Music. Hello everyone, and welcome to this week's episode of relationships rule. My guest this week is David Saxby, a fellow Canuck. I love it, and he's got a beautiful background on be which you can't see, but a beautiful background behind him of the the Rockies. I'm thinking because David lives in Calgary, Alberta, so it's very pretty to see that scenery. Welcome to the show, David.
Good to see you. Janice, thank you for the opportunity.
Absolutely So. David calls himself an unconventional thinker for unconventional times. I kind of like that. Can you explain that?
Oh, I think that's been kind of my nature my entire life, is that I'm usually contrary to what the mainstream is. Even in business, I've done things that people in the same industry didn't do or weren't doing, and I think it's just part of the creative mind is to be able to think beyond the standard sort of thought process of most people. Well,
I interviewed a gentleman on my podcast a couple of years ago named Bill Troy, and he I just re aired that episode last month as one of my encore episodes, and he calls himself a contrarian, yes,
very similar. Yeah, where the idea came from? Okay,
okay, so, so, always thinking outside the box, perhaps, right, okay, so as a creative person, okay, so you've actually kind of been in both worlds. I mean, I see that you you and from our conversations previous that you are in the digital world very much. So a lot of your business is done through digital platforms and so on. You've authored three books. That's the creative side you, but you and your newest book is coming out next spring, I think, called Ignite innovative
thinking. Is that correct? Yes, still on track to come out next spring?
Yes, exactly. And it's that came from the concept that I always sort of took creativity for granted, ooh, because I grew up being a creative kid, and I was always involved in art and music and all those sorts of things. So I took it for granted. When I got into the ad industry, I started to think, what happens if it stops what happens if one day I just walk in the advertising agency? I got no ideas. I can't
figure anything out. And so I started to really study creativity, the brain, how we think up ideas, how we can execute ideas, and that sort of thing. And it, it helped me with my business, because I started out in the creative side of the advertising industry, and then I Yeah. Mad Men, exactly, yeah. That's, that's more like a reality show for me. It's, I watch it, they go, Oh my God, yes. That's the
world was like, yeah. It was brilliant, though, that show, it was, it is,
yeah. And you know, what's interesting is a lot of the ads that they put together on that show as part of the program were actual ad campaigns. And
I think I read, I know we're going aside here, but I love it, because Wasn't it a woman who was the actual I read somewhere, maybe in Vanity Fair, that this woman who was that a big wig in the ad industry, which, by the way, was unheard of really right back in season, whatever. But she was responsible for a lot of those big ads. I'm thinking in my head, Alka Seltzer. I don't know why, but that might have been one of them, plot, plot, because, yeah, there were some
others. And I think they, they, they the the base of Mad Men, had some of those things in it. And, and the character, the woman, character that Elizabeth Moss played, was based on this woman. Yes, it was actually, I don't remember her name, but
do you she was? No, I don't remember her name either. You
know what I'm talking about. Then Absolutely. Ah, okay, okay. I'm sorry I sidetracked, but that, yeah, so So you so in your study of the industry and of creativity, you probably came across all of this. And so you said that it helps you with your business. But did it? Did your did it help you stay on track creatively and not, you know, thinking like feeling more confident that you weren't going to lose that. Yeah,
and for me, it was like creativity when I was growing up came pretty naturally, but I realized that there are ways of prompting creativity. There's ways of being able to. Feed creativity. And then as I got into business, I started out on the creative side, like I mentioned, then I moved into an ad agency, so you had to have both the creative side, or the right brain thinking, along with the logical linear side, which was being able to plan campaigns and
organize and all of that sort of thing. And then at that point, I realized that there was a lot of creativity in the business of advertising, but the challenge became, if it wasn't tied to strategy, then it was just a great idea, but had no traction.
Example, well,
yeah, I'm just trying to think of one. The challenge, being, in a lot of cases, is, is that businesses came up with ideas that didn't gain traction. Actually, a good example, I don't know if you're familiar with Quiznos. They were a sandwich maker, yes, and they came up with an idea based on the fact that they observed subway, right? And subway didn't have ovens. So quiznus came along and said, Well, if we cook the sandwiches, if we toast the sandwiches, people buy it
because they like warm meals, right? Great, creative idea, right?
Wasn't it? Wasn't it a Canadian company?
I don't recall. I think it is an American company franchised in Canada, okay, but what was interesting about that is they found a loophole that gave them a bit of traction in
the industry. The challenge with it is they hadn't thought the strategy out very well, because all subway had to do was supply all their franchisees with an oven, and kuznos was toast, no. And, and so in that circumstance, then they realized that, oh, they're not getting the traction they expected in the marketplace, subway was still the number one franchise. So then they came along with these really wacky ad campaigns
with his ugly looking character with a hat on. Oh, it. It was actually very like looking at the characters going, Oh my God, that's ugly, yeah. So, yeah. So anybody thinking about getting a sandwich, all they could think of is this character, yeah. And, and from there, they lost a lot of traction in the market. So creative idea, you know, they found a loophole they could, you know, saturate the market for what they were trying to do. But
they couldn't carry it out any further. And then they started doing really crazy ad campaigns that, you know, were, were not well thought up. Let's
put it that way, right? And so it didn't. So they died, basically, yeah, yeah.
Well, and one of the franchise when one of the franchisers who owned several stores actually got so frustrated with Quiznos and everything going on that he committed suicide. Oh, dear, yeah, so I mean sad story, and, you know, again, an example of creativity, but not being carried through thinking strategy. They weren't thinking, Okay, interesting anyway, so a little bit of a Segway, but
that's interesting. So do you feel that the work that you do in your company spark communications allows you to create, to be still the creative?
Yeah, i i My focus is still coming up with innovative ideas, and that's another thing. I talk more about innovation than I do about creativity, because creativity is a component of innovation, but innovation is creative plus execution, okay for implementation.
So tell, tell my audience a little bit about Spark communications, because I have here in my notes that you help businesses create a strategic advantage over your their competitors by developing in innovative marketing strategies which, which is basically what you just said, and you have that that added advantage of having that creative background, I think, when you're talking to business owners about their marketing that a lot of marketers don't
have, if that makes sense, because they're not All ad people. They're not all people who've created those kinds of things. So tell me what your secret sauce is with with Spark communications with your clients.
Well, I think, as I mentioned to you while ago, we have a I have a formula that I kind of follow when it comes. To working with clients, so that the first part of the formula is strategy first, not tactics. And a lot of businesses make the mistake is they go out and they do all these things, and then they go, oh, that didn't work, or this worked and that didn't work. So if you have the right strategy, the tactics fall into place, and then the second part for a second. So
I want to make sure I understand it, because I know we're building up the word spark with the things that you
do. So the strategy, and I'm just going to pull it a little bit for a second to relationships rule, okay, this, I would think has, have you already got an idea, or are you thinking first, okay, this is the type of business it is, and so with it being, say, an online business or or a brick and mortar business, the strategy will be different as to how we promote this business, or how we market this business, absolutely okay. So strategy first, we haven't come up with the ideas yet for you
and the strategy, strategy actually comes from me, observing the industry, looking at, you know, the trends going on in the industry, the competitors that are in the industry, and literally looking for gaps, okay, looking at what the competitors are doing, and going, Okay, where is the gap? Okay? And so when I find the gap, that becomes an opportunity to strategically enter the industry. For the business, and
for a lot of businesses, they're commodities. You know, you look at Pizza joints, every corner you look on in the city is a pizza joint. So what makes one different from another one?
Okay? And so that's where you start. Okay with strategy. Okay, go ahead. So
then the second part is positioning. And so there's an expression that came from the two fellows that first came up with the concept of positioning recent trout. And what they basically say is that it's not what you do to the product or service. It's what you do in the mind of the customer, sure, perception. It's the perception, exactly and people, most of us, have preconceived notions of almost everything in the world. Can I
give you one that's on my mind right now, that yeah, Rogers and Shaw joined forces? Yeah, so to speak. Ever since Shaw has become Rogers. I have had the worst time with them. I cannot get through. I have an hour and a half to get on, to wait on the phone, to get a customer service agent to help me with the bill that is wrong that I'm trying to write because I'm being a good consumer, and I can't get
through to them, and I'm ready to just tear my hair out. So my perception of this thing is so bad right now?
Yeah, well, here's an interesting story for letting me vent. Here's an interesting story. Is before Shaw cable became Shaw cable, they were a little company called capital cable. They had eight stations in Western Canada, and I was connected with them through a fellow I knew, through a volunteer organization, and I became their first kind of marketing consultant, yeah. So they were launching their company and going public and becoming Shaw cable.
Oh, you were with Shaw, that's right, I forgot, yeah. So
when that happened, the first thing that they were going to do is they were going to put together their annual report and send it out to potential investors, okay? And so I was put in touch with the accountant, and he said, Yeah, we're just going to take the financial statement, we'll slap a cover on it and stick it in an envelope and mail it out. And I
said, No, do not do that, right? And so we went through a process, and I told them, you know, basically, I said to him, what we need to do is we need to tell the story, and we need to package the story in the way that's going to get these high value investors intrigued and interested in investing in the company. Oh, no, we're just going to send out financial statements. I got a budget of $2,000 yeah. That include
Bailey, yeah, yeah. So that started out, and the first thing that happened when we we built a proper Annual Report with a nice cover on it and background story and so on, is that some of these very high end investors, and we're talking, you know, millions and millions of dollars very well. A few people wrote a note back to Jim Shaw and said, fantastic. This is great. Congratulations on the launch of your company. We look forward to
next year. And Jim and I had a conversation after that, and every year after that, my would meet with the VP, and Jim would pop into the meetings. And what are you planning for this year's annual report? And so we grew the company literally by telling the story of what was going on,
so interesting that I would have to
vote today. That's so and this, this is even more interesting is that back when all the specialty channels launched, this is the late 80s, early 90s. The specialty channels weren't getting enough traction in the market, and there was a fear that they were all going to go broke. So the CRTC, the regulating body, said to the cable companies, you have to take on these companies and sell them to your subscribers. So literally, they forced them to take over marketing,
especially companies. So we did a campaign for Shaw to launch this. And basically what we did was what was called a negative option campaign. And what that meant is, you got this package. We're sending out information about these specialty channels. If you're interested in having these specialty channels, you don't need to do anything. I
hated that negative campaign. You don't want them cancel them. Yeah.
So anyway that that gained great traction, we had a 94% subscription rate by default. Rogers came along just shortly after that with the same kind of campaign, and miserably failed and had to restart their campaign. So
what was the difference?
Just how they approached it, the message and literally, how they strategized him. Okay, so we personalized. And this is, this is really something was quite unheard of at the time. And this is kind of when my my brain, went into the innovative mode. Yes, was we personalized every single person's letter. And in those days, in the early 80s, that was almost impossible. We went to Canada Post and said, Here's what we want to do. And they said, we don't think we could do
it. Mail Merge. Yes, exactly, yeah. And in those days, it was done on a mainframe computer, I know. Oh my goodness. So we had 606 100 and some odd 1000 personalized letters went out. Okay,
so I'm going to come back to the Shaw Rogers thing later. Yeah, strategy, positioning,
positioning, yeah. So positioning is, it's, it's how we, in the mind of the customer, got them to buy into the concept. And the billboard advertising we had, and the other promotion we did, we had a picture of a silver platter, you know, that they use for catering. And it said, think of it as a smorgasbord. In other words, you've got all these options. You don't have to eat everything at once.
Okay, so perception was part of that positioning we come to attracting attention? I think,
yeah, so an attracting attention is really about, you know, what's your message? What's the media that you transfer your message through? And it has to be a
place where your customers are. So the target market, and the concept behind that is that the media will kind of pop up or come up as you think of how you're going to communicate with your customers, because nowadays we can research where people go and find information, whether it's Google or they're going on to paid ads or they're on TV or radio or print, or whatever channel they're going through. So the the concept being, is that once you've done that, then it's a matter of figuring out,
okay, how can we deliver a message effectively? So there's a there's a rule in the billboard industry way back when, and that was basically an effective billboard with six to eight words and an image, that's all you had to work with. Now that's a slide. Yes, exactly, yeah. So the medium changes, but the message doesn't, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, and then at that point, it's a matter of moving to the next stage, which is the resources. And what that simply means is that you've got only a
handful of resources. One is people, the other one was time, and the third one is your media selection. So if you have the people, you can do the work marketing wise, internally, but they need to know what they're doing, and they need to understand the whole concept of marketing. Uh. If you have the time, you can hire a consultant, or you can hire a marketing firm and pay them. But in a lot of cases, people do the opposite.
They figure, oh, we got lots of people. We have no clue what we're doing, but we'll just use enough people to clobber the internet with messages,
yes, yes, okay, the last one, okay, yeah,
and that's about keeping the keeping your competitive edge. What? What I mean by that is just simply continuing to market. So some businesses are all year round. Some businesses are seasonal, so you need to be able to continue being competitive in the market by, you know, adjusting your budget, adjusting your messaging, determining when the biggest share of your market's available. So online as an example. And if you look at LinkedIn, a lot of businesses
are online in the daytime, right? And, you know, generally, Tuesday, Wednesdays are the best dates of the week to put messages out on LinkedIn, right? Yeah. So the concept with that is that, if you're doing marketing correctly, it's an investment, well, incorrectly, it's a cost,
Okay, fair enough. I do think, yeah, you're talking about paid ads on LinkedIn, as opposed to posting and things like that, right?
Oh, no, same, same thing. Okay,
I think today, I really do think that there's people online all the time, all around the world, so absolutely, yeah, it really does depend on your audience, and whether it's global or whether it's local, and so forth as well. Because I think we get a bit too hung up on that myself, but maybe bigger companies would have to pay more attention to that. I don't know. Well,
yeah, and it's also, you know, what's your industry doing? You take the construction industry, yeah, what are they doing the warm season? They're going 24/7, right? They're trying to make as much money and do as much work as they can, right? So on the shoulder seasons, when they're ramping up particularly, I mean, you look at Alberta in BC they
can pretty well work all year round. But in Alberta, there's times of the year where deal with weather, yeah, so, so that's kind of the formula that I I work to when I'm working with clients. As I look at that formula and say, Okay, what's going on in their industry? You know, what's their market doing? Yeah, and then where do we go from here? Where do we find the gap? And so
do you think there's one or two common mistakes that that people make in like, what you ask people what their biggest problem might be, or their you know, did? Did the same ones come up all the time?
I would say generally, yeah. I mean, first one is they get the wrong target market and or a lot of businesses. So you ask them, who's your target market? They go, Oh, everybody, yeah. They have no, yeah, if you got lots of money, it could be a roof, yeah, yeah. But that's, that is big, okay, yeah. So that's, I think, a big one, the second one
is confusing messages and and I see this all the time. I work a lot with professionals, and I see this all the time that they talk from a technical perspective, or they talk from
industry speak, trying to reach their customers. And you know, you look at computer technology, when computers became mainstream and people were putting one in their house, you'd go to a computer store or a computer sales person, they'd start talking bits and bytes and RAM and ROM and yeah, all sorts of technical terms, the customers going, Well, can I type on it? Yeah, exactly. So that, I think the confusing message part is
the second 1/3, one is they've got a confusing brand. You know, a lot of businesses use their own personal name when they start up, you know, a name like Smith. Well, good luck with marketing that, because there are hundreds of 1000s of Smiths around the world, so the brand isn't attractive. It does not have the right message. It doesn't match the thinking and the mindset, the preconception of what a business should be. They're not consistent. They don't have a process or a
system. So they're not doing it from a strategic point of view, they're just throwing things out and seeing what sticks, and then even more so with digital media and technology. Now they're doing poor lead generation. They're not using like, you know, you work on LinkedIn. They're not using the LinkedIn system to be able to generate good. Eves are just fishing.
Yeah, a lot. Okay, here's a question for you. Many businesses focus on technology and automation in their marketing. How do you balance the use of technology with the need to build meaningful relationships with customers?
Oh, yeah, that's an interesting one. I think the first thought should always be, what's my customer thinking? What's my customer doing? Where does my customer hang out? So the relationship part comes from understanding the psychology of the customer, understanding that sociology, that's how the group thinks the the segment of the market, yeah, and and then figuring out the demographics behind that market. And there's
an interesting book came out called pre suasion. I don't know if you've ever read it, but titles cover, yeah, and it's all about how we influence and persuade customers to buy. And the first book that it's Robert chial, chill, chill Dini, I think it is,
oh, C, I a, l, yeah. You wrote
a book before that called influence, but what he realized was that when it comes to relationships and working with people and trying to give people to buy into a concept or a marketing campaign or whatever it is, it all begins with preparing the audience's mind to receive the message. So the the challenge there is that there's so much clutter going on in our heads that, you know, how do we cut through? How do we cut through that clutter? So, it's about timing. It's about
creating associations with pre, pre seed or perceptions. It's about framing the concept, the idea, it's about building trust and connection.
So do you think, though, that that's done better today, online or in person or face, face to face? Well, face to face, like even if it's like this, not just, not necessarily in person, but telephone, I mean, that's it's an old fashioned tool, but I think it's coming back.
Well, yeah, and there's in the sales process, or in in selling, one of the things that's challenging for salespeople is if they can't see the person. So on screen, we're seeing about this much of us, so if they can't see the person, they don't know how to read, how the customers understanding the
information. And so in language, using language, salespeople can break through that lack of visual perception by understanding the language of the people and what they're saying and the gaps in in the messaging so and a lot of that has to do with what's called neuro linguistic program program, right? And so most sales people, they just, you know, they hear something, they take it for granted, or they
take it literally. But in some cases, and if you're dealing with different personality styles, what people say and what people are actually thinking and doing are different perceptions, different so in a relationship situation, the context is also a factor. Yes, yes, right. So it's and, you know, we even when we went from face to face selling to online doing zoom calls, again, we don't know. All we could see is this much of a
person. We don't know what they're doing. They could be sitting there in their underwear, and we have no clue, but that's okay.
Who cares? Yeah, exactly. It's just, it's, how do you how are it's whether you have the ability to relate through the screen. That's exactly it, right? Yeah, and that has never bothered me, but I'm, always I guess I'm of the generation that the first tool that I would ever choose would be to pick up the phone, because that's how I grew
up. And I had a funny story my little granddaughter, who's five, she called us the other night on FaceTime, or my my daughter called on FaceTime, and my granddaughter wanted to talk, but when we came and said, Hi, how are you, she had a play phone up to her ear, and she said, Could you call me back? I'm on another call.
Yeah, that's funny. I
was like, what could you call me? Back. I'm on another call, and then I just saw a picture of her. She got herself dressed, and she has her phone in her pocket.
Hilarious. Wow,
yeah, so it Yeah. Anyway, I want to switch gears for a second, because I feel that you are a a master speaker in that you were one of the founding members of your chapter of caps, which is the Canadian version of Canadian Association of Professional speakers. And I am in awe of people who have done a lot of speaking and have been part of that organization, because it takes a lot to do the kind of you know, to get paid
for speaking and things like that. But are you still involved with them at all?
Oh, very much. So yeah, I'm not on a board anymore, right? I probably spent about eight years in my my career as a board member in some level, okay, and became the president. And, yeah, yeah.
And so, how would that? How would you say that has been beneficial in your career?
Oh, well, you know, it's interesting. I started out having a pure public speaking.
I was actually, Oh, you did okay.
Oh yeah, yeah. When I was growing up, I had two thoughts about careers. One was advertising, yeah. The other one was being a professional musician. Mm, hmm. So I was literally going to music school, and I was I was signing up for college to learn about the advertising business in the industry, and I had a group of students I was teaching in music. We went to a festival like the Kiwanis festival.
What did you what instrument did you play?
Guitar? Okay. Anyway, the night before the the competition, the band that I was training to perform the guitar player phoned me up and said, we can't go. And I said, Why is that our singers lost her voice, his voice, I should say. And I said, Oh, well, that's going to be a problem. And they said, You have to sing for us. Ah, and I had never sung in front of 650 people in my life, but they
knew that you could sing like that was, that was, no, they didn't. I mean,
I would sing, but it was just kind of in the studio as we were teaching the kids. So the night before I went home, memorized the lyrics. We went up to the event. It was up in Edmonton. We got up on stage together and started singing. I started singing and playing. They they were playing guitar. I didn't play guitar for that, the power cut. All that was left was my voice and a set of drums that we're doing back in the USSR by the Beatles. When I walked off that stage and I said, Screw
this music business I can't do. It's way too stressful. Oh, my goodness, would not get on a stage again. Then I got into business, and I went, Okay every night before I have to do a major presentation, I was talking to guys that were old enough to be my dad or granddad, about parting with millions of dollars of ad campaigns and I would be sweating bullets a night before I'd show up and as best as I could present, and most of the time it went well, but I said, Okay, I can't deal
with this. I I've got to learn how to do presentations. So I joined a group called The JCS Junior Chamber of Commerce. They had an eight week program, yeah, and I went through that program and learned, you know, what it takes to put together professional presentations. And what was interesting is, when I first went in, I said, the guy leading the program, I said, I'm just sitting at the back here taking notes. And of course, who's the first guy he picked on? Yeah. And when we finished
the program, he said, I want you to lead the next one. And I looked at him, I said, No, I got my notes. I'm good. I'm out of here. He said, No, I'd like you to leave the next one. I said, No, we're not doing it. And he said, How about you and I lead it together? So I said, Okay, well, yeah, we can do that. So we led the program together. The next year he came back and he said, I'd like you to lead the next program. Interesting. And I said, we already had that conversation. Yeah, I got my
notes. I tried it once I'm out of here, I'm good. And he says, Well, no, you have to. I mean, I have to. And he said, you're the only guy that knows the program I'm leaving the country. And that was my introduction to speaking. So I did training for volunteers and and through the through the group. And then I got people asking me, would you come out and do a presentation for our business or not for profit organization? And started
to do that. And. Then the next thing, one day, I woke up, just shortly after I had the marketing the advertising agency went, you know, I could probably get some clients if I went out and did presentations, right? So started doing that, and, of course, attracting clients. And that's how I built the marketing firm. Sure,
interesting and and, of course, you're, you are a doer, obviously, because once you got involved, then you had to get involved, right? Like, yeah, that was interesting. Um, no, it's fascinating. I, I've dabbled a little bit early on in Toastmasters, and I have experienced a little bit of caps in Vancouver. They have a pretty strong group here, but yeah, and I have spoken on big on bigger stages, but I never had any
training. And so I think the piece that's missing for me is how to tell a story properly, and that I know is is so important in speaking on stage. So
story is a big part of it. And actually, you know, flipping back to the whole aspect of marketing and advertising is used to be, if you had a catchy slogan and a brand, you could get traction in the market. People buy your product or service. But now it's more about telling the brand story. Yeah, you know Simon cynics, yeah. Why? Why? He's all about why are you in business? Why are you doing what you do?
Yeah, why do you sell what you sell? And it's telling the story of how that came about, or why your business does what it does. Mm, hmm, yeah,
yeah. Times have changed, but we also have a lot more competition. There's a lot more information thrown at us daily as well, and all this stuff. So we have to, we have to be, I think, stand out from the crowd, being sincere and being caring. I really think that that, that, to me, is the major difference. I had it. I'm not going to go into it. I'll tell you another time, but I customer service, for me is so vital, and when I come across customer service that isn't they don't
care, it drives me insane. We just had a 10 day vacation. We stayed at this really cool boutique hotel in North Hollywood. And yes, it's a really cool hotel. And every person that I came across there that worked at that hotel was so good they'd step out of the way if you were going to the elevator. They wouldn't get on with their big carts with you. They'd always wait. They'd say, how are you? They'd be it was all every single person was. Was that's what you want. You want
that feeling absolutely that you're being cared for. Anyway, we talk for hours, and I have to wrap this up, because time is of the essence. Here, fabulous to speak to you today. You have a free ebook. I understand that people can access, and I need to make sure I have the link so I can put it in the show notes. You want to tell us about it?
Sure? Yeah. The the ebook is really an overview of the things that I do marketing wise. It's called spark innovative marketing, yeah, and so it's it basically encapsulates a lot of the things that need to be done in the process of of developing marketing strategy and then carrying it through. And I think the big thing, if I was to leave people with anything, is that marketing is a process. It's not an event. Most people think, Oh, I did, did something. It's done
like in Yeah, early on. So it is a process. And in that book, I talk about some of the different ways that you know you can be effective at marketing and advertising and all of the different aspects of marketing. And I think the second thing, in conjunction with that is that marketing and sales need to work
together. I don't know how many businesses I go into, the marketing departments one end of the hallway, the sales departments at the other, and they pass each other in the hallway and don't even talk to each other,
and some people who think they're both the same. So have another conversation about that. Another day. I'll bring you back, because I think that's very important. Yeah, yeah, they
cross over the words marketing and sales and branding and throw them all into a mix and understand any of them.
Yeah, exactly so. And you definitely have the background, have the experience, have the wisdom to help people who are in business today. I know that from talking to you, I know that from looking at your work, and I also feel the the caring that you have for what you do, the passion for what you what you do, and and I'm sure you've helped a lot of people along the way. So. That that will speak to that.
I'm hoping so, yeah, I've, I've made some plans fairly rich. Let's put it that way.
Yeah, okay, so they can find you at Spark communications.com, on LinkedIn, on Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and your email, if I may, put in the show notes as well, if people are for sure, yeah, okay. And your free ebook is on your website, on a specific yes
it is, yeah. And I think I sent you the link as well in your
well, I'll double check with you after for sure. Yeah. Well, thank you, David. Thank you for being here, thank you for sharing and thank you to my audience again for being here. Remember to stay connected and be remembered.
Thanks. Jess, you're welcome.