[Tyson]: Awesome. Well, thanks so much for coming on. It's actually, it's been a little while [Tyson]: I was reflecting the other day on some of the athletes that I used to run around with [Tyson]: here in Ballarat. And one of the Aussies that I reckon you might have run against a [Tyson]: few times is a friend of mine by the name of Collis Birmingham, [Ben]: Yep. [Tyson]: who he was on the international scene. And I thought I just jumped across to have
[Tyson]: a little freshen up on some of your PBs last night. And I noticed that your profile [Tyson]: picture with World Athletics. is you leading Coles at the 2013 [Ben]: Hehehehe [Tyson]: World Cross Country Championships. But that's gone back a few years, man. What's [Tyson]: new is [Ben]: Yeah, I used [Tyson]: that... [Ben]: to roll with him and Benny Saint as well. Yeah. [Tyson]: Oh, two of the two of the best blokes going around Benny St. Lawrence is a fantastic
[Tyson]: fellow. He was a big inspiration of mine actually, cause I was a, a little bit [Tyson]: of a later developer in the world of athletics and [Ben]: Yeah. [Tyson]: he started relatively young and then left the sport and got fat for a couple [Ben]: Yeah, [Tyson]: of years [Ben]: he has a great story. [Tyson]: and then came back and just started absolutely ripping it up at about like age [Tyson]: 25 or 26. And once I saw him tearing it up at 25 or 26, I thought, okay, don't hang
[Tyson]: up the spikes just yet. Oh. I'll give it a few [Ben]: Yeah. [Tyson]: more years, but yeah, that's going back, man. So were there any other Aussies? [Tyson]: Did you race much against Motrum or was he sort of phasing out as you were peaking? [Ben]: No, I mean, I definitely raced him, but he was phasing out by the time I was coming [Ben]: up. But I do remember he and I raced, we went one, two in a battle in Crystal Palace [Ben]: many, many years ago.
[Tyson]: I didn't realize the stature that you reached with some of your times. Like if I [Tyson]: had of guessed, I thought you were sort of a 13, 15 man. And then last night as [Tyson]: I was reading through the world athletics profile, I thought, I've cut him off well and [Tyson]: truly. [Ben]: Hehehehe [Tyson]: So 1302, a couple of the Diamond League or Crystal Palace victories, [Ben]: Yep, yep, [Tyson]: if I'm not wrong. So [Ben]: yeah.
[Tyson]: what was your, you were kind of 5,000 meters at the end of it. That was probably [Tyson]: between five and 10. Like I saw 27, 16 bloody good as well. But I was trying to [Tyson]: weigh up which one I thought was better. But they're both, I mean 1302 sounds [Ben]: Well, [Tyson]: pretty [Ben]: so the [Tyson]: good. [Ben]: third unit too was pre-Super Shoes, right? The 10K was after the Super Shoes, the fancy
[Ben]: spikes came around. So, you know, the 5K is probably a little bit better. Ha ha ha.
[Tyson]: I did like 1302, but you're right, it's amazing actually that you mentioned that, [Tyson]: because I'd had, despite being involved in coaching and this podcast now for nearly [Tyson]: four years, one thing that blew my mind as I've started to get ready for, long [Tyson]: story short, I was trying to prepare for the Melbourne Marathon this year, but I [Tyson]: missed an entry that I'm not gonna abort the audience with all the details, because
[Tyson]: they've heard me bitch about it too many times. One of the things that blew my [Tyson]: mind was just how much the technology in that shoe department has just increased
[Tyson]: over the last few years. Like I went into a shoe shop here in Victoria in Melbourne [Tyson]: a couple of weeks ago and I looked at the wall and I was like, I don't really [Tyson]: know what I'm looking at anymore [Ben]: Hehehehe [Tyson]: because we used to have like your structured tri-axis and I was an ASICS man like any of [Tyson]: the GT series [Ben]: Yep, [Tyson]: I was pretty [Ben]: yep.
[Tyson]: comfortable with and familiar with back in the day. But then yet looking at that [Tyson]: wall I was like man, it's almost I mean, it is a field of expertise for so many [Tyson]: people now. They've got podcasts dedicated just to [Ben]: Oh, [Tyson]: breaking down. [Ben]: it's unreal. It's unreal. The tech that's gone in now, it's phenomenal. It'll be interesting [Ben]: to see long term how it handles, because I think it does, these new carbon shoes, super
[Ben]: shoes, does alter some people's gates in a not so beneficial way. But they're so [Ben]: much faster. And the ability to recover is so much higher in between sessions that. [Ben]: It's changed the game for sure. [Tyson]: Yeah, so you're thinking maybe long-term injuries people might face after just [Ben]: Yeah. [Tyson]: being exposed to these shoes over the years [Ben]: But I mean, the trade off is, you know, back in the day when we trained in, you know,
[Ben]: the lightest shoe possible, that was basically nothing. There are a lot of injuries [Ben]: from that as well. So, you know, it's a trade off that we'll see how it happens. [Tyson]: What were you racing in back when you were running 1302s? What spikes were you rocking [Tyson]: then? [Ben]: I was with Saucony and it was the lightest, stiffest spike I could find. It was actually [Ben]: their 1500 meter spike. I didn't like any of the distance spikes. I thought they
[Ben]: were too flexible and soft. And it was very aggressive. I kept trying to get Saucony [Ben]: to make more aggressive spikes and they kept telling me We can't sell those that would [Ben]: break all the, you know, the major market for Asakini was a high school runner, college [Ben]: runner, and they're like, we'll tear all their Achilles. So I had to make do with [Ben]: some of the shorter distance spikes to be able to race.
[Tyson]: Yeah, how many years were you with so can he for [Ben]: I was with them for nine or 10 years. [Tyson]: Gee, it's [Ben]: Yeah. [Tyson]: really interesting actually, just to see how much they're, I know you're an Essex [Tyson]: man now, aren't you? [Ben]: Yep. [Tyson]: But the Salkoni, they sort of, they tripped me out a little bit, because as I said,
[Tyson]: I stepped back into the world of running and knew very little about the shoes. And when [Tyson]: I was at this shop a few weeks ago, a lady bought out their Salkoni, they're called [Tyson]: Endorphin Shift 3. [Ben]: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. [Tyson]: And she goes, oh, these Salkonis are good. And I was like, I honestly didn't know [Tyson]: that Salkoni ain't good. was the thing, whether [Ben]: Yeah [Tyson]: that was marketing or what, but it kind of tripped me out. And what was funny
[Tyson]: was I put them on and I had a little run on the treadmill. And I said to her, I [Tyson]: go, these feel incredible. She goes, yeah, they've lifted their game. [Ben]: Yeah. [Tyson]: I said, oh, that's good. Like, this is Aussie dollars I'm talking about here. But [Tyson]: she goes, and she goes, and value for money, like you're not gonna do much better [Tyson]: than this. I said, oh, how much am I paying for that? She goes, these ones are
[Tyson]: 250. I go, come on now, like 250 bucks. That's all can be was what you went to back [Tyson]: in the day when you're on a budget. [Ben]: Hehehehe [Tyson]: But It's actually incredible, even ASICS the last few years, it's been really [Tyson]: impressive to see. We've got Jess Stenson over here who rocks ASICS and there's quite [Tyson]: a number of athletes on the international circuit now who are rocking both of those.
[Ben]: Yeah, [Tyson]: But back [Ben]: so [Tyson]: when [Ben]: they've [Tyson]: you were rocking. [Ben]: come back in... 2019 is when ASICS really started upping their game big time and getting [Ben]: back into it and really putting a lot of new tech and a lot of new R&D into their [Ben]: shoes and making them something special again. So they're doing really well.
[Tyson]: You sort of naturally just have to, like when it's interesting when a company like [Tyson]: Nike starts just throwing out things like the Vaporflys, it's been incredible to [Tyson]: watch just the response of [Ben]: Yeah. [Tyson]: other companies. That's one thing that I've found really interesting as well. Just [Tyson]: before I hit record, I mentioned the young Aussie guy, Ken Myers, who is running [Tyson]: 333 and at 17 years old, back when I was competing, like the fastest I've ever
[Tyson]: been was 349. And that was okay here in the state. But they, that would win a lot [Tyson]: of races here, but, uh, like on a local level, but then you have a bloke like that [Tyson]: go out and run three 33. Then there's another New Zealand guy who stepped up to the [Tyson]: plate and starts running around the same time. There's a Norwegian kid who's 18 [Tyson]: running three 32. It seems it doesn't matter if it's in sort of the, the development
[Tyson]: of technology or in the improvement in times being run. There seems to be something [Tyson]: in the air that when someone pushes something to a new threshold. people tend to [Tyson]: follow pretty quickly. [Ben]: Yeah. [Tyson]: I can't remember the exact stat, but I remember up until Roger Bannister broke the
[Tyson]: four minute mile, it was something that was just never gonna be done. And I might [Tyson]: be exaggerating here, but I wanna say in the next couple of years, like a hundred [Tyson]: athletes did it. [Ben]: Yeah, no, it's crazy. I mean, it's the psychological piece, right? As soon as a barrier [Ben]: is broken or was deemed impossible or hard to do, once it's done and it's been done [Ben]: by somebody that you've raced against in the past or is kind of like you, it makes
[Ben]: it much easier to do it, again, for anybody. And that's the same thing. But I think also [Ben]: in today's connected world, people just know a lot more about training, know a lot [Ben]: more about opportunities to race and they're just more educated. And so at a younger [Ben]: age, and they're able to translate that a little bit better. I mean, I knew when I [Ben]: was growing up, I grew up in Maine and small state in the US, and I didn't know that
[Ben]: running existed outside of Maine. And so, you know, my training. Once I got to my [Ben]: first national caliber meat, I looked up to, it was Chris Salinski. I remember him [Ben]: saying, you know, he used to run a hundred mile weeks in high school. And I'd go back [Ben]: to my hotel room and add up all the miles that I ran that week. And the biggest week [Ben]: I've ever did was 25 miles. And like, I never knew there's somebody could run more.
[Ben]: And so, you know, just the more you learn, and you learn that What you don't know is out [Ben]: there. It kind of elevates the whole game. [Tyson]: That's a [Ben]: And [Tyson]: really [Ben]: so that's... [Tyson]: good point man, he was a big inspiration of mine actually where what are you 37? So [Tyson]: you're a year older than me So we probably admired a lot of the same [Ben]: Yeah, [Tyson]: athletes [Ben]: oh yeah, [Tyson]: growing [Ben]: yeah.
[Tyson]: up But he was one that I like because I thought if a bloke with quads and a torso [Ben]: Hahaha! [Tyson]: that big can run 2659 they're still hoping the game because that was one thing [Tyson]: that I was different definitely carried around the tracks I had I had legs that were [Tyson]: designed more for a footballer than a middle distance runner. So [Ben]: Hehehehe
[Tyson]: I saw him and was inspired for a different reason, but it's a really good point. Another [Tyson]: guy that I'd been really interested in more recently for the same reasons that [Tyson]: you just touched on, just the abundance of knowledge that's out there is Jakob Ingebrigsten. [Tyson]: Just seeing how young he was when he started to really lay down some of the miles.
[Tyson]: I know he's got the two older brothers who sort of paved the path before him was probably [Tyson]: offering a bit of education on top of whatever it was that he was learning [Ben]: and [Tyson]: himself. [Ben]: perfect training [Tyson]: But... [Ben]: partners too. [Tyson]: For sure, for [Ben]: Yeah. [Tyson]: sure. What do you mean in terms of quality of athlete? [Ben]: Right, right.
[Tyson]: Yeah, it's been unbelievable. So as you were growing up in Maine, when did you [Tyson]: sort of start stepping into the world of distance running? [Ben]: So I started just running for fun. When I was quite young, my dad was in a neighborhood [Ben]: and our neighborhood was training for, I think it was the 100th anniversary of the [Ben]: Boston Marathon. And so they started running and so I was like, oh my dad's running,
[Ben]: that's the cool thing to do. I want to start doing the, you know, the rec program [Ben]: in town and doing half-mile jogs and stuff like that. And I quickly was shown that [Ben]: I was quite good at it and I enjoyed running faster than other people. So I just [Ben]: kept at it, kept at it. But when I got to high school, I also started cross-country [Ben]: skiing, Noric skiing. And I really, really loved Noric skiing. And so that was actually
[Ben]: my main focus. And so when I went to college, I ran and I skied at college. And [Ben]: I actually thought that I was going to give up running and just go the Norrk ski path. [Ben]: And something brought me back to running post college and I ended up running instead. [Tyson]: So it was post college that you made the big move back?
[Ben]: Yeah, yeah. So I took a year off of when I was in college. I decided what's the one [Ben]: thing that I wanted to do left in my running career and then be fine walking away [Ben]: with never running again and focus all of my energy into Nordic skiing. And it was [Ben]: break the four minute mile. You know, when you're in high school and college, like [Ben]: that's the cool barrier. And so I was like, all right, once I do that, I'm done.
[Ben]: And so I did that and I was like, I'm done hanging up the spikes. I took a year off [Ben]: from college and I went out to Idaho and joined a professional ski group out there [Ben]: and was like, I'm going to be a skier now. But it was the first time I've ever trained [Ben]: at altitude and I kind of went gung-ho into the training a little bit too much. I [Ben]: really upped the volume and the intensity and I kind of burnt myself out. And so my ski
[Ben]: coach at the time was saying, all right. You know, you're so far gone with fatigue and [Ben]: over training that, um, why don't you take, you know, a few weeks off from training [Ben]: and just go out for, you know, 10 to 20 minute jogs every day just to get the body [Ben]: loosened up and try to help, you know, aid in recovery. And so I started doing that [Ben]: and I realized how much I loved running and how, um, easy running came to me. It seemed
[Ben]: like when I was running, I didn't have to think. I just floated. Whereas when I skied, [Ben]: it was something that I really enjoyed doing, but it was something that I had to mentally [Ben]: think about constantly. It wasn't something that came naturally to me at all. And so I [Ben]: made the decision, well, when I got my energy levels back, I was like, well, I guess [Ben]: running, if I want to take one of these two sports to the furthest I can, running is
[Ben]: the way to go. And I became a runner. Follower rider after that. [Tyson]: Well, it seems like, I don't know anything, to be honest, about skiing, but in terms of [Tyson]: cross training, I know a lot of athletes get on the elliptical when they're trying to [Tyson]: save a little bit of the pressure that they'd be putting on their joints with double [Tyson]: runs and things like that. It seems like a pretty nice sport that if you're flirting, [Tyson]: on the edge [Ben]: Oh yeah.
[Tyson]: of two sports that they complement each other really nicely. [Ben]: Yeah, it's a lot like cycling where you can, there's zero impact really on the body. [Ben]: And you can really work the cardiovascular system really well. The one downside with Nordic [Ben]: skiing is you'd bulk up quite a bit. There's a lot of upper body strength that you [Ben]: need skiing. Actually if you look at World Cup skiers, more than 50% of the top
[Ben]: men World Cup skiers. The majority of their power comes from the upper body from [Ben]: the hips up is the this so they're more arm-dominant Than leg-dominant for propelling [Ben]: themselves forward by like a 60 40 70 30 margin is quite large The women are a little [Ben]: bit closer the women are more like 55 45 between arms and legs but top level of Nordic [Ben]: skiing is very arm-dominant and Me as a runner, I just never got my arms are strong [Ben]: enough to really hang with them.
[Tyson]: Yeah, it's so interesting. So obviously when I think of cycling as an alternative to [Tyson]: running, the thing that puts me off there is just the amount of time and the amount [Tyson]: of miles, [Ben]: Oh yeah. [Tyson]: and probably cars just flying past you. But in terms of the Nordic skiing, is [Tyson]: the training fairly comparable in terms of time to what it is with running? Like how [Tyson]: do you structure the [Ben]: I [Tyson]: weeks [Ben]: do [Tyson]: with [Ben]: more.
[Tyson]: the skiing? [Ben]: I do more. So when I was really into it in college, you know, my OD, my over distance [Ben]: would be a five hour ski. And [Tyson]: Oh wow. [Ben]: a typical training session would be 90 minutes to 150 [Ben]: minutes to like two and a half hours. And so you can do a lot more volume. Yeah, [Ben]: for sure. [Tyson]: just based on the fact that you're not putting so much pressure through the joints. [Ben]: You're right, exactly, exactly.
[Tyson]: Man, that's really interesting. So you're obviously at college. Yeah, it's not [Tyson]: like you're an incredibly late developer. Like at that time, to be breaking a four minute [Tyson]: mile at what? You would have been 21, 22, maybe even younger. [Ben]: It was my third year, my junior year, so probably 2021. [Tyson]: And what did your training look like at the time? Because it's really interesting [Tyson]: to hear that even... [Ben]: Mostly [Tyson]: Ha ha [Ben]: Nordic skiing.
[Tyson]: ha! [Ben]: So how I would break up the year is that, [Tyson]: Ha [Ben]: you [Tyson]: ha. [Ben]: know, in the fall would be cross country season for running. And I'd do that fully. [Ben]: And then NCAAs was always the Monday before Thanksgiving. So late November. And [Ben]: I'd race NCAA cross, hop on a plane. and fly to Montana where I do my first ski
[Ben]: race the day before Thanksgiving, like three or four days later. Having no time on [Ben]: snow, having no time, I just go right from cross-country, running to cross-country [Ben]: skiing, ski the whole winter, and I'd start off not being very good skier, obviously, [Ben]: and then start getting better and better throughout the season, more time I was skiing, [Ben]: and then immediately switch at the end. to going back to running. So I like very segmented
[Ben]: my year and focused strictly on each one. So when I ran, you know, when I'd run [Ben]: fast times on the track, I never ran in college, probably how fast I should have [Ben]: run, but it would always be, you know, within two months of first run of the year [Ben]: for a while from coming off of ski season.
[Tyson]: Gee, [Ben]: Yeah. [Tyson]: so coming back off the ski season onto the track season, I know you said your arms [Tyson]: never really took off like a Nordic ski should have, but surely you're packing [Tyson]: a little bit on [Ben]: Oh [Tyson]: the start [Ben]: yeah, [Tyson]: line compared to some of those other runners.
[Ben]: yeah. So typically I remember, in cross I would typically for running I'd typically [Ben]: be like 165 pounds and then I'd gain 20 pounds throughout the winter to bulk up [Ben]: and then by track I may have been able to lose 10 pounds. I may have been like high [Ben]: 170s and then take all summer to shed the weight back. and then just start it back [Ben]: over again. [Tyson]: have been so frustrating for your college coaches was it to see [Ben]: Yeah, I'm sure.
[Tyson]: the potential that you had and the fact you run in four-minute miles at 20 and [Tyson]: to be leaning towards skiing. What do you think it was like you just felt like [Tyson]: the appeal of running at that time wasn't there? [Ben]: Yeah, it was always a love-hate relationship with running growing up. It was always something [Ben]: that other people told me I was really good at. And I knew that I was good at because
[Ben]: I was winning races, right? But it was more I was doing it because other people told [Ben]: me I should do it. Whereas skiing was something I did because I really enjoyed it. [Ben]: So skiing was for me and running was for other people. And it wasn't until I stepped [Ben]: back from running and said, I'm not running again. that I was able to shed that aspect [Ben]: of it and shed that I was no longer doing it for other people, but now I was doing it
[Ben]: for my own goals and my own desires. And that was the only way that I was able to [Ben]: pick running back. [Tyson]: Yeah, so Maine, I've never been to Maine, but is it the one, is it a couple of [Tyson]: hours or outside of New York? Like you mentioned Boston was relatively close before [Tyson]: as well, [Ben]: Yeah, [Tyson]: so. [Ben]: so I grew up about two hours, I grew up in southern Maine, so it was about two hours [Ben]: north of Boston. [Tyson]: Oh, sure. Okay, [Ben]: Yep.
[Tyson]: so there, yeah, cause just the introduction [Ben]: Most people [Tyson]: to. [Ben]: call it Canada, but you know, it's Maine. Hehehehe. [Tyson]: Yeah, okay. What you're trying to avoid that title or is [Ben]: Yeah! [Tyson]: it a... or is it actually a little conjecture as to where it is? [Ben]: No, I mean, Maine was basically surrounded by Canada. But yeah, no, we're... [Tyson]: Yeah, I would, I would claim, I would claim American over Canada [Ben]: Yeah.
[Tyson]: as well. I'm so sorry to all our Canadian listeners. It's just a little bit of a soft [Tyson]: spot in my heart for the U S. So, uh, okay. So there came a point where for you, [Tyson]: like you got lured back into the world of running and then from there, how old were [Tyson]: you when you decided, okay, well, I'm, I'm back, this is going to be my focus now. [Ben]: So I graduated from college in 2009 and went out to the Oregon Track Club out in Eugene
[Ben]: immediately and ran for them for a year. Realized I hated being on the west coast and [Ben]: it just wasn't the scenario for me and moved back to my college town, originally to [Ben]: train by myself. and do it my own, but luckily a little group formed out there and [Ben]: I've been in Hanover, New Hampshire ever since. [Tyson]: Gee, so what was it about the west side that you didn't enjoy? [Ben]: I don't know. I think I'm just a New Englander through and through. I'm a homeboy.
[Ben]: And so I really like, you know, the Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, New England area. And [Ben]: the West Coast was just too different for me. Eugene, Oregon was too big of a city. [Ben]: For example, I lived right next to the University of Oregon's football stadium. And [Ben]: the football stadium could hold more people than the entire city of Portland, Maine, [Ben]: which is the largest city in Maine. And I just couldn't deal with so many people around
[Ben]: me. And so I had to get out of there. [Tyson]: Well, it blows my mind about the US college system, like here in, or university [Tyson]: college in Australia. I mean, we've got our sporting competitions, but mate, like [Tyson]: good luck trying to fill up a basketball stadium, let alone a football stadium with [Ben]: Uh... [Tyson]: fans for college sport. It really blows my mind. I actually, I went to Eugene, my brother-in-law
[Tyson]: lives in, in a place called Medford in Oregon. He married an American girl. So [Tyson]: the Americans won one of, from us. And we've been over there quite a few times [Tyson]: just to catch up with him. And I know what you mean. It was the old, actually it [Tyson]: wasn't the football stadium we saw. We went and saw Hayward Field before they had [Tyson]: done [Ben]: Oh yeah. [Tyson]: it all up.
[Ben]: Yep. [Tyson]: And I kind of fell in love with it because obviously, as you can see here, I'm [Tyson]: like, I'm such [Ben]: Yep. [Tyson]: a, like anyone our age, I'm sure, or anyone in the running world. There was a little [Tyson]: bit of an allure of pre-fontaine back in the day. So to go there and see the sights, [Tyson]: I kind of fell in love with it. But obviously it's, I mean, probably the weather
[Tyson]: in Australia is a little more. comparable to the west coast of America than going from [Tyson]: the east coast of America [Ben]: Yeah. [Tyson]: to the west coast. So at least that part I had on side. But there were some good [Tyson]: athletes training around then. I think I've completely blanked on his name, but we [Tyson]: had an 800 meter runner, Lockie, something that was training in Oregon back in the day.
[Tyson]: I think he was like a 145 man. He went to Oregon. I don't know if that rings any bells. [Ben]: Yeah, so Nick Simmons was there when I was there [Tyson]: Yes. [Ben]: for the year. And he was the other big 800 meter runner. Christian Smith was there. [Tyson]: Mm-hmm. [Ben]: He and. I think those were like the two big 1800 meter guys. [Tyson]: Yeah. [Ben]: They were there when I was there, yeah. [Tyson]: And was Jordan, Jordan Hussey and that [Ben]: She was [Tyson]: kinda... [Ben]: after.
[Tyson]: Oh, [Ben]: So she was, [Tyson]: okay. [Ben]: she may have been in university at the U of O at that time, [Tyson]: Yep. [Ben]: but she wasn't part of the Oregon Track Club or anything like that. [Tyson]: Yeah. [Ben]: Yep. [Tyson]: What was the track club like? Cause from Australia, I look at the idea of Oregon [Tyson]: Track Club and think, mate, that's the dream. Like [Ben]: Yeah.
[Tyson]: if I was running faster, I would have, and got any offers, I would have been there [Tyson]: with you, but unfortunately I wasn't running a sub four minute mile and I was no [Tyson]: good at skiing. So I was [Ben]: Hehehehe [Tyson]: limited for options. But in terms of culture, so was that back in the day, was that [Tyson]: Salazar looking after you guys? [Ben]: No, so that was Mark Rowland. [Tyson]: That's right. Yep.
[Ben]: It was like his first year or his second year of coaching was when I was there. And [Ben]: so Frank Gagliano was the outgoing coach and he was the one that recruited me. And then [Ben]: Mark Rowland was there. And I really enjoyed Mark Rowland. He was going from a program [Ben]: Oregon track of the time was 20 plus athletes. And so I never worked with Mark Rowland [Ben]: on a day-to-day basis. It was like assistance coaches that would work with me. And I don't
[Ben]: know. We just kind of, the group that I was training with kind of felt like we were [Ben]: kind of tossed aside and kind of forgotten about. And so made some great friends, guys [Ben]: that I was training with. But it was. didn't feel like a full cohesive team. It was [Ben]: very partial doubt teams, kind of squads that trained together. And so it wasn't the [Ben]: same atmosphere that I was looking for.
[Tyson]: Sure. And do you mean it was separated based on how coaches perceived talent at the [Tyson]: time? So they had a certain level of athlete that was like, okay, this athlete's [Tyson]: going somewhere, this athlete's maybe not there yet? [Ben]: Probably a bit of that and probably a bit of, I mean between that and distance, like [Ben]: what event you would be doing. But the focus was definitely on Lauren Fleshman who
[Ben]: was there at the time, Sally Kipiego who was there, and Nick Simmons. Those were [Ben]: like the people that, you know, Mark Rowland really had focus on and everybody else [Ben]: kind of. was doing their own thing off the side. Ha ha [Tyson]: Yeah, [Ben]: ha. [Tyson]: yeah. It's very strange that, I don't know, it's not just limited to running. I used
[Tyson]: to experience that from time to time. Not even on purpose and not even in a negative [Tyson]: way, but there'd be certain groups that I would train with and I was like, oh [Tyson]: man, I've been here for a while now and I still feel like I'm in the outskirts. [Tyson]: I just can't [Ben]: Yeah. [Tyson]: quite connect with this group and I could never figure out whether it was a talent
[Tyson]: thing or whether it was just a time involved in the group and I'm sure. you know, [Tyson]: there was a number of things, perhaps it was just the fact that they didn't like [Tyson]: my personality. [Ben]: Hehehehe [Tyson]: I never wanted to look at that one. Yeah, it's [Ben]: But [Tyson]: interesting.
[Ben]: I know that right after I left, when I left, there was quite a few people who left [Ben]: the program at the same time, and so it went from a group that was like 20 plus [Ben]: people down to 15, 10, 15, and I heard that things smoothed out a lot more when there [Ben]: was less people. So I think it was, one of the situations was, Roland came into a program [Ben]: that was much larger than he really wanted it to be. Yeah.
[Tyson]: Sure, yeah, well that's the reason. I only ever really take on 10 athletes at a [Tyson]: max at a time and it's for that reason. Like obviously [Ben]: Yeah. [Tyson]: the beauty of the internet is the fact that you can coach people in all different [Tyson]: areas. But one of the things that I find, if I start spreading out my energy too [Tyson]: thin with too many athletes, that is something that definitely creeps in. You start [Tyson]: feeling like, oh crap, [Ben]: Mm-hmm.
[Tyson]: I haven't spoken to whoever it is for a week or so now, I better get in touch. And [Ben]: Yeah. [Tyson]: yeah, I definitely find that, I sympathise with him in that department because it... It [Tyson]: doesn't take much for your energy just to be spread too thin. Yeah. You sound like [Tyson]: a kind of athlete as well, who just enjoys your own company. Like from, from what
[Tyson]: you've said, yeah. Do you, did you enjoy getting out there and doing a lot of [Tyson]: the training by yourself? [Ben]: Yeah, I mean, I majority of my career are trained by myself. I mean, other than a [Ben]: period of time for one year that Sam Chalanga trained with me, I trained completely [Ben]: solo until the very end, most recently when I hired a training partner to move out [Ben]: and start training with me. So the vast majority, 95% of my career, running everything
[Ben]: by myself. A very lucky day would be somebody would be at the track holding a stopwatch [Ben]: for me. That would be like a prime day. But it was mostly just me doing my thing by [Ben]: myself. And there's aspects that I enjoyed of that. The biggest thing is, you know, going [Ben]: out for an easy run. I can run exactly how my body wanted to. I could run the time [Ben]: of day I wanted to. I'm sorry, I could sleep in and still get my double in, but just
[Ben]: spread them out a little bit different. And the biggest thing was just I could run [Ben]: as slow or as fast as I wanted to an easy day. Most of my workouts were more tempo [Ben]: threshold based. And those, again, are more feel than prescribed pace. And so I think [Ben]: that I was much better at being able to find that effort and not get pushed to go [Ben]: too hard or held back to go too. too slow, I could run that level very well. But
[Ben]: the times I did train with other people, it was so much easier. I could run so many [Ben]: more harder workouts, and those were when my best times came, was off the back of [Ben]: training with other people. So I don't think I ever reached the level that I could [Ben]: have had I trained with training partners the entire time throughout my career. But I [Ben]: knew after I moved out to Eugene and spent a year out in Eugene, because that's
[Ben]: where people told me that I had to go if I wanted to be a professional athlete. I [Ben]: had, where do you go? You go to Eugene. Where do you, who do you join? You join the [Ben]: Oregon Track Club. And I realized that wasn't the path for me. And so when I did move [Ben]: back to the East Coast, I made a firm pact that I was going to do my training for [Ben]: me and what made me happy. And for me, being happy was being here and being happy
[Ben]: with my life outside of running. As long as that is fine, then I can make the running [Ben]: work. [Ben]: I wasn't willing to compromise my life outside of the sport to try to find that extra [Ben]: edge. And I think... there's no way that my career would have been as long as it is [Ben]: has been if I went a different route.
[Tyson]: Yeah, it's really interesting that you mentioned that back when you were younger, [Tyson]: you were told that if you wanted to be a professional athlete, that's where you [Tyson]: need to go. And I mentioned it, I was serious before when I said if I was good enough, [Tyson]: I would have probably [Ben]: Yeah.
[Tyson]: like tried to get into Oregon. It's a very similar story here. Like I know there's [Tyson]: a number of other colleges around America that has a really good college system that [Tyson]: a number of Aussies have gone to and plenty of Americans run it. But I wonder how [Tyson]: much that has to do with, to go back to your original point about the internet and
[Tyson]: just being aware of all the groups out there and especially in America. I mean, [Tyson]: here in Australia, we've got a number of great, like really, really good groups, [Tyson]: both community level, professional level, some combining both of those. But to [Tyson]: look at the states at the moment, and I mean, I put you in this category now with
[Tyson]: what you've started, I'm interested to hear more about that. But I mean, from Tin [Tyson]: Man Elite to a number of the groups all around the country, it seems as though [Tyson]: I mean, Oregon's one of many options now. [Ben]: Yeah, it is one of many options, but where are all the options, right? They're all [Ben]: clustered in certain spots. And so it's still, if you're a runner in the United States
[Ben]: and you want to go somewhere, where do you go? You have to go to Boulder, you go to [Ben]: Flagstaff. Those are really, or you go to Oregon, right? Those are like the three [Ben]: options. And so a lot of that is social media driven. A lot of that is, you know, driven [Ben]: because one group has some success and then it's deemed everybody has to go there [Ben]: to have success. I'm a firm believer that if it works for one person, doesn't necessarily
[Ben]: mean it's going to work for you. You've got to find out what works for you. And so [Ben]: that's one of the reasons why I've been trying to really start up this Northwest Athletics [Ben]: group where showing there is other options and you can make options and opportunities [Ben]: for yourself in other places. You don't have to go to these places just because... [Ben]: that's where people say you have to go. You should go to a place because you actually
[Ben]: want to be there and you want to live there and you like the lifestyle there. And [Ben]: so for me, that's New England. I love New England. I think that there's better training [Ben]: here than anywhere else in the United States. And so it's a shame that people don't [Ben]: know much about these other training venues that are out there. And I'm sure there's [Ben]: many of them throughout the country that are way overlooked. that could be phenomenal
[Ben]: training groups. They said there, but everybody just gets on this bandwagon that [Ben]: you have to go to Boulder, you have to go to Flagstaff. And I've always shunned that [Ben]: idea that you know, you can go where you want to go. [Tyson]: Yeah, it's true. We were laughing on here a while ago. I think I was speaking to [Tyson]: him about it, Pat Tynan. [Ben]: Yep. [Tyson]: I'm gonna, I can't remember. You might know better than me. Do you know where he's
[Tyson]: based right now? I want to say it's like North Carolina. [Ben]: Yeah, I think so. I think the Durham-Raleigh Triangle area there. Yeah, North Carolina. [Tyson]: See, I thought that was where you went if you wanted to be Michael Jordan, but apparently [Ben]: Hehehehe [Tyson]: there's a number of athletes starting to get a bit of a reputation there. And I mean, [Tyson]: he's packed in and moves there. He's a 2'11 man on debut, a 2'7'20 [Ben]: Yeah.
[Tyson]: man or whatever. I mean, it speaks volumes as to the fact that, or to emphasize [Tyson]: your point, that there's more than one option now. But I'm interested to hear
[Tyson]: more about your sort of move back east, because it must have been. not humbling, but [Tyson]: it would have been a challenge at a younger age like that to be told, okay, you [Tyson]: want to be professional, go here, do this, and then getting there and being a little [Tyson]: disenfranchised or disconnected from, you know, the group or whatever you thought [Tyson]: it was that was going to be, just didn't quite live up to the expectations. Was it hard
[Tyson]: to go back to the East coast? Had you sort of decided at that point, um, that you [Tyson]: were, you were happy just to train by yourself or were you thinking, Oh, get a [Tyson]: coach or were you sort of, I know you said a lot of your training was by yourself, [Tyson]: but were you self-coached as well? [Ben]: So when I went back, I made a decision that I was going to go back thinking that I'd
[Ben]: just go back and train by myself. But serendipitously, there was a new track program [Ben]: that started in Hanover, New Hampshire, where I moved back to, or I went to college, [Ben]: starting up right when I left. And it was coached by Tim Breaux. And so I did that. [Ben]: That was phenomenal for... [Tyson]: Oh, that's a name I haven't heard of for a while. [Ben]: I [Tyson]: He was [Ben]: know. [Tyson]: a steeplechaser, wasn't [Ben]: Yeah, [Tyson]: he? [Ben]: exactly, exactly.
[Tyson]: Dude, [Ben]: Yep. [Tyson]: sorry to interrupt, they just rang a bell. I was like, I know that name. Yeah, [Tyson]: he was a wild [Ben]: Yeah, [Tyson]: man. I loved him. [Ben]: yeah. And so that was great. But that fizzled out very quickly. That was only around [Ben]: for just under two years, I want to say. And so after that, I was fully on my own. And
[Ben]: I trained under Tim Browse still for a few years. And then started working with [Ben]: Mark Coogan, who was the Dartmouth coach at the time, the Dartmouth women's coach, and [Ben]: trained with him for a while. And then he had a conflict of interest contractually
[Ben]: with New Balance once he left Dartmouth and was no longer able to work with me. And [Ben]: so I did some coaching, self-coaching myself, went back with Tim Breaux for a bit, [Ben]: self-coached some more, and then worked with Ray Tracy out of Providence. [Tyson]: Mm-hmm. [Ben]: Yep.
[Tyson]: Yeah, yeah. And how much did your training vary from that point? I know your career sort [Tyson]: of spans quite a number of years, so I could be a little bit more specific, but [Tyson]: when you were running your fastest times, and I hope they were around the same [Tyson]: time, like your 27-14 and your 13-02, like... [Ben]: No, those were a long time apart. Ha ha [Tyson]: Well, [Ben]: ha. [Tyson]: that's actually, I mean, that could be, that could actually make this conversation
[Tyson]: more interesting. How, [Ben]: Yeah. [Tyson]: do you know the years [Ben]: Those [Tyson]: of [Ben]: are [Tyson]: difference [Ben]: eight years [Tyson]: between, [Ben]: apart, maybe [Tyson]: wow. Okay, [Ben]: nine, [Tyson]: so [Ben]: ten [Tyson]: what [Ben]: years [Tyson]: did [Ben]: apart, [Tyson]: you run [Ben]: maybe. [Tyson]: first? Wow. [Ben]: So the five K first. [Tyson]: Okay. [Ben]: Yep. And that I was working with Mark Kugin then. And that's when I was training
[Ben]: with Sam Jelenga. And, yep. And then the 2714 was just a few years ago when I was [Ben]: working with Ray Tracy and I had training partner that I hired, Dan Kurtz, who's still [Ben]: in the area running with me. [Tyson]: Awesome. How different was your training in between those two [Ben]: Quite [Tyson]: PBs? [Ben]: a bit different. Yeah.
[Tyson]: Yeah, I don't know. I could be testing your memory going back a decade, but what did [Tyson]: your weekly structure look like when you ran your 1302 in terms of how did you divide [Tyson]: up the miles and the speed [Ben]: Yeah, [Tyson]: and things?
[Ben]: so let's see if I can remember correctly. It was a lot of, so Kukin had me on the standard [Ben]: week schedule in calendar week schedule of the universities, where you typically Monday [Ben]: easy, Tuesday workout, Wednesday slightly longer run, Thursday easy, Friday workout, [Ben]: Saturday easy, Sunday long. And that was the plan under Kugen. Did a lot of mixed
[Ben]: workout of threshold tempo work with speed, but a lot of high volume. And so I was [Ben]: actually looking back at the training under Kugen a little while ago and a typical [Ben]: workout may be five by a K in 250. then a 20 minute tempo, so a four mile tempo, and [Ben]: then another five by a K in like 245. So I would get pretty good volume, or I do [Ben]: a 20 minute tempo, a bunch of two minute hill reps, and then another 20 minute tempo.
[Ben]: There's a lot of tempo stuff with some speed around on the sides, but most workouts [Ben]: would be eight, to 11 miles of volume in the workout, and then you'll warm up and [Ben]: cool down. [Tyson]: Gee. [Ben]: Rarely did anything especially fast, rarely did anything that was, you know, 5K [Ben]: race pace. Those were very few and far between. [Tyson]: Yeah. [Ben]: And so it was a different, and then long runs every weekend would be, you know, 18 to
[Ben]: 20 miles and running six minute pace. So, not hard, hard long runs, but moving long [Ben]: runs. Whereas, with Ray Tracy, he spreads everything out a little bit more and it's more [Ben]: of like a 10-day cycle. And so, the mileage was a lot higher. I was probably running an [Ben]: additional 20 miles a week, rolling seven day. And the workouts were faster.
[Tyson]: Huh. [Ben]: And so a workout under Tracy leading up would be, [Ben]: what would be one, 10 times 600 meters in 131, and then a few 300s quick afterwards. [Ben]: Or he did a lot of... [Ben]: He liked the two by 20 minute tempos a lot and he liked a lot of mile and a half
[Ben]: repeats. And so it was a different, it was a more grinding without question. Ray Tracy [Ben]: was a lot more grinding of a workout whereas Kugin was a lot of bopping around between [Ben]: run fast, run fairly relaxed, run fast. [Tyson]: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting that even the earlier one, it still sounds like you were [Tyson]: covering quite a few miles. Like I know you said, [Ben]: Oh yeah.
[Tyson]: sorry, I've got the coach's names muddled up. I can't remember which one was before and [Tyson]: which one was after, but the earlier one sounded like you [Ben]: Kugen. [Tyson]: were still ticking off, [Ben]: Yeah. [Tyson]: that Coogan, you're still ticking off quite a few miles. [Ben]: Oh yeah. [Tyson]: And I love the fact that you were saying you weren't doing anything too incredibly fast.
[Tyson]: There'd be so many audience members discuss it at you. that you mentioned the second [Tyson]: set of five by a K were two 45s. [Ben]: Eh. Heh heh heh. [Tyson]: But I guess it's all in context of the times that you were running. But [Ben]: Yeah. [Tyson]: yeah, so on a weekly sort of rolling average, what were you doing in terms of miles [Tyson]: with Kugen in [Ben]: So [Tyson]: comparison?
[Ben]: Kugen would probably be closer to 90 to 95, probably average-wise. And under Ray [Ben]: Tracy, it would be 115 to 120. [Tyson]: So what's that 860? Oh, so close to 200 kilometers, or I don't know if you know [Tyson]: your metric system well, but I think, is that right? 160K is 100 miles. Sorry, 100
[Tyson]: miles is 160K, yeah. Oh, so you were, man, that's, like in terms of going back to [Tyson]: the time consumption element, that's where the Nordic skiers gotta come at in you, [Tyson]: because [Ben]: Yeah. [Tyson]: that's a huge time commitment. So in terms of doubles and things like that, what [Tyson]: would you be doing for your double [Ben]: I mean, [Tyson]: runs? [Ben]: I double all the time.
[Tyson]: Yeah. [Ben]: Like a 12.5, 12 miles in the morning, five in the afternoon was a standard easy day. [Tyson]: Yes. [Ben]: Yeah. [Tyson]: That's unbelievable. And did you feel like your body, well obviously it was responding [Tyson]: well in the sense that you ran fast off that, but was that something you were able [Tyson]: to maintain for a long time? [Ben]: Um, I was with Ray for maybe five years, I want to [Tyson]: Gee. [Ben]: say. Um, but doing race training solo was very challenging.
[Tyson]: I'm not sure if you can hear [Ben]: And so, uh, I was getting burnt out, um, at the end, um, doing, doing that training [Ben]: solo, [Tyson]: me. [Ben]: uh, doing it with other people was fine. Like when I had Dan Kurtz as a training partner, [Ben]: um, It was fine, but doing that work solo was very challenging. Because Kugen's [Ben]: workouts were so much more change of speed, mentally it's a lot easier to do that
[Ben]: by yourself. Because even if you're tired, you can go and hop out and do a 20 minute tempo [Ben]: by yourself and still getting good work. And all the fast stuff was quite short in duration. [Ben]: Um, Ray Tracy loved the workout where you have to grind one extra lap on the track [Ben]: than you actually want to. And it makes you very tough and it makes you very strong, [Ben]: no doubt. Um, he's had great success and, and I ran well under him, but that's hard
[Ben]: to do solo. And, and when I had training partners that helped me through majority of [Ben]: the workouts, um, Ray Tracy's workouts were much more manageable and fun. But not [Ben]: as much, completely, it's all of them. [Tyson]: Yeah, did your body hold up well in terms of injury? It sounds like just the fact [Tyson]: that you've ran so fast and been able to endure so much of this just long mileage [Tyson]: style training, or at least from my perspective it sounds very long miles, that
[Tyson]: you were naturally a pretty strong guy. Did you struggle with injuries at all [Tyson]: or did you get away with it pretty easily? [Ben]: I've gotten very lucky in not having many injuries that actually take me out. But, [Ben]: I mean, I'm a runner so I never, I don't think I ever had a week where I wasn't in pain [Ben]: running. And, you know, most mornings I wouldn't be able to, doing the track workouts,
[Ben]: I wouldn't be able to, you know, walk to the bathroom in the morning normally. I'd [Ben]: be hobbling [Tyson]: Hehehehehehe [Ben]: about. It'd take me a while to warm up. And it wasn't until I did my first marathon [Ben]: build with Ray that the paces came way down slower, right? And the mileage went up [Ben]: even more, but the body responded to that even more. And that could just been from
[Ben]: age. But that's when I stopped being in so much pain all the time, is when we kind [Ben]: of got off the track and started doing a little bit more longer distance training. [Tyson]: Yeah, and what do you got your eyes on at the moment? Are you still ironing off [Tyson]: some good marathons? [Ben]: Ah, we'll see. So, currently nothing's on the schedule. I raced Boston this past spring, [Ben]: it went terribly. Oh [Tyson]: I didn't see. You don't have to tell [Ben]: yeah.
[Tyson]: me, but what went wrong there? [Ben]: Oh, who knows? [Tyson]: Ha ha ha. [Ben]: It was one of those ones where you start the start and you get about a mile in and you [Ben]: know right from there it's gonna be a very long [Tyson]: Ugh. [Ben]: day. It almost felt like the only way I can describe it to myself is I went in with [Ben]: the gas tank half full. I never felt like I... And it wasn't that I was not eating
[Ben]: well leading in or tapered down. I did both of those, but it just didn't feel like [Ben]: I was fully energized right from the start and it was a very long slog. I think [Ben]: I ran 216, 217. But it was quite brutal and I was so burnt out that I'm just now getting [Ben]: back into resemblance of training. [Tyson]: Yeah. [Ben]: I've been exercising, I've been running 60 to 80 miles a week, but just now is when [Ben]: I'm starting to feel life back in my body.
[Tyson]: I know you mentioned the finish time, but even though you felt so average Did you [Tyson]: still go out at a pace like we what did you go through half in? [Ben]: Oh no, I was out by then. In Boston by, what is it, seven miles? I was like, I'm full [Ben]: on bonked. I'm not going to make it to the finish line. Yeah, [Tyson]: That's it. [Ben]: it was a rough, rough race. Yeah. [Tyson]: What have you run for a marathon?
[Ben]: I raced, that was my second marathon. I raced New York City as my debut And would [Ben]: we run there? I don't know, 212 I think or something [Tyson]: Oh, [Ben]: like [Tyson]: wow, [Ben]: that. [Tyson]: because not [Ben]: I was [Tyson]: renowned [Ben]: seventh [Tyson]: to be a super quick race either. It's quite [Ben]: No [Tyson]: twist and turn isn't it?
[Ben]: Yeah [Tyson]: I remember whenever an Aussie goes over there to run, I'm like, oh, they're obviously [Tyson]: there for, they've been paid to be there [Ben]: Yeah, [Tyson]: or they're there for prize money because [Ben]: exactly. [Tyson]: no one's going there to break PBs are they? [Ben]: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. [Tyson]: So if you like, assume I mean that I know you said you're taking it easy and exercising [Tyson]: it 90 miles a week or whatever it was, but [Ben]: Yeah.
[Tyson]: if you were to start targeting another marathon, what are you? Like, have you got [Tyson]: your eyes on next year at all in Paris? Like, are you looking to qualify? [Ben]: To be honest, the idea of racing the Olympics is not something that sparks anything [Ben]: in me. [Tyson]: Well. [Ben]: So I think a major marathon would be more interesting to me than say the Olympic [Ben]: marathon. So yeah, maybe redemption at Boston.
[Tyson]: It's funny you say that though, because I often look at the world of tennis and you [Tyson]: look at the four majors that they have in the tennis world. Like a Wimbledon means [Tyson]: so much more to a tennis player than an Olympic title. And I don't know that you
[Tyson]: can make that comparison directly with distance running. But I think, like if it's [Tyson]: a Berlin marathon or a London marathon, it'd be interesting to speak to a number of [Tyson]: athletes about, I mean, you can't really get past the childhood dream of the Olympics [Tyson]: for a lot of people, [Ben]: No, [Tyson]: but. [Ben]: but financially, a world marathon major victory is a whole lot more lucrative [Tyson]: the show. [Ben]: than an Olympic medal for the marathon.
[Tyson]: probably true in tennis as well. I mean, [Ben]: Yeah. [Tyson]: they're not taking too much from an Olympic victory comparison to sort of a Wimbledon. [Ben]: Exactly. [Tyson]: Nah, awesome, man. And in terms of your coaching now, like I've been enjoying [Tyson]: the last couple of days, having a good look at your website and seeing what you've [Tyson]: created [Ben]: Yeah. [Tyson]: over there in the coaching front. [Ben]: Oh yeah.
[Tyson]: Man, did you want to speak to that a little bit? I'll make sure at the start of [Tyson]: this people hear about it and I'll have the show notes and everything linked to [Tyson]: it for people interested. But I mean, it'd be interesting to hear it from you what [Tyson]: you've [Ben]: Yeah, no. So we launched out this. It's a club northwards athletics. And we're just [Ben]: trying to showcase the upper valley is what we call it, the area that we live in.
[Ben]: And we think it has some of the best training in all of the United States. And so [Ben]: in ideal world, we're going to try to get kind of like an elite training center group [Ben]: here, but also want to really emphasize just running in general. And so a lot of community [Ben]: outreach, we do a weekly group run in the area. We just launched a race series through [Ben]: Strava [Tyson]: I saw that. [Ben]: in the, in the, in the area. So it's a lot of exciting and, and doing some coaching
[Ben]: as well, which has been a lot of fun. And yeah, it's, we're trying to, trying to [Ben]: grow it out. [Tyson]: Who put your website together? It looks awesome. I'm such a fan for a nice website. [Tyson]: And I looked at [Ben]: Oh [Tyson]: yours, [Ben]: yeah? [Tyson]: and it [Ben]: Oh [Tyson]: looks [Ben]: thanks. [Tyson]: as though it's been done professionally. And I looked at yours and thought, okay, mine [Tyson]: needs to be touched up a little.
[Ben]: No, you're being too kind. No, that's just us, the three of us on the team just chipping [Ben]: away at it. [Tyson]: You've nailed it, was it Squarespace? [Ben]: Yeah, it's just Squarespace. Yeah. [Tyson]: Wow, good job, I'm gonna have to go and do some research on the template and you [Tyson]: might see some. [Ben]: Exactly. [Tyson]: No, awesome man, well, hey, I won't hold you up, but mate, thanks so much for coming [Tyson]: on. So good to be able [Ben]: Yeah.
[Tyson]: to pick your brain and hear a little bit more about the story behind the results. [Tyson]: It's, I mean, I've admired your runs from a distance for quite a while since back [Tyson]: in the coldest days. So it's nice to actually get a chance to sit down and have [Tyson]: a chat here. [Ben]: Yeah, well thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure. Yeah, [Tyson]: Awesome, [Ben]: a lot [Tyson]: man. [Ben]: of fun. [Tyson]: Hey, we'll leave it there. I'll see you later, everybody.
[Ben]: All right, thank you. [Tyson]: Awesome, man, I'll cut that one.