Hi everyone and welcome to this week's episode of relationships rule. My guest this week is coming to us from Northern California and I'm so excited to talk to her. You know, it's it's unbelievable actually how many things have happened in common with us since we met. Her name is Nori, Java. Please welcome me. welcome her to the show with me. Welcome nori. Nice to have you on the show.
Thank you so much. I'm delighted to be here.
Well, it started, it all really started with me getting a message from Norreys publicist because she's just become a best selling author. She's written a book. And we're going to dig in and talk about that today. But what's so strange is I said, Well, I don't know if I will have nori on my podcast, I have to talk to her first because I like to meet people before. It feels like it's the right thing to do. And, of course, Norreys publicist said, of course, she'd be happy
to meet with you. Well, we never stopped talking, did we, from the minute we we started and there were so many things that came up for us that were I didn't know similar or the fact that you know, Vancouver was like, so exciting to me that you've called it your second home.
This my second home and my favorite place on earth.
Well, so right away, how could I not have you on my podcast, right, it was just it was a given, but we just hit it off right away. And so I'm very excited to share nori with my audience here. So nori wrote this book called Keeping your seat at the table, which is really part memoir, and part guidebook, and I love the style that that you write in nori and that you you actually you're sharing a lot of you in this
book. And so I can see where it's like, it's your journey to where you are, but it's also a lot of food for thought around women, middle, middle age, women really 40 plus women not, I won't say middle aged, I'll say 40 Plus, and the things that have that we experienced that we weren't expecting. So I'd like to ask you first, you know, how did you come to, to write this book, because it's really quite interesting, the way it's written and what it's about.
Thank you. So I wrote it, kind of us therapy, printing and as an outlet for my frustration in dealing with job hunting as a middle aged woman, and the books really designed for women over 40, even though I'm over 50. But I learned that women in their 40s face this just as much as women in their 50s. And I really started facing it in my 40s. And it just gets worse and worse and worse as we age. And I just, I just couldn't
put up with it anymore. And I had to stop job hunting, I actually just gave it up and decided to write a book about my journey. And then I decided well, enough for this, I'm going to start my own company if nobody's going to hire me. So I started this had this concept to start this company and joined an incubator program and a coaching program to help me get motivated to do that, while writing the book. And I thought, Oh, this
will be great. I'll write this book, keeping your seat at the table about a woman who wasn't hired and started her own company and did amazing things. And during the process, I decided not to start the company table bad idea, if you will, decided to just focus on writing the book. And lo and behold, in writing the book, I did get a job. And I'm very happy with that. Now I'm actually on my second job since I started writing a book I was stolen by another company.
I away I think is your dream job, right?
I love it. I'm so happy. And you know, there's so much more to unpack with that too. But yeah, I just got fed up. And I it started depleting my self esteem. I wasn't feeling good about myself, which everybody knows, you know, if you're not feeling good about yourself, you're not going to come across well in an interview. And I just needed to take a step back. But I also wanted to research what was
happening. So I decided to make this a project and do some interviewing and some research on why it's so hard for middle aged women to get jobs. So I interviewed an HR director at one of the companies that declined to hire me. And she said yes, and we had coffee and I asked her why is it so hard for white middle aged women and she just completely opened up
with me in the most honest, transparent way. And it was really brave of her to do that because that were kind of uncomfortable, and I'm grateful to her for that, and it really started me on this journey of learning more and more and more. So
can you share just like maybe in an overview of of what the gist of it was? Yes. So putting anything or doing something, a
couple of things that I learned from her, she said, you know, middle aged women don't listen. And that was really a hard pill to swallow, because I didn't want to listen to what she was telling me. I was really taken aback and a little offended. And thank goodness, she was a middle aged woman herself, or it probably would have gotten the table. But I decided to sit up straight, lean in, and listen to what she
had to say, because Am I guilty of this? You know, I actually felt like I was doing exactly what she said, that middle aged women do, because I didn't want to hear what she had to say. But I listened and said, you know, please tell me more. And it goes both ways. You know, young people sometimes don't listen to older people. But what she really explained to me was that sometimes we women have to fight so hard to get our place at the
table. And especially when we are older and experienced and have that wisdom, and we have so much to share that we do more sharing than absorbing. And so it really, I stepped back. And but yeah, I am totally guilty of that. And especially I started thinking about an incident. And I shared in the book, where I was sitting at a table with a very important meeting with a bunch of man, I was either one one other woman or maybe two at
most. And I instead of listening because I kept being dismissed, every time I opened my mouth or talked over, that I was looking for opportunities to jump in, and not listening to what was being said, but jumping in and using it to my advantage to just be heard. So, and yet, it was a really important meeting. And there were some valuable things that people were sharing. But I think so often as women, we are put in that position unfairly.
And we have to wait to be heard, and not be dismissed. And so we have to, we have to stop listening as a way to get ourselves heard. And so I really thought about that. But I need to become a better listener. And you know, I'm guilty of interrupting and pushing my way in because we have to be kind of forceful. So after that moment, I decided I'm going to really focus on being a better listener. And I am still actively working on that. And it's a lifelong journey. Right?
I appreciated what she said, Because I am a better listener because of it. Interesting.
That's so interesting. Because yes, we have to we have to fight to be heard, then. It it's such a there's so much emotion, especially women female. Yeah, that's right. It's all consuming when that it does affect that and does it also it made me think when you were talking does it also, do you think she meant at all about the fact that if a middle aged woman gets hired into a situation where the younger men or women are managing them that that is the that's where the issue comes?
Absolutely. No, everybody can take from that message, what works for them, because there's so many nuances to it. But for me, I have been told, you know, stop interrupting it's listen a little bit more, you talk too much or whatever. So for me, that's how I used it to better myself interested in others, there might be something else. So the other thing that's also related to that is that older women, she told me, and I really think older men are in this
category too. Don't listen to young people. And there's a dismissiveness of those who are starting out in their careers. And I think young people are guilty of that too. You know, the hate rumor and all of that dismissing middle aged people and my kids have done that too. With me like give me your phone, I'll teach you right and I've learned so much from them. But I also from that really took it upon myself to actively embrace being mentored by younger people, not just mentoring
younger people but trying to learn from them. And I'll tell you that was so important to go through that journey because now in my job that I have now but I love my boss is I'm much younger than I am decades. And I don't think I could have dealt with that effectively before I'd gone through this journey. So, you know, could you have a really young boss? I, it's, it's an interesting question. And when you get to a certain age, everybody is younger than you in the work.
And I'm unemployable anyway. So like I had a long time ago, I learned, you know, I used to be a teacher, and I loved teaching in my first life, but it didn't like the bureaucracy around it. And I was very young at the time. And, and then I realized when I left teaching, I still wanted to teach, right, so I then I did corporate training. And that's just another version of teaching kids because the same characters appear right when
I love corporate training, I love teaching.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So but I did it as a contractor, because I didn't want to be locked into something. But then I had a lot to learn about business. So you know, I've come different ways I've learned from younger people, too. And I, I'm actually inspired by the bright, young people that they've come from a completely different beginning. And what they're doing with the world, in some, in some cases is amazing. So, you know, there's a lot to learn from them, too. But
so there's a there's a central theme in your book. And this is a question that that has come up that I know, it sort of comes up in your book, as a secondary theme as the importance of relationships with others at the table? And why is it so important to have them? And how does one go about building such a network? Because I know you have like, specific people at your table that are your people, right? Is it like having your own board of directors or just
Yeah, okay, that's pretty much what it is. So the book is all about, you know, flipping the table, building your own, you already have a seat at the table, you're at the head, and developing these strategic partnerships with others who sit at your table that you choose who's there, so you're not invited to the table, you're inviting others to your table. And so it's really shifting your view of success.
But one of the things I learned in my journey is, I'm an extrovert, I have a lot of great connections, I worked in public affairs and community relations. And so I know a lot of people and have some really solid relationships. And I thought, oh, all of these connections will help me in my job hunt. Well, guess what? It didn't, it didn't didn't matter, that I had a congress person on my reference list and know his cell phone number and could call him at any time, it just didn't
matter. So what was really kind of a shock to me was that my networking wasn't effective for me, and I know what this is your job is to help him help people with their networking on LinkedIn. And so you know, had all these great connections, but I had to rethink them, and develop new connections that were strategically designed to help me at this new table for myself, this board of directors, if you will, that I was creating.
Okay, so back to the when you were looking for the job, and you had all these connections. You know, my daughter just went through this process of looking for a new job. And she's had to do it a couple of times, and she's not an extrovert, and she doesn't have a big network of people. I'm the one with the network. I'm the one with all the connections, but she wouldn't even listen to me, you know, so
that didn't even count. But in the end, what happened, she had maybe 200 to two parts of this, she had like 200 applications that she had put in for a job. And, you know, had a few interviews. And in the end, she got a job Finally, after three months or something. And it turned out that the guy that she went through a first interview with this company, and then the second interview was with this, her manager, her boss, who it turned out she had worked for the same company as him several
years ago. They never worked together, but they knew some of the same people. So, okay, she got that job over 200 applicants. I don't believe she was the best person for the job. But I believe the fact that he had connection with her made a difference. And I always say to people, it's not what you know, it's who you know. So what you're saying is kind of interesting to me, because in your case, it didn't really help you.
So it could have and, you know, ultimately when I look back at the job that I did get during the process because I knew that the executive director, okay, so that's,
that's yes. But I
reached out to her to tell her, Hey, I am job hunting, please hire me, it was because we had this organic relationship that we've had for 15 years. And she realized a need for her company. And she reached out to me. And then the job that I have now I got because of my relationships with the people that I was working with in my job. So the connections do help. But I guess the ones that I bought, that I could rely on to really open doors for me, that wasn't okay.
So I think your story about your daughter is so important too, because you sometimes aren't aware of how these connections are going to help you. Right? Right. So so making sure that you really just think about all of these connections, and understand that it's great to get the word out that you're job hunting, you know. But, but rethinking how you use your
contacts. And that, yeah, we can do for them, too, you know, one of your interviews that I listened to, with Sam, I forget his last name, um, Jacobs, Jacobs is is stop thinking of it as a transaction, these relationships, you know, what can you do for me? What can I do for you, and if you start looking at it as, what can I do for you, this genuine suddenlink people will, other people will do things for you.
So, and that's an and just to build on that I, I believe that. And it's also though, it's the law of reciprocity. And it's not necessarily, you know, I do something for you, and you do something for me, I do something for you, out of the kindness of my heart, and somebody else out there does something for me, because that's how it works. It doesn't necessarily come back from where it was in the first
place. And, and I think that gets misconstrued sometimes. But also, was I gonna say, oh, that, I think it's important with the connections that we have, and the relationships that we build, we have to protect our relationships. And be careful how we use them, right not to take advantage of them. And right, so for example, if I'm introducing you, the new, my new friend, to someone I've known for a long time, I would want to make sure that this person in my connection base or community
would be okay with me, bringing someone to them. So I always want to make sure that that happens, I happen to know in these two cases, it'll be fine that we you and I talked about before. But that's kind of to me, it's about protecting your relationships with people so that they end loving on them every once in a while right to keep them to keep them in your circle. So yeah, it's all to me, it's always about people. So that's, that's where I'm coming from there. So there's, I am
curious about this. This was one of the questions you had on your sheet, but it's not why I'm asking it. It's because when I was reading your book, and each chapter begins with 100, word summary. Now, I was tempted
to count the words, I have to tell you about them. They are exactly I
didn't because I thought no, that's wasted my time. But okay, so there you go. It is 100 words. Why did you do that? I just love that whole thing.
It's so much fun. So this really came to me through a friend of mine from college. His name is Grant Faulkner. And he is executive director of NaNoWriMo, which stands for National Novel Writing Month, which is an it's actually an international organization where you challenge yourself to write a novel in one month, in it's held in the month of November, and then they have other challenges throughout the year.
But it's this challenge. And he also is the editor of the 100 word story, which is a book that comes out every year, and everybody submits their 100 word story. And I talked to him about this. And I just started doing this as an exercise for fun. It's almost like writing a poem or trying to write a short story or if you're if you're a journal or you can try to capture your
thoughts. And I also would help my kids edit their papers after they've written them because they had a twin A 500 word maths or whatever it was trying to get it down under the limit. So I was an English major and just enjoy the word cutting, I guess I'm quite nervous. So I started doing these 100 word summaries as a way to really capture each the essence of what I was trying to show and share with every single chapter. And it's, it's a
fun game, it's a fun challenge. And it makes you realize how important every single word really is. And so I use this method a lot in my writing to try to wait, you know, if I'm writing a policy, what am I trying to say? Captured in 100 words? And then you do, you can do with less than 100 words, but I prefer to do exactly what, okay, there you go, just for the fun of it, because it is such a challenge to capture the essence
in exactly 100 words. So there's a summary of each, at the beginning of each chapter, count them, they are exactly 100 words.
I love it. And then I am also curious as to how you came up with the, you know, the metaphor of the table, because as, as it's shown throughout the story, there's so many different places and ways to use it. But I'm curious how you came up with that.
So I was actually at a women's leadership conference, it was a one day conference, and one of the speakers was talking about keeping your seat at the table or getting your seat at the table and how women need to have that seat at the table. And I just started brainstorming about how fun that word is, and how we use it. And there's just so much you can do with that. And my chapters in the book are all about, you know, the metaphor of the table, and how we use it, you know, don't get
pulled under the table, on the table. And, and I think it's time to think of it in a broader way. And when I was doing my job hunt, that was the message that came through to me loud and clear with my journey is that the table was so much more than just having a seat at the corporate table of success and what's image we have the table. And you know, it's it's essential to humanity. The table is where we love where we learn, where we ask hard questions, and have tough conversations where
we socialize and nourish ourselves and our souls. And so why am I just so stuck on having a seat at this corporate table? So I really use the journey to re to shift my view of success and view of the table to be much more about life fulfillment, rather than just a corporate seat at the table and feeling like I'd made it.
Yeah, that's awesome. You and you share a lot of things in this book about, you know, being a mom and, and dealing with clutter and seeing that have come from, from your family and things like that. One of the chapters is called Don't table yourself, chapter five, and it's about staying relevant. And and we talked just briefly earlier about, you know, older women, perhaps not listening well, and things like that, but we need to stay relevant. How are you staying relevant?
Well, so in writing this book, I realized I have so much I need to learn. And we have to stay on top of things, you have to know the current technology. And as we get older, it's more and more overwhelmed. There's more. And you know, we weren't born with AI, with watches on our risks that lead us to the world. We were born in a different time. And I watched my mom, and seniors who are literally left behind and isolated because they can't use a smartphone to call an Uber. Or
it's just, it's just too hard for them to do it. And sometimes I've been in meetings and I've heard an older person say, Oh, I'm way too old for that. And I realized, yes, you are. So I am not going to be that person. I need to stay on top of it all and learn everything and not be intimidated or overwhelmed by
it. And so you know, I rely on younger people to help me learn that and make sure that I know all the current technology that that is relevant for my job, you know, just being able to say I'm going to take that course or I'm going to learn about go on LinkedIn learning. LinkedIn learning is incredible what they have all these courses that you can take. And as part of the book, I did research on resources for learning new skills. And I went to nobleworks, which is the job
training center in our metropolitan area here. But every in the US and probably in Canada, too. All of the metropolitans have these job training centers, and they're free, and you can go and they will help you assess your skills, and figure out what you need to learn. And they will help you get those skills. So as an older woman in the workplace, middle aged, I don't like to be called older, but know this for sure. We need to make sure we stay on top and learn all these
new things. So always staying open to learning new things, and not being intimidated is really, really important. And that's why having younger people at your table is important too, because they show you the way or teach you a new thing. How often have I been at work, and somebody needed help with Excel? And I said, Oh, you just do it this way. And I'd sit down and show
them or they would do the same for me. I learned how to how to change these page breaks that I couldn't get rid of in Word by watching a YouTube video on it.
Yeah. My 12 year old, right.
You've just got to keep learning to stay.
Well, yeah, it's so true. But it's funny, you know, when you said old were, you know, I'm older than you. But I don't consider myself old. Anyone just getting started? Yeah, so but when I see, like, over the last couple of days on CNN, two very smart, very old people kind of lose it on in front of, you know, the the world. That's scary, because they didn't know when to stop and move away. I think
especially Dianne Feinstein, that was pretty scary. Yeah. And well, and Mitch McConnell, but, you know, you just, I mean, they're brilliant people, but they've gone past, you know, they're, well, we won't get into politics, because I know there's more to that story as well. Right?
When you know, as we age, and if you are going to be working into your 80s like those two, you better know what's going on in the world and know the new technology, and be able to use the communication systems that people use in this day and age. You know, I, I don't want to tweet, but I am learning now. It's called x. Learning how to do it and trying to embrace it because that's what authors use. Okay, my daughter told me, Mom, you got to do a video on tick tock, tick tock has this book
talk channel. All the authors are using so I am learning how to do that. Isn't
that interesting? Because that I didn't know. So. So how did your daughter know that? Like, is she into the same world as you? I know, she's into Tik Tok, obviously, but how did she
not at all I mean, every young person in there, I have three daughters in their 20s. And they know all of this. It's just you're born with it. But no, I, this particular daughter works in launching people in their music careers. So she knows how to do that. Sure, of course, is of course very important, or asking her for years. Yeah, definitely. Interesting. So we discovered
something about this. But I want to ask you about this, your career path has been what you described as squiggly lines instead of an upward arrow pointing to success, and you express how important it is to make peace with your journey. So we discovered that that term was something I recognized was someone who had been a guest on my podcast a few years ago, actually. But so what did that mean to you? And can you tell us a little bit more about that? First, I
can't wait to read her book. Angela, can Lyons book your soul sisters? For sure. Yeah, I mean, I, I got a master's degree two years out of undergrad and had this had this path for myself mapped out and it was an arrow going straight up. You know, I moved up quickly and had this wonderful job. And I really thought I was going to be in the C suite. That's what I had envisioned for myself. And it didn't have that. And it's okay. It's okay. But it took me until now, to make peace with
the fact that it didn't happen. And I made the conscious choice not to make it happen when I tabled the job, the company that I was going to start, and you know, I've had my consulting business and been called myself president for 10 years or more. And so I've had that but it's not the same as Starting a company of large company, but having a squiggly lines career has given me a richness and opportunities and opened new doors for me that I never would have had, if I just kept on that
arrow and continued on my corporate career path. And I didn't, because I wanted to be home with my kids. And it was, frankly, just too hard. I had an hour and 20 minutes each way commute. And with two babies, yeah, that is really, really hard. And you know, kids get ear infections. And you have to, we would have 3am conversations with quotes, more like fights over whose job was more important and who we could not, who could miss work the next day to stay home with kid and that
was before remote work was really a possibility. And so thank goodness, the worlds has adjusted. And we can be parents and deal with aging parents. And you know, now I have to take my mom to the doctor a lot and take time off to do that. But the world has changed. But the squiggly lines, it was really hard for me to accept that I didn't do what I set out to do
when I was in my 20s. And is it too late? And so the book is really about shifting my view of success and really making peace with those wonderfully squiggly lines with squiggly line, a curvy line is so much more interesting than a straight line. Yes, of course, of course,
I think to have launched three daughters who I know had busy, high school careers and in sports and music or whatever. Like there's always there was always one going somewhere, right? Or three are all going in three different directions. So to be able to say, hey, you know, they turned out okay, I think is they turned out any wonderful.
Yeah. So because of all of them. And yeah, but those squiggly lines for me. And I'm still making peace with it. Don't get me wrong. I've made peace. But it's a it's an ongoing process. But yeah, it's okay. It's okay to have squiggly lines.
I agree. I you know, because mine didn't go the way it was meant I thought it would go either, but it's all good. Okay, so coming, we're coming close to the end. And, and I wanted to share that I saw in here that you were an avid reader, and that you fell off the wagon a little bit because
other things get in the way as they do. And I know I shared with you before we went on air that, you know, I love to read to and I'm always buying books, but they sit in a pile because, you know, I sit and watch something on Netflix at night and said, because I've been in front of a screen all day. And now my eyes really hurt. And I don't want to look at a book. But I don't want to look at it on the Kindle either. I don't
like that. I would rather have the book. And so you have in one of these chapters that you that you like audiobooks, but what I wanted to get to was your book
bucket list. Oh, book bucket last year? Yes. Yes, it's a long list. And there's pressure because you know, how am I going to read all of those books, but so I went to a liberal arts college and read for four years straight need glasses, because I read so much during that time. But after college, I couldn't touch a book for a long time. And I think that's very typical. We work hard in school, and we need a break. And if you've done anything with a lot of reading
and college, you do need a break. And so I started reading again in my late 20s and 30s. But then I had kids and you know who has time to read when you're working and juggling a family? There's no way so I discovered audiobooks. And I can multitask and walk while I or exercise while I'm listening to podcasts to audiobooks and I just love it. And I started doing this during COVID. And I would find that I would be excited and couldn't wait to get out on my walk because I couldn't put the
book down. My very first audio book was Trevor Noah was born a crime. I love listening to audiobooks that are narrated by the author and my book is narrated by citing
your version now.
But audiobooks are a wonderful way to help. Check off those bucket list books. And I can't wait to continue. You know, I'd love to get out of my walks because what's the last one
that you listen to?
Oh my goodness. I have listened to so many will and my Maya So, you'll laugh my last one was how to give a TED talk. Oh, wow. Okay. And that was fabulous. Fabulous. And I also recently listened to Jay Shetty his book. love science. That was a really good one to do when
you wrote this book you had you were just going to read. I love the titles. I mean, the cleverness, losing my virginity and finding my virginity, Richard Branson,
right, and those who read hardcopy, okay. And he didn't narrate them. They do. They are actually on my list to do the audiobook, because those two books were probably two of the most inspiring books I have ever read. And Richard is just he is my hero. He is at my table. I hope I can meet him someday. Oh, wow. I really, really do. And I met these two women who worked for him. And they worked as misuses for him on Necker Island, when he went cold retreats. And they were
they were the people that did the massage or everybody. Were taking breaks in their corporate retreat. I don't know what it was. But anyway, I felt like oh, my gosh, you, you know him. So I helped this connection to Richard, but I have a deep connection with him. I quote his, his talk with his granny book, and because his granny was 99. And she said, you know, the best years of my life. I've been in my 90s. And what a wonderful way to look back on your life that now as an adult woman, she
is happier than she's ever been. I shared that with my mother. And she burst out laughing. I said, No, not the experience she's had.
So I heard someone else say that Carol Burnett. Oh, yeah.
Yeah. So I asked, I aspire to be that kind of woman that looks at my later years as the best years of my life. So that was Richard who inspired me so
so you know, I have a connection to him to Zoo. Yes. So a good friend of mine, Jordan Adler, who is an affiliate with a company I'm with, he's an amazing network marketer and speaker and author. And he is on the list that he paid money to go to space with Richard Branson. Okay, so he's already gone to Necker Island a couple of times with the group of people that are going on this mission, when when their time comes, because the first one went up with, with all the, you
know, just Richard. And so they're getting ready. So yeah, so he's, and he speaks, he shares experiences at the, at the, at Richard's home with us about it, and it's free. It's fast.
It's an amazing man. And anybody who has ever seen those books knows what a commitment that is, because they are not short books, they are very fat 150 500 pages. But really, highly recommend them. But you know, what he taught me is that anything's possible. It just his journey of starting Virgin Records and how it all came together. There was no plan. It was just, it just happened. And he, he is the kind of person that just jumps in an opportunity when it presents
itself. And nothing's impossible to him.
Right? Doesn't he say? Doesn't he say say yes, and then figure it out?
Exactly. Well, this has been
wonderful talking to you. And I'm so excited because your book is fairly new. Yes, it's quite new. And you're getting out there talking to people about it. And I'm sharing it with people by doing this, I hope that you'll get some more people listening and and reading your book. And I feel so blessed to have met you. So thank you so much for being on the podcast. And maybe if you have one last pearls of wisdom for my audience, that would be awesome.
So if you want a seat at the table, remember that you already have it, you just helped to build out your table. Thank you.
Thank you, and thank you to my audience, for being here. And if you liked what you heard, please leave a review Oh, and in the shownotes I will put the information for where you can find Nori and find her book so that you can read it too. And
I have a website for the book. It's called Keeping your seat.com books on Amazon as well. And I'm on LinkedIn, Nori, Java and the only one in the world. And I hope to hear from some of your listeners. Amazing thank you so much. Thank you ever to to stay connected and be remembered