31 - Qu - Restaurants Reinvented - Brandon Rhoten - Flattened
Jen Kern: [00:00:00] Good afternoon, everyone. This is Jen Kern. Welcome back to restaurants reinvented. So thrilled that you're here with us today. And I have a very special guest. His name is Brandon Rowden and he's the CMO at Potbelly. Welcome Brandon.
[00:00:39] Brandon Rhoten: [00:00:39] Thank you. Good to be here, Jennifer.
[00:00:40] Jen Kern: [00:00:40] I hope I pronounce your last name, right?
[00:00:42] Brandon Rhoten: [00:00:42] You did. You did.
[00:00:44] Jen Kern: [00:00:44] I want to get off on the wrong foot there.
[00:00:46] Okay. And you're in Chicago, right?
[00:00:49] Brandon Rhoten: [00:00:49] Yup. Yup. In the suburbs of Chicago for now Cove it's happening, but yes, in Chicago,
[00:00:54] Jen Kern: [00:00:54] How are things over there?
[00:00:55] Brandon Rhoten: [00:00:55] they're good. They're good. I mean, obviously we rely on the train system pretty, heavily here. And since COVID started, not a whole lot of folks are going into town the way they used to. So a little crazy, but, everybody's holding up and doing well, just like everywhere else in the country.
[00:01:07] Jen Kern: [00:01:07] Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm really excited to, hear your background and what led you to. Pat Valley and what you're up to today. So if you can give our listeners some background in terms of your experience working, I know you've worked at some really marquee brands and done some amazing stuff in the industry.
[00:01:22] Can you give us a little of your journey story, and then what brought you to Potbelly?
[00:01:27] Brandon Rhoten: [00:01:27] Sure. So starting on the agency side, actually working for a lot of tech and B2B companies, and somehow found my way into restaurants. I think more restaurants found me, in the early 2010s. not a lot of brands are really good at digital marketing. And when do you use was, burn our new CEO and was, getting ready to.
[00:01:43] you know, have a forthright turnaround. And part of that was to bring in a digital marketing arm to the organization. And that was me. So I was brought on to build digital social there very quickly, that sort of took off and started to see. And the brand led to me running all, outbound, consumer communication.
[00:01:58] So media and advertising and creative and digital and social and all that stuff, had about a six year run there where. we went from, almost a decade of negative traffic to positive. I think they just hit their 29th or 30th quarter of positive growth since then. So great story there to turn around and also, you know, make a brand kind of cool again where, Wendy's got to do its thing in digital and social.
[00:02:22] And I, got to build that team. So that was really, really cool. That led me to.
[00:02:25] Jen Kern: [00:02:25] I got to ask before you continue. So where did, so you say you started on the agency side, but, so I was, I remember 2010, right? I was very involved in, building some digital marketing strategies then. And, where did you learn your digital skills?
[00:02:40] Brandon Rhoten: [00:02:40] Yeah. So I kind of was that guy who just played with it on my own. And we had a lot of clients asking for digital marketing and our agency, Was actually really good at sort of thought leadership and positioning work and campaign work, but really didn't have a digital component. So what they asked me to, Hey, can you do your best to figure this thing out and then start working with clients and it sort of snowballed.
[00:03:01] So I have no formal training in digital marketing at all. I got into college before, that was a thing which you could actually learn in college. So it was really a trial and error sort of thing. That started with doing a web based video broadcast before YouTube existed and then led to doing interactive webinars before WebEx and Zoom.
[00:03:20] And all these companies existed where you were just forcing your way through the internet by streaming things.
[00:03:25] Jen Kern: [00:03:25] Yup, I remember that very well.
[00:03:26] Brandon Rhoten: [00:03:26] And then, you know, there's Twitter and Facebook and things like that started to emerge, I was the 20 something in the room that, that always was the first to play and test.
[00:03:34] So it became sort of the default for me. And I ended up running digital social for the agency in North America, or just because I was willing to play and learn. so yeah, I kind of just fell in it, frankly. And in the early 2010s, you know, I went to work for Wendy's at 2011. No restaurant brands weren't doing hardly anything and digital social, you know, Dell and, a few others.
[00:03:55] We're, heavy in it, but folks like Wendy's had no idea what was going on here. And it wasn't even digital media. It was just literally like basic digital things, like have a decent website that connected back into your media buys and actually have a presence in social platforms. So I'm not sure I'm answering your questions, but the basics is I just kind of played to figure it out.
[00:04:15] Yeah, that's fantastic. And it's such a good time. Cause 2010 was really when everything was exploding,
[00:04:19] Oh, yeah, it was awesome. It was awesome.
[00:04:21] Jen Kern: [00:04:21] Cool right place, right time.
[00:04:23] Brandon Rhoten: [00:04:23] Take it when you can get it right.
[00:04:25] Jen Kern: [00:04:25] Yeah.
[00:04:26] Brandon Rhoten: [00:04:26] So after, you know, the run on Wendy's and, doing pretty well there and seeing that brand, sort of get back on its feet and start to grow again, I left at about quarter 17 or 18 of a positive comp, was recruited by Papa John's to run their marketing. I see them over there.
[00:04:40] My, task first was to digital ties their world. You know, most of Papa John's was running through a 80 plus percent was running through the app and the website, and they were sort of acting like a brick and mortar company. So my first job was to convert over to a more of a digital focus for media, for any communication, just to make sure you can click the buy. And then it was to actually work on positioning. And I was there a short time because as I started working on positioning, it became really clear. The company had a lot of work to do to figure out what it wanted to be. This is when, there were some issues with the board and, ownership and all this stuff.
[00:05:10] So I ended up actually being recruited by pot belly. Why was that? Papa John's and, came here because this was an opportunity to learn something totally different. I'd never built a menu from scratch. I'd never reworked a brand's positioning from scratch. Wendy's had a lot of history to kind of rely on pot belly really hadn't been in marker.
[00:05:27] So we're gonna kind of got the build from a retail location versus, communications that had existed previously and got to build out a marketing, sort of function, when there really wasn't one at all. So, been here for a couple of years now, first year was really research and testing.
[00:05:41] Which led to putting some things in play that we started to see some benefit from. And then unfortunately COVID did its thing. So we're a bit in a holding pattern right now, but have made some serious changes that have brought back 50 of the points that COVID stole from us. So, so making good progress from about two years in here in, converting Potbelly over to a, brand that actually does marketing.
[00:06:01] Jen Kern: [00:06:01] Okay, great. So it sounds like you specialize in coming in and really making an impact and turning around brands and financial revenue.
[00:06:12] Brandon Rhoten: [00:06:12] Yeah, nine times out of 10, it's a brand that's losing traffic and wants to kind of figure out the levers to pull in traffic. And then ultimately, usually the road is digitization. Usually the road is focusing on a new target. oftentimes, that results in making a lot of structural changes to the way we buy our media and the way we build our creative and sometimes our positioning and sometimes our menu.
[00:06:34] But yeah, usually they pull me in when things have been rough for four or five years and more often than not, we've been able to figure out a road that get traffic back.
[00:06:41] Jen Kern: [00:06:41] Yeah, well, gosh, what a great career. I mean, you've worked at some really big brands. I so nostalgic thinking about Wendy's I remember going to Wendy's as a kid, you know, biggie, it was like the best thing ever.
[00:06:55] Brandon Rhoten: [00:06:55] Nothing wrong with a frosty. I tell you what that makes life a little bit better. Doesn't it?
[00:06:58] Jen Kern: [00:06:58] Like I remember when Wendy's started, you know, the whole like Pippi Longstock-looking, you know, Wendy's and I was like, yeah, I wanna go there mom, you know
[00:07:08] Brandon Rhoten: [00:07:08] And I'll tell you that part of the reason that drew me to that brand a big part of the reason was, you know, I love to brands. I love, I love the fact that. Brands and commoditized spaces find ways to break out. and that was a brand that, you read about it in college. When you talk about marketing, you talk about where's the beef and Dave Thomas being, you know, one of the longest serving spokespeople in the history of a brand.
[00:07:29] I think he still is actually and in 2010 Wendy's wasn't cool anymore. it was making kids fat and it was. I just this part of this commodity thing of 99 cent menu. And, it was actually kind of sad when I first joined. I vividly remember having a conversation with Wendy. Wendy Thomas is a real person.
[00:07:45] She's a franchisee and talking to Wendy and her comment was people just don't pay attention to our marketing anymore. We need to fix that. And that's the work my team got to do with the repositioning, with actually focusing on a younger target. Using digital social as a primary mechanism to do that.
[00:08:02] Re-establishing the challenger sort of mentality of the brand and then using effective modern marketing approaches. You know, when I first started there almost all the money was put into TV and it was LTO advertising, that's it? It was, here's a new thing. Here's a new thing. And none of it was really resonating and none of it was drawing traffic.
[00:08:20] So we changed things over to be a bit more about brand with a significant layer on challenger and, and using snarky when the online and fresh, never frozen beef or for a bit of an older crowd on TV. And then we use this performance layer underneath with four in play and, several other efforts that its purpose was to drive traffic.
[00:08:38] So. You know, that's the magic formula that I've always found works. And in restaurants anyways, is you have some layer that drives traffic that sort of speaks to the heart of, I should come in today and then you have a layer on top of it. That's all about building tail and brand affinity. you need both, if you don't have both, it doesn't work.
[00:08:55] fortunately we struck a really well there and insult success.
[00:08:58] Jen Kern: [00:08:58] That's awesome. And then Papa John's and for sounds like a short time and yeah, that's not a brand that I've favored it a lot, but, you know, it's done well a little bit lost, like you said, in terms of the, brand itself, the persona, and now Potbelly, which, you know, I told you in my, pre-show call. I also remember when Papa came on the scene, which I was a working young professional in DC, and they started popping up like all around and I've worked near the one in Tyson's for many years, and then near the one in Restin for many years.
[00:09:31] And just such a great vibe. Like I was thinking this morning driving and I was like, damn, I remember going over to pop LA walking over. We could walk over from the one and Tysons. And the line was like out the door and this was a big, this is a big restaurant, like lot of seats inside, a lot of seats outside, but a very busy professional community, a lot of office buildings and, very urban, even though it's kind of like.
[00:09:55] What do you call that? The excerpts, but not quite in this, urban, like, not quite in the suburbs either. and music playing you have, there would be people like someone playing like the guitar and singing and, it's just a little bit of a nicer experience to go, like during lunch, like for work.
[00:10:11] Right. And so I know you've talked about the brand and the positioning and. Repositioning the brand, because I did, hear on your clicks and bricks with, Rob and you were talking about how, when you got there, they had been in a decline. So I'd love to hear, and please, for our listeners share, are some of the things you did when you first came two years ago to Potbelly?
[00:10:32] and then we'll talk about like, what are you focusing on now?
[00:10:34] Brandon Rhoten: [00:10:34] Yeah. So, I mean, we're still, we're still working on the turnaround right now. You know, this is a brand that, you know, as I mentioned, hadn't really done any outbound communications. It was a great retail experience. You summed it up nicely. You go to a pot belly. It doesn't feel like any other sandwich joint, right.
[00:10:48] It doesn't feel at all like a subway or Jersey Mike's or a Jimmy John's or anything else. It's got its own sort of vibe and I would argue the magic in the brand especially years ago. Was owning that vibe. And in fact, the saying was good vibes, great sandwiches. Inside of the sandwich bag.
[00:11:02] What's happened over the last maybe eight or nine years is it's moved to be more of an LTO engine where it constantly has new products coming out. And that's what was essentially anything that was communicated to look like an LTO. and when I first came in, we did a lot of homework to figure out what's going on.
[00:11:18] We found out, why the brand was losing traffic. We found out pretty quickly, there were some operational opportunities. There was a menu opportunity, and frankly, there was a focus opportunity actually focus the brand and what we're good at and make it clear what we're good at. So a bunch of tests and kind of valleys and Hills aside.
[00:11:35] We ended up getting to the point where we put a new menu in play that that's actually focusing the brand and it is more serving the needs that exist out there. We started to produce creative that resonates more, and in platforms that it makes more sense and we've moved all of our creative of digital.
[00:11:50] For example, this isn't a brand that spends a lot of money on marketing. So focusing those dollars and using actually performance marketing. so building out the infrastructure to new third-party delivery bird, building out the infrastructure to do delivery. So you can actually have a click to buy sort of scenario has led us to start to see improvements.
[00:12:06] We had a trend improvement leading into COVID and, we didn't see a positive quarter yet. We were actually getting ready to bunch, our first positive quarter, Q1 of 2020, and then March happened and March sort of affected everyone. But, You know, our footprint is primarily, is heavily weighted towards, white collar workers, CBD sort of environments and things of that nature.
[00:12:24] And for that reason, when that traffic went away, we saw our traffic disappear. so we're, still in the process of building back. But we've got the right position. Now we've got the right, menu. That's going to go and play nationally in a not too distant future. we've got, the right marketing and media approach that's actually driving a direct return on that investment, which is going to lead to that traffic growth that we need.
[00:12:46] So everything sort of in play, we're just waiting for world to sort of get an order and be ready for us again, because we're not going to. We're not going to sell all those DC locations tomorrow. we know the traffic will come back. It just might take a little bit before we're totally back into play.
[00:12:59] Yeah. So, I mean, I think the gist of it is we did a lot of homework to figure out what was going on and that every time I started a brand, that's the first thing we do, you know, first six months is just do your homework, figure out what's going on, why the traffic is leaving. You. It's usually something pretty big, it's usually a, an operational issue or a value perception issue, or a awareness issue.
[00:13:17] Or it's, usually a 900 pound gorilla kind of thing. But then you need to spend a little time hacking at, to figure out how do you fix it? have yet not been pulled into an organization where it was a super easy fix. I'm waiting for that day. It'll be awesome when they just say, Oh no, it's just your taglines wrong
[00:13:30] I think you'd be bored. I think you'd be bored.
[00:13:32] I might be bored. But, that tweaking that, first, basically year, year and a half of just tweaking to figure out what's going on, that ultimately leads to, you know, I'm seeing this test so work, I'm seeing this effort work. I mean, it took us three years to get it four for four at Wendy's to figure out how to actually solve for that performance layer.
[00:13:50] And consistently driving traffic do that. So, did a lot of homework done a lot of testing, which led us to start to see improvements and we're ready to go. As soon as that vaccines in place, this is going to be really fun to
[00:14:00] Jen Kern: [00:14:00] pop.
[00:14:02] So, gosh, so many questions I want to ask you. So performance marketing. Okay. Like I get it, like I've heard the term, although it sounds almost like a little bit like. A double entendre.
[00:14:14] Brandon Rhoten: [00:14:14] All media should be performance media, but when you get down to it, what I mean, when I say that is actual, like click the buy marketing, this is like direct to consumer online. You are served an ad, you click, you spend money. So what I, yeah, what I want to see is I want to see a three or four to one, at least return on every dollar I put into my media.
[00:14:34] You can't see that through traditional, you run a TV ad and you're making assumptions based on reach. You're making assumptions based on a lift study that occurs three months after whatever and all that. Stuff's fine. I'd been done all that stuff, right. Doing a Nielsen lift study or Margaret dial apt.
[00:14:47] Whatever's great. but if you're, if your budget is really, really tight and you've got to solve a problem within months, not quarters, then you really need to do something that's super tight in and you can see a result in it immediately. So, all of my media right now, if you are served a Potbelly ad, you can buy something.
[00:15:04] You can actually get food delivered right now. And I learned that frankly, a Papa John's because that's what Papa John's should have been doing in the first place was nothing but click to buy because Papa John's is Amazon for pizza, right? Just like Domino's is. So when I say performance media, I mean, direct return on ad spend.
[00:15:21] I can tell you exactly how many dollars I'm going to give you back. If you give me a dollar.
[00:15:26] Jen Kern: [00:15:26] Okay.
[00:15:26] Brandon Rhoten: [00:15:26] And I have found that a lot of organizations want to start there because they want to understand , the inherent value of media and marketing. First, if they get that, there's a return, your window opens up really nicely to what else you can do as a brand.
[00:15:39] The brand building stuff usually comes right after proving. You can actually give a return.
[00:15:44] Jen Kern: [00:15:44] Right. And so what channels are working the best for you for your performance media, your media spend?
[00:15:50] Brandon Rhoten: [00:15:50] Yeah, primarily Facebook, using Google as a partner. They've obviously a lot of outlets there than ad service. They also have YouTube and a few others, but primarily Google and Facebook having said that I'm going to expand past that shortly. You know, who's got a self service platform right now, which is killer.
[00:16:05] You've got ad networks like crazy out there that you can tap into. and frankly, I'll end up going past, performance marketing in the, not too distant future because it can only, it maxes out at a certain point. You're going to lose efficiency past a certain spend level. So, but Google and Facebook are the primaries right now that I'm seeing the most success in.
[00:16:23] Jen Kern: [00:16:23] And here's something that's harder to measure. I mean, what impact. And I'm trying to think of what's the right way to ask this. How important is the brand, your positioning, your creative, that you're putting forth in these ads to getting those conversions
[00:16:42] Brandon Rhoten: [00:16:42] Yeah, it's critical. I think, yeah, you have a tighter box when you deliver through Facebook than you do when you're delivering, you know, a television ad or whatever your production expectations are lower, but it is really important. So, you know, I mentioned before, I think you have to have two layers.
[00:16:57] You have to have that positioning that's unique, that fulfills specific functional, emotional societal needs that individuals have that are seeking a brand like yours. And then on top of it, it has to be delivered to the right person at the right time with the right call to action. So it's critical. And I would argue the value of just brand acts things beyond the performance.
[00:17:18] Marketing is huge. You know, my team does at least once a quarter, we do some effort that it's only intention is to get pressed that's when ad week grad age or whatever will cover us because we do something that's interesting, but it has no row as tied to it. It's purely just reflect position at scale in a way.
[00:17:35] That's interesting. So the short answer to your question is it's absolutely critical if you don't have your positioning nailed. If you don't know what your brand's voices. You can't produce an ad. That's going to actually build anything past the single click and it may not even get you the single click.
[00:17:49] so I think you need it. It doesn't mean it's to be perfect. You're going to iterate your way to get there, but it's essential
[00:17:54] Jen Kern: [00:17:54] Just in case our listeners aren't familiar with the term. ROAS because it's a newer return on actual spend
[00:18:00] Brandon Rhoten: [00:18:00] Ad Spend
[00:18:01] Jen Kern: [00:18:01] Ad spend. Okay. Return on ad spend. Got it.
[00:18:04] Brandon Rhoten: [00:18:04] usually it's a hard media, a return. So you got ROI for your net marketing budget, and then you have ROAS for your actual media budget. And typically for most restaurants, anyways, you need at least a three to one, maybe two and a half to one to break even just because of flow-through.
[00:18:19] Price is a hundred percent flow through traffic is around 50% flow through for most, restaurant brands. So typically you're looking at two and a half to three to be profitable on that single transaction. Okay, so I gone for three and a half to four, for my
[00:18:32] Jen Kern: [00:18:32] Wow. Wow. And you mentioned four by four earlier.
[00:18:36] Brandon Rhoten: [00:18:36] Yeah. So that was our, you know, four, for, four was our traffic driving, effort at Wendy's. I think every brand needs a traffic driving effort, then they need a brand driving effort. So, at least restaurants and most retailers need something that draws immediate traffic, and then they need something that creates affinity.
[00:18:53] And four, for, four was our, effort there. We've got a few things in play right now to figure out what our traffic driver is for popularly. Cause it's not always value. it can be something else. it can be family time around the table. It can be whatever you, whatever works, which has got to work.
[00:19:06] Jen Kern: [00:19:06] Right. Right. So back to like these ads that you're driving for conversion, And having people actually purchase, which is awesome to get there. I think that's sort of like, you know, what all the marketers are shooting for. Right. And so you've got several things that play into that. Of course, you've got what we're talking about, the brand and the position.
[00:19:26] And like you said, the voice. So what voice are you using and what is, your brand persona at this point?
[00:19:33] Brandon Rhoten: [00:19:33] Yeah. So, so this is a really important decision that every brand has to make. are they, and, you know, at, Wendy's, it was pretty easy. Cause I got to dig through the one, not easy, but it was, easier because we got to dig through history and say, well, this is what we sounded like when we did.
[00:19:47] Where's the beef and this is what we sounded like with Dave on television. So we were challenged with charm. At Wendy's and our whole thing was challenged the industry to be better and, challenge ourselves and in our customers to, to be better. so Wendy's, it was really easy here. It was a little different at Potbelly.
[00:20:02] We had to dig through what worked in a retail environment, but what might work from a communication standpoint and what we're actually finding is there's really two aspects to our personality. That really matter one is, good vibes. So, you know, most restaurant brands don't go emotional.
[00:20:17] They go very functional. They say fresh or something like that. so there's a white space there and good vibes. Great sandwiches is the, slogan sort of on the side of the bag, but good vibes is the, is primary driver pass that there's another layer though. And I think every brand voice needs tension without tension.
[00:20:33] You can't tell stories, you know, that's where a challenger comes in with challenger with charm at Wendy's. So, there's a really interesting aspect of this shot of this place. It's actually on all the restaurants, there's an air carrier that looks like a summary. And on it, it says first class dive.
[00:20:49] So we are, good vibes, great sandwiches. And a first-class dive, first-class dive all by itself is really rich for creative territory. So we're not going to advertise in a way that feels corporate. We're not going to advertise in a way that feels like a big corporation would, we're going to sound like the dive down the street that, is local and interesting.
[00:21:11] So we're going to worry about the catchphrase and the t-shirt. We're going to worry about the line we use that gets you there. We're not going to capitalize. We're not going to check our grammar. We're not going to, it's going to feel like it was written by the guy you like at the bar down the road.
[00:21:26] And his job is to give you good vibes. so that's our personality is this local proprietor of a sub shop of a sandwich shop. That is just all about good vibes. You walk in, you walk out feeling happier because you got good vibes from pop belly. so we're still working on the articulation of that.
[00:21:44] Like what are the, what's the caricature. At Wendy's. For example, we used Chris Pratt from gardens of the galaxies or character. We had cut out zoom all over the place in my, marketing department. here, we're still working on what that character is, but we're starting to play around with like Nick Offerman, like the guy, not Parks and Rec, as a potential outlet or Bill Murray, actually as a potential outlet, like real and funny and interesting.
[00:22:07] Somebody you wanna have a beer with. And hang out with, but also doesn't feel like they're pretentious. You could wear jeans when you're hanging out with them
[00:22:13] Jen Kern: [00:22:13] Hmm good vibes. I like it. Good vibes, local dive.
[00:22:17] Brandon Rhoten: [00:22:17] That's right. That's exactly right. So we think there's something there that doesn't feel any, and, we're looking for is what's the anti subway, frankly.
[00:22:23] And because that's not what we are. We're not about, gut-feel, we're not about $5 footlongs. We're about, you know, a place you actually want to go and take people to and be excited to go to that excitement that was in your voice when you talked about going to Potbelly in DC is exactly what, when people who've never been there to feel a touch of.
[00:22:41] So they want to show up.
[00:22:42] Jen Kern: [00:22:42] Yeah. Yeah. So fast forward to the pandemic. And you know, I know, again, we're talking about the vibes, right? the experience .
[00:22:51] I kind of have a two-part question for you. One is, How do you translate that experience off premise? Right? Cause it's very difficult. and then I think, well, let's just start with that one.
[00:23:01] Let's start with that one.
[00:23:02] Brandon Rhoten: [00:23:02] Sure. so I think, you're right. It is difficult, offsite, because you don't think about your local dive or your, first-class dive. If you take it to the level, we want to take it. and you don't think necessarily take out, you do think place places important to that. And I would argue places very important for Potbelly.
[00:23:17] Who've been in a popular, you know, places important to us. But we can make it somewhat portable. And when I say that, I mean like friends come in town and you order the pizza from the local joint down the street, it's still the pizza from the local joint down the street. It just it's, you're not there.
[00:23:34] And it might feel a little better if you're there, but it still feels like something local, something unique, something interesting. We do it in part with product. Things like we have very special, giardiniera hot peppers. We have very special cookies that transport in a different way. we have actual hand dip shakes.
[00:23:51] It's not a group machine that kind of squirts out a shake like a lot of places have. So the products still feel like a local care and local attention was put into them. The packaging and the conversations that happen in the process of ordering and in the process of consuming the food feels local feels interesting, feels like there's a personality there.
[00:24:13] That's very different. in part though, what we have to do is rework some of our assets to make that happen. So what part of what the pandemic has done for us is accelerated. Some things that we planted to do is like a step two and a step three, where we were working our website, where we working our app, and we've got a new loyalty platform just growing like a weed, but we need a new app and we needed a new website and we need some new digital experiences that fully bring good vibes to life.
[00:24:37] So expect in 2021, all that stuff to start coming live so we can fully deliver the experience regardless of how you reach the brand.
[00:24:45] All right. And so what is your top ordering channel right now? How are guests getting the food mainly from you?
[00:24:52] Yeah, so pre pandemic, it was 70% dine-in and now it's around 60% takeout and delivery. So the bulk is off premise now. and like right now we have a hundred plus shops just in the Chicago area and all Illinois is shut down for dining in, so we don't have a choice there, but, but yeah, the majority is off premise at the moment.
[00:25:13] Jen Kern: [00:25:13] Right. And how many delivery partners do you work with?
[00:25:16] Brandon Rhoten: [00:25:16] So we work with, Grub Hub, all the big guys, GrubHub, DoorDash, Uber eats Postmates. And we actually just brought those folks online early last year. So, we, weren't really confident that we wanted to work with those folks. We did our own delivery, but we quickly realized we weren't as good as it as they are.
[00:25:32] and coming from Papa, John's where we had literally thousands and thousands of delivery drivers. I was a big proponent of, Hey, we're not going to get good at this quick. So let's figure out how to. How to make that work. But yeah, we do work with all the major players in, delivery.
[00:25:45] Jen Kern: [00:25:45] Okay. Okay. And curbside pickup is going strong for you as well. I would assume
[00:25:49] Brandon Rhoten: [00:25:49] It is , we have a lot of locations, you can't do it. So you know, a CBD spot or somewhere that's, you know, in a mall or something like that, that you can't pull it off. But we do, see heavy use of curbside pickup. we don't have a lot of drive-throughs, which has really hampered us in this, you know, our drive through shops are up double digits.
[00:26:06] They're kicking butt. but if you don't have a drive-through, you have a huge weight around your neck in this thing. so we've used curbside as a way to, help a bit in those shops that don't have drive-throughs.
[00:26:16] Jen Kern: [00:26:16] Okay. So we've touched on, digital and some of the strategies that you're starting to roll out and planning to roll out in 2021. Can you give our listeners an idea of your digital transformation approach and your plan and exactly what you're focused on there?
[00:26:33] Brandon Rhoten: [00:26:33] Yeah. So, you know, when I started a brand that people will make the assumption that the first thing I'm going to do is like hire a giant social media team or whatever. Cause that's, that was the play at Wendy's was to build out digital social there and, get known there. But frankly, I'm, a bit agnostic on channel.
[00:26:47] So for me, it all boils down to where's the problems let's solve the problems and. As far as digital goes, the issues we had essentially were distribution. We didn't have third-party delivery partners. So we had to get that online. We, our website, our email infrastructure, our CRM infrastructure, our app needed a lot of work.
[00:27:06] So we've done. What we can with the platforms that are in play, but we have, we have new platforms getting ready to go online that have a much better capability sets. So we converted a lot of our backend stuff. a lot of plumbing, frankly, the start here just to get this stuff working like it should. and so it doesn't go down in the middle of lunch, which was happening on a regular basis when we first started.
[00:27:28] And then we move on to digital media because that's where I can get a direct return. So that creates an internal culture of media is good, but you want, because more media means more impact from a branding perspective. Once we nail the media is good, which we're past that now.
[00:27:44] Then we started to actually build out an infrastructure. So at this point, we're reworking the positioning across digital assets. You're going to see us go online with some, heavier social stuff and influencer stuff later in the year, which we tested last year, but we'll go online. and then a website app, things like that will go online.
[00:27:59] So, there was a lot of heavy lifting to do, when joining this particular brand, just because the piping needed to be reworked before we really got into anything else.
[00:28:07] Jen Kern: [00:28:07] Right. So using that many delivery partners and having the curbside, and obviously you've got in store channels. Are you able to tie the data together? And it's difficult. Like. It's not a yes or no question really, but, how are you tying the data together and getting that view of the guest and then, you know, operating over on the digital media channels, you're probably getting different data over there, right?
[00:28:32] From those ads that tells you a lot, probably tells you a lot more about the guests. So how are you marrying up some of the on-prem off-prem data to get to understand the guests better?
[00:28:42] Brandon Rhoten: [00:28:42] Yeah, we're just, actually starting to get okay at that. And I say, okay. I mean, barely, okay. you know, we were in a position where. First, we just needed to find the problems. Once we found the problems, figuring out the solutions to solve the individual little areas, the silos of issues. Now we're actually starting to pull it all together and say, well, what actually is, the net effect of something.
[00:29:01] So actually find, unless you're going to spend a bunch of money and hire a bunch of people and some organizations can do that. Smaller organizations, I would argue can't tying it all together is near impossible without. Uniform systems without a team that can do analysis without dedicated resources, basically, and common systems.
[00:29:21] So I actually find there'd be a bit more value and instead having one-off interview jewel test, so you can learn about the impact of one, one kind of message or one piece of media or whatever, and then actually doing net market lift studies. Once you actually get it all in place. So we work with apt or could market dial we'll work with Nielsen, someone of that nature that when we put something in play, we look for a net revenue lift because I think the smaller companies oftentimes make is they make the assumption.
[00:29:47] They're going to be able to actually dissect it a million different ways. And usually you can't. Usually what ends up happening is things play off each other, right? The fact that you have this great social moment tied to this media, that's been running tied to this product offering that just fits you get a market, you get a revenue lift off that, and you can't necessarily separate those things out and remove one of them and have the same impact.
[00:30:09] So, I'm kind of working around your question. The reason is I think it's really hard for a lot of smaller. Brick and mortar companies to actually tie everything together. So what you end up doing is you have to look at the business as a whole and say, what is causing revenue lift?
[00:30:23] What recipe of actions is causing revenue lift, which is the way we look at it. So we do market level studies to understand the revenue impact of something in play. And if we don't understand every detail of why it's working, that's okay. We know enough to know the recipe is right. If there's a pinch too much cinnamon in there it's okay.
[00:30:42] It still tastes good. So that's what matters.
[00:30:45] Jen Kern: [00:30:45] Alan McGee, who is the VP of marketing and technology at Church's chicken. He was on a couple of weeks ago and he said, I just really want to get like 40% or 50% of accurate data that I can act on immediately. Right. I'm not looking to get all the data. I thought that was such a good, like. Lesson message reminder, right?
[00:31:04] Like, cause we can try to chase down all the data, but at the end of the day, kind of like what you're saying is you just need a partial set of data that you can act on quickly, whether it's. On your digital channels or through these other, you know, Nielsen studies or whatnot but getting something that you can then do quick tests with like small tests and quick tests and get quick response and know being able to track that ROI.
[00:31:27] Like, it sounds like your various doing,
[00:31:29] That's
[00:31:29] Brandon Rhoten: [00:31:29] exactly right. I think it's funny because the difference between a small company in a big company, both end up in this paralysis state, because they don't feel like they have enough information to make a decision big companies it's usually because they have so much data. They don't know how to analyze it.
[00:31:43] Little companies it's they get almost no data. but you're still in the same exact position. You still have to make a decision based on what you know, and, that's why those little indicators of success matter. And then just to me, looking at the net effect, like a good example, there is, I often argue that mix is not as important as people say it is in restaurants.
[00:32:01] People talk about mix, like it's gold mixed. Doesn't go to the bank. You cannot cash mix. It doesn't work. If net sales go up and you have a product in play that you, that there's some indicator that it's part of the recipe, even if it's a small mix who cares, let it mix low. It's okay. As long as your net sales are improving, you know, the M series at BMW mix is really low, but it's really important for them.
[00:32:24] So think you have to look at things in aggregate and say, what is the net effect on the business? Are we seeing positive or negative trends? And you also have to look at trends because people get stuck in this idea that we're not positive. Comping. Who cares. Are you better in traffic than you were yesterday?
[00:32:40] Yes or no. Are you better in check than you were yesterday? Yes or no. Or is your more profitable than where you were yesterday? Yes or no, because these brands that are down on their butt for five or six years get so obsessed. we gotta do everything to get the positive comp, get to positive, calm don't act like if you're not there in the first act that you've lost, it takes time and these things build.
[00:33:02] So I think church's chicken sounds like they're exactly right to me.
[00:33:06] Jen Kern: [00:33:06] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. it's interesting because my background is all and tech and SAS companies I've worked for a bunch of SAS companies. And I wasn't familiar with the term comp, like I was like, why are they talking about cops, like what? Oh it's comparing, like the store is one against the other against it's like, It's all revenue at the end of the day, right?
[00:33:26] Like, are you profitable or you're not profitable? Like what's revenue doing, going up or going down? Yeah. Obviously there's a lot of more nuances in restaurants. Right. It's, it's a tough job. Right. but I liked the way that you're talking about and thinking about like there's a big picture to be had.
[00:33:43] and that's so key to remember at the end of the day, when we're managing so many different things and you, we haven't even gotten to talking about the menu yet because we've been talking a lot about the brand and then the digital infrastructure, the foundation, the strategies that you're using for marketing, but you're also managing menu innovation, I believe.
[00:33:59] Right? Yep. And where does that come into play in the whole equation, right? I mean, you did say about the PMX, like it's not all about the PMX. but I mean, I do think. You know, I know my taste patterns change a little bit. You want different things different times a year. I mean, there are new trends, but they've been around a while, right?
[00:34:17] Like Keto, gluten-free like some of that stuff, but what, do you do on the menu side to move the needle?
[00:34:25] Brandon Rhoten: [00:34:25] Yeah. So I think the most important thing on a menu side, and we do have a culinary sort of help here. So it's not just marketing that does the work, but I think the most important thing is you have to identify what consumers actually want. You identify the needs and are the needs big enough.
[00:34:37] They're actually going to move the business. So once in a while you throw a shiny thing in there, just to get attention, we did turn doc in. Last year at this time. And you know, no sandwich brand normally do to duck in, but Potbelly can pull it off because our stuff's better than most. so we were able to pull off, but when you get down to it, it's really about needs.
[00:34:52] Are you fulfilling big needs that further your position as a brand? I'm not going to run a, 12 inch sandwich for $4 because it's a big need, but it's not a need that might, that fits the positioning of my brand. Right. so it really boils down to what are the big needs needs that exist.
[00:35:10] And then you hand it to somebody knows what they're doing, a culinary expert that helps you develop products that fulfill those needs. And then once in a while you pepper in something shiny just to get attention just to get press, but you can't rely on those shiny things because they don't generally grow the business in a meaningful way.
[00:35:26] So, really it's about needs, but I approach all marketing that way, frankly, if there's not enough demand in a need, then what's the point of talking about it. What's the point of putting it in play? and this particular brand, the, the work we had to do really was to figure out, do we actually have the right offering.
[00:35:41] Based on the focus on toasted sandwiches, based on the menu creep that occurred over time and items like soups and all over the place in the menu. We had five menu boards in most of our shops, you know, I don't know many restaurants that have five menu boards for a good reason, because that's really confusing
[00:35:57] Jen Kern: [00:35:57] they always, they're very, like you said, they're always very cozy, like there's chops and they have like artistic designs. They're not like. I dunno, I don't have a big problem with digital menus, but there's something nice about that. Like you were saying, like that at home feel, that local dive, right.
[00:36:11] You walk in and it's like on a board and there's drawings and it's fun.
[00:36:16] Brandon Rhoten: [00:36:16] Yep. Yep. So, so the work we had to do really was focused the menu and pull away from this idea that we needed in an LTO every two or three months. And some brands need that, but. My experience has been, LTO pipeline becomes a replacement for actually meeting your consumer needs in some cases where instead of saying.
[00:36:36] To what do consumers really want out of your menu? What do they connect with you as a brand instead of just new becomes the only thing you ever say. And the truth is new is speaking primarily to people that already love your brand. And a lot of those people already have a favorite. So it's a pretty niche thing.
[00:36:52] It can be effective if done right, but it's, a very niche thing. So new LTS generally don't result in a whole lot of growth. No, it's different. If you're like Popeye's and you come out with a product that's just, hugely demand driven like a fried chicken sandwich and also a dramatic improvement from your previous product.
[00:37:10] But that's an exception. That's not an LTO. so really the work we've done is focused the menu, make it. So it's more understandable to people, especially new people and make it. So it's really clear what we're good at, and that is toasted premium sandwiches. So, you know, it's only in a handful of markets right now, and it's going to be expanding here shortly, but.
[00:37:27] We have huge promise in changing this. We're also tweaking some of the things like how much meat and cheese we put on a sandwich and some other variables that just the brand has an updated itself in a long time. And we're going to make that change. So we're more at home with consumers, what we don't chase and I give, especially the kind of new leadership at Chipola huge credit for this.
[00:37:47] We don't chase fads. So. Gluten-free is not that interesting to us and it's not because there's not a lot of people that would go gluten-free it's because it's a fad. It comes and goes and a lot of people may be into it for two years, but the truth is it doesn't necessarily result in the best premium, toasted sandwich.
[00:38:04] So if it doesn't work for the brand positioning, we don't chase it. Don't be looking for gluten-free from Potbelly for awhile, and I'm gonna get some nasty emails on that, every time I say that
[00:38:13] Jen Kern: [00:38:13] I like your salads, I think your salads are really good.
[00:38:15] Brandon Rhoten: [00:38:15] Those are gluten free. There you go.
[00:38:17] Jen Kern: [00:38:17] Yeah. You've got like the garbage salad. Is that what it's called?
[00:38:20] Brandon Rhoten: [00:38:20] There you go, there you go. There you go.
[00:38:22] Jen Kern: [00:38:22] Yeah, they're great. cause I do like to have a lot of the protein and you have that one sour where you essentially throw all your sandwich meat.
[00:38:29] Brandon Rhoten: [00:38:29] Yeah, yeah
[00:38:30] Jen Kern: [00:38:30] It's good stuff.
[00:38:32] Brandon Rhoten: [00:38:32] I agree.
[00:38:33] Jen Kern: [00:38:33] Yeah. So thinking about virtual brands, ghost kitchens,
[00:38:37] Brandon Rhoten: [00:38:37] no?
[00:38:37] Not really, not really and while I think that's a huge opportunity for a lot of brands, we're trying to actually simplify our operations. We've had too much menu creep. We've had too much, where. we've kind of strayed from what we're good at. So the opportunity for us frankly, is focused. First, once we get focused on operationally, we can actually execute that focus flawlessly.
[00:38:57] Then, we would consider things like that, but in the near future, we're not going to do a virtual brand.
[00:39:03] Jen Kern: [00:39:03] What about a ghost kitchen? Is that part of your
[00:39:05] Brandon Rhoten: [00:39:05] We do currently have catering kitchens. So we have a handful of kitchens that are doing that kind of thing. Well, you know, we're literally, it's just for delivery or for catering purposes. but I don't see us going crazy there. maybe in the future. So I could see, you know, in a market that's highly saturated.
[00:39:21] For example, all we need is, more delivery, scenarios but the place is important for Potbelly, you know, without place you miss something of this brand now maybe for a delivery visit after you visited once. It's fine. but if you don't experience physically apart, Melly, you lose a good portion of the value equation is for the brand.
[00:39:39] Yeah, because even as you're talking, I was remembering, yeah, I haven't been in, in awhile. Right. But I was remembering, standing there. I already kind of painted the picture, but standing there and then watching something that you guys do that's unique is you have the oven right there. Like where the line is.
[00:39:57] So the smells you're like watching your sandwich go through and you're smelling all the smells and got, gosh, I missed that. I just miss the in-person experience that the pandemic has deprived us all.
[00:40:14] And we think what's going to happen shortly after, it might take six months. It might take longer, but people need that sort of 30 minutes. Detach where they go to a place and sit down and enjoy themselves. And it feels warm and cozy and it smells wonderful and they decide, you know what, I'm going to get a cookie.
[00:40:34] And I'm just going to sit here for another 10 minutes and listen to this podcast or whatever. So, that's going to come back. It may take a little while, but when it does, we'll be ready.
[00:40:42] Jen Kern: [00:40:42] Yeah, Yeah. So let's talk about loyalty a second. I know you mentioned investing in loyalty and doubling down there. One of the things that I've talked about with a lot of the guests on the show has been the redefinition of loyalty and what loyalty used to be mean, points, discounting, maybe LTS, and what it means today, which is different.
[00:41:04] What does loyalty mean to you today?
[00:41:06] Brandon Rhoten: [00:41:06] Yeah. So, you know, frankly, we just had to get something in play that. Was the old version first. So we had a loyalty platform that was crazy confusing, and it wasn't used heavily and adoption. Wasn't great. We converted over actually just before the pandemic and it went fully live during the pandemic in June, to a system that's much more straightforward, kind of an earn and burn simple system that, puts us in the game for loyalty.
[00:41:33] what it will become though. and the next step in this process for us is own the position. You know, how does good vibes come through in a loyalty program? How does, first-class dive come through in a loyalty program and that's not actually not that hard to think about, you know, you said it little, do programs have become sort of the direct connection, the direct relationship between brand and consumer in a lot of cases.
[00:41:56] So. A simple example of how we started going down that road. We're doing seasonal porks right now, which is our loyalty thing, but it's all about, you know, what, 2020 has been tough enough for the next two months, November and December. We're giving away all kinds of stuff just because we love you and you deserve it.
[00:42:10] And this year stock. So we're using it as a, as an initial way, just as a way to communicate on a regular basis to consumers. But we're actually working on that articulation of position through Realty in a more meaningful way. But even at the start, even just getting a basic system up and running, you know, we've got over 2 million members.
[00:42:29] I mean, over the course of like a year and a half, we've grown to two years, we've grown 2 million members in this system that, frankly isn't anything special yet. So the opportunity to not only tap into this and move the business with it, which we're already starting to do, but go beyond that and create a real relationship is organic.
[00:42:47] Jen Kern: [00:42:47] Yeah. Yeah. And so what kind of free stuff are you giving away?
[00:42:51] Brandon Rhoten: [00:42:51] So right now, we're doing, this week, for example, it's buy one sandwich, get one half off just because you know what you're out shopping. If you are out shopping, you need to probably feed a group. we've done, you know, when soup season started, we kicked in with soup. whenever it got hot out, we did something for shakes to encourage you to come get an Oreo shake or a strawberry shake or whatever.
[00:43:10] We're starting to play around with, mechanisms. So you can, you know, my friends, the pot belly, and, you know, for that bubble that you've developed, I'm sure over the COVID, world. So you actually invite friends to meet you at lunch. We're planning right now. We're still in that experimental phase of what should this be and how does it.
[00:43:27] Best impact people. So, I'm open to suggestion though. I would tell people that as we develop this position, if you see something, uh, populating, like, you know what, I don't know what that sign means. That's crazy here. Or why do you have an actual stove in there? You know, we want to tie those things into the loyalty program.
[00:43:41] So as you get to know us, you're learning sort of the crazy history and secrets of why this antique shop now sells sandwiches.
[00:43:49] Jen Kern: [00:43:49] Yeah.
[00:43:50] Brandon Rhoten: [00:43:50] A lot of opportunity there.
[00:43:52] Jen Kern: [00:43:52] That's great. That's great. Well, playing up the emotional side of things too, right. I mean, that's so important right now. I mean, it's always important. It's always important, but even more so, and just having that connection, like you're talking about, I mean, I can't wait for this to be over.
[00:44:06] I mean, we're not supposed to live in this two dimensional space.
[00:44:09] Crazy and people are adjusting. Frankly, people need a lot more credit than they're getting. I would not have imagined a year ago that this thing would have lasted a year. Number one, almost a year now. And number two, that people actually would have adjusted as well as they have to it.
[00:44:23] Brandon Rhoten: [00:44:23] I mean, imagine being told you're going to change your life entirely for six months to a year. And you're not going to be able to go to your family's for Thanksgiving. You're not going to be able to, you know, go on your summer vacation. You're not, that would have been devastating. and the fact that people are actually figuring out a way to make it work.
[00:44:40] I would argue on the whole are relatively positive about it is awesome. It shows the resilience of people, but you know what, we're also ready to get back out there as soon as it's safe to do so. We want to be a brand that's ready for that. And we want to give you those good vibes. So you can go to the office if you feel like it that's optional, but go out to lunch go out to breakfast and go out to dinner and actually live life again.
[00:45:00] So we can't wait.
[00:45:01] Jen Kern: [00:45:01] Yeah. So exciting something to look forward to. But you're right. Humans overall done pretty well, but I mean doing this podcast honestly has been a big part for me, just staying connected, staying in touch with people, staying positive, encouragement. Like it's been huge help for me, you know? So.
[00:45:22] Brandon Rhoten: [00:45:22] Well, I mean, I think everybody's finding ways to cope. You know, I can't imagine what this would have been like without internet, without video conferencing without, You know, my kids on and off sports going in and out. And they just, it is so hard that without the technology that we have available to us, this would have been impossible.
[00:45:39] Netflix is part of the reason we're all surviving right now, frankly. that's pretty cool, but we're going to be past that.
[00:45:45] Jen Kern: [00:45:45] I've read them all, I've read them all. There's hardly any left.
[00:45:49] Brandon Rhoten: [00:45:49] Yeah, we're almost past it. So, you know, we're just looking forward to the day when, things may never go back to a hundred percent. Normally it's not in the next couple of years, but there's a lot of pent up demand out there. Restaurants are going to have a really good second half of 2021, I think.
[00:46:01] Jen Kern: [00:46:01] Yeah.
[00:46:01] Brandon Rhoten: [00:46:01] We're ready for it
[00:46:02] Jen Kern: [00:46:02] Yeah. Here's to that. So, Hey, as we wrap up here, let's see, Jim, can we do a quick lightning round?
[00:46:07] Brandon Rhoten: [00:46:07] Sure
[00:46:08] Jen Kern: [00:46:08] Biggest challenge facing restaurant marketers today.
[00:46:12] Brandon Rhoten: [00:46:12] I'd say, keeping brand in play with performance. most companies just want to return, they're looking for only low funnel, but you've got to actually be a bit a brand at the same time.
[00:46:22] Jen Kern: [00:46:22] Yeah. Biggest opportunity for restaurant marketers today.
[00:46:26] Brandon Rhoten: [00:46:26] Be a brand that's interesting. the worst brands are the ones that are boring, boring kills brands. So be interesting.
[00:46:32] Jen Kern: [00:46:32] What keeps you up at night?
[00:46:34] Brandon Rhoten: [00:46:34] My kids usually, but past that, I think the, consumers are constantly changing their minds on how they're going to. Deal with retailers. So while that's exciting, it also means you got to stay on your toes. So for me, the middle moment of inspiration in the shower is really important because, you need to stay ahead of the curve.
[00:46:53] Otherwise you quickly, quickly fall back,
[00:46:55] Jen Kern: [00:46:55] Yes. Best career advice you were ever given.
[00:46:58] Brandon Rhoten: [00:46:58] Put a bunch of money in the bank. so you can take risks.
[00:47:01] Jen Kern: [00:47:01] Love it. Is there a common belief in the restaurant industry that you disagree with passionately?
[00:47:07] Brandon Rhoten: [00:47:07] Price drives everything. I think people are motivated by price in many ways, but it is not the primary need that you have to fulfill as a brand. If that were true, most restaurants wouldn't exist, frankly. So I think price is very powerful and can be used selectively to do very effective things. But if that's all you worry about is a cheap price point or a deal, and that's it.
[00:47:30] And the story you are going to commoditize your brand and eventually go out of business.
[00:47:34] Jen Kern: [00:47:34] Great one and then final closing advice for marketers. Words of wisdom.
[00:47:39] Brandon Rhoten: [00:47:39] You got to get noticed. So you got to do. Good work. And it's really hard to do good work in most organizations. Most organizations want you to look like everyone else. The thing that everyone at the board table, everybody at the leadership team nods to is probably wrong. You got to do work that gets noticed and is interesting and is going to connect with the consumer.
[00:48:01] So have empathy and do good, interesting work, not work that it's easy to sell in because rarely does that actually grow your business with your brand.
[00:48:11] Jen Kern: [00:48:11] Yeah, so don't be afraid to stand out.
[00:48:14] Brandon Rhoten: [00:48:14] Put that money in the bank. Take some risks.
[00:48:16] Jen Kern: [00:48:16] I love it. I love it. Well, thank you so much, Brandon, for all your time today. Folks, everyone listening. Get out to Potbelly. If not now, get ready to get out to pop belly for some good vibes when they, when we're all, back to not socially distancing and, Brandon, my best to you.
[00:48:34] any quick, last shout outs for the brand that you'd like to make.
[00:48:38] Brandon Rhoten: [00:48:38] Yeah. You know, go get a wreck. If you've never had a wreack, tell them, just load it up, get some hot peppers on there. Take some risks. It is a, it will change your life for the better. You will never look at a Turkey sandwich. Again.
[00:48:50] Jen Kern: [00:48:50] The wreck. That was the name of the salad. The wreck
[00:48:53] Brandon Rhoten: [00:48:53] That's what it is. It's a great thing. I tell you. So try something different.
[00:48:57] You'd be surprised. What's good at a restaurant. Don't get the same thing. Don't buy the same thing. Get the thing. That's interesting. The thing they're known for, we're known for rec we're known for Oreo shake. We're known for killer cookies. Go get an oatmeal, chocolate chip cookie, a wreck, and an Oreo shake ruin your day, but you'll have a great lunch. I promise you
[00:49:15] Jen Kern: [00:49:15] Comfort food. You can just make that your only meal of the day.
[00:49:18] Brandon Rhoten: [00:49:18] That's right. Hey, that sounds like a good decision to the guy who runs marketing for Potbelly.
[00:49:22] Jen Kern: [00:49:22] And what about turDunkin? Are you bringing that back for Thanksgiving?
[00:49:25] Brandon Rhoten: [00:49:25] Not this year. Supply, supply chains are really tough this year with COVID. So not this year, we once in a while do a crazy thing like turdunkin and we did it last year, but Thanksgiving, not this year, so you're gonna have to settle for your wreck, but that's pretty good. So it's okay.
[00:49:38] Jen Kern: [00:49:38] Well, all do my best to you. Have a wonderful holiday, Brandon, and thank you so much for joining us on Restaurants Reinvented.
[00:49:45] Thanks for having me.