Supporting Dads: Breaking the Stigma on Men's Mental Health in Prenatal and Postpartum Stages

I am a mom of three and I have a doctor degree in neuroscience , and I'm here to share the science with you that I could find that is relevant to parents , specifically around emotional health , well-being and mental illness in both your child and yourself , because you matter too .

So today we are talking about dads dads in mental health , their role in parenting , their role in the prenatal stage , the postpartum stage . There are lots of conversations that we need to have around dads , and that's what I'd like to have today with Dr Deborah DeCosta , who's a researcher here at McGill University in Montreal .

I also invited Travis back on the podcast . He was somebody I interviewed , along with Emanuel a little while back , and I've been following him since and we've been in touch back and forth .

I love the work that he's doing and I thought it would be great to have his perspective for this conversation that we'll be having with Dr DeCosta , so he'll be there as my guest co-host in today's episode , as always . Before we begin , i'd like to thank the Tannenbaum Open Science Institute here at the Neuro in Montreal for supporting the Kirsten Rohn podcast .

It means the world to me to have the support of an academic institution here in Montreal , and I'd also like to thank you , the listener , for taking the time to listen to this podcast and supporting the work that I do . This work is really important to me . It's not a paid job .

It's something that I do on my free time because I want to make sure that you have access to the science . It means everything to me when you subscribe to the podcast , when you send me an email at infoiKirstenRohncom , when you rate it or review it , as well on Spotify or on Apple Podcast . So please take a moment to do this and let me know .

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I wanted to preface this episode by giving you a bit of the why behind this specific episode and topic . You know that with Kirsten Rohn , i've often covered parents and tried to cover both moms and dads , because I think that it is important that we give both moms and dads a voice , also , when it's either Mother's Day or Father's Day .

I know that this can be a hard time for some people , and the reason why I do want to cover dads is because I personally grew up without a father . I mean , he was there until it was about 10 or 11 . But even when he was in the home , he really wasn't present . He wasn't an active father , connected father .

He was just a human person in my home and just never connected with me or my brother . My brother was a bit younger .

So I think that it's important that we do talk about dads , because perhaps out there there's a dad like mine who maybe feels that his role is an important or maybe struggles with mental health , which is the case of my own father , which I only realized later as an adult , doesn't justify the way that he was .

But it's just that I strongly feel that we need to start talking about this a lot more openly , but with curiosity and compassion , which is what I do with everything with Kirsten Rohn . Every time I talk about kids , every time I talk about moms and rage , which is what we spoke about a couple episodes ago .

When I talk about dads and mental health , i'm hoping that we can create this world where we can be compassionate together , where we can be curious about the differences that we have between each other , whether we're parents or in society and neighbors , coworkers .

Approaching through curiosity and compassion is what allows us to connect with others and understand others and walk in their shoes and understand their behavior too , sometimes . So this is the angle that I'm taking for today's episode and I want you to understand why I cover this and why I will continue to cover this .

It's because there are people out there who need to hear this conversation that I'm going to have today with Dr Ducosta and with Travis . So I hope you enjoy my conversation with them and I will see you on the other side . Welcome back everyone to the Kirsten Rohn podcast . I'm Cindy , your host , and today's a very special episode .

Not only do I have Dr Ducosta here , a researcher , local researcher here in Montreal , but I also have Travis as a co-host . Welcome back , travis , to the podcast .

I connected with you about a year-ish ago because I had come across your research and really thought that it was important for us to talk about this a little bit more . You cover a lot .

There's some studies that I was looking at where you look at what dads have been searching for when their wives are expecting , what the barriers are to their research and learning , and mental health as well , in different phases of no fatherhood . There's a lot that you cover . So where do we begin with this conversation ?

It's such an important one , but you're covering all the way from even before conception , right From what I understand , when it comes to dads and mental health .

So if we want to talk about child development et cetera , there are , i think , teachable moments where we can start at preconception when people are thinking about having a child . Now , of course , there's unplanned pregnancies that happen quite a bit , but for about two years before people start being talking , it's on the agenda .

So it's a good time to intervene as well in terms of just preconception education , which there's very little out there tailored to men . So that study you're referring to , where we asked fathers what they wanted in a website that was going to be a psychoeducational or informative to prepare them to be dads .

What was most striking for me is that a lot of fathers reported the majority of fathers reported that they were going online during their partner's pregnancy and during the postpartum to find out information about how do I support my wife , what is this going to be like , what is fatherhood going to be like , and they were extremely disappointed that there was very

little evidence-based information out there for fathers . So I thought , okay , they're going out there , but the kind of information they're getting is very suboptimal . So we asked them what they wanted and we had a whole menu of things And some of my colleagues said , oh , we know what they want , don't bother with the needs assessment .

I said no , i think we need to do a needs assessment . And they were surprised over some of the things that men ranked in the top five or six . And we did this study in Montreal , toronto and Calgary , so it was not just in one province . And we asked fathers whose partners were expecting or who had a child under , i think , the age of two .

So it was pretty representative in terms of their experience already . So things like work-life balance was really important to fathers . How to support my partner was like the top one during pregnancy and afterwards . So they wanted strategies , they wanted tips on what would be effective .

The fathers wanted information on how to soothe their child , how to play with their child And , importantly , fathers wanted information on what is fatherhood going to be like . You know , they were insecure , it seemed to me , about the role and how to prepare for the role .

So I thought that was really fascinating And we really I mean we added other things that we felt was important as well And that some indicated an interest , like sleep , like healthy eating , exercise , which we had a physical activity challenge embedded in the prototype website .

So , if I fast forward , we pilot tested this website , after developing it , with input from fathers as well as a multidisciplinary team , and we randomized 76 fathers expectant fathers to either a control group or the healthy dads intervention , where they had a during pregnancy for a period of eight weeks , but they still had access to it . Afterwards .

We assessed them at steady entry eight weeks after , while the partner was still pregnant , and at two and six months postpartum , and we looked at depressed mood , we looked at parenting stress , we looked at various variables , but importantly was a pilot study . So we looked at are they gonna use it ? Where are they gonna go on the website ?

What's gonna be most interesting to them ? And we got identical findings to the needs assessment , even though it was different men , no one went to the healthy eating nobody . They went to the fatherhood What's fatherhood gonna be like ? That was the top one How do I support my partner ? How do I play and soothe with my child .

It was all these hands on things for someone else , not so much for them . So it was interesting . We had about 50% of men joined the physical activity challenge and track their steps every day . So it's not for everyone , but it's for a subgroup .

Even 50% is still important , and some of them didn't join because they were already exercising and they were doing their own thing . So we were excited about these findings . We submitted and we submitted this grant and we finally got funding to do stage two , and that's what I wanted to talk . I wanted to see if we can penetrate the US market .

Since we've already developed something And really we're gonna try to make it as engaging as possible . It would be nice to test it alongside with one that's done for women , because we've also developed healthy moms And I think that as a couple unit , even though it's very gender specific , we used a gender lens .

I think that offering it as a package would probably be quite beneficial , but that's just my hypothesis .

to me How do I even know that they have signs or symptoms of depression or anxiety postpartum , so in healthy moms .

So it's really I mean , it's a menu of modules that people can just browse and pick what they think is most interesting for them at that point in their life .

That's a common question I get , and how do I support that ? Or how do I know And what do I do with that Kind of feeling ill equipped ? And then something else I hear a lot of dads when they become a dad they feel isolated . I think a big one , big change in friendship relationships .

Is this something that you're hearing as well ? This is big one too . Yes , yeah , i'm wondering . You know , with the research , it's very clear that we need to do more , but these particular studies were a couple of years ago and now you're moving on to the next phase . That's a big gap in the amount of years and we're not seeing anything change .

You know , clinically or with . Even for myself , after giving birth to all three kids , nothing was that . No questions were asked . My husband was there with me at all appointments and they never even spoke to him . So this , i feel , is something that could change .

Right ? And she called me because this was her second child and he never asked her that the first time . So it's baby steps . But you know , i think that platforms like this are so important to put it on the agenda and have healthcare professionals as well as parents listen to this and hear this , because if they're not asking , then we should ask .

We should ask about . You know , are there resources ? This is how I think my partner's feeling . How can I help him ?

We cannot say here's a referral and then have it take eight months .

And so I think in our system too , i think if there is a referral made , it's gonna be within a particular healthcare network or private pay , and so , depending on the person can afford private pay . You know , do they or they aware of it ? So I don't . It's still not a common thing . My friend's giving birth . They're not asked . Still in the US , i mean .

Now I I think it does happen , but it's not the norm . Yeah , in fact I was talking to a new buddy of mine , new friend of mine through Some mutual friends of ours that are doing their own app for men , and he just had his second kid , uh , six weeks ago , and wasn't asked . So Wow depending on You know , i had a , we had midwifery care .

We went , different than your traditional standard care , and in the US We paid out of pocket for midwife care because we saw the . I was asked , i was asked by the our and our post follow-up Midwifery appointment . She , she would check in , but that's not the norm .

Though That's not the norm , so it is , but these are people that I think they're definitely more aware of like kind of that holistic approach . Yeah , and so they're , they're just conscious of it .

So can we talk a little bit about that , because I do want to like swing the pendulum a little bit to the other side of if We ignore this right within our home , if we ignore this within ourselves , what are we seeing in that particular father and and their relationship with their child ?

So we're currently doing a study called fathers matter where we're looking at father involvement during the pregnancy , factors that are related to that as this is a CihR funded and And how whether father involvement influences how involved they're going to be with the child in the first six months of their life , so that we're really excited about .

We are collecting data on child outcomes as well , behavioral outcomes , etc . And you know there's good data out there to show longitudinal studies from the UK Showing that even after controlling for mom's depressive mood , when fathers are depressed , it has an impact on The development of the child cognitive development , behavioral development .

It's just there and these effects Go into adolescence . So it's not short term . All the more reason why we need to put fathers on the agenda . Dads matter . Dads get sad too .

There were many that were involved , but the handful that weren't involved , how does a mom who hears this right now and says my partner isn't involved and seems very disconnected from our baby Is it their beliefs ? Can it be that they feel that this is not their role ? or is it depression ? Is it something more that I need to look into ?

How do they kind of figure that part out ?

I got involved in in with looking at dads because my research was on postpartum depression with women , and so during the course of my research , one of the strongest predictors of Protective factors was support from the partner .

So then I started asking myself , why are some dads not being supportive and Discovered that it's not because they didn't want the child , it's not because it was an unplanned pregnancy , but there was some sort of something else going on , either anxiety , either depressive symptoms , financial stress when a baby comes .

You know there's still the traditional norms where dad feels he needs to be provider , right . Well , if there things aren't going well on their job , if there's some sort of insecurity going on , that's gonna prevent them from being more involved because they're gonna feel more pressured To perform more at work .

I mean , it's complicated , there's a lot of factors involved , but this is just , you know , a little bit of what I've learned over the years . So I I'm originally a researcher in women's mental health , but I just feel that in order to get the complete picture , i have to widen my lens and look at dads as well .

And then also I always think about emotion regulation skills and emotions themselves , like the steps to me that are before All of this mental health stuff , because if you can't cope with the emotions or you cope with them in an unhealthy way , then that does lead to mental health issues . So Let's start with the home .

How , how do we because that's touchy , right If you notice your partner is struggling with connecting or participating or being involved , how do you start this conversation ? And I guess this is a question for both of you as well , because On the field or in research , right , like how do we begin this conversation with our partner ?

and in a conversation That's kind of difficult to have ?

But what I do see is Couples that are successful , or more successful , at navigating this are those that know each other's story , that have genuine curiosity , understanding of their kind of their life , who they are , where they come from , up , bringing home life , things like that .

Because when we have genuine curiosity , we understand our story , our empathy tends to go up .

We tend to more patience and grace for our partner because we know Some of these things that our partners might be going through aren't just because they're doing them , but because they're also dealing with some of their own childhood dynamics are kind of parenting , how they were parented or not parented , things like that And so I see that to be very helpful .

And if they're not there , if they haven't had that conversation , often what I do in my office in couples therapy is part of that is exploring each partner individually with the other , one kind of listening and looking in , especially if there's like some distress , because I want to be that safe space for them If they're too kind of escalated .

I kind of be that you talk to me and , like , your partner observes us having the conversation and they get to kind of witness and experience it , and that begins to increase empathy .

Because then , once you understand why your partner might be shutting down or numbing out , or I'm thinking of men here why they might have difficulty expressing emotions or vulnerability , it's like wow , i know that about you .

I didn't know that your dad was like this , your mom was like this , so there was alcohol in the home or whatever the circumstances might have been . Now we have this great sympathy , we can have more success . So I think that's a big thing is I always phrase that way understanding each other's story .

So that's what I find really successful and important , because it's surprising how much people , how often people , don't talk about this and they get married and have kids and it's they just kind of go through the motions , but it's like we got to go from the beginning and understand it .

So we have perspective as to why we're doing certain things , why we're thinking certain ways , of certain belief systems that might be helpful or unhelpful , depending on what they are , in order to make change . So that's where I tend to begin .

This is why you know one of the things I'm trying to do , but I will say that , in terms of recruiting male participants , when I first started working in this area , i was told good luck , you're never going to get meant to participate . I beg to differ . I have gotten very good participation from fathers . We're currently doing qualitative interviews with fathers .

So I mean , i have a number of studies going on , cindy , but another one that I have going on is called parents And it's basically one of the first studies to look at factors associated with paternity leave . I have very good paternity leave here Travis in Quebec better than the rest of Canada .

Does it have an impact on maternal mental health Hey , dad's around , there's more support . How does that change things ? And , importantly , does it have an impact on child development ? So I'm super excited about that study . We finished recruiting .

We're currently going to present some data based on baseline , like when their partner was pregnant Already , were they thinking about paternity leave ? How long ? What are the factors ? How long did they think they had at the end of the month ? at the Canadian Psychological Association , Sounds like a great study .

Travis paid Wow , paid .

So it makes sense what you were saying before about like what they're searching for , because I've heard that through dads .

But I think dads , maybe some dads don't realize that skin to skin or holding your child , or that eye contact or that the what's the word for it , but the back and forth kind of communicate , mirroring , yeah , and just like being with your child is having an impact on them and on you Reading , reading to them Exactly .

Even Travis , i think we spoke about this over the weekend but the the even an app that's for dads . how do we reach the dads Right , like , how do we communicate the importance of this ? We know there are dads out there that want to hear about it . How do we find them ? How do we get to them ?

These are good questions , ladies .

There's not a prior week that goes by . If I already get a new guy every week , i'd say minimum half , That's still like a barrier for them even coming in the door . So that's still there big time . And so I think that's a big piece in this Like , why would I engage in even the word help , mental health ? I think so It's a lot of stigma .

I mean , because I think people go and I camera was just talking to you about this but I think people are going to go to mental illness . They just think it must be . Why don't have that problem ? I'm not that bad , so they , they push things off because I'm not that bad .

And also , i think , because there's been a lack of a healthy model of healthy emotional engagement and emotional intelligence , I think there's a , there's a misunderstanding of how they actually are doing , because they're .

I think the barometer for health is quite off and isn't calibrated , because the calibration is one to avoid and not to feel and push things down , and so they kind of go about business as usual .

So when I think a new baby comes in , those dads that I think are in that category will just keep doing what they've always done , you know , surviving , pulling themselves up by their bootstraps .

But they also might drink more , they might numb out more , do other things , because , yeah , and so they get stuck I see it in my office and or they're tired and so they are , they work longer hours , and so I think they just do what they do anyway .

That they've been doing a cope , i think it is amplifies some of those other ways , and then it comes out in irritability , anger , and they may not have language for it .

And then again , sometimes , if you even address it , their barriers or defenses go up , because you know they might then feel like they're failing or not enough , or like I'm trying , and some of them think they're doing their best and they probably are within their scope of competence and what they know to do .

So in their mind , i think they are doing their best And so it's . I think that's even how sometimes it's hard to reach them , because even to open them up to that is kind of like showing that they're somehow weak or not enough or failing , which then gets them in their defense mechanism to then , you know , run away , flee or fight or get angry .

So it's tough . It's tough with those types of men that are stuck .

I mean men in therapy were the minority compared to women therapists , and then men of color is like another , even a lot of relationships and building bridges with these guys and just trying to learn what they're doing and how , what are the barriers are facing And so it's like you know you don't need to be a therapist , you know you don't need to be a

therapist .

Yeah , and I want to spend healthy dads into looking at the needs and specific resources tailored to gay dads and their journey .

You know , widely accessible , free , where men can talk to other men . Men can get resources that other guys contributed to and said you know this was cool And you know it takes you from there . We have a section that's just resources in their own community that they can then go to .

You know , there's just , there's so much , but we just need to get this on the agenda and we need to get our message across .

I remember a big question what would we do if people were trying to make change and you're hearing the talk we need to help men , but then you go to do research or get funding and it's like crickets . Like what do we do as a society if , like ? I guess that I don't know if you could answer that question .

Investors are not seeing this as important . Yet That means there's a lot of work to do , because we're a lot of work to do a lot . So it's it's almost as if this , in addition to all the research , there has to be the change in the conversation that we're having and awareness .

Excuse me , but in mental health , women have dominated the research area . Parenting We need to focus and on parenting and on perinatal period . We need to include dads because they're part of the package . That baby didn't just get there on its own ?

Or when they looked at moms and asked these questions , they noticed this about their child's emotions . And I'll get comments . Exactly , i'll get comments from , from followers saying what about me ? What about the dad ?

advocating for men and fathers .

I'm going to just go back to what I know . That's unfortunate .

And I , recently I was on a flight and this man sat beside me and his partner was on the other side . She had a baby in her hands and she said , can you get whatever it was in the bag ? And he was searching and he couldn't find it . He was looking everywhere , he just couldn't find it . And she started yelling at him . She's like why are you so stupid ?

Just find the damn thing , stop being stupid , you idiot , just . And I became so uncomfortable sitting beside him And I didn't know what to say . I didn't know what to do . I mean , he just couldn't find it . It doesn't make you dumb or an idiot . And I could just imagine at home , right ?

So I talked to parents about creating an emotionally safe space for their child to express emotions , to communicate them . But we have to look at couples and dads as well . And it's not to point fingers , as my mom's right now , but we're just looking at all the different angles . And Travis brought up such an important message .

You know , we have to create that safe space for men . And what does that look like It's the same acceptance and nurturing .

In fact , i posted a little play on this the other day . It's like touching a hot pan . When you're a kid , you learn not to touch a hot pan because that's dangerous and a threat , and so you learn I'm never going to do that again , why would I get burned ?

And so you take a guy now who's 35 , let's say so , 30 years of his life probably it was awareness and probably before 33 years told don't show emotions , otherwise you're weak , especially sadness or exotic anything that's anything other than strong . You're somehow not manly , not masculine , you're a wuss , all these things .

And now you're expected to feel , or you're being demanded to feel , well , neurologically , what's happening and , based on the nervous system state , he's going to say well , the brain already knows don't do that , that's dangerous , so they're going to shut down .

And so they're being told just feel , feel , feel what's wrong with you And it's like , well , you're just going to put them more into defensive . And so I think the lens I'm trying to get at too is like this trauma lens of like the nervous system , of like , well , we've been trained to not feel , we've trained and learned , it's not safe .

And so even that woman sitting next to you in the plane , it's like she's just doing the fry , the very thing that's been done to him , and so he's probably going to shut down , numb out , disassociate , disconnect And talk about a level of distress experiencing that I mean , that's just so distressing .

I think we get stuck in our own stuff and then it just perpetuates some of the , the tropes , some of the things , And then we don't actually heal , We just divide . And unfortunately there's a lot of accounts out there that I see in social media world that I think add more to the burning of the bridge versus the building of the bridge .

So I always love connecting with people like you . That's like let's help me because it helps everybody . You're right .

, so that we can , you know , understand each other a little bit more and support each other . Thank you to both of you for joining me today . Thank you for connecting Travis and I , yes , i'll connect you by email , but just to say also I hope there's some links that I can share , so whenever everything is available .

I know some parents here with curious neuron , love participating in research and love learning more . So , we'll be reaching out , Travis . Please share how we can reach you as well . I think it's important that we connect with you as well .

Let me know that you rated it , send me a screenshot and I will send you a free PDF called meltdown mountain , which gives your child a visual for their emotions and understanding emotions and how to regulate their emotions . So send me an email at info at curious neuron dot com .

You can visit curious neuron dot com for our blogs and the academy If you'd like to buy our new package called the curious and compassionate parent And that covers everything you need to know about emotions and understanding your past and understanding your child's emotions and how they're linked to behavior . Thank you for listening .

I'll see you next week And I'll see you guys then You .