partial confrontation with the glory of God, like in uh Leviticus ten, you got two priests and bang, gone. I mean th there's I think the Bible is full of that stuff, but we we don't you know, the the the the um debate is often just about these little isolated texts in a lot of ways. So I think there's a lot of opportunities what I'm saying to to really change how the how the discussion proceeds and that is it really exciting to me.

You know, you you remind me of a psalm and I I don't know what psalm it is'cause I don't have it in front of me, but uh it says that the mountains melt like wax before God and that nothing can stand before his holiness. I mean h how how

how much more is that true of sin and of sinful rebellious man and and that really resonates when I was studying theology, one of the first things I read that stuck with me, uh i the theology book we were using was Millard Erickson and he says I think in his introduction that pieces of theology cannot be held in isolation. Your theological your theology and your theological worldviews have to be able to mesh with one another, have to be able to fit in with one another.

So I think that as we're we're taking this one doctrine and examining it tha that that's a natural natural place to go is to show where it fits in with the rest of systematic or or or whatever formulations of theology we have. Yeah.

Yeah, you know, I'm looking forward to what Theology is going to be like, say, twenty years from now when conditionalists are able to make much um more uh thorough contributions to you know evangelical theology. Um I you people you know, I've a I've s I've sometimes told people that when it comes to, for example, the impact on the atonement.

Um, there's a lot of great questions people have about what conditionalism might mean for the atonement and I think that there are possible answers. But one of the problems is that the evangelical world has not really been free to explore Those kinds of implications uh f for quite some time. And I think that uh as the the evangelical world is fur it becomes freer to do so, I think we're going to see a great number of new insights into um you know, in into theology.

uh as a result of conditionalists being freer to contribute, if that makes any sense. Hey Chris. Chris, this is Dan. Can I speak? Please.

Uh one of the things we were talking about strategy going forward and I'm very excited to see that we are finally integrating our theology into a broader systematic and I know we've kind of up till now resisted that because we wanted to get our own house in order and also not to alienate anyone who's got a prior commitment to some specific related theology. But I'm excited to see it move forward. But I think we ought to do it strategically. Like I think starting out with the atonement and

uh is a nice next step as opposed to starting out with how we integrate with uh end times theology or eschatology. Um So I think part of our strategy needs to be thought out is how what theologies, related theologies do we want to address as we build a systematic and how can we not uh unnecessarily

uh exclude certain views but maybe say this is the view that is most congruent and here's how these other views of the atonement or whatever can also be seen as congruent but we find these less compelling and maybe we don't even have to make that judgment call.

Yeah, I uh I have a few thoughts as Mark. Um So I think part of what we're talking about is what some people call the uh the homeutic circle, which is that uh the Bible uh is one of the beautiful wonderful things about scripture is that it's so coherent and understanding the details of the

The parts helps us to understand better the big picture and understanding the big picture, uh, which would include things like systematic theology helps us to understand uh the details of the parts. Now, I think most of us this is certainly true for me. the the initial really str uh powerful, strong arguments in favor of conditional immortality

uh were primarily exegetical. Uh for me it was verses, uh passages, uh word studies of particular words. Uh did It just seemed to make the case for conditional immortality and annihilationism so strong Uh but recently I've been thinking more about the other part of the circle where you're looking at the big picture and part of what's driven me to do that is interacting more uh uh with um universalists because universalist arguments are um

It it wouldn't be fair to say that they don't do any exegesis, but uh they definitely emphasize things like meta narrative and um the big story a lot more. And I'm thoroughly convinced that not only do we have the best exegesis, but we have the best meta narrative and uh the best uh big story, the best system mathematics theology and I think all of that is beginning to come out and and and that uh it will be seen more and more. Yeah, I think you're right.

Any last thoughts before I uh keep us moving forward? Well for what it's worth, um, I have started to notice on the website, and this is this is a good thing, I do see a bit of a shift. in the direction of broader systematic themes. I mean I'm just looking over you know some of the articles posted in the last year. You know, we have um ones on the atonement. We have um

We have uh Peter B, or we call a second Peter, his uh great article um about the new creation theology and the annihilating power of God's presence. It you know, addressing kind of the the broad idea of how If, you know... Normally people think of s hell as being cut off from God's presence, but you look and with lots of scriptural references, of course, in context. Um, but it shows the way that God's presence and his holiness is actually destructive to the sinner.

in a broad sort of sense. And I think, you know, this is a good direction for us to go into. I mean, not that we should abandon the scripture, but we have addressed a lot of the scripture and approaching these things, you know, the systematic theology, the attempts at sort of reaching people where they're at with articles about, you know

little reasons here and there not to be afraid to start rethinking things. You know, there's been a couple of articles about that that are kind of at a lay level. It's like, hey, don't be afraid to rethink hell because of this I I think uh I see us going in that direction already and I think it's a very positive development. Yeah.

Awesome. Well, hey Peter G, first Peter, um, can you uh give us any insight into when the recordings of those talks at the conference might be available to listeners? Yes I can, um since I'm the one working on the editing side. Um they will be out uh either all at once or um in a series towards the end of this month. And we don't want to release them immediately after a conference because what that could do is encourage people not to attend our events and to sort of say, Oh, okay.

Uh it's all happening uh but I'm gonna get to see it, you know, when it's happening. Anyway, a lot of people like like our events to be live streamed. Um but so there there are a couple of reasons for a little bit of a delay anyway, but they are on their way, so so look forward to those in the coming weeks.

Awesome. I'm I'm looking forward. I I'm not gonna belabor us or you know s take us down too far further in in this part of the uh recording, but I did want to just add one thing that I enjoyed. uh about the conference and that was getting to meet and hear from uh Matt Flanagan. Um I I was really I've really enjoyed

He is an incredibly careful thinker, at least on this topic, or at least that's the impression that I got from his talk, and I'm really excited to share his talk, uh, with Sean Bowlski, uh, to whom he responded in that talk. So Um uh yeah, please do get uh let us know when those videos are available. I can't wait to share it. Um let's shift uh gears a little bit and talk about what maybe some of our flat plans for future conferences are. I mean, for example, we're actively planning

uh a conference in uh for twenty eighteen in the Dallas Fort Worth area in March and I won't say some of the names that we're trying to get to to arrive, but that's actively in the works. Um what kinds of things, really briefly w uh would you guys like to see uh in future conferences that maybe hasn't been uh we have we haven't done in past ones.

Well I think for me, uh being the sole Canadian here, um you know, we've had we've had Texas, we've had California, we've had England and New Zealand and um Perhaps it's time to uh to to bring Rethinking Hell North, um, not necessarily to Canada, but perhaps Canada or the northern United States. And I think that opens up some interesting opportunities uh to touch base with some folks who

You know, we we ha we have some strong conditionalist theologians working in in, you know, northern US and and in Canada as well that that might be interested in something like that. So Pitching that out there as uh, you know, rethinking Hell North. Could I could I put my my um

uh my name in the hat or my vote in the hat for maybe Vancouver because although you're on the east end of of Canada, Graham, if you could make it out to the west end, that's pretty close to me as well. And so we could get the Pacific Northwest involved as well. I vote for that as well. That sounds wonderful. Not selfishly at all. Depends what time of year it is, but if you're doing it in March you definitely don't want to be in Ontario, so

It's uh yeah. No Vancouver is nice, uh bit rainy, but uh I've heard good things, so I can see in the middle, maybe in the Midwest or something like that, in North Midwest like Minnesota or South Dakota or one of those. Yeah, that's possible too. Or Hell Michigan. No, Chris. What's gorgeous in the spring, Chris? I I said Portland is gorgeous in the spring. You Portland people are w well not you, but Portland people are crazy. I don't think we should do a conference in Portland.

Darn hippies. Yeah. Well, Chris, I I do know a guy in Saint Paul. Ah, yeah. Well there you go. We could do that. Although I really like the Hell Michigan idea. That's a that's a fantastic idea. So but but uh l let me ask the question a little bit differently. Besides location Maybe even besides individual speakers. Is there anything, you know, either uh themes or br or topics or s you know, um

Uh th th th things that we we would we would like to explore in future conferences that we haven't yet. Just I'm just trying to think out loud and and see what sort of thoughts we might have for future conferences. uh um conditionalism throughout church history. I think that would be uh a very interesting conference. Um One of the guests who's who I will not name or sorry, one of the people I won't name, but who I'm trying to get come and speak from the traditional perspective.

at the the the Dallas Fort Worth Conference next year is i is a specialist in church history. That might make for a that might make it a great opportunity to explore the history of hell, if you will. So I think that's a great idea. I I know Glenn, for example, did a a nice video a while back um about conditionalism in the Church Fathers, thinking s maybe something along those lines, but to go that goes further forward over the course of the conference.

Mm-hmm. That's right. Yeah, I've thought about doing more on that too, because those claims are not I mean, some of them are granted. Um I I I don't know of any traditionalists who dispute that Arnobius taught annihilationism. But some of the claims are contested. I don't think they're contested very well. Uh for example, there is an author who maintains that Irenaeus was a universalist. I think that's wildly false, but but it's a it's a respectable scholarly work that makes this claim.

Um uh similarly I know that there are some who reject uh especially in the Eastern Orthodox tradition who reject reject what I said about Athanasius. Um I was interacting with with one of them recently on Facebook. So yeah, there is more work to be done apologetically on that front.

I I haven't been to a uh conference yet. I I I hope I'll get to go to one soon. Um One thing a and perhaps this is already part of one, um I think it would be wonderful to have a uh a time that's kinda like a uh a a a prayer time, uh keeping in mind that uh Chris, one thing you said near the beginning of the talk really resonated.

with me that uh I have this sense that you also mentioned that d we are part of something big that God is doing. And um of course if if God isn't doing it then it wouldn't uh nothing good would ever come out of it. But recognizing that uh to spend some time together uh praying for God to bless uh our movement uh and and not just in terms of uh successfully making arguments, although that's certainly part of it, but uh with continued uh unity and watching over us and uh but not just us.

Uh I think that the specific rethinking hell group is uh thankfully uh a small part of a much broader movement of people moving towards conditionalism and annihilationism and uh and and to spend some time uh together uh praying about that and the results and uh one thing One of the many things to pray about is that uh this movement will happen as peacefully as

uh possible. Um I think uh that one of the things I really appreciate about Rethinking Hell is our dual emphasis not only in uh advancing conditional immortality but in doing it in a way that is uh grace Uh one thing that I think is powerful is personal testimony, and we heard a little bit of each person's at the beginning, and they're spread out across.

various podcasts, but it would be nice to hear in a little bit more detail each person's story about how they wrestled with this issue and their difficulties in coming to convictions about this. Yeah. No, I think that's uh a good idea. In fact I've got a uh a little bit of a testimony to play uh a little bit later in this in this phone call. One thing I wanted to do is is um Uh I I had expected to ask th uh this a little bit later in the conversation, but since Mark was talking about the um

Uh the the fact that we at rethinking hell are really just a small part of a larger community. I know that that's something that uh first Peter you wanted to I'm I'm not gonna let that go. Uh uh Peter Grice, that was something that you wanted to uh comment on was was the fact that we are part of a bigger a bigger movement, a bigger community. Do you want to say a word or two about that now?

I I think so, yeah, that'd be um I think it'll be helpful. I mean there's a sense of occasion now that we've we're talking about the hundredth episode of the podcast and um it's been about five years since Rethinking Hole's been going.

Um and even just the conference theme as well was which was about the the five hundredth year since the the Protestant Reformation. Um I think I really just wanted to encourage And remind ourselves and our listeners not to lose sight of the bigger picture, uh which is which is global and historic. It's very easy when you're in such a controversial area to get dragged into certain ways of doing that, which are at times a little bit too narrowly focused.

And uh there may be a little bit of naval gazing going on in the church sometimes that we have to uh watch out for. Mm-hmm. And um but from the beginning of rethinking hell we haven't set out to claim some sort of territory in the church. No, as if we're engaged in a kind of bus and them tussle for the truth.

Um instead we've looked at who has gone before us in this conversation and who else is out there now in the church globally who has the same kind of conviction as us that the Bible teaches conditional immortality. And we've seen ourselves rethinking hell as humbly representing this view on their behalf. As a service to our fellow believers in the church who might be wanting to know what it's all about, what we think we see in the Bible and why we think it's so important.

Our motivation isn't to to try and win some silly, you know, ministry turf war or anything like that. Um you know, debates are fine. Um there's there's there's pl a a place for polemics of course. But um, you know, sometimes some people seem to assume the worst in us just because we don't take that traditional view on this one particular doctrine.

Um so yeah, uh we just need to be aware of um the difference there of the the the temptation and the tendency to be drawn in um to a narrow a na too narrow focus. Uh and we just need to keep doing our best to study the issue, communicate to others what we understand. So it's all about the irenic conversation going forward and we don't want to lose sight of that bigger picture in terms of our participation in the broader church, Christ's kingdom. Uh and also in in historical terms

Uh where our efforts are aren't just about now and whoever we happen to be disagreeing with at the moment. We need to lift our eyes and see things from God's perspective as much as it's possible for us to do that. And Peter, I would like to carry that philosophy into our systematics as again, as I mentioned before, that we don't unnecessarily exclude

various views. Like for instance, as an example, when it comes to the atonement, I know there are at least three primary views, and I find them all fairly compelling, and perhaps uh even har uh harmonious in some sense. So I I think we just need to tread with caution to not be unnecessarily exclusionary and that irenic tone extends to our method of systematic. I I totally agree, Dan. And um

Um I think it's up for for up to Rethinking Hell to help others who are in touch with um our presentation of of things to appreciate that difference. If we If we um if we want to um chime in on other related doctrines, it needs to be seen within the context of um th our purview am amongst the evangelical church. So the diversity that exists in the evangelical world is the same diversity that we are allowed to discuss, we're allowed to have our own opinions on. Uh but not not to forget that um

Rethinking hell is also representing that diversity. So if you're a conditionalist, if you're an evangelical, uh that's where it's at primarily. And if we want to uh look at other areas, that's perfectly fine because evangelicals do that already.

But I think just s so long as people understand that how we we're sort of nav navigating that terrain as a ministry and not to come in and and think of us as Um if if if one of us or some of us want to say something about another area, not to not to take that as the final word for all conditionalists And it it's it's not it's not always easy easy for us to even sort of think about those two that that dynamic. So we need to just help help other people appreciate um the difference there.

Uh Chris, you said something at the beginning of this that's that's been on my mind the whole call. You s you talked about the fact that this is a ministry. It's the rethinking hill ministry. And in the past I've been guilty of forgetting that. People say, Oh, what are you doing? Oh, it's my study group or it's my theology group. But when we when we couch this as a ministry, when we

think about the fact that that's what this is. That this is more than a study club. This is more than a a group of guys talking about theology. That that this is a ministry that really helps to propel that ironic type of conversation and that openness and that yes, we're dogmatic in what we believe because we believe it's what the scripture teaches, but we're not so dogmatic that we're

that we're alienating or pushing people away. We're wanting to draw people close and show people this vision of the great love of God and the great value of man uh that we believe the scriptures have shown us.

And I I know for me personally that's gonna be working on my heart quite a bit in these conversations is remembering that this is a ministry, that this is a service to our fellow believers as they evangelize, as they walk in their own faith walks, and it is a service to those who are still lost. A service that seeks to paint a biblically accurate picture of the loving God who is drawing them near and wooing them with his love and his grace and his mercy. Yeah, very good. Amen. Thank you.

All right, well let's keep the ball rolling um and talk for a moment about some of our future uh ministry plans and and plans in particular for the podcast or for the website m more broadly speaking. Um I mentioned that um Uh we do have some plans, uh some things in the works for upcoming episodes of the podcast. It in particular, um, and I think this is something that a lot of people have been looking forward to as we've been telling people that that it's in the works.

is a review of the um the book Hell Under Fire, edited by Christop Christopher Morgan and Robert Peterson. Uh we've already recorded a first of a series of about seven episodes at where we'll be responding to one or two chapters at a time.

Um so I'm really looking forward to starting that series. I think people will enjoy it. Um I know that uh when you and Glenn, you and I and uh one other person, I think it might have been Graham was it, recorded the first episode of Yeah, and I remember I asked uh you, Glenn, w if you thought

like I do, that Hell Under Fire is one of the best books in defense of the traditional view and and you didn't necessarily. Um but I think a lot of people do see it that way. Um and so I'm looking forward to being able to release those. A another thing that we're working on uh are we've just begun this actually our short little three to four minute uh YouTube videos that cover a particular passage or a particular topic.

Um we think this is something that'll be useful if if somebody's on Facebook in a conversation and wants to post a comment to uh linking to a very short YouTube video explaining a particular passage when they're asked about it in a conversation. They'll be able to start linking to these. We'll be able to embed them in the explore page and uh you know, in the other website forums and stuff. So I think that's gonna be uh a r a really useful um tool.

And of course I'm I've still got more of these little short interviews of from contributors to uh a consuming passion that I'll s that I'll continue to release after the Hell Under Fire series. What are some of the other kinds of things you'd like to see us cover in episodes of the podcast or or on the website in one form or another?

Yeah, I mean this isn't this isn't a specific subject, it's a category of subject. And and it's I guess what we've been talking about this whole time, about branching out from specifically and explicitly talking about what happens to people who go to hell and and talking about more broadly about theology that within that new I don't want to say new, but within that a rethought Christian outlook.

Uh, so that there are there will be s some parts of the podcast where people don't even realise we're talking about conditionalism until perhaps we get to the end and wrap it up and say, Now this is why this actually matters. This is c this is related to the wider view in in the following way.

Say we're talking about I don't know, maybe not anthropology because that's one of those areas where I know there are people in the group who who have diverse views and we like to extend it a little grace. Well, some of you do, I don't. So just you know, any anything that we see as related, like the value of human life or or the nature of of of of embodied existence in the world as a as a good thing or or or or or whatever. But I would like us to branch out a bit.

Yeah, very good. I like that. What else do you guys got for us? I like that general uh I was thinking something along the same lines. Um I agree with everything Glenn said. Um, you know, looking at sort of broader pictures, broader themes mm, you know, other aspects of theology, of exegesis, and then looking at how

that broad principle that can be applied to beyond just the doctrine of hell, how that does apply to the doctrine of hell. Um, you know, I I've been thinking a lot uh lately about um you know, Bible interpretation because It's no secret that whether any one of us is right in everything or wrong in everything or right on this or wrong in that, when there's so many disagreements about so many, you know, doctrines, obviously a lot of people are wrong, which means

Somewhere along the line, someone's not doing it right. You know what I mean? And so that's one thing that's been big on me. You know, kind of looking at Bible interpretations and exegetical fallacy as all those sorts of things that are leading people to misunderstand the truth in God's word and Then seeing okay, how c how is uh that apply to this doctrine in particular? I mean it's it's not obviously not new. I mean uh uh there haven't articles, they're having

um podcast speeches. But I think that could be, you know, one so one of many focuses that we could um take in conjunction with one another. I think it could be very useful. You know, correct correct correct me if uh if I'm being too narrow here, but it sounds like we've got two directions for both our video and perhaps our podcast. One is kind of these concise sound bite uh things for new people or for sharing and the other is more in depth. theology and I wonder if we treat those as separate

um types of things with their own, you know, approach. I love for instance the Prager University videos which are seen everywhere and I wonder if our shorter bits can be I don't even know if we can animate them, but at least something to that effect where they're, you know, an a a talking head expert on the thing who can give us a short summary of something.

That's good, yeah, I think we're um these are the kinds of thoughts that we're exploring as we begin to put the first couple of these uh little short sound bite things together. So I think that's helpful. Uh Graham, I think I saw you about to say something, didn't I?

Uh sure. Um no I do have a thought here to to throw in. Uh one opportunity that I had very recently that that I think was very rewarding for me, I was invited to do uh a a guest lecture uh via Skype with a with a university class actually uh Um and on specifically dealing with uh

Hell and pastoral ministry. The course was on you know hell in Christian history and and so what does it mean for us to um to bring a a a view that is different about the questions of of hell and of death more broadly into a pastoral ministry context, uh, into evangelism, into um Into doing funerals, into doing liturgy, uh and how do we talk about about hell in those contexts?

Um because all uh often I mean I'm I'm I'm a pastor and f um and questions of hell, I mean, it's interesting for me, but they don't come up within the congregational setting except in very specific situations and and usually it's around uh funerals or when a loved one is dying and that's when those questions come up. And so how do we talk about it in those specific contexts? It's one thing for us

as a group of guys who are, you know, generally a as far as I know, all of us are are are relatively healthy and and death doesn't seem imminent for us. Um but what happens once when it is?

Uh and so how do we do we change how we talk about it in those contexts? And I think having a uh a practical theology of how we talk about uh the issue of of death, hell, resurrection uh our humanity and mortality and and the the resurrection bodies and how do we talk about those things with people who are i in the face out how do we talk about it in the context of worship? Uh how do we talk about about it as as people who are coming to worship Christ, uh who has made immortality a possibility?

And do we do we stop and take stock of that in our worship and just have the the awe and mystery of that? And I think that those those issues are worth exploring. Very good. Yeah, powerful stuff.

on how to preach these difficult texts. You know what I mean? Like i if if a group of pastors just sat down and, okay, we're going through, I don't know, Second Thessalonians one. What does this mean for our congregation? What does this mean for the people of God? What does it mean for uh bodies and and just ethics and and all this sort of thing. How would we preach this this text? What does it mean to preach the wages of sin is death?

what does it mean to say death is the final enemy? And so when you frame in the context of liturgy and funeral and and suffering, uh it it adds an a additional element. So a series on on preaching hell texts I think would be really interesting, especially for people who are pastors who are

steeped in the world of of of this and it they're it's it's in the air they breathe. So I think a lot of pastors, uh a lot of people would have a lot to contribute to that. So I think that'd be a really good series. And you know, I think that with when we are are ta speaking at funerals or speaking with with people whose loved ones have passed or about to pass, we're already halfway there in our conversation.

We already when I say we, I mean when I was a a a traditionalist, we already talked about the fact that death is not natural. Th that's why it feels so bad. That's why we have huge feelings of loss because this is not what God wanted. This is not what God created. And conditionalism just highlights that and pushes that up even more that death is not natural. Death is the penalty of sin. And death actually means death.

It doesn't mean everybody lives forever and it's just a question of what your address says. Right. And as Chris mentioned earlier, uh one of the biggest shifts I've found personally in theology is a shift away from um the emphases some traditional emphases back towards the emphasis on life and death as the kind of the core of what the gospel is about, rather than eternal punishment versus eternal bliss. And I I think uh in addition to that, just being able to articulate a a

It p essentially something along the lines of putting death in its place, right? And so when a lot of sermons I have heard this preached at at my old churches, that death is Kind of a it's a good thing. It's a it's a step towards you know

With Jesus and all this sort of kind of stuff. And I don't know about you, but whenever I I I read the Bible, Old Testament, New Testament, death is this enemy, it's this power, it's this thing that exercises dominion and and all this sort of stuff and you just kinda look at and go, I don't I don't know about you, but I don't want to die.

But you know, you kind of you frame it in such a way that a lot of theology modern evangelical theology is, yeah, death is a good thing because I get to go be a Jesus. It's like, no, death is a a horrific thing. And really recategorizing just the way we use basic words in evangelicalism I think is is is a necessity. If if we're gonna have an honest lexicon of of how we speak and frame and preach and talk.

We need to be honest with what words mean and maybe that requires us going through like word studies on certain words like Glenn's done with Popalumi and William and Peter and I on Alethros and other words. Maybe just going through this is what these words actually mean. And basically going back to the Bible, so to speak. We we as evangelicals should rail against death. We should scream from the rooftops against death. Death is the epitome of what it is to be anti God. Amen. Oh my goodness.

Well, let's uh this has been very good stuff. I wanna segue um into the next part, uh the remaining twenty to thirty minutes of our time together where we're going to Um w uh where we're going to focus on feedback that we solicited. when we several months ago told the Facebook group that we were going to be doing this episode one hundred and we wanted to know what sorts of questions they have, uh, what sorts of notes of appreciation they might want to share.

Um and and as a segue, since we've been talking about future plans for the ministry, uh the first question that I'll um uh that I'll put out there is from

uh Todd Pollock who wants to know and and Peter G, first Peter, this is for you. Can you tell us anything about the um Rethinking Hell version two, the the new website that we've been sort of talking about that we're that we're working on? Do you want to say a word or two about that?

Absolutely, yes. Thank you, Todd, for this question. Um a lot of people have been wondering uh since it's been mentioned and it is and they know that it's being worked on, what we're going to do is have a real focus on content with our with our two point oh website.

And this I think is related to a lot of the discussion we've been having about how we've already presented our case um to to a great extent um and and we need to start branching out and taking different directions. So you can really think about that as a a content strategy and a communication strategy. Um so we really need to get the introductory content out there to new audiences still.

um while also generating new and interesting content. And so it's all about restructuring and new delivery mech mechanisms and formats. So that's generally what what we're doing with with our website now. The current website's about five years old. Um and it's also what our ministry is wanting to do as well for the next few years in terms of content. So we'll be facilitating people's research better.

and their own journey um of rethinking this subject from start to finish. We'll actually be thinking about how does a person rethink health. Where do they start or where might they want to start and go to next and and give them all the tools um to be able to do that much better rather than just sort of searching and wading through the content and getting stuck somewhere.

Um so this is a quite a substantial undertaking as you might imagine. There's a lot of programming and database work involved. Uh but I think we might be looking at a an early Christmas present if I can put it that way. Woo, I can't wait.

Um, well, so w another thing that I'll uh uh uh uh there were two notes of appreciation that we received, one of which is in the form of text, which I'll read in a moment. Uh but one of them we received via email in the for a in the form of an audio recording. It's about four minutes long.

Um so this'll give you guys a chance to get a drink or use the toilet or something like that. Uh but I'm gonna I'm gonna play this uh this testimony of sorts from Truman Faulkner. Uh let's listen and uh and then we'll discuss briefly when it's done. Hi, my name is Truman. The Ministry of Rethinking Hell, particularly this podcast, has helped me think more critically and consistently when it comes to the biblical teaching of hell and immortality.

Refreshingly, rethinking hell doesn't dichotomize humility with confidence in what the scripture teaches. They seek to model both by consistently going back to the scriptures as the final authority in the face of misrepresentation and less than noble critique. Their rebuttals to traditionalists are gentle, humble, but clear, rooted in scripture, logical and eye opening. In coming to accept the view, I want to share two ways in which conditionalism has deepened my faith praise and concern.

Firstly, conditionalism has deepened my praise by magnifying the word of life, the gospel. Rather than all humanity living forever in one of two places, Jesus said whoever eats this bread will live forever. Paul states that Jesus brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. Conditionalism rightly places immortality and deliverance from death front and center in the gospel. By rethinking hell, conditionalism has further made me rethink heaven.

Vague and ethereal notions about eternity were laid aside and the concept of eternal life bore so much more meaning and beauty since it actually means to live forever. When I used to believe in the traditional view of eternal conscious torment, I took immortality for granted. Since everyone was immortal, the glorious prize of the believer, the crown of life, was in effect diminished.

If everyone is going to live forever by nature of being human or made in the image of God or whatever unsupported reasons people gave for universal immortality, Then there really isn't anything so special about Jesus' promise that whoever partakes of him will live forever. This diminishing of eternal life was not

Proves to be one reason why I think the traditional doctrine of eternal conscious torment should be examined and rejected in light of Scripture. Rethinking hell does exactly that, and in so doing they've helped sweeten my hope and the free gift of God eternal life. And deepen my praise. Secondly, conditionalism has deepened my concern for evangelism and discipleship. To put it simply, hell became more real to me.

The world tends to trivialize hell, and the fear of eternal torment is seen by many as far fetched. Even I found myself always struggling to wrap my mind around the concept of endless suffering forever and ever. But I didn't wrestle with the topic too often, since I found the reality of eternal punishment often ignored even in the church.

Save for evangelists, it seemed as if no one talked about hell. But because conditionalism proclaims a rescue from man's hidden dread, literal, permanent death, not some kind of ambiguous spiritual death of separation from God. The message became all the more relevant and lucid. God has come to deliver us from death. Releasing us from our slavery to the fear of death.

And offers us something invaluably precious, the promise of resurrection to immortality and a restored creation, governed in righteousness by Jesus forever. Well rightly should we warn everyone, as Paul said of the wrath to come, assuring ourselves that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death.

The church should not be embarrassed of hell, and I know that if leaders do not rethink, reclaim and proclaim the biblical nature of eternal punishment in contrast to eternal life. we run the risk of God's flock becoming more and more susceptible to a trivial faith. This deeply concerns The biblical vision of the age to come should be restored and branded on the consciousness of the church, and I believe rethinking hell is playing a key role in seeing that come to fruition.

I'm so grateful for the impact this ministry has had in my own life, and I pray for its work to grow, its message sharpened and its fruit multiplied the world over. Thanks so much to Chris and the team for letting me share. God bless. Well there you go. I found that very moving, uh very encouraging. Any thoughts on that before I read the next note of appreciation that we received?

That guy needs to be an actor. That was really good. Well I I completely I just this is William. I found um what he praised us for, um and thank you very much for that note, is something that we really strive uh for humility, um uh with a d a deep seeking for accuracy and what what he started out. So thank you. That is something we've really tried to do. Amen. That kind of that kind of um feedback encourages us no end. It's really um

speaking for myself, just uh it has such an impact. It it's such a reminder of why we why we're doing this. Um it's serving others and it's such a blessing. And it just spurs us on. You know, when you when you sort of you might be feeling a little bit uh you know, it's sort of affected by all the controversy. It's it's this sort of thing that we love to hear the most. And so thank you, Truman, and thank you to all all those who take the time to um give us this sort of feedback. It's so helpful.

Absolutely. All right, very good. Yeah, Truman thank you. I we really appreciate it. I I periodically receive feedback from people thanking me for the work that I'm doing and uh for those of you listening, just know that I take every one of those very seriously and to heart and it encourages me deeply.

As somebody that's reformed and very conservative, you can imagine that this is a view for which I catch some flack in the circles that I uh frequent. And um when I receive this kind of feedback it it encourages me greatly. So thank you as well.

for me. Um the other note of appreciation we received was in the form of a comment and on on the Facebook thread where we solicited this feedback. This from Jacob Arthur Stevens. He writes After reading a few books on the topic of conditionalism and traditionalism, I was confident that conditionalism was true, but was unable to provide an answer I felt was great regarding the three big proof texts of traditionalism.

In the Rethinking Hell podcast I heard several times the importance of apocalyptic imagery in Revelation and defining exactly what punishment is in Matthew, and now feel much more confident in my answers to those passages. I also grew just from watching and sometimes joining the discussions here on the Rethinking Hell Facebook group. The carefulness and insight I see displayed here at Exegesis I greatly appreciate as I grow and learn how to think better based on how others think here.

And I should add, the humility and yet also the confidence there's that p that uh dichotomy or that pair of things that we exhibit again. Uh that uh humility and yet also the confidence of the moderators and others here are an example to me of how to dialogue in all topics. And considering these discussions happen on the internet, I think the upstanding behavior of this group should be considered an extra big compliment.

One of the biggest ways these forums have uh helped me have been in understanding and responding to universalism. Having done no exhaustive reading on the topic, seeing positive arguments for it and responses to it, have helped me better appreciate God's zeal for his own glory and the means he has chosen to bring himself glory. Thank you all. I'm glad I can grow with you on this topic. So there you go. That was uh Jacob Arthur Stevens' feedback.

Thank you, Jacob. Uh I I do like the um particularly the the the discussion about how to respond to universalism. I think that's something that we uh continue to try to do. Um

and and will continue to try to do moving forward. Uh so let me turn to a few questions'cause I know that some of you have to leave here very shortly. Uh Glenn, for example, I think you need to leave in about ten minutes. So We'll get through as many of these in ten minutes as we can, but if you need to leave feel free to um say your farewell and and uh we'll wrap up when you're gone.

Um this next question is also from Todd Pollock. He asks, Is Preston Sprinkle officially a conditionalist? Well, this is a small clip that I extracted from a recent episode of Preston Sprinkle's podcast, Theology and the Raw. Uh I'll let Preston answer in his own words. I I believe in a view of hell that is often referred to as the annihilation view of hell, that when people face judgment and receive a neg negative verdict, they uh they die. The the wages of sin is death, I believe people will

I t you know, ultimately pass out of existence so that when we are in and and I I don't like to talk about our eternal existence in heaven because Revelation says heaven comes to earth and God establishes a new creation. So in our resurrected state where we're living in the new creation, um, I believe all evil, including evil people who have rejected God, will be will not exist anymore.

So that sounds an awful lot like he is a uh a hundred percent affirming conditionalism now and in a tweet in response to a um tweet that Rethinking Hell had sent He also said, I've um upon further Bible study, I've recognized and submitted to the overwhelming biblical support for conditional immortality. So it is nice. I'll just speak for myself. It is very encouraging to hear Preston finally um

comfortable affirming this you know, without a um you know, a caveat, you know, with it's not saying mostly convinced or whatever, but but fully convinced. That's awesome. It's such a huge blessing to have uh Preston in this um in this view and and making the argument, and so I look forward to seeing what sort of fruit will come from his participation in the debate.

Uh, Todd also wants to know though, are there any other celebrity he puts in quotes, pastors or evangelicals being actively pursued? Um, I don't know that we are, but can any of you guys think of any names that maybe we should be actively pursuing to see if we can uh change their minds? Oh change their minds as as to whether they'll speak with us or change their minds on hell. Yeah. Um

Yeah, a a fellow who who often comes to mind just because I know him personally is uh Doctor Christopher Marshall, who who taught me at Bible college and has since gone on to teach at the at uh Victoria University. Um He's an interesting fellow uh uh uh uh on a on a number of issues, most of which I disagree with him about, but he he's still a very interesting, very very likable, very ironic

uh Christian gentleman and scholar. He'll be he would be a a good guy to get on. Uh I know that um he would have been quite interested speaking at a recent conference, but I I'm not sure the reason. He simply wasn't able to. So um that's um and as he has some I I don't know what his quote unquote following is like, but I know that he's done a lot of of of widely recognized work on, say, um, restorative justice. So he's he's not he's certainly not an unknown.

One thing that I might suggest, well it's not it's not a specific name in uh in particular but a category, is I've noticed that a lot of people who do who have adopted the conditionalist view

are in the reformed theological position. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that. But for those of us who are not in the reformed theological position, it might be good to have uh some more ballots from the other side from more of an Arminian position, uh if there are some in particular that we think maybe on the fence or maybe persuadable or maybe

uh more amenable to the the discussion. You know Yeah, well Chris Marshall would be strong there. He's he's certainly not a Calvinist by any means. Well and it and it's funny that you say that, Chris, because I'm of I'm of the impression that reformed people are the minority amongst uh conditionalists and and at most maybe half of the Rethinking Hell team. Um and this is part of the reason why Len Pettis in our debate.

um asked for or said there are more more of you meaning Calvinists who are conditionalists. You know, um I I I I that that Um perspective of yours, Chris, is is just fascinating to me because I just don't get the impression that reform people are, you know, the the the majority, you know, in this movement. No, it's not a good thing.

It may simply be my bias because it may be my bias because I notice them uh when I run across them. They they may may be the mo they may be the loudest or the most uh labeling themselves. Who knows? Well I mean it also depends on which side of the Reformed family you're on too. So I mean in Reformed Baptist circles it's you're more I don't know, uh in the PCOSA a lot of my friends who are PC USA have no problem with annihilation.

Or even the PCI have a few friends and they're like, Yeah, that sounds a like a reasonable thing. So it really just depends on which side of the family you're on. Yeah. Um m maybe among reformed people, uh, it's not a huge big deal, but among those for whom it is a huge big deal A lot of them are reformed. Some of our some of our um I mean I I have as as you may know, I have I have a mixed background. Some of it is reformed and I'm I'm very friendly to to Reformed theology generally, but

the most obnoxious, unpleasant, v vociferous, malicious sometimes critics of our view are Reformed. Yeah. So it's an interesting maybe they're just really passionate people. Wasn't John Stott like Reformed or at least a Calvinist? Um well he w he obviously was an Anglican, which means he probably had no publicly stated views on Calvinism. We tend we tend to be a very, very uh careful bunch when it comes to that sort of thing.

Yeah. Yeah. Well i i for not to your chagrin, uh Chris, uh I will say that my co-author is also reformed and the systematic theology that we will be uh placing conditionalism in will be a distinctly reformed systematic, but we will also be saying w that in places where our non reformed brothers and sisters in Christ disagree with us, here's why we think conditionalism fits better as well. So hopefully um hopefully that will mitigate some of your concern, Chris.

You won't be taking the Jerry Walls approach. What what's the Jerry Walls approach again? No matter what you're talking about, uh mention the fact that Calvinism sucks. Right, exactly. Yeah. Oh nice. Yeah. Yeah, I tell Okay, well those are some good um

Uh some good thoughts. Uh another question that Todd has for us is what is it that we as the Rethinking Hell team need or want? from fans of the ministry. I I mean we've already talked about how valuable the encouragement is to all of us and I would just invite Todd and others to continue to provide that. But anything else that you guys can think of?

We have a donate out button, don't we? We do yes, we do have a donate uh button. If you go to the top of the Rethinking Hell website and put your mouse on the about button, one of the options in the context menu there is donate and we very much Y you know, w the a lot of money goes into our conferences and I don't think that we've made money on a single one of them.

Um, you know, money goes into hosting the website and a number of other things. So if anybody can um f feels m moved by the Lord to contribute in some small or maybe not so small way one time or monthly, please do go to that donate page. Good so thank you thank you for mentioning that, Graham. You know what I would like to see happening in in perhaps the blog, maybe in our podcast interviews and and and in the movement more generally. And I was reminded of this by a talk that uh Peter Rice gave.

Uh you presented on behalf of somebody else at our recent conference. And I would actually close your ears, Chris, I would like to hear more Catholic voices in this conversation. Um number one, because there are some Catholic scholars who are perhaps surprisingly sympathetic to our view as we discovered or or were reminded when when Peter presented that guy's paper. I say that guy, I'm terrible. I've got a book about this that I haven't picked up and read yet. Uh Father Robert Wilde.

There we go. What what an awesome name, Wild. Um he very much is a wild Catholic, um um bucking the trend. And it is obviously a trend not to be a conditionalist if you're a Catholic, but but they do exist. And the reason I would like to see this happen is number one Uh we are an ecumenical movement. We are not specifically a Protestant movement, even though I I'm obviously not Roman Catholic.

Uh, number two, there are heaps of Catholics in the world and it would be really great if they s if some of them started affirming and teaching conditional immortality because it's the truth. Um so I I yeah, it's something that I would really like to see happen.

Uh I mean how how did you how did you get hold of that paper, uh Peter? Would you would you reach out to I mean, maybe this is sort of a behind the scenes talk, but there are people we now know of to whom we could potentially reach out and say, Hey yo, maybe you wanna come and talk about this?

Yes, we we definitely want to follow up with him and um Edward Futch endorsed uh Father Bob's book on the back cover and kind of said something along the lines of what you're saying, Glenn, sort of welcomed him. uh and Catholics to the conversation. Um and it's it's just interesting enough to us Protestants I think to explore it and um to continu continue to find out about it. Um and it's

As you say, I mean th there are even there's a case to be made that some Catholics at least are part of evangelicalism. Um I've seen that absolutely various group various groups include make that distinction, so why not? And I would e I would echo that as well, Gwen, and extend that to orthodox as well. I know that I'm a lot more amenable to orthodoxy than than some are. That's something I've made quite a study of.

And I know that there are voices within that movement and within that tradition uh that I believe would be very helpful in this discussion, particularly with their typical grasp of church history and historical theological knowledge. I think that that would be a a wonderful arm to extend. Good thought. Uh Glenn, I think you've got to go here in a minute, is that right?

I do have to go. Yes, time is now short. So I will uh bid you all farewell. One hundred episodes, man. I mean I I'm I'm a podcaster from from kind of way back. I've I've fizzled out a bit now, but not officially.

Um, I may go back to it. But a hundred episodes is is quite an achievement. That's that's some real staying power there. Uh obviously we have a lot to say and there is enough interest in the subject from people to come and talk to us about it. And I I don't I don't see that changing in the near future, which is which is pretty cool.

Well, I know that uh I'm sure our listeners will echo the sentiment I'm about to express, but I I certainly look forward to hearing your voice in more episodes of the podcast moving forward. So thank you for what I'm sure will be some great episodes in the future, and thank you also for joining us tonight, Glenn. It's a privilege and a pleasure as always. See you Chris and see you guys. I will speak with you more. Take carefully.

Continuing to um answer Todd's question about what we as the team need from from fans of the ministry, I'll I'll say um uh uh some some thoughts that just came to me are suggestions for topics and passages and, you know, a variety of s suggestions for what they need from us because a lot of what we do is uh answer questions and address topics that that are that that have come up in our own experiences. But there are certainly

questions that people have that we maybe haven't even thought of. Um and we'd love to hear from you fans with those questions so we can help address them uh as time permits. Another thing that occurs to me is Um, there's a lot of discussion in on Twitter and in Facebook, uh, where this topic comes up and I know and I'm so grateful that um

uh that fans of the ministry are taking what they've learned from our podcast and putting it into practice, arguing the topic uh in these forums. But another thing that might be useful in those kinds of um conversations is to include a link either to uh a a an article on Rethinking Hell or a podcast episode or even the Rethinking Hell Facebook page. Um so that, you know

get the get the exposure of the ministry out there. Um so those are just two thoughts that came to my head. Uh any other thoughts from you guys as far as um things that we could use from our our our fans and listeners and stuff. You know, I think a great opportunity that a lot of our listeners could do is potentially give us an even wider audience.

by providing opportunities either in person or via Skype or something like that to speak to groups where they're at or that they're influential in because we can only reach so many. We've got our conferences of course But can you imagine if so and so at a at a university or a church or a pastor's organization said, Hey, I've got these guys who can speak to us via Skype on this topic.

that could really be be a huge uh benefit to the ministry as a whole. Or even small. That's a great idea. Yeah, or or or even small home groups. You know, if if a if a group of ten people at a church are are about to under embark upon a study of uh hell or or or something like that, the afterlife, the eternal state. Um you know, w I'm sure with the number of people on this team that that are passionate about it, I'm sure one of us would love to uh speak over Skype to your small group.

That's an excellent idea. Thank you for voicing that. Anybody else? Yep. Oh, go ahead, Mark. Were you about to say something? No, I was just gonna agree. I think that's a great idea and um Yeah. The type of things you've been saying. You know, they don't have to be a um Uh not everybody is gifted to argue and to explain, uh but they could put links on their Facebook page and uh they could say, Hey, here's something I read, it sounds interesting, it sounds good, uh it might be worth looking at

Uh because there's a lot of people still uh who haven't even heard about conditional immortality and have heard uh extremely little about annihilationism and the little they've heard is not very helpful. Yeah. Good.

Uh one one thing, Chris, that um hasn't been mentioned but probably uh should be is that we can always use prayer. Oh yeah. Uh And and particularly, I mean, I know it at least to my knowledge, none of us really get paid for this. Um we're all we're all volunteers. Um some of us contribute a lot more than than others, but I know all of us we do this on you know on our free time because we feel that it's important.

Um and and some of it uh some of us bear some pretty nasty slings and arrows uh in the public eye and um That that takes some prayer and and knowing that people are praying for us and and that we have advocates out there is a good thing. And also I know for For you especially, Chris, I know you're you're going into additional schooling, uh as well as, you know, keeping the podcast up and doing all that and traveling cross country and internationally.

Um, there's a lot of stuff. I mean, we we have an exciting ministry and we're able to do a lot of stuff, but um that can come with the natural stresses of uh having extra things to manage, especially when um we're not necessarily

financially compensated for all the that we do. It's really it truly is a labor of love and um having our brothers and sisters in Christ really lifting us up and praying for success and the reach and uh capacity of this ministry to continue to have influence be uh greatly, greatly appreciated by our viewers.

Very much so and in that prayer in that prayer one thing important to remember is that the slings and arrows that some of us often face aren't simply in the public eye or in public debates or in scathing papers. but amongst our own friends and families and ministry teams and pastors. Uh that's that's an important thing to remember. Uh a and I try to remember that as I'm praying for the team.

is that we are often, you know, uh no profit welcome in their hometown uh type of a situation. So that's something to remember as you pray for us that oftentimes even in our own families, even in our own homes we may have those who disagree vehemently with us. Uh and that's something that we could definitely use support on. For sure. Did I hear somebody say that we should have live events online that people could join?

I I think that's a great idea. Um you know, I think there was some time ago uh w we had a Google Hangout for um uh you know, a small number of people that had expressed interest in joining us. And one of the things that we talked about possibly doing was, you know, once every couple of months doing some sort of a

uh uh some sort of a live Google Hangouts or Facebook Live or something like that where people could ask um ask us questions. I think that's a great idea, having that kind of thing periodically. Um will make people I think feel a little bit more involved in the discussion and a little bit more part of the community, stuff like that. So I think that's a great a great example. Except let's not use Google Hangouts, but something more like Skype that has a better um throughput.

I hey, I I'm not uh in any way endorsing uh Google Hangouts. I've had better success generally speaking with Skype, so I h I hear what you're saying. But there is a limit. Uh I I th the the greater the number of people, Skype sometimes seems to struggle with, whereas Google Hangouts might be a little better designed for that. Well we might could do a webinar with um something like Zoom if we wanna get something a little more professional and uh scalable.

Well guys, I've taken up a little over an hour and a half of your time. Um I had other questions prepared that I thought uh I would ask us, but but in the interest of time, maybe um You know, I'll

In c I'll send a link to all of you guys, uh to the place where people ask some of the remaining questions so you can answer them yourselves. But are there any other final thoughts that any of you would like to share that maybe you've m wanted to chime in on but haven't had a chance to speak yet? Uh I'd I'd love for um Yeah, you know, any of you to share any of those thoughts before we wrap things up?

I've got a thought. Um, I think it was triggered by Joseph. He does that. He triggers me a lot into thinking things through. Yeah, I do. He um yeah, you do.'Cause you've done a lot of work on revelation and and I haven't, that's my exegetical weakness. But um A aside from theology what we were talking about would you know, um uh explaining how and relating conditionalism to to broader theological

uh categories. I I'm I'm passionate with exegesis uh and and probably just as much um understanding how each individual um book in the Bible ha speaks for itself. So I'm currently working on Matthew. And I think I think there's opportunities that go in those directions, not just to not just to win a debate, but really educate people about um

how to look at the Bible, how to understand it. Um if we're serious about being evangelicals which say, you know, like Bible first, um I think we've got to get beyond this proof text kind of uh a way of of relating where, you know, we start talking about one text, oh, here's my proof text. Um, I like discussions that that talk about the whole of gen um sorry, not I'm gonna say Genesis, I meant revelation, how it works, how the beast is is developed as an imagery there.

Um and so forth. So for me, if you ask me the question about what we could do in the future, I I I think we could have um uh some focus in w in whatever forum, whether it's a podcast, um I could write some stuff for the for the um for the the rethinking hell or or things like that. So that's just my thoughts for the future. Yeah, very good. Thanks.

Yeah, the thoughts for the when I thoughts for the future, what there's uh one thing that I'm really grateful to see developing and that is the regional groups that have been forming. Uh so if you're listening to this and and uh you don't know any conditionalists in your neighborhood, come on over, look look us up on Facebook, look up our website, um and

Ask about a regional group in your area. We may we may have some people in your area or just possibly you might help us start up a group in your area. Um this is kind of new, but it's a really neat direction to start developing. Yeah, I'll just uh yeah, no, I totally agree with you and I was just gonna let listeners know that if they go to the Rethinking Hell Facebook discussion group

Um and if you just go to Facebook uh and search for Rethinking Hell you'll find it. At the top of the group there should be a list of the regional chapters that have been started so far. Uh so you can find the one in which you belong and and request to join the group and the moderators of that group will add you and Uh yeah, I I think you're absolutely right, William. I think that's a great development and I'd like to see other people continue uh to start local chapters.

And of course I I have to thank the people who have just done so amazingly much to promo each promote their own group. That's really exciting to see this uh kind of spread and become more personal.

Um but another thing I'd like to um mention is I'm really glad to see us as we're as we're starting to gear up um looking at universalist arguments. Um We we had a wonderful conference and we got to hear hear from and discuss Universalism. Uh we gotta hear from Universalists and discuss their views of universalism, provide some rebuttals. And I really am looking forward to engaging that um more. I think that's something we must develop much more strongly than we have in the past.

Um so this is not something so much that we're doing, but it's something that we are strengthening. Given that I'm the the new one on the call here, my inaugural podcast, I just wanted to thank everybody who's been working on Rethinking Hell for so long for the part that you played in my study uh of what was a terrifying doctrine for me to study.

Uh and I came around to it with a lot of hesitation, a lot of trepidation. And I just wanna thank you all for the work you've done and what you've uh brought me to the team. And uh just wanted to say thank you for that to everybody uh that's been with Rethinking Health since the beginning. Well, we're uh blessed to have you join the team, Chris. So the thanks the thanks are reciprocated. Uh be be certain of that.

Guys, it's been again, I just want to reiterate what I said at the beginning of this recording. Um it's continues to be an incredible honor and blessing to me to be able to work with you guys. um i in in in ministry. It really is a ministry. I I hear from people all the time whose lives we're impacting. Um and I hope that you guys um uh you know, find encouragement n uh knowing that we are changing people's lives for the better as much as we

catch flack um from a variety of circles. Uh so thank you for partnering in me uh with me in in that effort. It's been a blast. I've really enjoyed it. I'm I'm so so honored to work with you guys and uh I'm really looking forward to the next hundred episodes, should the Lord um bless us with that opportunity. And um thank you guys for all joining me tonight. Hey Matt. Thank you, Chris. Thank you guys. You're welcome. My time is worth plenty, so you're welcome. All right. Well um

review episodes uh you know, reviewing Hell Under Fire. I look forward to talking to you next time we sit down to record. And uh all of you listeners, uh everything that we're doing, the podcast, the conferences, the blog, none of it would be possible if it weren't for you. So thank you for listening to this hundredth episode. I hope that you've enjoyed it.

Um and I hope that uh you're as excited as we are for what the Lord has in store uh for Rethinking Hell and for the Conditionalist movement um you know, in the next hundred episodes and in the next few years. Uh thank you for for joining us tonight. And um if if you guys don't mind me ending the recording on a really terrible pun, listen Uh have a good night, everybody.

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