Hello, everyone and welcome to relationships rule. I'm very excited this week to have my guest, Meredith Grundy, who's here from New York, New York City, if I'm not mistaken. Yes, yes. Yes. So welcome. First of all, welcome to the show. Thank you. You're very welcome. Meredith is just another beautiful example of someone I met on LinkedIn. And I just love that right. I love Yeah, that, you know, we start with a very small connection, will you connect with me, and
then have a conversation and it just worked. So I was so excited to meet you. So what I would love for you to do, Meredith first is just give my audience a little understanding of your story, your background story, because what I'm going to say first of all, is that Meredith went from acting to speaking but in such a different way, and specializes now in public speaking and presentation skills. And I'm ready to dive in on that. But I want my audience to know your background where
how this happened. How did you go from that world of improv and acting to being a speaker and a facilitator
of a very windy road? That's how
to be a squiggly line, very
much squiggly line? Yeah, with some loop de loops in there. Yeah, I have always loved being on a stage, I found it really liberating as a dancer, as a young kid. But I was always that kid that was terrified of speaking up in class because I was afraid of sounding stupid or saying the wrong thing that happened in the answer, and so forth. And so I really found liberation being on stage and just using my body to tell a story, if you will, and the music and the choreography.
And there was one particular dance where my dance teacher for a performance asked all of us to come up with a line of text, which was what do you want to be when you grow up? And mine was because I was obsessed with Wonder Woman. I said, when I was when I grew up, I want to be just like Wonder Woman. And I did this double turn and, and landed on both feet and said it
loud and proud from the stage. And it was from there that someone came up to me and said, after the performance that I should take acting classes, I think at the time I was about 12. So I was like, Okay, sure. But what I found in that was, and it took me a while to kind of figure out that this was the stepping stone for me starting to feel more confident, using my voice. And I had, I had the script, of course, somebody else's words to hide behind. But it still built this confidence
for myself. And then later on after college, and I danced my whole my whole way through high school and college and did theater and Beekman. It was after college, I went to Chicago, I moved to San Francisco first then to Chicago, where I was doing experimental theater, using improv improvisational physical improvisational forms, and devise to work which is making creating your own theatrical projects. So I wasn't always working from a pre written
script. And then at that point, so I've had a very like, again, loopty loop. I love a lot of different kinds of kinds of theatrical expressions, if you will, on the forms within those. But I got to Chicago and I moved there on purpose because I wanted to study improv, I want to study specifically improv comedy. So I interned my way through this place called IO in Chicago, which is the home of the Herald. And I was also
teaching after school programs. And I happened to be co teaching an after school program with one of the CO CO associated a co founder, I don't know what her title was Associate Member, let's say that of the Second City. And she said, Hey, we're starting this Kids program at the second city, would you want to be one of the new instructors that helps us develop the curriculum for that. So then they brought me in, and I became an associate faculty member of the Second City and I taught the
very first kids class that they ever offered there. And from there, I started to really love teaching improv and not just teaching it to kids, but teaching it to adults as well. And then I started teaching in the corporate world. And I was teaching improv on communication and heightened listening skills and building trust, and all those awesome things that those fun games teach that have actual, there's no real world consequences, but all of the lessons learned are incredibly
applicable. And it was from there where I started coaching people in public speaking. Wow, well, and I loved it. You
know, it feels like as as I've, as my observation of people who do people who are actors, okay actors improv people that generally they are camera shy as themselves. And they don't like to talk about themselves and
they are in maybe not maybe introverted. I don't know if that's the right term to use here, but, but when they are somebody else as an in their acting, they become a different person, because that's gives them the confidence that they don't have as themselves, which I think is really interesting, because it seems to me that you could be wrong, but you you are developing those other skills as well about being confident in yourself and looking at business at like, there's there's not
that direct line between improv at Second City and corporations and standing on stages and teaching people to speak. That's not a direct thing for sure. So were you taking business at university as well or No, it just so what inspired that like was it just,
I think my father, I grew up with a father who had very much an entrepreneurial spirit, and he was a financial manager. And he was very, very much in the corporate world. And I remember, I remember once, when I was living in San Francisco, he and his buddies, his colleagues, I should say, and buddies, all came for some sort of a conference, and they were all staying at the Marriott. And I remember going up to the concierge room at the Marriott
to hang out with them. And I was really intrigued by what they did for a living. And I was always really intrigued at why it was so confusing. Well, I always, I would always hear people titles. And I'm like, so you do what? And so I have always been incredibly curious about that question of why is it so complicated? Why do we and, and furthermore, I noticed that not only does that get carried in the job descriptions when you're applying for jobs and in the titles itself, but then that
also gets carried into how they present to customers. I love it. You don't necessarily know what the heck they're talking about. So I feel like my job is and I would say this, my dad all the time when he was still alive. I'd be like, just talk to me, like, I'm five, like, just break it down. And that was sometimes really hard for him to do. And I think that's what's really hard
for a lot of people to do. And so it's not about talking down to people or being condescending, it's just about what's important.
Yes, yeah. That so what I was gonna say when you mentioned your dad right away, I because I was thinking about a different way of coming at it. But but when I was growing up, my dad was always saying to me, do something you can fall back on, you know, make sure you can, you know, fend for yourself and look, right, because theater definitely probably wasn't it at the time. God. Oh, I mean, my sister did a similar thing. She went, she left here and went to use, she was always in Fine Arts
at UBC. She at university, she was acting, she was singing, she was in a folk group and all of this stuff. And she went to LA and she got her Master's in Fine Arts at UCLA, and she never came back. Then she started, you know, pounding the pavements to get auditions and so on. And she ended up in I think I asked you about this Kentucky Fried Theatre, which is an improv group out of LA.
Yeah, yeah. It asked me about that. So
she was doing that, and she was doing to audition stuff. Essentially, in the end, she couldn't make any money out and she didn't like the rejection. So she ended up on the other side of the business doing. She was an agent for kids for a long time. And then she was in another business around that in the entertainment industry, but you know, it
everyone has to find their way. But it was that, you know, she still lights up when she does things like that, you know, in front of my granddaughter, you know, doing a puppet or doing something you just see her light up with those kinds of things. But the improv thing I'm really fascinated about because I think I'm very on is just as a word on animated, not an animated when I'm on stage. And I've been on stage doing presentations, so
I've been scared stiff. And I remember thinking things like find a face in the audience, you know, and just focus on that person to that, you know, because then you can speak to them and feel more comfortable and it does work. So when you're taking Okay, wait, I getting all excited here. So I let's put this into a real question. What are some common challenges or fears that you've observed in your clients when it comes to public speaking and how do you help them overcome these
obstacles? So that's the bigger picture of what I was trying to say. Because I think yes, yeah,
the common obstacles and fears, I, I feel that a lot of people come to me thinking they know what their common fears and pain points are. But then when you start to dig a little bit deeper, it's more than that. So I would say most people will come to me and say, I need to get better at not using filler words, or I have anxiety, which is real. And it's so real, that it's paralyzing. I have people who have come to me who are really excited about they can see themselves on a
stage and delivering that keynote. But I but what's interesting to me is that I don't think people realize the amount of work that goes into cultivating a presence in that way. And it can start to feel really vulnerable and really scary for people. And so there's lots of different layers. I think that when I work with clients, some of its pretty straightforward. Some people are like, just help me with my presentation. I got, I got I got a I got it. You know, I gotta
have this done in a month. Yeah, thanks. I got some people who are seasoned, and they just need me to help polish them. But and then I have those people who come in there. And it's almost like it's, it's a, it's a, it's a gentle approach to getting them to where they want to be. So I hope that answered your question. But I feel like sometimes it's much more layered.
It does. But I'd love to hear a couple of stories. So. So I know that you work a lot a lot in the tech industry. And yeah, yeah, and I remember doing training, I'm more of a trainer than a speaker. And I remember training. A lot of people back in the day, it wasn't so much tech as it is now. But it was like the the the engineers and the implementers, at the telephone company, they had to come and do this training with me, I worked at the telephone
company as a trainer. And we did some soft skills training, I think it was and of course, they come in with their arms crossed, and they don't even care, right, they don't want to be there because it's like, but some of them then got to the levels where they had to do the training. Flights my train of thought those people are so not the, the build rapport kind of people. So you must have that must be a big job to turn them
into speakers. That's what I'm getting at. Tell me about tech people and how are you?
Yeah, for me, it's it's about first of all, convincing them in a way, showing them that less is more, because what I've and how to tell a story using data or using the architecture or whatever it is that they're developing. So for me, it's a couple of things that come in and I, I talked to them about the importance of story, and how to incorporate it, and that it doesn't need to be complicated. It could be a
very simple story. It could be a metaphor and analogy. It could be something that will connect to the information, and really hitting upon what that emotion is for the audience. Like what is the audience's pain point? And how is what you're developing going to solve that problem for them? I guess
telling them as a five year old would too. Yeah, it's a five year old, I'm guessing because Yeah. The biggest thing you just said for me there was knowing what the audience's pain points are. So doing that homework and making sure that what you have to say is going to answer that. Yes,
exactly. And you might have people of all different levels in your audience. Some people might know what you're talking about. And some people might be this is the first introduction to what you're sharing in the audience. So it's really important that it's not that you're talking to the lowest denominator, but that you're just being thorough enough, but not getting into the weeds to where everyone in that
audience can be a part of that conversation with you. So once I get them convinced that story is effective and has impact, then what I do is work with them through their deck. And that can vary depending on the industry in which I'm working some some companies are a little bit more flexible. Some companies like aI works, sometimes with doctors and pharmaceutical companies. And they everything is compliant, they have to use what they have, they can't change even the order of things. So how
do you how do you work within those limits? So that being really clear, and you're just focusing on what those key takeaways are on each of those decks, or each of those slides, I should say, and you're really clear with your introduction, you're really clear with your call to action. And oftentimes, those things the introduction this story, how you're going to present your slides, and CTA can all be kind of muddied if
they're not well practiced and prepared. And then the other thing I'll do is give them resources or tools or how to practice because I feel that people get the advice often to practice, practice, practice. But people practice differently, we learn differently. I feel like my job as a coach is to say, here are a lot of different ways that you can approach practice, and I want you to try all of them. And let's just see which one's going to work best for you. But obviously, what
you've been doing hasn't been working. So let's try something different. And I love it. It's like, it's like taking it taking something really challenging and sculpting it into something that is tangible for people. It's like a little solo performances.
Well, yes, it must be really rewarding when you know, do you when your clients has done the presentation, and they come back and say, I did it, it went really well. And now they're all excited about it. Not as afraid to do it. The next time. Do you? I think you do one on one coaching and you also do group coaching. Correct? Yeah. You do improv with your with your people? Yeah,
I do. I do. i It depends on the room. But I always like to do at least like a little icebreaker. And I don't call it improv. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. So it depends on who the audience is. But I just did one for the just this last week, having a brain fart
League, that one
thing I guess wanted to say the league, it was like, so thank you, the Junior League. In Jersey, I just did a workshop for them. And that was fun. It was all improv it was about owning owning your presence and owning your voice and owning your story. And it was super fun. And they knew they were doing improv and got up on their feet quite a bit. And then I have an improv for speakers membership program,
it's called confidently speaking. And that attracts people who are more entrepreneurs, solopreneurs, if you will, who really want to start getting better at these impromptu things that they're called to do like being on a podcast, for example, or going to a networking event and doing the one on one or even getting on a stage. And that's been really cool. Because I've had members in that group for two years now, some of them that have been there for two years
and to just see their growth. That's so cool. Yeah,
it's not easy. Definitely. I've always like I struggle when I have to actually have a script or a speech that, you know, I should know it like by rote, but I don't I can't study that way. I have to just learn my slides. I hate slides. I don't like talking to slides. And that's a whole thing by itself. Just learning how to, you know where this slide is, and where you're pointing and not standing in front of the screen? How many people do that?
I could talk about that for a while. Yeah.
Get away from that screen for God's sake, you know, and, and then building rapport with the audience. And those things are to me, just as in so much, it's so important to the whole presentation. But it struck me I struggle with having to study anymore. I don't know. Yeah. That becomes my blog. So I do I just ad lib most of the time, or at least I think I'm ad libbing probably not, but I'm taking what I see on that slide and changing it each time I do it so to speak. Yeah,
yeah, it's, you know, the the advice I always give my clients is to start first with in you mentioned this beautifully, which is start with your audience first and really identify who they are, what those pain points are, and how you're going to solve that problem, etc. And then once you've established that, then you figure out what is your objective with this particular audience? What is your end in mind? What do you want them to to have by the end of this presentation or retained by the
end of this presentation? And then once you do that, you figure out what are those key takeaways? So usually, people can only retain three to five things. So you think, okay, what are the three key takeaways that are going to lead me to that end in mind to that objective? By audience I should say, and then once you've established that outline, and you figure out those things, then you look to your slides. And then you say, Okay, what slides here are going to best support this message.
And then I always say, try to practice without the deck. And get the end just and always be practice practicing out loud. I'm always stunned at how many people still practice sitting at
their desk, just scroll through. Yeah. So always up on your feet, practicing out loud practicing, often, my client right now who's going to be doing this big speak event that I'm producing next week, I said, Okay, you are at that point now where you can just take the script, tape it on your kitchen cabinet, while you're making pasta, I want you to, I want you to deliver your
presentation out loud as you're cooking. And if you need to refer to that, because you're gonna get thrown off because something's going to happen, like the pasta sauce is gonna boil over or something, then you can refer to it, but it's just, it's about memorization is about using different muscles and memorizing in different ways. And it can be a lot of fun if we allow it to be fun. Okay. All right.
Moving on. You got me over there. I was just thinking back. I know I shared with you how I I'm obsessed by this podcast called smartlace. And you said, Okay, well, a lot of the people that they had on that they've had on that show have been improv people from Second City from wherever else, the Canadian one I forget SCTV I think it was called Groundlings, the Groundlings, all these improv people who became
Saturday Night Live regulars in their specific times. And what I've found fascinating is learning about how improv is like, it's just so clever. Like I'm, it really is a whole thing that most people don't understand. So what skills from improv would you say, are the biggest ones that you take over into what you're doing now? Because it is a whole thing, right?
It's a whole thing. That's so many great questions there. First of all, improv is like, I think it should be a required course, in every school, I just really do. It builds your adaptability muscle, so that you can think on your feet if something goes wrong. It helps you build trust, in a way because you're taking, you're taking risk. You are sharing sometimes things that might feel a little vulnerable. You're laughing with people laughter builds trust. It helps
with ideation and the brainstorming process. That whole idea of Yes, sand. Yes, can be interpreted in a couple of different ways in healthy ways, right? One is, so when with ideation, it's like I can't tell you how many times I'll talk to teams of like, okay, when you get into a, you're in the brainstorm phase, but then somebody says, I don't like that idea. And then it's no longer a brainstorm. That's not a brainstorm would sense someone says, Yes, but judgment, right?
Yeah, right. It's about getting everything up onto that whiteboard. Or however, you're doing that brainstorm, because you never know, that bad idea might spawn the good idea.
So every idea counts. And we're brainstorming, every
idea counts. It also helps with inclusivity. So making sure that all the voices can be heard at the table. I mean, it just has so many ways to find ways to incorporate humor, for example, into your presentation. So maybe you stand there with a recorder and you just off the cuff, think of some things off the top of your head, so builds that skill so that you feel more comfortable to have that ability to do that. There's so many wonderful things that improv, it
helps you communicate better with groups of people. The other portion of yes and is it's not about necessarily always agreeing with the person that you're in a conversation with. And this is great for q&a s for examples that you may not agree with the point of view of the person asking the question or the statement that they might have offered, but that you can at least acknowledge them. So that too, I feel is like a strong lesson. Hmm.
Interesting. Can you tell me a great story of transformation of one of your clients, like Can you share any same thing come to mind?
I well, I always I always talk about my client, Tina, and she doesn't mind that they talked about her because she showed up in confidently speaking two years ago. And she lives here in New York City and she is a entrepreneur, she and her husband co own a business together. And the very first exercise that we did she just shut down, shut down. But she kept showing up and She hadn't been on a podcast. She hadn't been really speaking, she's started to get really comfortable with networking at
that point. But she wasn't doing any of the other stuff to build her business. And she had a goal and she was going to do it. She wanted to do a TED talk. She has done her TED talk yet, which is totally fine. Because she wrote a book. She did. She did a 15 minute talk. For her book launch. She has been on over 70 podcasts this year alone. She has done numerous LinkedIn lives. She is about to do a speak event next week, where she's going to stand on stage and tell her story for 10
minutes. And the woman is on fire. It's like a totally different person. Double. Yeah. That's,
that's amazing. So the power that she has gained as a person is well, confidence. Everything is just Yeah,
I love great. But I what I want to say to that, though, is that she did the work. Yes. It's not an overnight, quick fix. She does the work she puts in the reps. Yeah,
that's what it takes for sure. Now, with everything, I know that, you know, since we've sort of come back out of COVID, that everyone's rushing to go into face to face things again, although I'm not that person. I, I went out last night to play bridge. And we were at a room with like, I didn't know, for about 50 people, 60 people. And I didn't know a lot of them. And I felt like it was too crammed. And I kind of wanted to leave I didn't but I felt uncomfortable.
So I still feel that sometimes. But anyway, my issue. So so some of us are still still focused on the digital world. And that seems to be enough and fine for me. What do you what advice do you give to people who are looking to enhance their influence and their persuasiveness as speakers? Still virtual? Because? Yeah,
yeah, no, I think that's a great question. Because I do think that things are going to still stay partly like that I do. Because, for example, I've got two organizations, the Junior League, and then her workplace, which is a co working space here in New York City. Both of them
asked me to do a virtual version and a live version. So I think that that's not going away, you know, the thing I always say to the people that want to kind of stay in this virtual world, is just make sure that you are showing up in the best way you possibly can. Because even though you get to hide behind the screen, your body language and all of those things still
matter. And not to get too relaxed, which I see often, often, even to I mean, how many years later now is it that I still will show up on calls and there's a doctor backlit and it looks like he's in like, some sort of witness protection program, you know. And so I just stress to people like your posture still eats check your body language, check your
posture, check your lighting, check your sound. If you don't have a desk that can raise up yet figure out how you can raise up your, your monitor computer so that you're standing when you're delivering makes a huge difference when you stand and deliver versus when you're sitting. Yeah. So it's little things like that. And then don't don't take for granted that you're virtual. You still need to have story. You can't be dependent on the slides.
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. You know, it's funny made me think, certainly, it was always interesting over than when you watch the news broadcasts, local versus, say, CNN or something like that, where, you know, everyone was for three years behind, you know, on a zoom screen, and how some people I remember when they were interviewing Pam Shriver was before the US Open. It wasn't just this last season, it was a couple years ago, and she was sitting in front of her closet,
and her closet was open. So that looked like a bookshelf or something. It was just a disaster. But you know, that's still happening, right news, people who've got this one guy locally, he's got these, these bookshelf is bookshelf behind him. And he's got stick up pictures from his kids and children's books on on the it's the whole thing is just a mess.
They are I think that would have been a whole new career actually, for people to go and, you know, stayed engaged those rooms for these people that were on every day, but it didn't happen but anyway, that's an Got the presentation skills? But it did make me think of that. It's like, you're right.
Well, it is about presentation skills. I think I think you bring up a really great point because people get distracted by the littlest things. So if they're like looking at post it notes and pictures of the kids, and I bet you can't remember a thing that he said, But you posted notes.
It's true. It's like my husband would never have noticed the, the venue or at all, there were the the whole picture. I'm so busy looking at what everything looks like, that I'm not paying attention to what he's saying, because it's boring. Anyway, the new Yeah, no, well,
it's, it's, you know, it's so funny, because I go back and forth. I'm not a big fan of virtual backgrounds. I am not either, I find them very, and a lot of people use him and they put their company logo on there and the whole thing disappears out and then their hand disappears, like ghost out. You know, for the longest time I had my setup was you could see my bed in the background. And I was, I saw that I know. And it drove me batty, drove me batty, and I
tried all these different angles. So I have fixed that since then. This is still
lovely. looks lovely. I've always wanted to get a beautiful screen to put behind me and I just have never found one. I've seen people do that very well. But because my door look great. No, but my door shouldn't be there. And I have the natural light is right here. And that's the best way for my desk. But yeah, anyway, we all have I have
I have a New York City radiator? Ah, yes. Created the bed in for a radiator. But, you know, it's kind of nice. Okay, it's
all good. So I wanted to ask you, before we go a couple of things. So I mean, I, I, I shouldn't do this on this interview. I will do it separately, because I'm
fascinated with all the improv people and everything. So I didn't really want to go down that rabbit hole, but but with the people that you are coaching now, what would you say the three biggest mistakes now that people are making them, we should start looking at ourselves, you know, to improve with our speaking and, and training and facilitating
the three biggest mistakes. One is that people don't look at their presentation as a performance. And it is a performance. It's a form of performance. So I always say to people look at it as it's a composition, you're taking people through a journey. People need to start really getting better at their introductions, I would say most introductions you have, we have very short attention spans. And so your introduction needs to hook me right away and engage me right
away. So for example, instead of starting off with Hi, my name is Janice Porter, and I'm here today. And so thank you for having me, and I'm going to share with you the three principles of LinkedIn. You could start off with a story and share a story that has an emotional connect for your audience, and then introduce yourself for the credibility piece. And then I would say that, the other piece that I've noticed is, people aren't very clear with call to actions,
either. So they can tend to and I'm guilty of this too, because you get to the end of the presentation all of a sudden you'll. And that's why I think it needs to be well practiced. Yeah, it's, this is what I need you to leave doing or thinking. Here's my one QR code to get in touch with me not like, Here's my email, here's my LinkedIn. Here's my offer. Yes, exactly. You know, part of it
is because we don't like selling, and it's selling themselves. Right. And so that's part of it. But you're absolutely right. I think those are all really key. And I, I want to this isn't about me. Okay, so, um, I think I made me think of one other question, though, when you were saying
that about the introduction. And that's one thing I did learn, and maybe from reading some of your stuff, or an end or somebody else's, because that's one of the things I remember, don't start with the boring stuff about you, because they're not they're really for that purpose, make it about them. And that's really what I teach on LinkedIn, as well make it about your audience so that they're hooked into maybe you're the person that can help me, right. So they read on. So that's, I
think one of the big ones. So last question before I let you go. And this is for me, this is selfish, because I love that when you use this word earlier, but I love the word curiosity. It's my favorite. And I am one of those very curious people. Pull. So the question is two parts. First part is, do you believe that curiosity is innate or learned? And what are you most curious about today? That's part two. And there's no right or wrong question.
Is it innate or learned? I think I Well, it's so funny because I think I'm a special snowflake. Course. Because I was raised with two very pragmatic parents. So I was that's where my brain went. I, I would say for myself, it was innate. I don't think I learned it. I think I was born into this world with a creative sensibility. And creative types tend to be curious souls. So that is a fantastic question. I do however, feel that curiosity can be learned. Okay. But one
needs to want to learn it. And then the second part of that question, what am I curious about today? i The Okay, I'll go with I always say first thought best thought which is an Allen Ginsberg quote, I will say that I am curious about how in my own life, I can simplify my own curiosities even more, because I'm so curious, I tend to get involved in many, many things. Because I genuinely want to know more about whatever it's not about FOMO it's just genuine curiosity about like, what would
that be like? What if I say yes to that?
I love it. Because I think that way, too. I think that's brilliant. Because yeah, I can learn more I can be you know, like, Tell me more, but it for me, sometimes it's going down those rabbit holes, a little bit too much. But I love that answer. That's, that's amazing. Thank you. For me, that all started with a book that I read by because I tend to ask most of my guests that question. And it's been fun and a book I
read by Brian Grazer. Called a curious mind. Do you know you know who Brian Grazer is?
I know him. I know his name. I haven't read that book. Okay. Brian Grazer,
Ron Howard imagine entertainment as a producer and director. Friday Night Lights splash A Beautiful Mind and I you know zillion movies. He's he's really brilliant. But it's an intro. It's his story. But it's really all stemmed from curiosity. And it was really fascinating because his grandma is Bubba. Back in the you know, in the day his little Jewish grandmother taught him to be curious and are so either taught him to be curious or crit influenced his
his curiosity and it influenced it. So encouraged it that's a word of encouragement. And so he does a lot of interviews with people what before he became famous and learns from all of them, and it's really fascinating. But anyways, fun. So that's where that came from. So thank you for participating in that. And thank you for being here. Thank you for your wisdom around speaking and, and being the best person you can be. Because when you can learn to do those things. I think you just
totally improve yourself in so many ways. So and we're always a work in progress, right? So always Yeah, it's really fun to talk to you and and appreciate your time and where can my audience find you? Well,
they can find me on LinkedIn at Meredith grand die. You can also find me at grande coaching. And I have several Tik Tok videos. If your listeners or Tik Tok fans, you can find me at grande coaching.
I'm afraid to go there, because I'll never put them out. But I have to go look at them now. Yeah, I seriously, but it's such a fun place. So and I do recommend to my audience that you visit. Meredith website. It's a beautiful brand new website that she has, and there's lots of opportunities there to learn from her with her blog. And if you're you do mostly in person training, or do you do online training as well, you both everybody, they're perfect.
Again, thank you so much. And thank you to my audience for being here. And I've just lost that is so weird. The recording button has moved. It's disappeared. totally disappeared. There we go. Okay. It did. So, thank you for being here and remember to stay connected and be remembered