Dan, hello, hello, and welcome to this week's episode of relationships rule. This week is going to be different, because I have a dynamic duo with me today, and
I'm quite excited about it today. We're going to be talking about a kind of relationship we often overlook the one we have with ourselves Joining me are Danielle Moore and Shelby iloria, co founders of Black Sheep Co, a company that empowers individuals to reclaim their voice, rediscover their path, and redefine success on their own terms through their work in brand strategy and personal identity, Danielle and Shelby guide people to step into their full selves, flaws, quirks
and all, and turn what makes them different into their greatest asset. In this episode, we'll explore how embracing your black sheep identity can actually be the most powerful move you make in life and business. Welcome, welcome,
thank you for having us My
pleasure so we're not visual for most people. So I'm going to say Danielle is the blonde of the duo, and Shelby is the brunette of the duo, and they both have distinct personalities, and hopefully those will come out as we chat today. So first of all, you describe Black Sheep at Black Sheep CO as a place for people to reclaim their voice. What does that mean to you personally? And I think I would
ask both of you that question. So whoever wants to go first, maybe say who you are first, so that people will know as we go through
Awesome. Well, Shelby here what it means to me. It's really there's parts of us that we over time, we tend to hide or we push down or we overlook because it doesn't match the plan that we've created, or what we're what we're building in our lives. And so those little parts of who we
are, we tend to just be like, Oh, it doesn't matter. Or how I often like to call it is, I learned that good girls stay small, and there was parts of my own personality that I kept down and small, even though I felt I had this big vision and these grand dreams. And I think that that's what to me, what black sheep is all about. It's reconnecting with who you are inside, and giving that a voice in what you do and how you approach your life.
Perfect. Danielle, over to you, I don't know how to follow that up. Shall we say?
Sure, you do, but, but as a writer, yeah, I think giving voice to those parts of us that we don't often give voice to, is so important. And one of the interesting things about our relationship with ourselves is that we are constantly evolving, and so being able to have an outlet and have a voice for ourselves as things change, I think, is really important as well as we develop and grow and being able to communicate that to others so that they can support us on our journey.
Beautiful. See you did just just so I do have to ask where the concept of Black Sheep originated and why it was the right symbol for your brand. So who wants to start there with that one? I'll let
Danielle go for this. Okay, so we Shelby and I will, first of all, we call ourselves non romantic life partners. Say that one more time, non romantic life partners, okay, yes,
Eff, really, right? And yes,
we do a lot of things together. So we do personal development together travel. We do business together. It's just kind of all encompassing. And so that's where the life partners piece comes in, and and a lot of what we do is traveling together. So a couple of years ago, we traveled to Shelby's family cottage in Quebec, and it was, it's a really special place for Shelby, and it was really cool for me to be able to go and experience and you know, see why
it's important to her. And so we went, just the two of us, in September, it was kind of rainy and cold for part of it, and so the one day we were huddled in the family cabin under blankets and just cold, and we were trying to kind of distract ourselves from from the cold. And we decided there was someone had left a little stack of cards, little deck of cards, that's like a conversation starter, and it was all about your family. So it was like, Really, just talking about, you
know, your family, how you grew up. And it was really interesting. We had some really cool conversations. What we realized through that conversation was that both of us, at times, felt like the black sheep in our family. And this conversation kind of spiraled into, wow, I. That a lot of people feel this way in their lives, not necessarily even in their families, but you can feel like the black sheep at
work in social situations in your family. There's so many areas where this can happen, and then it's so interesting, because it's actually, you know, we think of it as I'm the only one and I'm the odd one out. But everyone you know, we were talking about our siblings, and we thought, you know, a lot of our siblings probably feel that way in some aspects as well. So
it's more broad and applies to more people than you think. And so we wanted to create something where we can speak to those people who are feeling that way and help them embrace that piece of themselves, rather than trying to kind of tuck it away and and hide it.
So it made me think when you were talking about how one person may think they are different from the rest of their family or their friends or whatever in their class or wherever they're they're experiencing this, but it's not necessarily so it's their perception of themselves versus the perception that other people have. So it, I would think, can be kind of a opening Pandora's box in a way, because right you don't The reason someone feels that way could be pretty deep,
but you don't know that until you start working with them. So how do you guys sort of handle that when you're working with people? Because, you know, you're not psychologists. And I'm not saying it to be right. So speak to me on that.
Well, one of the things our main program that we have is called authentic, you right? Six week program that we take individuals through. And one thing we say up front is that we are not psychologists. And if, if you feel through this process, some some traumatic feelings or things that you do need more help with, we are happy to connect them with a psychologist. So we make it very clear that that's not our purpose,
right? It's more personal growth. And in, yes,
okay, exactly, exactly, and then the other part of it, because I agree, it is like Pandora's box, because there's so many parts of who we are and facets of who we are. And one of the things that we go through in this six weeks is we identify, Okay, yeah, there might be all these parts that are results you don't like in your life and things you want to tackle. However, we say, choose one. Choose one to start with, because then it's not so overwhelming, and sometimes that
that then can help alleviate some of the others. When you choose one, and we say, this is, this is a journey. It's a growth journey, and you may want to take it again and again to tackle some of those so we feel it ourselves, and we have felt it ourselves, and therefore we definitely address that right up front.
Okay, that's so how has embracing your own black sheepness or your own differences shaped your relationships in business and beyond?
I think that one of the greatest things you can do is just embrace who you are. I think a lot of people just spend so long kind of fighting, fighting against it, right, and trying to fit in and doing what we're told. Shelby mentioned the good girl mentality, you know? I think it's especially true for
women. I mean, we handle, we serve women and men, and they have great results, but women in particular, you know, we kind of get ingrained into these roles and what we're supposed to do, and Shelby and I have gone in our personal lives in a bit of a different direction than we even thought, you know, than what we
had planned. And so it's really about figuring out who you are and and what's important to you outside of some of these external things that we're we're always faced with, and just trying to navigate our own path and block out some of those, those external factors, which they're always going to come back into play, and you're going to have to deal with them. But, you know, separating that outside world and saying, Okay, here's me and here's what I really want.
Yeah, and everyone has their own baggage, whether it's nurture or or or nature kind of thing, whether it's been shaped by their environment, they've they've found themselves in, or put themselves in, or whether it's the deep, ingrained things that came from their upbringing, they're all different, right? So I'm sure that it's fascinating, because everybody, everybody brings their own story. Story to the table. Do you have a story yet? Because I know your
business isn't that old, and that's that's great. But do you have any story of transformation that you've witnessed where someone owning their identity has changed their their trajectory, business wise or life wise?
Well, one of them for me is it's going back to that good girls stay small. And I've really fought that for a long time, because I had the belief that if and where it came from, I can't really say exactly where it came from. Oddly enough, this is an aside. Is where my sister and I actually grew up, same family, same parents, all of that, and she never struggled with the good girl feeling, whereas I did,
what's the age difference? Just out of curiosity, four and a half years she's younger than that's a lot.
That's a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so what I found is I kept I had this big dream that chose me when I was 16 years old, and it was that I would be on stage in front of in a huge stadium, in front of 1000s of people as a speaker. And I, I fought it because I was like, I, who am I to be on stage? What do I have to talk about? What do I have to say that hasn't already been said, and it would not leave me. The stinking dream would not leave
me. And I've I've noticed that through the plan I had, the plan I had for my life was go to college, get a career, get married, have kids, buy the house, go on the vacations. And it hasn't turned out that way, and I've had to really embrace what that looks like in my life and find out that it actually has given me a story. It has given me something that I can share with others. And I've I've really had to work on making my voice heard and being comfortable with sharing that
story. It's a battle. Danielle knows it's been a battle. I've had a lot of I just recently spoke on a stage in Mexico, and I've really challenged myself to share a very vulnerable story of my marriage and my journey of not becoming a mom and what that did, and my separation, and it was really vulnerable, and it was really hard. I fought against that however, I knew, I knew that good girl inside of me needed to be released, and I
needed to take up that space and own it. And I felt really proud of myself for doing it, and for starting to just own my story and who I am. So that's that's been, for me, one of the biggest transformations, that it's still a journey, and it's still going to be a journey. However, up until that this point,
was there any time or any thought once you made that decision to share that story that made you feel, or that that not made you feel, but that that you thought by being able to now share that you were going to help other people, like, was that part of it? Did that become part of it? Or was it always like, was that part of was that a light bulb moment?
It was, it was a light bulb moment. It was interesting, because after I shared the story, I had individuals come up to me and be like, Oh, I related because of this, and I knew, like I've been transformed by people's stories. So I know that when we share our stories, there's transformation that happens, even if it's not the exact same. And what I realized in that it was almost like it was confirmation that, yes, Shelby, you're doing the right thing. Your story matters.
YOUR Story can impact other people. And so I don't know if I would say it was a full light bulb, but it was almost like this confirmation inside of me that this is, this is the right
path, right? And one of the reasons that we choose to run group sessions in Black Sheep CO is because we want to foster this sense of belonging, right, individuality, but also belonging, right? You belong here, even though, even when you feel different from other people,
and feeling different doesn't know isn't necessarily a negative thing, it's just being that individual that you are and being accepted for who you are, for sure,
yes, and just embracing it Yeah. And we had, you know, in our in our launch group, we had just people sharing really amazing stories and and just getting very vulnerable. And through that, I think people were able to pick up on different things. And. And and bring it back and apply it
to their own lives, right? So it's kind of this interesting thing where, you know, we are all connected as people, and yet we are so individual, and so fostering both sides of that is really important, I think, in Black Sheep CO and really what we want to do through the group program. So we had some people have some, like, incredible breakthroughs in that first session or group run, I guess it's a six program, yeah,
yeah. I was just gonna say, was there an age average or they because you two are younger in my in my life, you you would be considered younger. And do you attract the people that are around your age, or did they come from different age groups and walks of life?
Yeah, they came from very different age groups. But I want to say, you know, generally it's people around like 40 to 60 who are starting to think about this, I think a lot of what we a lot of people we work with end up coming to us because they're in some kind of transition phase. So they're transitioning
out of a role, looking for something into
something new, exactly, and so like retirement or empty nesters, or new careers, new businesses, those kind of things really spark that change, because you start to see yourself differently, and you need to evolve, and you need to have clarity around that. And that's really what authentic you provides, is clarity around the direction you're going, where you've been and where you are right now.
Love it. That's great. Why do you think, and I'm gonna say in business, in this instance, why do you think people resist being fully themselves? What gets in the way?
I think it's this feeling of I should be a certain way. So Danielle and I, we, there are certain things that we do differently. We're we're different. And one, one example that I always make it relates to people, is
she knows what you're going to say, right? Yeah.
She does is this idea that you have to wake up early at 5am to be a good business owner? Oh yeah, I wake up at 5am typically, I just naturally do. That's the way my body is. Danielle doesn't.
Neither do I. Danielle,
we're on the same page. Oh yeah. And
Danielle's tried, Danielle has definitely tried to do it, and there's just something to celebrate that we are different in that. And that's a really cool thing that we can work together on. Obviously, there's other things, but that's just a very simple example that in business, you don't have to be something that doesn't align with who you are.
You know that that rings such a bell with me. For four years I was part of a BNI group, and this was 12 years ago. This is a long time ago, and I was part of a BNI group that met at seven o'clock every morning, every week, one
Wednesday morning. But in order to be at that meeting at seven o'clock, and in order to get the value that I needed to get, I wanted to be the the welcome host, okay, so that I got to meet the guests, and I got to network with those people, really, every time I had to be there at 630 which meant I had to find a parking spot too at 615 which meant it took me half an hour to get there, and I had to get dressed and look
presentable before that. So every week, on Tuesday night, I would have an anxiety attack because I had to get up so early the next morning, then the meeting would be, I'd be on my you know, full stop. I'd be the best greeter and all of that good stuff. But by the next morning, I had a migraine. Thursday morning I was useless. I had a migraine every week, and it took me four years to to then say, You know what, why am I
doing this? This does not sit right with who I am. And ever since I left that group, when somebody says, Can you meet at 730 or can you do a breakfast? No, I cannot. I don't do it anymore. So I fought that for a very long time, and I'm like, why? That's not who I am, and I think that's what you're saying in in a way. So I truly lived that myself, and I can't, I can't do that anymore. No, thanks.
I was laughing as you were talking, because I had exactly the same experience. Janice, I exactly the same, except when I started, I would actually book nap time
after I can't nap. That's the problem.
Okay, okay, well, that was my that was my relief for it. You know, it's about knowing your. Yourself enough, just those boundaries, right? And just say, I'm not meeting at 7am I'm not at my best. You're not going to get my best. So why would I subject you to that? How about this instead, and just allowing people to allow that in themselves, right? Permission. Shelby talks a lot about giving yourself permission, and I think, and I
think that's what we did, exactly. And since, since COVID, the world opened up. And I have a lot of clients in different areas of the world, like Australia and England. And like, somebody messaged me today and said, Oh, I've scheduled this for CWT or whatever, that central European cet time. I don't know what time that is. I have to go figure that out now. But if it doesn't align, I'm not doing it. Yeah, it just, it's just the way it is. I'm too old to worry about it anymore. So
there you go. I get to do what I want to do. And I think that's so does that also come into play that you see people gain confidence. Does that happen as well to owning who they are, and then they gain confidence because they're allowing it?
Yeah, yeah, exactly gay. The people that we've seen go through our program is, you see that confidence of, Oh, it's okay for me to be this way. Oh, I'm I am allowed to feel this way. And it can feel very scary, because it's like, well, if I let this part of myself out, is that going to ruin everything I've created? Yeah, and the, the beautiful thing is, it's about learning what that is, and then figuring out, how do you create that in the life that you have?
And it doesn't have to be that you have to blow up your entire life to be yourself. It's start with understanding yourself, and then how do you make that work within the life that you've created? For some people, it will be blowing up your life. Most people It won't be
right, right. Okay, so I've got a couple of questions here around kind of fits into what the other part of your world, because you both have companies of your own, as well as the company you have together, which right away tells me that you're true entrepreneurs, because that's what happens. So how do identity, self image and personal style influence? No, I'll read this again. How do identity, self image and personal style influence the way we build professional relationships?
That is a great question. So I am also an image consultant. I have a image consulting personal styling business, and that is a really big I've seen that personal identity part of it. I'm really big on aligning who you are with what you wear. And when you create that alignment, that's where the impact can really happen in your life. And I've seen this over and over in the style clients I've worked with, is what they really want, is they want to feel like
themselves and who they are in what they wear. And I see that as soon as someone starts wearing something that feels like them, they show up differently. So you see this in business meetings, is when someone starts wearing something that feels like them, even though they may have thought they could never wear it like, oh, that that's not for me.
That's for someone else, but now they have this confidence that someone told me that I can wear this, and this is who I am, and I feel like a 10 out of 10 in this they're going to show up to that networking meeting and be like so on fire, because they feel like themselves in what they're wearing. And I love it. And it's not that you have to wear a suit or anything like
that. It's just simply who you are. And I mean, I could talk for hours about all the different types of styles, but that's really it's that individuality and that who you are. And I met someone recently. He loves to wear really wild suits. That's who he is. And I saw how he lit up when he talked about it. And I'm like, that's amazing. Do it? Keep doing it? Because that's what
lights you up well. And do you want to add to anything? Derek, Danielle,
I mean, as as, yeah, as a client of Shelby. I mean, it makes all the difference, right? You work walk into a networking room completely differently if you're comfortable in what you're wearing and and it can make, it can make a big difference in in building relationships, right? And talking about relationships like it gives you that that confidence boost to go out there as an introvert. For me do a networking event, and, you know, actually talk to people and really connect with them. So,
right? And I have one more thing on that is I had a client where he's an accountant. He was told, you have to wear a suit. And so when we talk about I asked him, and he didn't want to, and I asked him, I'm like, Well, who are your ideal clients, right? And he said, owners of construction company. And I said, Well, if you show up in a three piece suit to meet with them, what's going to happen? And he's like, they're going to laugh at me and kick me out. So you can't build
that relationship. So you in business, you really want to think about who is your client, who are you trying to connect with, and your people, who are your people? Yeah, so that makes a big difference as
well. Yeah, it's funny. When I was getting dressed this morning, I was thinking about you because I'd watched a little clip of something you had done with somebody who used to be a broadcaster. Yeah, yeah. And you're talking about, you know, what you should wear on camera and stuff. And I gotta tell you, this is hysterical, because I never wear prints. I always wear plain. And there was just something today I felt like I wanted to, I liked this neck,
and I wanted to wear this top. And then I thought, Oh, God, is is Shelby going to think that, you know, because I get that image consultant piece in my head, because I worked with one for many years, myself and and sometimes it just, but anyway, it's not really busy here, so I think I'm okay. But
yeah, no, you're okay. You don't have that tiny like, the thing is, with really tiny patterns, it makes. Oh, thanks. No, you're you're good.
Oh, great. Okay. Next question, Danielle, from a brand strategy and writing standpoint, what's the business case for leaning into your uniqueness.
Well, I think the biggest thing that I'm finding right now is that we're so inundated with messages all the time, and a lot of it is just information, and what what
people are can actually connect with is stories. And a lot of business owners entrepreneurs are a little hesitant to share their own stories, and so one of the things that I'm doing in a program that I've created called Lean marketing Lab, which is basically teaching entrepreneurs, you know, giving them a plug and play system to to tell their story and use use
tools like AI to do it. Well, okay, in that program, you know, the focus is really on the storytelling and getting them kind of out of their comfort zone with telling those stories. Because I think a lot of people, and I know Shelby struggles with this as a speaker, too, you kind of feel like your story is insignificant, right? Right? People out there with these big stories, and it's dramatic, and it's like, it's not about the content of the story, sometimes, as much as how you tell the
story. And so that's what I'm trying to incorporate, get people to incorporate into their marketing, their branding is, you know, what personal stories do you bring to this? What you know, why does it matter to you? Because if you can say why it matters to you, then it will matter to someone else. So
I've never heard it said that way. That's really good, because I'm one of those people who think I listen to these, you know, big, grandiose stories that people tell, and I think, God, that's so I don't have a story like that. So, you know, why would anybody care? But is, are you saying that it's more about the, the presentation of it, or, just like the it's not embellishing it so much as as putting the heart into
it exactly, exactly, and, yeah. And, I mean, it's not presentation, is I mean, obviously, I'm a writer. I like the technical aspects of, you know, telling a story well and doing it correctly. And there's stories, sure, there's all these different things that go into it, but really, yeah, it's about putting the heart into it, right? And and having these connection points and this relatability, where people are like, Oh yeah, you know, Shelby talked about her her speech, and
people related to it in very different ways. And just giving people an opportunity through that storytelling to connect in some way is the important piece, I think, right? So you're not just telling a story at someone and like you said, you're not embellishing. It doesn't have to be dramatic. It doesn't matter. You know, like, we get fascinated on social media by people who are just going about their every day, right? But
they're telling a story about it. They're, I know they're making it relatable, and that's what we love,
yeah, okay, fair enough. All right, I think you can each answer this one if, and I think this will be the last one around, last question around the black sheep Cohen. Then I got a couple of quick questions for you before we wrap up. If being the black sheep is a superpower. What's the first step in learning how to use it?
I think the first step is acknowledging it okay, and acknowledging that it is part of who you are, and looking for ways to use it in your life.
Perfect. I would agree, acknowledging it for me, a lot of things come. Down to awareness and just being more aware of yourself and how you relate to the world and how you relate to others. And once you have the awareness piece, then you can start to think about what you're going to do with it. Right? Like, a lot of times it's like, we want to just jump right
into change and be like, Okay, I'm going to be this person. I'm going to do this and, you know, this big, dramatic change, I totally Shelby is laughing at me, because I totally have a tendency to do that. So what I have to do, and what I think other people have to do, is really slow down, take it back a
step, and just ask some questions. And that's what Shelby and I are really good at, is asking people questions that get them thinking differently about who they are and how they relate to the world and then what they want that to look like.
Now, now I have to ask another question. See, I just got another question, and that that is when you work in your what's it called? Your course? Sorry. Authentic. You authentic you? Do you each take different components of it, or do you feed off each other during the the the program
I have primarily been leading it, and then we have Danielle pop in to to kind of add stories, or add, you know, different components of it. So that's what we've done so far.
Yeah? Because you're the speaker, you're the one that wants to be on stage, and you're looking at it and writing the stuff and putting it in, I can tell now, yeah, putting it into, yeah, we have
a good, we have a good, yeah, yeah, I do. I do some teaching as well, and we're gonna, we're just about to launch a memoir course, so I'll be, I'll be teaching that one, but this one was kind of Shelby's brain child, and it came out of, you know, our eight years of kind of exploring personal development and personal growth and just putting it all together into A process that guides people without, without making them feel like they have to do it this way, or,
you know, we're rebels. We don't like being told what to do. And like, like Shelby said, we do things differently, and so we've had to adapt things. You know, we can read the same book and go about getting the results we want from it very differently,
differently. All right, couple of quick fire questions, how do you get your how do you best like to get your own information, like by reading or by video or by audio, whatever? Shelby,
I listen to a lot of audio books and non fiction audio books, and that's where I get a lot of my info. Okay, Danielle,
I think that's Shelby. I don't know. That's a shallow answer for you. Shelby is always looking for information like she everywhere she finds conversations, networking,
curious one audio, oh, yeah, she's
absolutely a curious mind. So, I mean, yeah, you listen to a lot of audio books, but I think that yeah
is a little too shallow.
I also prefer audio which is kind of funny, but I read a lot in a day in terms of reading words. So for me, I prefer audio podcasts. Audio books are a big one for me, and then, yeah, networking, I love one on one conversations with people and asking those questions. Okay,
perfect. And curiosity, innate or learned? Danielle, you go first.
Oh, for me, totally, totally innate. Yeah, since I was a kid, like books. Books for me is where I satisfy what
are you reading right now?
Oh, what am I reading right now? I you know what? I've done, this thing where I started reading, like six books at once, so all kinds of stuff, business wise, right now, Shelby and I are actually rereading 10x is easier than 2x Oh, okay, a
classic for us. Yeah, I haven't read that one. What's his name?
John Sullivan and Benjamin Hardy. Hardy? Oh, that's
not the one I was thinking of. Okay, I was thinking of the guy from the 10x but, but I've heard that that book that you're reading is really good, and Dan Sullivan is amazing. So yeah, okay, cool, Shelby, curiosity, innate or learned? I
feel like, for myself, it's a little bit of both. I think it was innate, however, the what I learned was that to good girls, stay small, and my I really quelched My curiosity for a long time. I didn't see myself as a curious person, I would say, until the last decade, when I started to realize, Oh, I am curious. I do want to know these things. So I think it's a little bit of both for Okay, and what
are you reading or learning about right now? What are you curious about right now?
I am reading a book called The Seven frequencies of communication. I just started. A friend had recommended it to me, and she's been telling me she's like, Shelby, you'll love this, you'll love this. And so far, I'm only on chapter two. I am fascinated by it because it talks about those stories we tell ourselves and how we communicate with ourselves.
Fantastic. Fantastic. You guys have been great. I really enjoyed talking to you both, and I hope my audience will explore some of the work that you're doing, because I think any anybody in business and anybody that's cares about growing themselves can benefit from the work that you're doing. I think that you guys remind us that the relationship we have with ourselves forms the foundation for every other connection that we build in life and business.
When we have the courage to own our story, embrace our quirks and show up fully, it changes the game. Whether you're rebranding, rebuilding or simply rethinking how you show up in the world, maybe it's time to let your black sheep shine. So thanks for listening to relationships rule. Thanks for being here Shelby and Danielle. And if today's conversation resonated with you, please share it with someone who needs a reminder that who they are is more than enough.
Thank you guys, amazing. Thanks for having us. Well. Said. My pleasure. You.