Loneliness in early parenthood: What can we learn from research?

There was one in particular that really made me laugh . It was from Lisa KR.123 from the United States , and she says I absolutely love Kieris Nauron . Honestly , it feels like Cindy and I are just sitting down with coffee .

That's how she talks , both professional , backed up with science and research , and personal and relatable , with examples from her own experience as a mom .

I really like the example of you saying that it's like we're having a coffee because , lisa , I am sitting here in my basement with a coffee at hand , and that's exactly how I feel , or the mood I guess , that I try to create when I'm recording the podcast , or at least the intros or a solo episode on my own . So I really appreciate that .

To Jen23S as well , I'd like to thank you . She wrote . I also want to thank Jen23S and Bert1365 . Anna as well . Anna160295 . You guys have really interesting names on your Apple Podcasts . But to all of you , thank you . Bert wrote wish this information would have been available in this format when my children were small 35 years ago .

Thank you , cindy , for all the work that you do . Anna wrote a must listen podcast for parents of young kids and teens .

You know , if you've been listening to this podcast since the beginning this is our sixth season you know that I've made lots of shifts towards focusing more on parents , their well-being and helping them prioritize their emotional health , and I'm going to continue in that direction .

Obviously , I still touch on child development in terms of emotional development and how we can support our child's environment in a very positive way .

But what I've learned as my own children are growing up and as I continued recording podcast episodes and speaking with you guys in the community , was that if we are not well and if we are not focusing on ourselves and nurturing ourselves , then it makes it much harder to take care of our kids .

So if you are looking for a podcast and this is the first time you listen to the Kirsten on podcast welcome . This is the space that will help you prioritize your emotional well-being , your psychological well-being .

I have a PhD in neuroscience , I specialize in mental health and emotions and I am here to help you with that by bringing experts from the field scientists and clinicians , and sometimes an everyday parent like you and I . So let's move on to today's episode .

I really wanted to cover this topic because even before the pandemic , when I would speak to some parents and moms in my community , there was often this discussion around the feelings of isolation or the loneliness that happened after giving birth to your child and there was guilt around that as well , because here you are , at home with your brand new child and

you're grateful , but at the same time you're so sad sometimes and so lonely . And obviously , with what I cover here with emotional health and mental health , these feelings of isolation and these feelings of guilt it doesn't feel good . And then you start thinking am I the only one going through this ?

And what I've learned by continuing curious around the podcast and the blog and our Instagram at curious underscore neuron , our Instagram account is that so many people think that they're the only ones going through something when in the end , there are so many more going through the same thing .

If we just talk about it , sometimes we can connect with somebody who might be experiencing the same thing or might have experienced it before , and that's why I wanted to make sure that we spoke about isolation and loneliness with new parents . I brought on two really big experts in the field and these people to me .

I just want to let you know that when I write to these people after reading a couple of their articles and realizing , wow , I need to have a conversation with these people or this researcher because their research matters so much . Parents need to hear this . Sometimes I get nervous .

And both of these researchers are just having such an impact on the field and are both so dedicated to their work and to sharing the information that they're learning through their research , so I was really excited to bring both of them on to the podcast .

But , as always , before I begin , I do want to thank the Ten and Bum Open Science Institute for supporting the curious neuron podcast , along with the McConnell Foundation . Both of these organizations are the reason why this podcast is going .

It's not to pay me , it's to help pay the team that puts this together , and without the team I cannot continue the podcast . And guess what ? What matters the most these grants and these types of support come from the fact that you take the time to review the podcast , to subscribe to it , to leave a rating and to share it with your friends .

So please make sure this week , if you'd like to give me a little something , a little gift , try to share the podcast in a community or at school a newsletter , a work newsletter , somewhere where people could find out that this exists and that they can learn more about themselves and understand how their emotional brain functions and their child .

So that would be a really big gift for me . Thank you . And , as always , we have three affiliates and supports of the curious neuron podcast . So if you're looking for an app you know that your child can play and you don't want to have any guilt around the speed or the type of app that it is , poc Poc is the one that I recommend .

I have a link for you below in the show notes . You can get 50% off your first year . And also I'm an affiliate and a partner with better help , because I do think it's important for parents to have easy access to therapy , and that's exactly what it offers you .

And Holstie is a new partner that I have now and I wanted to share this company with you and give you discounts as well . You can click the link in the show notes and look at all their products . If you are looking for reflection prompts or a membership that will help support you , holstie truly is the way to go .

They are backed by research and I've looked through their content and their membership and it's something that I think is really important for parents to know about . All right , let's not delay this episode anymore . Today , we are talking with Dr Tracy Vosar and Dr Kelly Elliott .

So Dr Tracy Vosar is a nationally recognized expert in perinatal through early childhood mental health . She works across the country in the US on infant mental health initiatives and is truly making the world a better place to raise the next generation of babies .

Dr Vosar is an expert in attachment theory , parenting , self-efficacy , as well as numerous evidence-based interventions to support children and parental mental health . She joined the developing brain Institute at Children's National Hospital in August 2022 as clinical director of perinatal behavioral health .

She oversees the clinical program , which includes perinatal mental health screening , behavioral evaluations , care coordination , and the list goes on . I hope you can tell by her bio that she is an extremely important person and making a huge difference for new parents .

Dr Kelly Elliott holds the position of assistant research professor at the University of Denver , where she serves as the creator and lead of the Baby Steps Lab . Baby Steps stands for Supporting Teachers , educators , parents and Service Providers .

Her educational background includes a doctorate in child development and two masters not one two master's degrees in clinical mental health counseling and psychology . She has made it her mission to enhance communication between adults and children by recognizing that play is the language of children .

She is dedicated to sharing evidence-based child development and parenting strategies with the public , while also striving to establish sustainable , play-based social , emotional learning environments where children can truly flourish and thrive . I told you they were a big deal .

They are both amazing women and , honestly , I'm curious to know if , by the end of this conversation , if you will get the feeling that I got I had never spoken with them . I had spoken with Kelly once , but at the end of the conversation I didn't want to end it and I just wanted to go grab a coffee and hang out with them .

That's the feeling that I got from both of them and trying to end the conversation was really hard . So let's move on to this very important conversation around mental health , feelings of isolation and new parents . I hope you enjoy my conversation with Tracy and Kelly . Welcome back everyone . I'm joined here with Kelly and Tracy .

Welcome to the Both of you to the Cures Neuron podcast .

I don't really hear about this from dads , and we'll get into that . But thank you both for joining me and I guess I've introduced you at the beginning . But I'd love for you to talk about the work that you do and the research that you do , so that people will know exactly where you're coming from .

I was Tracy's postdoctoral fellow there and now I'm faculty over at DU and yeah , and I still work with Tracy very closely on many projects and I'm so excited and grateful for this collaboration with her .

Now I'm a clinical psychologist by background in training and I span the worlds of perinatal , infant and early childhood mental health with a real interest in increasing access to affordable and really preferred treatment approaches and social support groups for women , for birthing partners and for their young infants .

And the best work I get to do is when I get moms and babies together in the room to reduce some of that isolation that you're talking about . And I'm joining you now from Washington DC and was previously in Denver where I got to meet Kelly .

We have 12 months of maternity leave , so it's a very significant amount of time and I know that for us , when I would speak to my friends after a couple of months , they'd say , okay , I'm ready to go back now , or I need to be with people , I need to put on clothing , I need to Like .

There was a feeling of needing to get back into everyday life , but more than that , they just felt alone , even if we still had each other to call . There was that really intense feeling of loneliness and I'm wondering if both of you have seen this in your practices and in research as well .

I've been in perinatal mental health for almost 25 years and then infant mental health a little less than that , but not by much and one of the common threads across the work is families feeling alone , individuals feeling alone , mothers and partners to some extent and it shows up a little differently for partners so we could talk some about that but really feeling

alone as caregivers , feelings of loss around prior relationships and change in directions that they weren't looking for , and it was interesting . Kelly and I have been looking at what our moms who join us for groups say and a consistent theme that they share with us following group almost so consistent as to be universal is I realized I wasn't alone .

I realized I wasn't alone and alone , and that terrible feeling of isolation and being alone in your parenting is such a sad experience that I think is especially true in the US . I'm curious about Canada . Certainly hear it from other cultures as well .

I remember really vividly working with a group of moms in New Orleans and going around the room and asking them each to say a little bit about what part of town they were from and they had all been sharing how alone they felt . They had no support , no friends with infants and two of the moms who had been saying how alone they were .

They lived around the corner from each other , literally less than a block walk from one another . So just the power that it can have when we break down some of these feelings of being alone .

So it was through social media where I would just put this empty box and say , am I the only one who ? And blank , and people would put things like that feels sad very often , or that feels anxious not taking my baby out , or whatever it was .

But that became the one thing that I did , that parents reached out and said thank you , because I saw somebody else's . Am I the only one ? And I realized you know , because then people vote .

So if you say , am I the only one who feels , you know , lost or lonely and 85% of people vote , all of a sudden , just seeing this , you feel you realize you're not the only one feeling that way . So is it a physical thing or is it a ? Is that an emotional connection thing ? What do you think it might be ?

Americans and you know , adults and so , and when they looked at it even further , they saw that rates were even higher for young adults . And then you know , when you think about new parents kind of falling often in that category , you kind of wonder where we're at .

And I think in the UK they were saying something near levels of half , about 50% of new parents also felt loneliness . And you know , then you kind of get to this idea of like , well , like , what is loneliness ?

Right , it's the subjective feeling , right , of feeling that you're not connected to meaningful relationships , right , or something , something along those lines , right .

And one of the things that I was , you know , kind of looking and digging into recently was about metrescence and this idea of like , this new identity as you become a mom , right , you go through a lot . So , like , when you talk about like , is it social , is it emotional , is it biological , it's all of it .

You literally are stepping into a new role and you kind of touched on something that Dr Sacks from Columbia talks on and she talks a lot about metrescence and does a lot of really good work kind of getting the the news out there , because it sounds like adolescents on purpose , right . This idea of like . Well , loneliness isn't necessarily postpartum depression .

We'll get to like the health disorders in a little bit , but it's kind of it's . You know , friend , right , it's , it's early sign , maybe even like a screener or risk factor for it . It's very related to it . Sometimes it is coexisting with depression , sometimes it's not .

But this idea of like just normalizing that you're going through a huge change , just like you were when you were an adolescent , right , and that's what Dr Sacks talks about in her TED talk and I highly encourage everyone that's listening to this to watch that afterwards , because it's really changes the way that you kind of think about it and normalizes it .

And I feel like when we normalize we step out of the shadows of shame and that's when we're able to come together right and say , oh , you're my neighbor down the block and you feel similarly to me , like I wish I knew that , but like I don't want you to think I'm a bad mom for feeling like this , like I'm supposed to be happy , right , yeah , so I think

there's a little bit of everything going on .

But early postpartum , many cultures actually spend a significant amount of time at home following labor and delivery and moms are surrounded by family members a little different in each culture , but the idea is that they're home and in some ways maybe more isolated by being at home than solely at home then , perhaps in the US or Canada .

But in other ways they're actually really surrounded by people who they're the closest to . So they have a lot of their needs being met and they are surrounded by loved ones , for better or for worse , who are there to support them in the early postpartum .

So I'm very curious whether that feeling of isolation and I haven't looked this up , but I will be interested in doing so but the cross cultures in the same way , because there is such a difference in some other cultures , especially in Latin America and in Asia , where moms have a very different postpartum experience than they do in our more westernized societies .

There's literally a room made for that , and it just really marked me how it was embraced in such a beautiful way after you have a child , and so I completely understand what you're saying in terms of the differences in culture . Even here , even though I'm in Canada , I am Canadian , my husband comes from Italian descendants .

So after giving birth , there's this whole , there's these rituals of like here's some broth and we , you know , every after every child I had , there was just like this abundance of food coming into my house . It was really something interesting to experience . So , you know , and that was a cultural thing , it wasn't like one family that cares more over the other .

They're just used to doing that . So I can get the cultural piece . That felt really good to see that you're being taken care of .

You know , I think one thing that I experienced that I've heard from moms as well is , maybe , once you become a parent , there's this you're not afraid , but you get judged , sometimes maybe from your peers , and maybe that isolation also is a part of not sharing anymore . I think back to myself as well .

I had a lot of anxiety after my first child and I lived downtown here in Montreal versus my friends had already all moved to the suburbs but I was still doing my postdoc and I lived downtown and I had this fear of going out with my child and I didn't share that with anybody .

I didn't share that until years later and a lot of my friends would say things like why didn't you just tell me ? And I was embarrassed . I wonder if there's a piece of that as well , where you know we're afraid we're not doing it properly or we're making certain decisions that feel right to us but might not be .

You know what our friends are doing , our family members . I wonder if that's a piece of it just not sharing that anymore .

Right , because we start our brains rewire for more anxiety and worry , as you well know , both of you during pregnancy and into the postpartum , and I think maybe a piece of the anxiety and worry that we don't talk about as much is the worries around what other people will think .

Yeah , so we think about that more , maybe in anxiety or worry not associated with pregnancy in the postpartum , and I'm not sure why we don't include that more . I think maybe because a lot of the anxiety might be directed at how baby's doing or how my pregnancy is doing .

But there's also this piece of I'm really anxious and worried that other people don't think I'm doing this well , or , if I share what I'm experiencing , that other people will judge me or some some worries , especially in some of our under resourced and our minoritized populations of if I share how I'm actually doing and feeling , yes , is there something really negative

that could happen for me or my baby , and so I think a lot of the anxieties and worries that people don't share , sadly , really do reinforce this feeling of isolation and loneliness and make it harder for people to connect in genuine ways . Right .

And these are moms that I think were diagnosed with clinical depression and that was the number one thing , this fear of being perceived as a bad mom , right .

They can't really define what it is that they're trying to move towards , but they know they're not where they want to be and so much of it is actually Perceptions of what folks from the outside will be thinking of them , which actually , as I'm saying that , ties me to what Kelly was saying earlier about the , the similarities across mattressence and adolescence .

Yeah , as of course that idea of the you know , the audience , the invisible audience is so pronounced in adolescence and then also Perhaps during this time period as well , mm-hmm . Tracy .

Because I've heard this from parents as well , where I'm not a Therapist and I people just know that I'm involved very heavily here in the community , especially with parents .

So sometimes people come up to me and tell me things that they don't want to tell somebody else and what I've heard are some parents who say you know , my depression or my feelings are worse than I thought . I have some very dark thoughts .

I'm afraid to share that with a social worker , I'm afraid to say this to my doctor Because I don't want them to take my child . I don't want anything bad to happen . I'm a good parent .

I just I'm stuck in this , whether it's very severe anxiety and and you know , it just makes me think of they're not alone and there's a group of people , I'm sure whether it's Canada or the United States .

But what can we do as a society if we know that these are the people that need the most help and will probably not reach out Like how do we get to these moms ?

Most part of them and there have been some really great resources that have been coming out recently . I'll be very glad to send those your way so that folks could follow up . Yes , but I think that's exactly them . The message and the need that I so clearly see is that folks need to hear that it's common to have intrusive thoughts .

That that thoughts are not things is something we say , and there be a lot . That just because you have a thought , that doesn't mean that you're gonna act on that thought Doesn't mean that you really even believe that thought . We all have thoughts that are fleeting , and some of them are very positive and lovely , and some of them are very dark and scary .

They can wonder where they came from . So really letting folks know that just because you're having dark , intrusive thoughts , that does not necessarily mean that anything's wrong .

Right , and it would be really great for you to talk with someone , because if something is To the point where it's causing you real trouble in your life , then there are people who can help you like myself , like Kelly and others who can really normalize for you , who can help you in treatment and who can really assist you in feeling better about your your mental

, your cognitive life , because it is so impactful what we're telling ourselves all the time is so impactful In the way that we act , in the way that we feel , and it's just so important for folks to know that they can reach out for help . I think it's wonderful people are approaching you and it suggests that there's so much trust in you .

Yeah , and I do always recommend to people that they look for someone that they really feel like they can trust to receive that , that support , and we can put some resources Again out to folks where they could maybe start that journey of looking for someone that has the skills that they need To be able to have an informed conversation with them about this right .

A lot of times you know when people are going in for their prenatal or postnatal checkups . They're well visits , even with the baby you fill out , you know the depression screener . But that doesn't always hit home for people's experiences right , and often they also don't maybe feel like they have a true understanding what this question is .

Even asking it doesn't Right to them , right , or they feel like , oh gosh , again that , that shame , that perception . I don't want them to think I'm a bad mom , I'm gonna put a different score on here and they're not maybe as honest Because they don't feel as safe . You know sharing .

So , really , one of the things that we're really passionate about is just really educating Healthcare providers and people that interact with this population as much as possible that there's more than just perinatal depression , postpartum depression . There's anxiety , ocd , ptsd , psychosis , substance use , the .

There's a lot of different things that we should all be considering and keeping in mind as people are telling us what's going on like Open-ended , how are you doing ? It's hard what you're doing right now , transitioning into this motherhood role , right ? What has it been like for you ?

Both Kelly and I , by the way , feel really strongly about asking people the right questions in a wording that helps people understand what we're asking of them .

Instead , I think , asking people that Kelly was mentioning very open-ended , late , what things have been like for them and , and , to your question , knowing that loneliness is a part of the human condition .

We all feel lonely from time to time , and when we worry about Mental health is when something like loneliness or intrusive or dark thoughts are really starting to interfere with functioning .

So that's the real deciding factor and what I'm looking for as a mental health professional is Okay , these symptoms that you're experiencing , whether it's loneliness or anything else , are they getting in the way of your relationships ? Are they getting in the way of your work , if you're back to work ? Are they getting in the way of your caring for your baby ?

How is this impacting you in the , the areas of your life that are the most important to you ? And that's where we really do the , the digging , mm-hmm .

But I've also heard moms who had the who , looked up anxiety online , thinking like , do I have this ? And once they were going through the symptoms , so like I don't think it's that bad , so they just ignored it and they it got much worse after . Do you think ? So there's that that comes to mind as well as the scales being brought up .

I've heard of dad say , you know , they were sitting in the room and the mom was given the scale and they were just sitting there saying , well , actually I need all that criteria , but didn't speak up . So when it comes to these scales and the way that we're assessing , you know , mental health , postpartum what needs to change ?

What needs to change because we how do we improve this to support both the mom and the dad ?

We really were kind of knocking down the doors of labor and delivery Rooms asking to screen people with the EPD s , which is the gold standard screening tool . If you've been pregnant or or Postpartum , you've probably been screened with the 10 item measure , the Edinburgh post-natal depression scale . Much to your point , cindy , it's only a depression scale .

There are two questions on there that arguably can assess anxiety , but they're not great and it's wonderful that it was created by our UK colleagues back in the day , but some of the language is very UK specific and some of it is kind of outdated in wording .

So one of the things that we're doing and this is the fantastic work of some of our colleagues they are translating it in a way to American English and also going through and really testing the acceptability of the measure .

Another thing that you brought up Was partners , and actually my master's thesis way back in the early 2000s super dating myself today Was on how partners perceive women's symptoms when they're in the room and hearing . And then a wonderful friend and colleague actually took that measure that I developed for my masters and said , well , gosh , we should also he's .

He's a dad himself now . He said we should ask the dad's this and the parenting partners , right . So he's done some really great work that we've benefited from . That's Dr Sheehan Fisher at Northwestern around the work that he's been doing with dad's of saying and how are you feeling ? Right , and actually many dads we work with .

Thankfully , we've gotten more Awareness of partner mental health and the difficulties for dads around the perinatal period and changes in their hormones and changes in their Susceptibility to depression , anxiety and other concerns .

So we know to screen dads more now and could really do a better job of screening Universally and getting the word out about father's mental health .

But also there are other conditions that we really need to be screening for , as Kelly mentioned , and it's always this back and forth of do we ask everyone every screening question under the Sun or that's gonna take Three hours . How do we , in a timely and efficient manner , ask screening questions that apply the most ?

So whenever people see you know one in five or you know are dealing with perinatal mental health , you know issues or you know concerns , they're underestimated because if you think about who how many people actually fill out the screener and then who are also being you know truthful , that this is something that they are experiencing , we're not getting an accurate

estimator there .

What we do know is that dads have pretty comparable rates to moms and parenting partners have pretty comparable rates to moms and it's it's actually kind of interesting , you know when , when you start looking at the estimates , because I was really struck by it and I didn't , I didn't expect to see that , and a lot of dads will say , well , I'm not allowed to

feel anything right , like I'm not allowed to . Yes , I'm not allowed to be scared or I'm not allowed to be anxious . I have to keep myself together for For mom right now , I got to keep myself together for baby . She's really struggling right now and we can't both be struggling . I can't allow myself , right .

So they , they almost hold on to this stress in a in a much different way Without resolving it right . And then , if you think about stigma and shame for moms , it's there for dads too , like with this idea of , you know , masculinity and this idea of not being able to share your emotions or express how you feel .

So it's , it's a screening is a huge , I don't want to say issue in our field .

It's a huge opportunity for advancement and development and we're there's a lot of really great people that are working to make it better and we are , we're we're chugging along as much as we can To screen better and to identify what's going on into , you know , more nurses is are getting , you know , trained in it and they're having conversations even after traumatic ,

you know , birth experiences , like hey , like , let's check in . You know , we're seeing more of that and we're hearing more of that on the Ground . So I do think we're moving in a good direction right I was going to bring up before .

So if she wouldn't had done that , it wouldn't have been screened and she wouldn't have been , you know , diagnosed with that . But was what was interesting is , a couple months down the line , her partner reached out to her and said I can't do this anymore . I'm having the same experience you are .

So it was another similar experience in terms of the dad coming out and saying I'm also feeling this way , everything that you Are going through the nightmares , I'm having the same thing , but having done his best to kind of be there to support her because she is the one that had gone through the traumatic birth . So I completely understand what you're saying .

You know , part of the work that I do with curious neuron and Curious neuron actually at the beginning was all about me sharing the science further about the child , because I just thought I wasn't , I wasn't a parent yet and I thought , you know , I'll like .

All I need is to share that science with parents and they'll understand their child more and we can parent better . But then I had my own kids and then I realized that if I didn't take care of myself and if I didn't understand myself , then all this wasn't working anyways .

I needed to really focus on me and the more I did that , the more I spoke to parents about that . That's when things grew for me and that's where parents were saying finally somebody who sees us and it's allowed me to see how reactive our health care system is , especially around mental health .

The screening is definitely important , but I'm wondering when it comes to postpartum that period or even prenatal but what is there that we can do as a society or a system to be a little bit more proactive or be a little bit more preventative as a health Care system ?

Much of what you're experiencing although your individual experiences , of course , are your own We'll have their own idiosyncrasies . They're similar to what others have experienced and there are people who are here myself , kelly , others , yourself included who will support and will Treat and will listen and who really understand .

And I think broadening out that understanding of what Well-being not just mental health but really well-being is during pregnancy , in the postpartum , yeah , is so essential and really where we need to move to .

Kelly and I were just writing a grant where we were Initially focusing a lot on these interventions that we know very well , that we love and we know they work really well For the small number of people who can possibly afford and access and get to us to receive these Treatments .

But that truly what what we needed to do was to build out more of our prevention and early intervention Work , and that's things like what brought us together today to getting moms and babies and Parenting partners and other caregivers together to say you're not alone , here's your village .

Kelly had a wonderful idea of bringing together not just people of the same Time period in life but also the providers and the Network broadly defined the village for parents of young children all together in the same place for a child development conference with kids in caregivers present and that's a novel concept .

And but that was Kelly's baby and it was a beautiful all-day long event . It was just fantastic . But we need to do more of that , much more of that .

There , you know , sometimes I do know a very small organizations here in Montreal that will offer these things , but most people don't know about it and some of them cost a lot of money . So you're you're really isolating who's able to access this ?

So I do believe and that's why , for me , I've always made you know what we do here at curious neuron free for for parents , the website and the podcast have been my way to Bring the research you know straight to the parents so that it's accessible for them , because I don't think that this kind of knowledge Should be just for one parent who could afford it .

I think , really , the ones who need it most probably can't afford these types of things .

Because I missed it , you know , and one of the things is we have like a marketing deficit , I think , in the field of psychology and infant mental health . Like we have so many people that are doing amazing things and we all don't really know about it .

Like I'm in the field , you know X amount of years and I'm just hearing about different programs and I'm thinking about moms that are , you know , coming into the field and or , you know , coming into motherhood and wondering where to get supports and you know where's , like the centralized place that we know we can go , and a lot of parents are going to social

media or listening to podcasts . So that's one of the things that I love about Curious Neuron is that you're meeting families where they're at , and that's the key to all of this , I think , is thinking about how we're sharing information , kind of even if it's tidbits of , you know , evidence-based knowledge , that we know that work from interventions .

If we could get that information out to as many people as possible . That's something that's , you know , really I really kind of my passion is really thinking about how do we take really intensive , long-term interventions . Tracy and I talk about this all the time .

You know there's long wait lists for these services and we know it works and we don't want to gatekeep this information . We want to get it out to as many people as possible and as accessible as possible , so in their living rooms , if that's where they're at right .

And also affordability it's expensive becoming a parent , so we really want to be careful around what we're charging and , you know , really kind of taking down any kind of barriers .

So I'm glad you know , and you're right about the book when I my sister-in-law's once pregnant and one gave birth , and for me what was important is giving them books about like healing from your past and understanding , you know , if you had a narcissistic parent and how do you regulate your emotions .

You know , for me that's what I gave them and they were like there's nothing here about parenting . I'm like , no , no , this is what you need to read , at least to get a better understanding of how you regulate and how you feel and dealing with whatever you have to deal with . I think that's what we have to start doing a lot more as new parents .

But I'm thinking and unfortunately we're gonna have to end the conversation soon but given everything that we just said and the work that you have both done , what are you hoping to see in terms of changes , let's say between now and I'd like to say five , but things don't change in five years .

I remember having I had a podcast interview with Dr Bruce Perry and he was talking about his work and it's been decades , and I asked him like are you happy with the changes you've seen ? He's like well , we're not there yet , but we're getting there and it takes a lot of time . Tracy , I know you mentioned it's been 25 years as well .

Have you seen changes that you're happy with , or what are you hoping to see in the next 10 years ?

I think a tiny little sliver of a silver lining from the pandemic was that so many mental health professionals needed to pivot on a dime to providing care over telehealth . And we're a tough group to get to change . We're a tough group to get to access technology and this idea that we could offer services over a virtual platform was so .

There was so much pushback against it A very few wonderful pioneers who kind of paved the way pre-COVID and thankfully we could pick up the ball and run with it from there .

But those folks who are now offering services over Zoom , over virtual platforms , the folks we're gonna now be able to access the work we're gonna be able to do in ways that I think are gonna be inventive and new and affordable and far more down to earth than what maybe the prior generation or two of psychologists , psychotherapists , mental health professionals thought

of . There's some real innovation coming our way and I can't wait to see it . I'm really excited for what the next 10 , 20 years brings . Yeah , we're getting really good at translating science for broad audiences .

I think that's a good thing to be anxious right and especially perinatal anxiety , and it kind of takes me back a little bit of a wow . That's great that we have open conversations about this now that we have awareness around it .

And I see it on social media too , where we talk about these topics , that when Tracy was saying , with kind of breaking down the wall of assessing just for depression , we're kind of starting to have more open conversations , and I see that even just within my time in the field and one of the other things that I think is a really big takeaway .

So you have this understanding of prevalence or this idea that you could experience or this might affect you during your time . But the other piece that I think is really really important for people to know is that this is treatable and that we have really really good treatments for this and the treatments are backed by science .

They work and when we're able to intervene sooner than later , right , we're able to do a really great job with parents and they're bonding with their kiddos and we also see positive impacts on kids because the ground level , the basement of child development is parent mental health . It is it's everything .

And it's so real that Tracy and I have really expanded it to think about not only taking care of parents but taking care of teachers and taking care of the people that support parents and the people that support teachers and the systems in which they function .

And if you really kind of think of us from that Bronfenbrenner model of just systems within systems , it's really important to nurture that entire parallel process for sustainability , of resilience and positive outcomes .

I don't wanna ignore that , because I'm hearing from a lot of parents and people talking about burnout as well , that rates have increased and mental health has increased both in parents and in kids as well . But there's so much talk around that . What are you seeing on your end ? Is this a lot of not fear mongering ?

But are we blowing it out of proportion or is this really what's happening ?

Because , I agree with Kelly , I think on our screening devices folks tend to under report . So if they're instead endorsing anonymously or talking with a friend or talking with their spiritual community or being willing to talk to a mental health professional , wonderful . So I'm glad that we're hearing from people who are suffering , that's good .

And I wonder how much of that suffering was happening pre-pandemic , with people suffering without disclosing how they were feeling . I do think we're part of a big wave of folks being more willing to talk about how they're truly experiencing life , and I think that's wonderful .

On the other hand , I also think and I think about this a lot that the pandemic was a traumatic event on a worldwide level and it was more of a complex trauma than it was a one-time event . Of course , we were all quarantined , talked about isolation , we were isolated .

We were doing the best we could in a number of different ways to try to connect with one another , often over screens , but there were many ways that our lives were disrupted .

Many , if not most , of us lost people , sometimes many people , and , as we've returned to what I'll call post-pandemic life because I don't think this is a return to normal or to pre-pandemic I think this is a different version of living . We have not really as a world certainly in the US , as a country process the trauma that occurred .

And when you don't process trauma , it builds up and it sneaks up on you and it comes out in intrusive thoughts or in difficulty sleeping or in anxiety that you can't quite put a finger on , or feelings of isolation or depression and many , many , many folks that I talk with in therapy as well as just friends and family .

Something doesn't feel quite right , something feels a little unsettled or a little unnerved , and we don't have good words for it , I think . But I wonder how much of it is unresolved trauma from a very prolonged traumatic experience .

Often it kind of feels like we're starting over in a sense , and we had actually pivoted some of our groups to virtual platforms over COVID and we were really quite surprised with how well they worked out and also it was just so obvious how needed they were .

But yeah , it feels like a lot of rebuilding of those social networks and especially thinking about parents that had children during the pandemic .

I just found like this mom group online on Facebook and just joined whatever they were doing , any evening , any outing , and the parents that I know that had children during the pandemic it wasn't the same . They didn't have any of these . Is there a benefit ?

I tried having a Zoom I would call them family meetings so that we can get together and just chat about things and openly do that without any judgment . And I had moms join and they just felt comfort knowing that on Mondays I did a clock they were coming to say hi , but then some parents said I don't have the energy to do that .

Is there still a benefit to kind of meeting on Zoom or should we just be really working hard as a community to get people back out ?

That's consistently been the case and I think what we have the real game changer for us now with virtual platforms is that folks who otherwise would be geographically limited or maybe they don't feel comfortable leaving the home because of any number of reasons , they can still receive social support via Zoom or virtual means of getting together , and I think that's huge

. One of the things we haven't talked about that was so impactful for me and I think actually really benefited my mental health and also my family's during the pandemic , is that we started a virtual dance party during early , early first week of being home during the pandemic and , silly me , set it up from eight to 8.30 every morning , thinking we'll be home for

like two or three weeks . So it'll be great . This will get me out of bed , it'll get me dressed , it'll get the kids doing something right . Well , hindsight being everything , of course , the virtual dance party went on on a daily basis for something like over in 150 sessions in a row .

Wow , what it did was , although we weren't really talking , we were dancing together and I'm not a dancer by any means , but the little kids and caregivers and myself and my kids , we dance on Zoom every morning and it just got you out of bed , it got you going . We used really positive , upbeat music .

We would have silly things like costumes , and the kids loved it and the caregivers loved it , and I thought it would end at the end of quarantine and instead people said , like you're gonna keep this going , right ? And we ended up doing the virtual dance party .

We switched it to just weekends after a while because we were exhausted , but we kept it going for two and a half years . Wow , people just loved coming together over a screen and being silly together , and there's something really powerful about that .

So I think we can use that to our advantage and at least just get to talk to people and open up . It's really important . So thank you for sharing that . I just wanna end this with maybe some tips or advice for parents . We've spoken about a lot today , and I think Kelly brought up the word coping .

Like , how do we , if a parent is listening to this and feels , well , I do identify with that , now what or how can I cope with this on my own ? Are there things I can do on my own at home , or do I need to go see a professional ? What advice can you share with them ?

So I started this lab at DU called Baby Steps and it stands for Supporting Teachers , educators , parents and Service Providers , and we're building an inventory based on Tracy's team's great work with one of our peer groups peer play groups where we're building this online inventory of all of the resources national and local right and not only just like resources of like

who do I call , who do I reach out to for X , y and Z services , but also just like little one pagers on what is perinatal depression ? How do I play with my child ? What milestones should my toddler be reaching ? When should I be concerned ?

I had a recent conversation with folks about toddler's speech and language development and this idea of like well , what's a word ? If 20 words , they should be saying , well , can you define what's a word ? Cause I have an understanding of what that word is , but does that count , right ? And what's appropriate for what age , right ?

So we're building out this really cool inventory , online inventory that's accessible to everybody and it'll have information for parents , it'll have information for folks that are providers , that are wanting to kind of connect with other people , right , because it's the other thing too . Is that it's really important that we understand .

We all have like a lane that we're in , but we should also be kind of driving together sometimes because we don't need to recreate a wheel . Right , it's true things that are already working right . So how do we build upon and how do we continue reaching right ?

So , if we're all doing really great work in these metropolitan urban areas , how do we kind of think innovatively about reaching those rural areas and folks that are in kind of what we call , like mental health treatment deserts , right ? So ? So really kind of thinking about resources online , and I'm happy to share that link .

But other than that , I just I think a big message that I hope people take away is that You're not alone , that a lot of people feel and have experienced what you're experiencing , and that there's really great things that we have to help right and that treatment doesn't have to be a scary thing . It's not .

We're not trying to get anybody in trouble , we're not trying to catch anybody . We're trying to help you and we're trying to help your baby really , really thrive . So that that's kind of my biggest tip and take home .

What do you do at 3am , when you're up with your baby , or you haven't showered in a few days and you're just feeling terrible ? There's a few things I like my perinatal folks to check in on , and they're like my perinatal basics . So , have you slept ? If not , no judgment here .

Lots of sleepless nights over here with my own kids , but remember that if you haven't slept , your mental health is probably not what it usually is . Treat yourself with a little bit of extra compassion and maybe wonder if your brain is playing a few tricks on you until you can get some sleep ?

Also , who can you ask to come help you out for a few hours so you can get a nap ? Similarly , have you eaten ? When was the last time you showered ? Have you gotten any sunlight and any exercise ? Or just movement , even just movement ? When was the last time you texted your best friend ?

What was your last conversation with your partner , like if you have a partner or other loved ones who have you checked in with ? And then , after those sort of mental health basics , I also like for parents to check in . What are the little , tiny things they could do for themselves ?

So not self care in the terrible way that it's been branded and marketed , but Tiny little moments of checking in with yourself . So when was the last time you brewed yourself a cup of coffee and you sat down and you Smelled it in and you just focused on your coffee and how you were doing for two minutes ?

And can you get someone To care for baby or care for your older kiddos so that you can get that gorgeous cup of coffee ? Or one was the last time that you watched your favorite TV show ? How can we work that in ?

So these small , very accomplishable moments that can really mean so much to our mental health and our well being , and I think those are the things that , if you're doing nothing else or you're not able to access mental health care , those are the small little things that we can all be doing and we can all be doing and we can be reminding and checking in on

our Peri needle friends and family about whether they're doing to really support one another .