Predicting Attachment Styles and Navigating Pregnancy: A Deep Dive with Drs. Shalaka and Alyson

Speaker 1: You know your child better than anyone else. Do the things that feel right for your kids specifically, while also making space for your own needs and your own mental health and stability. 

Speaker 2: Hello everyone, welcome back to the CureStorm Podcast. My name is Cindy Huffington and I am your host. Today, i'm joined by two very special guests that I had the pleasure of meeting and speaking with a couple times Shalaka and Allison. Welcome to the podcast. Hi Hi, i love this. 

Speaker 2: So we've connected through McGill University and first, before we actually have this conversation, i'd like to thank the Tan Baum Open Science Institute at the Neuro for supporting the CureStorm Podcast. But today we're going to have a talk that I haven't really had enough. We need to talk about two things together What's happening during pregnancy, you know, and what we need to learn from that period as well, as we're going to talk a little bit about attachment. So it's a bit of a mix, but I think that this is perfect because we really don't talk about that period enough. I do it as well, where we talk about childhood and how important childhood is, but we don't go before that And we need to take a couple steps back today. So I'd love to introduce you both and for both of you to also give us more information, but Shalaka is completing or finishing off your PhD, is that-? 

Speaker 1: I just submitted my dissertation on Thursday. 

Speaker 2: Nice congratulations, that's huge. So, yes, she's at the end in child psychology. And what is it You were saying that you study attachment. What is it specifically that you study? 

Speaker 1: Yeah, so my dissertation specifically revolves around predicting attachment And we're looking at biological predictors such as genetic makeup of the child, how that interacts with exposure to prenatal stress in utero So when the mother is pregnant with the child and then also postnatal time point, meaning after the child is born, the parenting, and how all these three factors come together to influence the development of attachment when the kids are about-. We're studying 36 months, but we're hoping to continue studying other time points too. I love that. 

Speaker 2: It's such important research And I know that parents have a lot of questions and I know there's a lot of misconceptions that we're going to talk about very soon. Alison is a doctor specializing in internal medicine. Alison, may you talk a little bit more about what you do and what you specialize in? 

Speaker 3: Yeah. So internal medicine is not well known and it's very different depending on where you practice it. So here in Quebec I work in a small area center, so I do a lot of It's like the equivalent of being a pediatrician, but for adults, so it's like a general. I do a lot of cardiology and nephrology and all of your internal organs, and I have a particular interest in obstetrical medicine, which is taking care of pregnant women when they get sick. 

Speaker 2: God it's so specifically when they get sick. That's pretty interesting Yeah that's it. 

Speaker 3: So I don't take care of them. when their pregnancy's fine, i don't catch the baby. 

Speaker 1: That is not my job. 

Speaker 3: So they have their healthcare provider which can be a family doctor, an obstetrician or a midwife that follows their pregnancy, and if they get diabetes or hypertension during their pregnancy, then that's when I'll see them. Or if they have a preexisting condition like arthritis or inflammatory bowel disease and that needs a particular follow-up during the pregnancy, then that's when I come in Got it. 

Speaker 2: Super. I love the work that you guys are doing. So you are the two new hosts of a podcast called Growing Facts Podcast. How did that come about? How did the idea of this podcast through conversation, through a need in society? why did you decide to start this podcast? 

Speaker 3: So actually it was Shalaka's idea. So Shalaka has been doing her thesis And during the course of her studies she will talk to some of her friends about things that she finds interesting And a lot of the friends. 

Speaker 1: So Shalaka and I have known each other since Asia, yeah maybe we should clarify that we've known each other since, actually, in theory, since we were small children, we did like one year of elementary school together lost touch, reconnected when we were like 17 or 18. 

Speaker 1: Wow, So we do have a lot of friends in common. But I think it was this perception, this realization, how much knowledge that had become for me part of the course in studying my thesis was not exactly common knowledge, and I thought that that was a pity, because the people who should know it the most are the ones who don't know it and the people who will stress the most. And so in science, as scientists, we're always talking about knowledge translation, and sometimes the things that we do just end up in a scientific publication somewhere and they don't actually reach the people that they need to reach. And I'm very acutely aware of that because I'm also a clinical psychologist, so I do both research and clinical And I feel like my job is constantly having to translate scientific evidence to people. But also my clients are children and families. I don't actually see pregnant mothers. I'm not like Allison, who sees them all the time, and so I was like, okay, how do we do this? 

Speaker 1: And then I was talking to Allison about this on the phone. Well, she had already thought about doing something similar in terms of knowledge education, but for professionals in her field. That was the original intention and she was going to do maybe something similar to a podcast, and I had initially thought, oh, podcast would be a great idea, i'd love a co-host. I was really hesitant to tap Allison on the shoulder and be like, do you want to be my co-host? Because I knew she was really busy and she had to do this other thing. But then as time went on and I thought about it and I mulled it over and then she told me oh, finally, that other project just dropped. I'm not going to do that anymore, so I'm going to have a bit more time. So then I was like would you maybe want to come do this with me? 

Speaker 1: And at the same time, or almost right around the same time, we found out well, she found out that she was pregnant with twins. And then I thought, okay, well, this has got to happen, because part of the premise of the Growing Fast podcast is that I'm doing IVF. So I'm not even well, i don't know. I could be pregnant. I'm not sure, actually, if I'm pregnant, i could be, but when I started the podcast I definitely wasn't and I wanted to talk to someone about that. And Allison was ready, baked, with the twins available for us to co-host. So that's how it happened. 

Speaker 2: It's such an important discussion to have with everybody And I do agree with you that we need to have more of those discussions, and it's so nice to see people in science and medicine coming to share their experience and interviewing people. I've had the opportunity to scan through and listen to some of your podcast episodes And it's so important and interesting. I'm sure that somebody was expecting like we don't hear these are not the conversations that we hear. What are some things that you think? because I was having this discussion the other day and I actually put a post out on Instagram this week about prenatal classes and how they didn't really prepare me and help me understand And the time that I had with my OBGYN. He was fantastic, but there wasn't any time, so it was a lot of myself doing research. 

Speaker 2: Allison, there was something that you said in one of your podcast episodes where somebody said oh, you're carrying low, it's a boy. It was something like that, i think, which I was told I had three pregnancies And every single time my in-laws are Italian and every single person in that family wouldn't analyze my body and look and say this because of that, it's a boy. No, no, it's here, it's a girl. I mean, i would be assessed every pregnancy, like every couple of months, like they would try to figure it out. What are some myths out there, i guess, that are still going on, that you want to tackle on your podcast and say, hey, that's not true And let's start with this. Is it true? Can we figure out the gender? No, thank you. 

Speaker 3: Allison, No, absolutely not. And it's so funny because now with the harmony test, you can do a DNA test really early on in the pregnancy, like around 11 or 12 weeks, to know the sex of the baby. So sometimes you're walking around and you're 25 weeks along and you've known for like three months that you're having a girl. And there's this random lady that you meet at the pharmacy who's like oh for sure you have a boy and you're like what? No, No. 

Speaker 2: What So? there's no evidence about this, no, nothing at all. 

Speaker 3: Let's put it to rest. 

Speaker 2: Everybody that is listening to this podcast. Take this little clip, I don't know. Share it with your friends and family, and grandparents and Italian aunts and uncles, please. 

Speaker 3: And the other thing that we see a lot also that I did speak about is that so many people do assess my belly and be like, oh, it's so small, oh it's so big, and everybody has like this opinion about the size of my belly And it's like the only person that I really care about is if my OBGYN thing, that it's fine And I have regular ultrasounds. I have ultrasounds every month, but everybody's a NoBGYN. 

Speaker 2: When you're pregnant, everybody around you has that degree all of a sudden. They know. So, many appagans. It's hard Even before we go into the science. That is very difficult when you are pregnant. I had a stranger in an elevator touch my belly and I was like, oh Like, just like I was shocked, and I was like did you? And you don't know what to say sometimes. Did you really do that? Yeah right, Yeah, it's like what, but it's always the cute little lady, though, which made me hesitate. 

Speaker 1: It's always the adorable older lady that you feel really bad telling off. Yes, but I think someone's got to do it. I think someone has to bite the bullet and tell off the cute older lady. 

Speaker 3: So I actually haven't had that At least. Yeah, It happened once And the guy was a bit drunk, So I'm like hold on. Well, we were at a work function with my partner. And the guy had had had a bit of alcohol. So I'm, i'm, i'm, i'm. I feel like that's an outlier. Yeah, i know, but it's like, but it's. It hasn't happened since, so I don't know, maybe I have a resting bitch face or something that that makes people stay away. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, they know it's twins. You can't. 

Speaker 3: I don't know. And and there's the extension of that that my friend who was had twins last year was telling me is that once they're born, people will stop you on the streets, people will talk to you, people will stop you. And she has had little old ladies poking their fingers in her twins' mouths last year Oh gosh, like we're still in the pandemic. And the old lady was like oh, does he have any teeth? Oh my God, like. Oh my God, what? 

Speaker 2: Oh my gosh my heart's pounding My solution. 

Speaker 3: My solution to this is that I will be carrying a fly swatter along with my stroller. 

Speaker 2: That is my plan. Yeah, I want to see this. 

Speaker 3: Originally I was like going to bring you know, like those big wooden spoons, and I go oh, that's a bit mean. 

Speaker 2: Is it the electric fly? 

Speaker 3: swatter Fly swatter is a bit softer. But, oh, that would be great. 

Speaker 2: Like you don't understand the first time I'm putting electricity on now, But you know, and it's important that we talk about this with pregnancy, because this is what's happening, like we're in so uncomfortable already with the pregnancy and then with people around us. Ok, now I know people are listening and they're like Cindy, get into the science. And I'm like OK, let's do this, what is it that? so I'm going to ask this question pretty openly, but I don't know what you'd like to focus on. But basically, what is the important part in pregnancy that we're not talking about enough? Right, like we talk about the environment once the child is born, but the environment is also in utero. That's part of their environment. 

Speaker 2: I've heard so many things about like even drinking, like this is something that I still have like discussions with people. They're like oh, the research says you know, you can do this. The research says stress isn't like what, which I feel like stress is one of them that we should be talking about. But what is? what else is there in terms of topics that we can just touch on a little bit, and then people would learn more from your podcast. But you know, what is what's important during pregnancy? 

Speaker 1: OK, so I'm going to take I'm going to put on my psychologist hat at this point more than my researcher hat, because I'm thinking from the perspective of someone who just wants to have answers about how to live their life. I think we should talk about general lifestyle in terms of like things that you eat, maybe, things you're exercising, you're sleep, all that stuff, your stress levels Let's talk about the alcohol thing, because I think that that's part of lifestyle And and also the things that we do to make our lives better, like medication, maybe. That's a big one, i'm sure you would agree, alison. 

Speaker 3: We also have one about exercise, and the point that we're trying to make during the podcast is mainly that let's try and figure out what's really evidence based, like. What are the real things, opposed to what we've just been saying for the last generation? 

Speaker 1: Yeah, because because the other problem too is that the under researching of pregnant people, right, is a huge. I mean it's a problem in the sense that hasn't been done enough, but also in the sense that there are things that we can't like. The alcohol, maybe. Let's. Let's dive into it, let's talk about the alcohol. So the reason that alcohol is a complicated subject when it comes to pregnancies, that we cannot do randomized, controlled trials for alcohol exposure. We're not going to be dosing pregnant women with like, ok, you drink one glass of wine per week, you drink two glasses of wine per week, you do it in the first trimester, you do it in the second trimester. 

Speaker 1: The sort of control that you need to actually see what is a minimum safe amount of alcohol is just not possible in human women. They've done it in other animals, they've done it in monkeys, you know things, animals that are close to humans. So because that's the case, they say that the minimum. Because of that, they say that there's no minimum safe level of alcohol. But that being said, that's also. We have women who have drunk at different points in their pregnancy and there's been no fetal alcohol syndrome. We have women that barely drank and they still experience fetal alcohol syndrome, and so this is one of those situations where, ok, the research suggests that there's more preponderance of problems when you're exposed more in the first trimester, in the earlier part of pregnancy, but also this idea that if you have a glass of wine once in a while in your second and third trimester, there's good chances that nothing is going to happen, but we can't guarantee that it won't. Yeah, exactly. 

Speaker 1: Yeah and so it's complicated. 

Speaker 2: Yeah. 

Speaker 1: That's it, i mean. In the end. What is scary about pregnancy and about the science, i think, is that we are asking people to make choices on the basis of conclusions that are still being reached or that are uncertain. And I think people because we treat pregnancy as the sort of like You're an incubator and you have to make everything perfect and everything has to be great. Everything has to be perfect so that your child is okay, and I think this is a way that we seem to approach parenting also, that you have to be the perfect parent, otherwise you're gonna mess up your child. But but it's, it's complicated, and then we end up pigeonholing ourselves into these like very narrow, i have to do it this way and if I don't do this way, everything is gonna fall apart. We're actually there's a lot more uncertainty. 

Speaker 3: And it becomes kind of kind of cultish, like people Kind of develop that identity of being that type of parent. And if you don't have that mentality, then I will forever judge you and you're condemned to the seventh layer of hell. 

Speaker 2: But I think that's what becomes really hard right. 

Speaker 2: It's like I've seen with my work now with parents for a few years. I think there's always like there's so many topics drinking during pregnancy, screen time and young kids, sleep training, sugar intake, you know like there's a few topics where it's either You're for it or you're against it and nobody kind of says like there might be an in-between right and and I think that's what's hard, because those who say you can't Judge the ones that do and those who don't like it's all everybody's judging each other. So I think it's important that you know You do inform yourself and then you make your own decision. But your decision might not be my decision and I feel like parents are just kind of like take care of their own Things and worry about their stuff and you know. But when it comes to drinking, i just I wanted to bring it up there because I know people say like there's no research on it. I'm glad that you mentioned that, chalakka. It's because we can't study it. We can't do the right study about that, obviously, and and and get to the results. 

Speaker 1: And and we should mention that feel alcohol syndrome is like an absolutely real thing, like it's not like they made up. If this isn't one of those things I can and there are some things that seem absolutely made up, but this isn't one of those things that's absolutely made up The problem is just we don't know we know too much alcohol is bad. 

Speaker 3: We just don't know what is the same if there is a safe level, and what it is. 

Speaker 2: You touched on one of your episodes prenatal programming. Many have not heard of this term. We don't have to again get into all the details, but just give us a little bit of highlight of what you learned from that episode and what parents can learn more of if they listen to That episode on your podcast that is what my research is about. 

Speaker 1: So prenatal programming There's a bunch of. There's a couple of different names for it. Some call it the developmental origins of health and disease. It's this idea that essentially the Origins of your development, including your health and your functioning and all those things, don't start after you're born. They start while you're still being developed as a fetus and that essentially what is happening to you while you are being carried by By your parent, right. And so the idea is that the things that are happening in that moment Might change some of the outcomes and might change some of the development. 

Speaker 1: Because in the old days We used to think that, like no, you're born with your set of genes. Like your, your genes don't change all the. We do have Epidgenetic changes and things like that. But we used to think that, like no, all the changes are going to happen after you're born. But now we're realizing, oh, wait a minute. So if you're exposed to more prenatal stress while you're developing, then there's more chance that you will develop this kind of temperament. For instance, this is a really well substantiated one or more chance that you're going to develop depression or anxiety, or More chance that you're going to have XYZ health issue, and so that's the idea of program, and it's not just like negative outcomes too, it's also positive outcomes, right? It's just the idea that our development after we're born is influenced by what we are exposed to while we are still a fetus. 

Speaker 3: Before we thought that pregnancy was like this black box and that the fetus was cut off from the environment. But now we know that the environment really has an impact on the fetus, which, which is something that can be scary, but it's also something that's very positive. So we know that Your fetus will will recognize your voice, and that's so exciting, so you can interact with your baby while he's still in your belly. He'll react to light and to sound, and that's super exciting. But there's also the other dimension, where even stress and other things can have an impact, and, and so that's that's the new thing that we're kind of developing into. Social aca spoke a lot about the psychological impact, but there's also health issues. So, for example, if the mother is is malnourished, then there's a higher chance of obesity in the child, because The, the human body is so fantastic, so they'll have understood. Oh, there is this period of starvation, so I have to store more fat, and so there's a higher risk of obesity afterwards. 

Speaker 1: Yeah, i mean, let's not forget that this is an evolutionarily adaptive thing For the, for the fetus to try to quote unquote, predict what, what world is it going to be born in, and then try to Make it in such a way that it is the most suited for that world. And then the problems arise when the world isn't, the world outside is not the same as the world inside, and that's when we have more complications. 

Speaker 2: I'm putting myself in the shoes of someone listening, and I know that I because I've had a conversation with Dr Susan King from Miguel as well, a few years ago now, and I know that the listeners just kind of hesitated with that conversation because they felt we spoke about the, the ice storm here in Montreal and stress during, you know, pregnancy. And Those who have or or were experiencing stress during their pregnancy for you know, x, y's at reasons Felt like they were already setting up their child for failure and they were worried. And then there were moms also who said, like I just gave birth and I had a really difficult pregnancy with lots of stress, and you know I'm a single mom and and now like I'm worried that I've damaged you know these are the words that they were using What are we? I remember, with Dr King, she spoke about like you can do a lot in the environment. After you spoke a little bit about, while you spoke about, your research and attachment. 

Speaker 2: What are we seeing after? so let's say, somebody did experience a very difficult pregnancy, lots of stress, for whatever reasons. What can we do once the child is born? 

Speaker 3: But even before the, even before we get to that, the fact that you're experiencing stress during your pregnancy It's not a one-to-one relationship that your child will be maimed or completely disrupted, damaged, i think was the word Yeah, yeah, thank you Sorry. That's what they're using because they're afraid. Yeah, yeah, so it's not an obligatory thing, it won't definitely go to that. So the studies that have demonstrated that are populational studies, so there is a slightly increased risk. So, yes, so there are things you can do afterwards, right, shlaka? 

Speaker 1: Absolutely. I mean, this is where all the environment that happens after birth. So there's some really fascinating studies that show that actually when you're exposed to things like prenatal stress when you're a fetus might actually make you more responsive to positive intervention after you're born than someone who wasn't exposed to prenatal stress. So this is a hypothesis that's being tested, But I would say we're probably moving past the hypothesis stage and into refining this, And I think that's such a. 

Speaker 1: For me it's like oh wow, that's awesome, Because basically what we're saying is that it's not a unilateral negative outcome. It's that it just maybe programs you to be more sensitive to your environment. But if your environment is thriving, like if it's nurturing, if it's positive, if you've got a lot of stimulation, if you've got a lot of love, if you've got great attachment, So there's a study that shows, there's a few studies that show that secure attachment after exposure to prenatal stress will actually result in better development and outcomes afterwards, right, And so the fact that you as a parent can be such a powerful moderator of that outcome that you can change a lot of things. And I think sometimes people underestimate maybe they're so bogged down in the fog of parenting and how complicated it is and how many choices you have to make, And you're like, oh my god, I don't know if any choices are good Yeah. 

Speaker 1: It's overwhelming And I think that people they can't see the forest for the trees, And what the forest is is that if you are a parent who is who loves your kid, who's doing your best to provide an environment like yeah, there's going to be a million ways to parent, for sure, But if you're a parent who's doing your best to be responsive to your kid's needs and to provide an environment and to have them know that they are loved, that's probably the single most powerful thing that any parent can do. And never underestimate the impact of having that kind of attitude towards your kids on mitigating and possibly making your kids excel and do better than the kids who weren't exposed to prenatal stress. 

Speaker 2: I love that you said that part, because now I know some parents that worry about is this the right toy, the right chair, the right crib, the right whatever it is? And we worry I did it too as a first time parent Every little thing. Will this help or not? What am I doing? Am I damaging my child? Am I doing something wrong? But it's the bigger picture And it's really the nurturing part. And taking care of them and loving them is almost soothing. If something did happen to you before during the pregnancy Not soothing, but it heals or it helps. Take care, yeah, exactly, yeah, absolutely. 

Speaker 2: The word attachment we need to focus on that word a little bit because I think there's a lot of misunderstanding around what that is and that I hear it come up when somebody has a newborn. I've seen this on social media where a mom was judged and there were like pretty nasty comments because she was cooking and the baby was in a little chair beside her rather than being in a baby carrier on her. And somebody said you know, don't you care about your child's attachment, then don't you want a strong attachment? But I don't believe that having your child in a baby carrier is what the attachment is. But let's talk about what that is, because it's brought up very often in the first year of a child, where you know are you holding your baby enough And if you don't, you won't have a strong attachment. 

Speaker 2: Are you putting them in daycare? You're not gonna have a strong attachment if they cry when you leave, like. These are the things that I've heard, which is why I'm seeing those specific examples. And like sleep training If you sleep train, you're ruining the attachment with your child. What can we tackle in all of those things that I've heard? 

Speaker 1: Oh, Cindy where to begin. So I want to first highlight that I think some of the confusion also comes about from that term attachment, parenting. I don't know who came up with this term, but I just want to say that attachment is a description of relationship and not a state that you are hoping to attain. Attachment is a description of a relationship between two people and it is specific to the child and the caregiver in question. So that's the first myth that I wanted to spell. Like you're not trying to gain attachment. 

Speaker 1: No, everyone has attachment. People just have different types of attachment, first of all. Second of all, i would love to have the confidence of all these parents who know exactly what is gonna create secure attachment, because I wouldn't have written my thesis about it if it was so damn short. But everyone out there is like he's got so many ideas They know, and I'm like, wow, please let me in on the secret, because I would love to be so certain, and so the reality of the matter is that I think one of the things that people forget when it comes actually. 

Speaker 1: First let me dial back and let me describe what attachment is. Attachment is the relationship between the child and the caregiver, and this is true also when you're an adult. Like attachment doesn't go away after you're a child. You still have attachment to your caregiver when you're an adult, and it is essentially a mechanism for the child to regulate their stress using the parent. So when they're really newborns, when they're like a couple of months old, their stress comes from the fact that they're hungry. They're hungry and they cry and it's uncomfortable. Or they poop and it's uncomfortable and they cry. And what they learn over time is that when I'm uncomfortable and I cry, my parent will come and make that go, that this blob, this amorphous blob that is my parent, will come and we'll make that go away and I will feel better. And then, as they grow older and as their brains mature, then they'll start associating that person with feeling better and the sources of distress are gonna evolve. It's not just gonna be I'm hungry, it's also gonna be. Oh, i'm scared, i'm alone in a dark room and I know that, okay, if I cry, my parents gonna come and help me. 

Speaker 1: What is missed from this conversation is the fact that there's also things like biology and personality that play into attachment, so it's not just what the parent does. 

Speaker 1: You can have two different kids, same parent, and the same parent does the same thing with both kids, but one of the kids is really really sensitive and really needs a lot of reassurance and is really anxious and is really clinging with their parent, and the other kid will just be like, fine, no matter what, and the parent can do the exact same thing with both and they can have a really secure attachment with the one kid who's fine, because he was gonna be fine no matter what, and with the other kid who's really anxious. 

Speaker 1: You could still end up developing an anxious attachment and it won't be the fault of the parent, because there's no such thing as there's no fault in this situation right? It's just a description of that relationship, of the interaction between the way that a parent is responding to the child's needs and the way that the child is perceiving the needs, also because children start developing their own interpretations of their caregivers. So I think it's important for people to understand that sometimes you can do all the things that you try to do and all the things that you want, and you might not have what is a secure attachment. But also, is that necessarily the end of the world? Like, does that mean that your child is gonna be messed up forever? 

Speaker 2: No, Yeah, and I love that you're saying that because, see, i think from the again, i have the pleasure of speaking with so many parents, so I hear the language and I find like we're using that to label kids and label whether a parent has performed well so far. You know, like even I think back to after having my own first child. My grandmother would say things like stop holding her when she cries. Like if you don't respond to her every time, she'll become independent. My daughter was two weeks old And she would say and this is not uncommon, this is not uncommon. 

Speaker 2: I've heard this said many times from people you know their grandparents, their own parents that you need to let them become independent. So let them cry. But then on the other end, you know, when I'm speaking to parents, they say like There's people judging if you go to them too much. Then there's people judging if you don't attend to them too much. Or then there's guilt in the parent, like do I go pee or do I like attend to my crying baby because I don't want to damage their attachment, like. 

Speaker 2: So I think that we're just using this so much to label everything that's happening in the child's life, and then now also that what I've been hearing a lot about is like associating that and the relationship we had with their parent and saying, like well, this is why my relationship sucks, or this is why I have an anxious attachment. It's like my mother's fault or my father's fault. So I love that you brought that all in, because I know lots of parents are kind of having this aha moment of like okay, like it's bigger than we realize and we don't have all the answers to it. 

Speaker 1: No, no, I mean especially like if part of it is our genes, like what are you going to do about that? 

Speaker 3: Right, It is what it is. 

Speaker 1: And the other thing, too that I think is really important to highlight, that people I think unless you studied it maybe you don't realize that that's the case is the fact that the fundamental tension between that your child soothing themselves and you soothing your child, like that tension is, is a line that you have to walk constantly as your child, as your child, grows. 

Speaker 1: But the point of that tension is that when they are able to self suit, then they are capable of going out and exploring in the world. If they never learn to self suit, if they never learn to regulate themselves, then how are they going to go and learn and go in the playground and play with other kids and go to school and and like, have these challenges in life that are important for maturing? So the tension as a parent lies in trying to figure out when is the time to go in and help them suit and when is the time to let them do their thing. And so you as a parent are always a secure base. But the fact that they experience emotional distress is not a bad thing. It's necessary for human development. And so then and I know that's not helpful to parents because it's like well, okay, well, how do I know, and I'm I'm here to say I don't know. 

Speaker 2: But it's good. No, but that's research, and that's a good thing, because I feel, i find that there's a lot of people out there making money because they know they have the answer to the question that you don't. You don't have an answer to And and, but the reality is that research does not have that answer. So we need to say that, because I think parents listening right now are probably asking also like so what's the blueprint? like, give me the recipe of, like a secure attachment, but I'm assuming it doesn't exist yet. 

Speaker 3: I think what she's been saying is that there is no one size fits all, so when people are trying to sell you a book or saying, like we have the miracle cure, it's. It's not going to work for everybody And it highly suspicious if anyone tells you that they have the solution to everything. Yeah, it's like you know, in the 1800s, when people had like this bottle of this elixir, that like fixed everything, the one, the single bottle, of it. 

Speaker 3: Yes, it will not work with every kid, But and people are trying to be helpful and they're like well, I did this with my kid and that really helped And maybe it is helpful, but maybe it's not appropriate for your child And it also has to be age appropriate or developmentally appropriate. So what your grandmother was telling you with a two week old baby is definitely not appropriate, but would have been appropriate with a five year old. 

Speaker 2: So what happens if, like, you have a six month old or six week old or a two month old and you need a break and you're exhausted? I know that some parents, even parents in the United States that I've spoken with, it's like they're going off to daycare very early and they're wondering, like is that why we're seeing like a change in like behavior in kids? Like are we again as a society, like is this bad? And again, i know we might not have the answer, but I'm just I'm putting everything out there because I know these conversations are being had in society And some people say they have the answer. So you know, whether you leave your six week old with your parents, you know, to go watch a movie or to go out to the restaurant is that dam, like what is is? do we know what's damaging in terms of that early environment, or we're still? it's really all question marks. 

Speaker 1: Well, we don't have it. We don't have a specific answer, but I will say, if we're going to tie it back to things like parental lifestyle and parental health, i will say that, universally, an overly stressed, anxious, sleep deprived parent is generally not going to be a very effective parent. 

Speaker 2: And that's why we say to take care of the parent first. It's true, You do need that. Yeah, I wish more people would have told me that at the beginning. This was like seven years ago. But you know, you, you kind of fall into this rut of of if it doesn't matter what I need, it's only what my child needs, And it's, you know, if you, if you're stuck in that sort of cycle like you, have to get out of it and realize it's not selfish to want to take a walk and to breathe a little bit. So I'm happy you mentioned that it's. 

Speaker 1: Absolutely Yeah. And if we're bringing back to attachment, like let's not forget that again, a little bit of distress from your child is not going to scar them, Like that's not, it's not going to give them, you know, horrible nightmares or PTSD or something. If you go to the movies, leave your kid with your parents, for you know in a safe environment. It's, it's I assuming we're talking about a safe environment here. Yes, I'm not like putting your crib out on the street and being like bye. 

Speaker 2: I'm just so glad you're saying all this, because I do know lots of parents have guilt around this and wondering again, and it all comes back to how much conversation there is around attachment and that so many people have the answer to what damages and what doesn't. I'm using that word damage because that's what they're saying. What is it that parents or what do we have to? what's the take home message from this conversation around attachment? Like, what would you like parents to follow or to have on top of their mind when it comes to having these conversations with people around attachment? 

Speaker 1: I think the take home message here is that you know your child better than anyone else And that you know the kind of personality that they have and you know the kind of kid that they are And you can do the things that feel right for your kids specifically, while also making space for your own needs and your own mental health and stability. 

Speaker 3: And the fact that you have to put your baby down sometimes is okay And it's probably a super unsatisfactory takeaway, but that's, that's what we have, i think it's fine, yeah, that's all we have And I think right now, i think one of the hard things that we have in 2022 or 2023 is that society puts so much pressure on parents a lot on moms to be perfect And, oh my God, if you're going back to work too early, that's not good, but you have to feed your child, you have to put a roof over his head, so there's a limit to the choices that you can make, and it's you have to give yourself a break, and if you are just stressing out about everything, that's not good for you. 

Speaker 3: That might not be good for your baby either. So you want to make sure that you have an outlet, just to make sure that you have perspective. And if your baby is six weeks old and he's got coli and he's coliki and you are freaking out and you can't take it anymore, the best thing you can do is forget the attachment. The best thing you can do is to remove yourself from that situation. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. That's really good advice because there's again guilt that it's selfish and you're not taking care of your baby. But in that moment you need to take care of yourself. as long as they're with somebody else and they're fine, you can step away from that moment. 

Speaker 1: Yeah, and also I mean the fact that it tends to be women who are who either experience the guilt or have the guilt latent on them. 

Speaker 1: I think is really significant too, because like, wow, that mom guilt seems to start from pregnancy onwards, right Yeah, it seems relentless, and definitely not men don't seem to. 

Speaker 1: I'm sure they do experience it, but I think society doesn't seem to keep as much expectation that you will feel bad if you don't act like the perfect parent, quote unquote Also, and I think it's important to talk about cultural expectations, because let's not forget that attachment is a mechanism between environment and biology. 

Speaker 1: But in our culture we're expecting parents to be, say, primary caregivers, etc. But in another cultural context, if the people taking care of the child are not necessarily the biological parents, then it's not something that is fundamental between the. It's not like the shared DNA of the child and the parent is what bonds them in attachment. No, it's the recurring interactions, and that could be with a grandparent, it can be with a caregiver, with a nanny, exactly. And so we're very I think in terms of our cultural perspective, that like, okay, the parents are the ones who must take care of the baby and meet all the needs, etc. But there are other cultures where it's different And you don't see like all these children being super messed up from, like you know, attachment problems, whatever, like no, they have the same rates of anything else that we do here. 

Speaker 3: On the contrary. You know how, when we say it takes a village, Like if you have a good social circle, it's going to be so much easier on you and it's probably going to be better for your children too. 

Speaker 2: I was going to say when you were talking about culture like, i've spoken to some people that say, like in the like in the old days and in some cultures as well, like there was a lot of that community, a lot of that when somebody's expecting a child that they were taking care of And once the baby came out, like they had like a whole group of people around them cooking and helping them and supporting them. We're missing that. That's not really present anymore, And especially now with the pandemic, so many parents had children and were completely alone in their journey as new parents. How do we, you know, i've tried to explore this as well in terms of, like, creating a Zoom meeting for new parents or, you know, trying to have, like we call them weekly family meetings, but it's hard because we can't show up wherever we want, either as new parents, we might have a crying baby, we know, like people would go on and off of the Zoom call. How do we create? 

Speaker 2: you know, i've read some of Dr Bruce Perry's work as well where he talks about, like, community and connection and the importance of that. But I don't know if there's an answer to this. I'm just putting it out there, because how do we create that community again and have. From what you've read, is that community really important as well? 

Speaker 3: So I can't tell you anything about the research. But yeah, one of the things that we do know is that during the pandemic, women who were isolated found it really hard and had an increased rate of postpartum depression. So I think it's something that we're going to have to make a conscious choice about and try and be. I think maybe the government also has to make decisions. So here in Quebec we're pretty lucky with our maternity leave, which I know in the States it really sucks. 

Speaker 2: If you're lucky, you get six weeks. Yeah, i know, i had put out a survey and most moms got four weeks if they were lucky. 

Speaker 3: And that's terrible, Like your body has undergone so much change, Like how can you be on your feet and ready to go and it's going to got to be so hard to leave your baby on the side. I know my mother was a business owner So I know at six weeks she went back to work And I know that was really hard for her And people who don't have a lot of family close that can help that's also super hard. So I think maybe, hopefully in the next years some of the things will change. It's nice because now we have there's a few politicians who are women and who in their childbearing years and who bring the rabies over to parliament, And so hopefully there are some changes that will improve things. Now breastfeeding in public is a bit easier. There are some policies that are improving. Social media can help sometimes It can also be terrible. 

Speaker 3: But it can be the worst because people are so, judgy, so you really have to find your space for you Here. Where I live in Victoriaville, there's this really cute community organism which is La Maison de famille, so literally like the family house. I don't know how if there are a lot of where. 

Speaker 2: I attended. Yeah, there was a. It was in family. There was La Maison, la Maison Viment, I think it was, and it was the same thing, like once I had my kids. It's free, it's a community center and you were able to go there and just connect with other parents. 

Speaker 3: So they have classes, they have people who who are there to answer questions, to help out. There are people who are generally like very positive and empowering and just for people who don't have many connections and who need to be told that everything is normal, that can really help. So those community services really help out. 

Speaker 1: Also, i was just remembering our interview with Dr Herba, where she talked about the fact that all of the traditional milestones like, for instance, having a shower when someone's pregnant, like during COVID because they did that study about pre and postpartum during COVID and how so many of the rituals and the milestones that we hold around pregnancy, around birth, whatever that maybe have fallen by the wayside and maybe they seem a little silly. I tend to be more cynical and I tend to roll my eyes, a lot of traditions and I'm like, oh, you don't need that. I'm the kind of like, really cynical person who doesn't celebrate Valentine's Day with my husband because I'm like we don't need a day to show our love. 

Speaker 2: I say that leading up to it and then, on the day of, i expect something. You're like where's my chocolate? I want my flowers. 

Speaker 1: But I think that when it comes to things like pregnancy and birth and post birth, i think they serve a really important societal place because they mark milestones, they gather people together. You get to see the person, you get to see the baby, you get to check in. I think you literally it's an opportunity for you to check in with that person when before you might have just been texting them or maybe having a phone call with them. Now you see them face to face and you're like, oh, you're struggling, let me help you. You know, like that idea and Allison, we talk about this so much all the time this idea that it's not just sometimes like, okay, maybe you can't breastfeed a person's child for them, but what you can do is you can liberate them in order to give them the time and space to do the things that they need to do, so you can cook some meals for them, you can bring over stuff, you can watch their other kids if they have other kids like the circle of support, the circle of care surrounding the person. I think that one of the ways that we can engender more of this well-being in parents is to ask yourself how do I fit into other people's circles, you know, because I think we are very directed inward often And I think the person who is a new parent is not the person who should be sitting and trying to figure out oh my God, how do I build community? 

Speaker 1: Like, no, you're just trying to keep this young thing alive. Do you have time to sit and like call organisms and whatever? No, you don't. You're just trying to not like drop your baby on the kitchen floor. So not that I'm projecting ahead or anything, but 100% I'm going to be afraid of dropping my baby once I have one. But so I think that, like, if we as like as friends, as partners, as as family, as like heck, maybe you went to a yoga class with someone and you connected with that person And now they're pregnant and you're like, how could I help them? You can always look up, you know yoga classes that they could do after they've had the baby Like there's so many things that can be done where we can structure and support and help the people who are in the center of it all, in the eye of the storm, and that could be a way of making the communities more easily accessible to them. 

Speaker 3: You know one of the things also is that I think we're we're not so much used to babies anymore. Like we, what do you mean? Well, we, we don't have those big families So like, oh, i see, which, yes, it's true. So so, yeah, i've, I have friends that have kids, but, like I, before living my own pregnancy, i wasn't really sure how to help them, how to be a support, and we're just not really used to it, and we're. 

Speaker 3: Also society is kind of trying to normalize pregnancy in a way that, like, pregnancy is a normal part of life and you should just go through it and not ask for any accommodations, or basically just suck it up and go and do your work and do everything and go be a super mom and yeah, and your productivity should not be decreased and you should do everything, and so it's kind of hard to know when to step in or what to do to help. So for so, my pregnancy is going super well, so I don't, i don't need help guys, it's fine. But for for afterwards, like I'm going to have twins, i will need help for sure. So my plan to fully communicate this is that I am going out and I am buying a whiteboard and I will be writing the tasks of the day, things to do, so so that'll help my partner to know what he has to do. And if we have visitors that day, well, they can go, look and pick what they want to do. Check one off. That's smart We were. 

Speaker 3: We were actually thinking of making us a point system. So be like if you take out the trash, that's two points, If you watch the dishes, that's five points, and when you make it to 10, then you get to hold the baby. Okay. 

Speaker 1: Putting a new meaning to word incentivizing Yes, I'll let you know in a couple of months. 

Speaker 2: Let me know how it goes. I absolutely enjoyed this conversation with you guys. Thank you for the work that you were doing and for the podcast. I think we need to follow up because I had a lot more questions, but we're we're we're approaching an hour now. Alison, good luck with with with the delivery and with the. You know I want to touch base with you and see how it's going, but good luck with everything at the beginning. And, and Shalaka, good luck with you too. I hope everything goes well and that you know it's nice to. I'm so excited to continue listening to your journeys and on your podcast and learning more about, like, what's going on in your lives and how you have such different processes And I we all need to hear that we need to. You know, just have these conversations and you guys are having it. So thank you. 

Speaker 1: Thanks for having us. It was real pleasure. Thank you for having us. 

Speaker 2: To everyone listening. Please take a moment to review the podcast and rate it, and I will see you on Instagram at curious underscore neuron. Have a beautiful and wonderful week and please remember parents that you matter. See you next week, yeah.