John, Hello everyone, and welcome back to relationships rule, where we explore how authentic human connection is the key in thriving business. Today's guest John Ray is someone whose work truly resonates with my own core belief that relationships come first. John is a pricing strategist, a business advisor, and author of this amazing book, The generosity mindset. He is also the host of the price and value Journey podcast on which I was a guest last week and had so
much fun. In this episode, we're going to look at how generosity, when it's sincere and strategic, can be a powerful force for building trust, creating impact and growing a sustainable service based business. Whether you're a solo consultant, coach or small firm professional, I think you're going to love what we're talking about today. So welcome to the show. John
Janice, it's a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. Thanks also for coming on my show. You were fantastic. Wow. Well,
it was fun, and I really enjoyed it. I came off that interview on a high because you're a great interviewer, and I learned in your book that you like whatever his name was, Ken. Was it the guy that bought the Remington company? You bought the company and became a podcast host. That's right, right? You
know, loved it. So much about the company. Yeah, that's kind of my story on podcasting,
right? And you've been, I thought I was pretty proud of 300 episodes. You've done. How many 100 episodes? A couple of 1000, I think, well,
I've, I've done as a host. I've done around 1200 or so. I don't know the exact number. It's around 1200 or so, but now when you get to 300 episodes, you're a champion. So congratulations on that. Oh
yeah, no, I wasn't looking for that. I was just pretty impressed with what you do, and you did such a great job as well. Okay, I'd like to dig into this book, because I really enjoyed reading it. And I think it's, it's, there's a lot of lessons in it for small business owners and entrepreneurs that that I was reading and going, Oh yeah, that makes so much sense. And I also, I think what made it easy for me. And what I loved reading were the stories. I love the
stories. And, you know, that's the whole thing, right? If people can can identify it with the stories, then it sinks in a little bit better. So, first of all, I think you were in corporate right? For many, many years, yes, yes, as most of us were, and then right leave corporate and and some of us thrive, and some of us struggle for a while. And I had a guest on my show actually just went live today, yes, today, yesterday, David Shriner Khan, and he talks about corporate
refugees and how he helps them succeed in business. And so, you know, a lot of us are corporate refugees and and trying to figure it out. So you must have figured it out early, if you then turn to helping other service providers. So what, what was it for you? Did you know when you left corporate this is what you were going to do? Or did you have a little struggle along the way? Oh,
thank you for giving me so much credit, like I knew what I was doing. I really I'm so grateful for that. I'm hiring
you as my PR person. Okay? Now, no, of course not. You know, I had my struggles and and, I mean, I had, you know, there was a lot, like a lot of people there, in corporate there, there was a lot that I was perfectly suited to do, and I've always had a mindset around relationships and the importance of relationships, But that becomes a lot sharper for you when you're out on your own, in your own business, and you're having to, you know, as the old saying goes, eat what you kill.
You know, there, there's, there's that piece of it. And let me tell you where my nose really got bloodied. It was, it's, it was in pricing. Yeah, so, you know, I've I've got all
the T shirts, I've got all I've made all the mistakes. And here's what I learned, is that what I saw is my own problems with this, and what I also saw is my clients that had problems with pricing, and that made me passionate about it, and I got really passionate about it as I dug into it and realized there's not a lot of places for a business owner to to to solve that problem. So if you for example, this is just 1v Yet,
the book, small business for dummies. I hate the title, yeah, but, but it's got 250 pages, and a grand total of four and a half of those 250 pages is devoted to pricing. Wow, yes, says it all. And it's that those four four pages are written at about 80,000 feet. I mean, there's not much you can do with what's there. So the point is, is that there's, like no place to go. And so that's, that's what got me passionate about it. And I just saw so many people struggling. And eventually, of
course, as I got into it. It ultimately led to the book.
Yeah, I was just going to say, when did you write this book?
Well, it was released at the end of 2023
okay, okay, so it was a COVID project, possibly,
no, no, no. It was, you know what it was? Well, it was kind of a COVID project, you might say, in a way. You know, a lot of us came out of COVID saying all those things that we think we need to do, that we boxes, we need to check. It's really time to get get at it. And that was what this was for me, is, hey, this is time to get at it, sure.
Okay, so we met on LinkedIn, which I love, and what attracted me to read further was the picture of your book in the banner on LinkedIn, because I love the title, the generosity mindset, a journey to business success by raising your confidence value and prices. So let's start there, confidence and value first and then pricing. Okay? Because the biggest aha for me was that value conversation. So can you just sort of save with the big let's start with the big
picture. What does this mean to you and the generosity mindset? And let's, let's just start there. Yeah,
sure. So it's a bit counterintuitive, is it not? I mean that that generosity, that generosity leads to better pricing, huh? Yeah, yeah, right. And I guess that that helps me dispense of one misconception right off the bat is we're not talking about giving anything away, per se. Well, yeah, sure, you can be strategic in the things that you do for others, but what we're talking about here is getting out of your own head and in serving others first and being generous using a much
broader definition of that word, look out for others. First, what? What are their needs, hopes, wants, desires, fears that you can help them with, regardless of whether that benefits you in the short run or not.
And, right? Yeah, yeah, totally agree. Yeah, right.
And if you're known as that person, and if you follow this falsely, by the way, you will be that person. Because the truth of the matter is, there's not a lot of competition on the relationship Street.
It's strange, but true, right? Yes, right, despite
all your efforts, after 300 podcasts, Janice, you know, there's just not a lot of people that really do it. There's a lot of people that say they're do it, but if you really do it, you're known for being a connector. You're known for being a person that looks out for other people. And what that does is it brings people back to you. The universe wants to help you.
The Law of Reciprocity, right? The Law of
Reciprocity? Yeah, exactly. And
it's funny, because, as you know, I'm involved with a greeting card company that has been part of my world for 16 years now, and that's just we, we preach that all the time. It's like, send out to give. Don't send out to get because you send out to give, you don't know the universe will come back 1010, fold, and it won't necessarily be from that same person. So that's the philosophy that I've I've sort of looked at for free or actually not looked at, but,
but walk that walk for this many years. So in the in the first part of your book, and when you're talking about value, the value that that you have, the sorry, that your value for, your what you do and for who you are is not necessarily the same as how you're perceived. It's perceived value. And that's huge, because I realized when I was reading this that sometimes when I'm talking to a prospect, and I'll admit it, I've been
doing this for a long time. Mind. But there are times when you go, oops, I shouldn't have done that, or I did it the wrong way, or whatever. It's never perfect. And when it comes to talking about, you know, yourself, or about getting business and or talking those, you know, pricing, all of that stuff, we forget that. It who cares about me. It's what they see and what they want to have happen, and if I don't as the if they're my prospect and I don't understand that, then I'm not
going to get anywhere, and I'm not going to satisfy them. So how do you how do you can you teach that like or is it innate? I mean, that's the thing.
Well, for some people, it is innate, but here's, here's what we've and you're a teacher, so you'll get this immediately. We are taught in a way as we're coming up that works against us. It teaches us skills and it teaches us whatever craft we have, but we are taught we're supposed to have the right answer. We're not taught how to ask questions right we're taught to give answers. And the idea here is to get skilled in asking
questions. Bingo, to be use the word you use a lot, to be curious, yeah, to ask questions, to learn where people's heads are, and not just ask a question, but follow up on that question, right? And so that's the skill we have to develop, and that is, yeah, I think it is innate for some people, but I think for a lot of us who are particularly in the professional services business, where we've got a particular expertise that we're drilled on, and we've done the work for years, and we know
the answers. For a lot of people, we're just used to spouting those out. And what I'm suggesting is to pump the brakes, and let's get into the head of our clients. And what we will find if we do that, is we will find that they see value in us, that we don't see ourselves.
And that is okay. Okay, say that Anne, they see value in us, that we don't see ourselves Correct, correct. So give me an example of that, please. Yeah. It's huge,
yeah. So for example, when we start asking questions like, well, let me tell you a story, maybe that's a way to get at this. So, yeah, so I was with a client. This may be in the book. I can't remember I put this in the book or not, but I was with a client who I had been referred to, and he's going on and on about all the great things that are going on in his business. And, you know, after a while, I'm thinking I marked this page. Oh, you did. Okay, good, yeah, yeah. I'm glad
that's in there. Yeah. He he went on and on about how wonderful everything was. And I'm thinking, why did I get referred to this person? Right? What's the problem here? Well, his spouse came in the room, and we did the introductions, and when she found out who I was, she was like, Oh my gosh, thank you so much for being here. Like, we need you so badly. And she just proceeded to, like the truth blew in the room. I mean,
right, right. And so the the his problem was not just with the business and all the things that I found out ultimately in the conversation, his problem was the spouse. She wasn't happy. And so I wasn't there just to solve his business problems or walk him through that. I was there to help a relationship that was frayed because of this business. Yeah, wow. And so now, when you start talking about that, that value is enormous.
Yes, I hear you, and you see, if we don't ask the question questions, like in a discovery call with a client, if we're not asking questions like, well, you know, how does your spouse feel about all this? See, then we don't find these things out, yeah, and we don't find out where clients see value, and what we do if we get there, what we'll see is they see much, much more value than we see ourselves, and because all we're
looking at is the job, right, right? That uses our. Skills not the outcomes that come out of the transformation that we bring.
And in what you just described is having the the skill as well. I have to call it a skill of being a really, really good listener. We know we have to know how to ask the right questions, which takes curiosity. I believe that we have to do that. And then it's about asking, and then it's about listening, and really listening. And I already today, heard you say a couple of things about me that, and we don't know
each other that well. We've had maybe three conversations, but you have come back to me with I know you're a curious person, Janice, so you've done your homework, and you know I'm a teacher, and you know you've said these things to me that make me notice, that you've paid attention. So those things are important in having that conversation, to think he understands me. He knows where I'm coming from, and so I think
the questions and the listening skills are super huge. So how do you then show that you well, because you go from the value conversation where they spill their beans here and in this example you've given, and now you've got to bring it around to how you can help them that will not just help the business, but everything else. So is that in the same conversation? Is it? Does money get talked about in that conversation? Yeah,
that's a great question. It so it depends on the client. What I would say as a general proposition is your ability to price is either constrained or enabled by the depth of the value conversation that you're willing to have with a client, and sometimes that value conversation is a couple of conversations, maybe even more, that you have over time.
If it's a client, a current client, you're always having a value conversation, I think is it's ongoing, is, you know, because you're checking in to see where the client sees value in the whatever transformation You're helping to enable. So that's, I think it really depends on your willingness to have the conversation. But then, of course, some clients are impatient, right? They want to get to what the bottom line is,
what the pricing is, and that kind of thing. And you can be herded into that because you kind of want to get there too. You want to start talking about what the scope is and all that kind of stuff. So it really there's some conversational muscle that we have to develop here, and it takes some practice. This is why I call one reason. I call my podcast the price and value journey. It's a journey. We're learning these things, right? That's true.
True, knowing when to speak price and when to when is the right time or not. Sometimes, though, they come in at the beginning, and you talk about this in the book as well, and they say, so how much do you How much do you charge? And you don't even know them. And you know that, right? So you have a great answer for that. I think you already used it once. It depends, right?
Well, yeah. I mean, if I understand your your interest in that, it here's the deal. All my clients are a little different, and they have different needs and and concerns, and we need to have a conversation about your
business. And first of all, even just to decide whether I'm the right fit, because I may not be the right fit, yeah, and, and if I'm not, I'll find a good place to refer you, but it requires a conversation, and, and, and so that I can help you understand, like, what, what the best prescription is, I guess, for your business, and then the pricing comes out of that.
So with the type of clients that you work with, are some of them in businesses where they're kind of in and out with clients, like maybe they do, you know, a few hours work
for them, and then it could be done. So because I feel sometimes that the work that I do is is just a blip, a. Along the way for these people to get them, you know, say, looking better and and using LinkedIn more effectively, because they don't really know how to use it. But I think sometimes it takes more time, or could take more time than it does, because they go as I have done in the past, where I've spent money on something to learn a system or something, and then I don't go
back for the follow ups or the, you know, the the extra classes, because I think I know what I'm doing and I don't. So how do you think there's, there's opportunity there that, and how would you go back to that opportunity so that you are making those clients more long lasting clients, and therefore better at being referral partners for you? Possibly,
yeah, that's a great question. So there are some service providers who have short term engagements. And part of what I think you have to develop is staged work for clients. So what I mean by that is and develop options around those, okay, so that's another thing I talk about in the book, is just the power of options, you know, using a good, better, best
model. I love that, yeah. So what you can do is you can take that, that model of of your the journey you take clients through and in your business is a great example where you can do a profile overhaul, but that only takes them so far on LinkedIn, right? But there are some other things that you can do, which in terms of helping them learn how to connect, build their network, that kind of thing, right? And then there's, you know, how do you know what to post? How do you do that? How you know? How
do you create content that's that's resonant, right? How do you make comments that help build your network? I mean, so this is something a lot deeper, right, right? We've just described a good, better, best model right there. And so what you can simply do is create a model that has these three options. And the good is for folks that are just getting their sea legs on LinkedIn, you might say, or have ignored it for quite some time, right? They're just not ready to take
the full plunge, right? But what happens is, is that you've those good clients, the ones that you've done that profile overhaul for, they're sitting there waiting yes to the next level, whenever they're ready. Yes and giving your skills at relationship, uh, tending, shall we say, you're going to be following up with them in a in a non salesy, elegant way to say, hey, hey, not bugging you. Just here when you're ready.
Yeah, yeah. It's good to say that it's good because I have the good better, best. It's always good for it can always be overhauled. It can always be tweaked. But I think I'm just like everybody else. I think I'm leaving money on the table. I think I need to, you know, there's only so much time
in the day. And it's funny I say that I just I'm going into a weekend this weekend where we're looking after my granddaughter, who's five, and my daughter told me last night that she went she woke up at 230 in the morning last night, never went back to bed. And I'm like, seriously, this child doesn't sleep, yeah, so I'm thinking about time in the day. It's time in the night as well, right? Anyway, no, this is all good. This is all good. So Well,
let me, let me make one other suggestion, if I can, is that this is what you what you're developing. Here is something that you're agnostic on. Where people come out is that you don't care the way you're going to price. It is you don't care whether they pick good, better or best. It's just like when you pull into Starbucks, they could care less what what particular drink you get. They could care less even though they've got preferences off what they make the most
money on, right? So that's where your head needs to be, because if you're that kind of professional of value, which you are, um. Um, people are going to come back to you. They're going to come back because, hey, this is so good. And I've gotten results out of this. I need more. I need more than what, what I signed up for, right?
No, I love it that that's that's so true. It's like, and at the same time, if they just, for example, chose the good option, and then you spent that time with them, they've built the trust. You've built the trust with them that will will also open that door to doing some more work when the time is right. Yeah, they trust you for sure. So we've talked a little bit about price already then. So there was something
else. So I was thinking about one of the stories in here. Oh, no, just a minute I it was something I should have marked. Oh, okay, this is an interesting piece. I thought selling to your own wallet. I liked that. Can you speak to that? Do you want me to read anything here?
No. I mean, yeah. I think a lot of us that have done this kind of know what we're talking about, right? That what we're doing is we've, we've got, we're pre judging whether the client is going to think this is, quote, unquote fair or not fair. I hate that word in this context. We we're deciding for the client whether they can afford it or not, yes, yes, or whether they've got the budget for it or not. And a whole big proportion of small businesses don't even keep a budget. So
please don't tell me it's not in your budget. You don't even have a budget, right?
No, if you if you feel there's enough value, you'll find the money, right? Isn't
amazing how that works and and actually, budgets are priorities. Priorities change, yes, priorities Yeah, they change based on value and value that's perceived. So that's how you have to think about that budget objection that people give you.
Yeah? Some people, somebody once said to me, it's not that I can't afford it. I choose to say, or I say I, I choose to spend my money somewhere else, right now, right? Yeah, yeah.
So, so you know, if people want it bad enough, they'll find the money. Even if it's not in the business, they'll find the money.
Yeah, so true, isn't it?
Yeah. So what we've got to get to a point is service providers, is that we're not prejudging what people can afford, how they'll pay for it, anything like that. The question is, the comparison here is the the value that that I'm delivering as a service provider relative to pricing that takes just a little piece of that value and that suddenly, this is
an investment. It becomes an investment. It becomes a a linked exchange that I'm delivering value, and you're getting a big outcome for the price that you're paying.
So in so many, oh, I'm sorry, someone's trying to get hold of me in so many service based businesses that threw me off. I Yeah, okay, I was thinking about the trap of hourly pricing. And when you are providing a service, and you're, you've already brought the value conversation, and you know, you understand where the clients coming from, and what the transformation needs to be, and how do you get because it's, it's a stickler for me sometimes
trying to think of, okay, if I'm not charging by the hour. How do I set my pricing? So can you speak to that?
Yeah, yeah. So the where you need to be is this is where the questions come in. Is getting. Clients to verbalize where they see value in transformation and how much that value is. So let's go back to our example of the guy whose business supposedly had no problems, right? And suddenly it does have problems, and the biggest one is his business
partner, his wife, yes, so, you know. So when you when I hear that, what the way I should have responded to him is to say, you know, hey, what would it look like, and if you had a lot more peaceful home life. What would that look like? And you see, you start people down the road of thinking about what transformation looks like and feels like, and how it changes
things for them. And you, what you get to is a point where it's not just about how much more money the business made, or or like if you're accountant, how much taxes you saved, or something like that, it's it's not just the the outcome of the engagement, per se. It's what you're able to do because of the transformation that is much bigger than the work itself. So what does peace at home look like? It's priceless, right? So what does that do? What that does is it, it, it's a much
higher value. It's it's value that's priceless, of course, but it increases willingness to pay
Yes, yes, I see. So
here's a little cheeky example for you. You don't think, when you factor in what the cost of college education is yes, condoms certainly don't seem more too expensive anymore, right? So see, this is the point. It's like, you've got to get to a point where people are thinking about the long term implications of the transformation and what that enables them to do with their business, with their with their
lives. What does it mean that I can take the family to Rome, Italy, where we've always wanted to go instead of, you know, the usual vacation we've always done, right? What does that mean? Yeah, right. So, see the it's these things you've got to get to, and when you can get to that, it just changes everything in terms of willingness to pay and the kind of pricing you can achieve. I
think we've come full circle, because I think that's that, again, goes back to the value conversation first. So, right? So, so when you work with a client and help them set their pricing strategies, like, how do you pick numbers out of the air if they're not based on, you know, an hourly piece, is it just adding more things, or is it just the perceived value? If that makes sense.
No, that does make sense. It's actually both so it so it's certainly getting at where clients perceive value, sharpening this the saw when it comes to asking the questions that uncover where clients see perceived value. But frankly, a lot of clients that I work with, what they what they don't see is all the different ways they and different kinds of ways they deliver their service that have value. I mean, for example, how
fast is this engagement going to work or unfold? How fast will that, right?
Okay, that's another example in your book. Yes. Okay,
so speed, yeah. So Janice, are you and I working over? You know, we're my hair is on fire to take, take care of my LinkedIn issues, yeah, and I need as much of Janice as I can get for the next two weeks. Yeah,
I had a client recently that just did that. She wanted to. She paid the top price, she said, But I have to get it done by the end of March.
There you go. Yeah. So somebody that's in a hurry, yeah, they've got a higher willingness to pay. Am I working with Janice or am I working with Janice's assistant? You know, there's, there's another one. What's my access to Janice? Okay, do I do I get email access? Only Can I call you baby, what? What's my access? See, they're all sorts. Different ways that the service is delivered.
Yeah, that's perfect. And I think you also had an example in the book as well about, I think it was the was she? It was either the the bookkeeper or it was the organizer, where you had a chart in there and you showed the percentages, and you, you, you, you're a finance guy, so you looked at the money as well. But the the chart was good. And I think that's, there's so many good things. I said there's so many good things in this book. So am I right there? Yeah, okay, well, yeah.
Well, and here's one example that I used in in in the book too, that that might be helpful is, you know, I had a garage door problem. Oh, I love this story, yeah. And long, long story short is, you know, the guy came out right that afternoon, and, you know, he could have charged me a whole lot more than He charged me. He still overcharged you. Well, he his, his, well, his problem was, is that, is that he didn't ask enough questions. Yes, understand why I was motivated
to get it done that day. Yeah, and so. And the motivation was, my wife wanted this thing done now,
do it now. Do it now. And so I would
have paid a lot more than He charged me. Yeah, he could have paid me a rush charge,
yes, yeah, yeah. Or, you know,
put that on my invoice. I would have paid it gladly. Or he could have said, you know, if you want to save some money, we can get out there next week. Yeah, and yeah,
but you know, I It's funny because you just made me think of something that I'm not going to go into in this conversation, because it's just makes my blood boil. But what I noticed about it was, when you're first dealing with some people, and it's the first exposure, it's the first transaction that you're going to have, and that's exactly what it turns out to be as a transaction. And then something goes wrong, and now you try to get it fixed, it's murder,
trying to get it fixed. Murder. Nobody cares. Nobody owns it, and nobody will call you back. And it goes on and on, and anyway, that's what I'm dealing with. So it's very annoying, and you can't do business that way. Oh, you know, well, but yeah,
well, people do and they don't forget that. What they forget is like, who's going to refer you if you do business that way? Yeah, you expecting clients to refer you? Who's going to write your Google reviews that you're COVID, that you're trying to build up. Yeah, who's going to do that? I mean, there's, there's all sorts of ways this comes back to you. Yes, exactly, yeah. And so why? Why do business that way?
I love this conversation. I think we I'm going to have to have you back, because we could go on forever, but I'm going to have to wrap it up, and I would like to ask you couple of quick fire questions at the end. One, do you I noticed you quoted a lot of books that I recognized in your book, some of the good ones from way back and still, classics. Do you read today? Do you read business books? Do you read novels? Do you read in book form? Do you read audibly? Listen? Do you watch? What do you
do? I typically read what I do, but, but I also I like Audible for on the go, it depends on the book.
Okay, okay. Do you listen to podcasts? Oh, yes, absolutely. What's your favorite one?
What relationship rules? Gotta
get it right though. It's relationships rule, yeah, there
you go. There you go. Though, yeah, yes. I love, I love podcast, and I love listening to, seriously, I do listen to the to the I get hooked on podcast host and what, just like any other podcast listener. And so I've listened to a number of years. I love them. And so, you know, I That's what gets me a lot of the podcast I listen to, I end up
talking to fans. Yeah, that's another piece, actually, that I loved in the end of your book about podcasting as a marketing tool, because it is. It's amazing what the where it takes you and the people that you meet. So I love that, and I think that's how we met, in a sense, because we both had a podcast and it was an opportunity for us to talk. So
thank you, John, thank you for being here. Last question, best piece of business advice you would share with my audience, which is the same as your audience, really, business owners, entrepreneurs, solopreneurs, service providers,
just understand that clients see more. Value in you and what you do for them. Then you see yourself, and if you understand that and make that a part of how you communicate, how you deliver your service, how you position your service, your business development, it will change everything. It'll change your pricing. It'll change how you market, how much you have to market. It will change everything in your business. So to me, that's a powerful idea.
It certainly is. Thank you so much. Thank you for being here today, and I know that it's about showing up with intention, clarity and service, and in a world where Trust is everything, your your insights offer a blueprint for building client relationships rooted in value and respect. If we want to learn more about your work, John, where can they find you? I will put it in the show notes, of course. Well,
thank you. And first of all, thanks again for for having me. It's just been such a delight my pleasure. Yeah, I really have enjoyed our conversation. And thank you again for your great work. So you can reach me on my website is one place to connect. John ray.co, J, O, H, N, R, A, y, dot, C O, connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm John Ray one on LinkedIn. I write a lot about these issues on LinkedIn and
post there. And then my podcast, as you mentioned, is called the price and value journey, and you can find that that podcast wherever you access your
podcast, so perfect, and your book The generosity mindset, the
generosity mindset.com to learn more about my book, perfect.
Thank you so much. John, again, it's been a pleasure talking to you and thank you to my audience, please remember to stay connected and be remembered. You.