Exploring Diversity and Inclusion in Children's Media

Today I want to share with you this amazing interview that I had with people involved not only in kids media but also in inclusivity . So I think that it's important that we , you know , kind of remind ourselves that screen time can have lots of benefits and that there's a lot of learning that can be done .

So I'm not just talking about , like these app games that you know , you trace the A or whatever it is . There's a lot more to that .

There are TV shows and movies and apps and books , and there are so many things around us that we can use as a base or a foundation to teach our kids really important skills and social skills and to help them understand the world that they live in and the world that they share this , or the people that they share this world with , and that is what I wanna

talk about today . I'm excited to share this interview with you . But , as you know , I need to get into the basics first with the Curious Nourant podcast One Fish , two Fish . First , I would like to thank our new sponsor , betterhelp , for supporting the Curious Nourant podcast .

Mental health and wellbeing of both the parent and the child are important to the brands we work with , which is why we were so happy to get the support and to get sponsored by BetterHelp for this podcast . Betterhelp is the world's largest therapy service and it's 100% online .

With BetterHelp , you can get the same professionalism and quality you expect from in-office therapy , but with access to a huge network of therapists , more scheduling flexibility and a more affordable price . Click the link below to get 15% off the first month of therapy .

Secondly , I would like to thank PocPoc Playroom for supporting the Curious Nourant podcast as well . We have been friends with PocPoc for a long time now and they are giving you 50% off a one year subscription for this app . Pocpoc is a collection of digital toys that spark creativity and learning through open-ended play .

This was , in fact , the first app that my kids ever played with that I felt comfortable introducing to them because it is open-ended , there aren't loud sounds , it's not over-stimulating , so it's great for neurotypical kids , for neurodivergent kids , it's okay for a calming activity , even if it's screen time .

So I really do encourage you to try it out for seven days for free and to click on the link in the show notes to download the app and get 50% off your first year . And lastly , a sponsor for August Only is a company that is local , based here in Montreal , called Go Coconut .

If you follow me on Instagram , you know that most of the pictures that involve my kids playing involve their play couch , and this play couch is designed so well and basically takes three kids jumping on it every single day and hasn't changed its structure .

So if you are looking for a very good quality play couch that will take your child away from the screen and give them some physical activity during the day , whether it's summer or winter , or rainy day or cold day , you could have the play couch in your home and get 15% off , only for the month of August .

So click on the link below to get 15% off your play couch and use the code curiousneuron . And lastly , if you haven't done so yet and you're enjoying the curious neuron podcast , don't forget that you can rate it and review it on Spotify or on Apple podcasts , and send me an email at info at curiousneuroncom .

I will send you a free PDF called Meltdown Mountain , which is a visual that can help your child understand when they're starting to feel dysregulated , why or what tools , sorry that you can use when you're feeling dysregulated , and it'll give you the information that you need to support your child through this .

All right , friend , I hope that you enjoy this interview with Kim and Adriana as much as I did . I will see you on the other side . Welcome back to the curious neuron podcast . My name is Cindy Huffington and I am your host , and I am joined today by two people . I'm joined by Kim and Adriana . Welcome , thanks for having us . Hello , I'm happy to be here .

Thanks for joining . You know I'm excited for this conversation because it's one that I have not had yet in five seasons , and I think it's very needed .

Starting from a screen perspective , you know we talk a lot about screens and media for kids and sometimes it gets , often gets a bad rep , and I think that we need to look at it really from a different lens today in terms of educational and what we can really help , what we can teach our kids and how it can guide us through that , including diversity and

inclusion . So what can we , you know , by the end of today , I'm hoping that parents have this sort of blueprint of what they can do to have these conversations and where they could begin and so on . So how about we start by understanding a little bit more about the work that you both do with One Fish , two Fish .

So really , it came out of what started actually at Toronto Metropolitan University , where we created the Children's Media Lab , because we didn't see enough research , in particular in Canada , but just research in general that was saying , hey , what are we seeing on screens , what's missing and what can content creators do about it ?

So really , both of the organizations are about bridging this gap between content creators and academia and academic thought and all of the things that we can use to help content creators make better content . So that's kind of the summary of the two organizations and I know , adriana , you probably want to add something on .

We talk to kids , we get their perspectives , we talk to parents and we just make sure those authentic voices are behind the scenes and making sure that content creators kind of know the research , just like Kim said that's out there and what they can do to improve their content to make it better for kids .

But where there's the more general issues about how kids are , who they are , how things are affecting them in the world , all of those kind of other things , how not seeing themselves reflected , all of that stuff , that's not just saying I'm doing a science show or a math show or an early literacy show , that's something else .

And that's hard for a producer or writer , directors to have all of those skills . They might be good at one particular thing , but to know all of that . And that's , I think , part of why we started both the organizations , because oftentimes they don't have the time or know where to look or even know what they don't know .

And it's not to say they don't want to do their best and aren't trying really hard , it's just some , you know . That's it . We're trying to just help enhance and bring attention to some of those issues . And there are other organizations that do this kind of thing as well .

But you know , we really came at it , I think , with a Canadian focus and trying to get Canadian data . That was relevant and really useful to content creators in Canada .

But you know , when I think of the TV shows and I had a bit of a glimpse of what happens when I joined Kids Green in Miami this year , which blew me away like just the back end of everything that we don't realize and how many people are involved , which I had no idea before . Kim , your background is in kids media , right .

So what is sort of , I guess , a two minute kind of summary , because I know there's a lot that happens behind the scenes . But what is the process when we see these shows on screen , like what happened before , and how do we bring in the educational content and the content of diversity that you guys are talking about ?

And in that period of development , you know , a lot of things happen . There's often a writer's Bible that's created , a production Bible about what you want to achieve , all of those types of things , but it actually , and then it depends on the production in terms of how much time they want to put into . You know , focus testing it with kids .

Maybe they come to One Fish and say , hey , can you focus test it and we'll see if this comedy is working , if kids understand this part . Not all projects do that . They're . It's more common in preschool and it's more common when you're working with educational broadcasters or those who have an educational goal at the end of the road .

So , but that's sometimes part of the process and , as I mentioned earlier , you might bring in a consultant that's an expert on something , whether it's an expert in math , or bringing in us and we say , oh , there's a character who's Cree , or a character who's has a limb difference and let's make sure we bring in our authentic consultants , because we have this

diversity of consultants on our team now to come in and help you make sure that that's accurately written . So sometimes there's a lot of that that happens during the process and then the production part can be up to two years .

If it's an animated show , because there's a , you know , there's a writer , producer , there's directors , there's even an animation , there's person who's in charge of the animation team , there is a person who does one specific thing . You might have a show that does .

If it's stop motion , for example , you might have 10 booths set up and everybody does three seconds in a week . So there's you know it's different . A live action show is very different because it can be done in a shorter amount of time .

But you know , animation has really increased over the last number of years and a big part of that is it's easier to sell because you can add your own local languages to it . So it's becoming even more popular and there's a you know , there's a business reason for that .

So there's a lot of process and then , even within that process , now it's harder to get a show made , it's harder to have the financing to get it made . So let's say , you get a local broadcast or a streaming service , but then you might need some other monies . There might be two other or three other partners around the world who are in on a project .

So now you've got your production company and the executive at your company giving notes to the production . There might be someone at this other company giving notes and somebody at this , so you can see how there's already a lot of voices .

So sometimes content creators don't go outside and say , oh , let's add another one and get those consultants to give us some more feedback , because they feel like there's a lot . So again , I don't think it's , you know , not because people aren't trying to make the best projects . I think it's really there's a lot going on .

There's time pressures and there's budget pressures . So you really have to have a moment to stop and think , and we're always saying this to content creators try to build in those moments to stop and think about things right . Those moments are what makes that change happen .

And so , but anyway , but some of them do , because they think about it , because they're making a mass show , or they're making , you know , a digital balance show like Dot , that Henson show , or it's like how do you balance these things ?

There's all sorts of great shows that go outside , but oftentimes they're racing to finish the show and that's where sometimes we see something . We think , oh , I wish we'd been able to be a part of that , because it's sometimes just little things , small tweaks , small changes , just an understanding of things that makes things a little bit different .

think , oh , I wish I'd done this one thing and I had a developmental psychologist as my main preschool expert . On the deep , like you did everything you can , but you still can't do it all perfectly . But I think in general we're seeing a big change in the last , say , five or six years after George Floyd's death .

You know , the discovery of Black Lives Matter , the discovery of the Indigenous graves in Canada that was a major change point in terms of people becoming more aware . So now there was so much more conversation just in .

You know you went to kids screen you mentioned , so I'm sure you heard a lot more about inclusion , diversity , belonging , how do we do authentic storytelling these are all buzzwords now . But so we've seen a lot of change as people have kind of turned a little bit to pay more attention to those things .

So we're seeing a better balance of gender as an example , of race inclusion as another example . But we still see like some areas that are lagging .

You know , like reflection of , you know , all the communities , so there's some that are like South Asian is a burgeoning , growing community in North America and lagging behind in terms of the numbers Indigenous characters . But we're also seeing a need to do more around disabilities , characters with disabilities , nor diverse characters and 2SLGBTQ characters .

Those are still a little bit lower on the priority and , of course , there's lots of politics right now around some of those issues that play a role , in particular around 2SLGBTQ must issues . So I mean , I think those are the things we're seeing .

We're seeing a lot of improvement , but also some things that are missing , and I don't know if I've missed anything off of that list that you want to add , adriana .

However , there's no non-binary characters in preschool televisions , and so it's really interesting actually to be behind the scenes and read some of these showbibles and things , because , even though this research is out there , content creators are writing to their own unconscious biases and things like that which behind the scenes research does show is more male .

So we're seeing these STEM characters , for example , and you read the description , and then there's the name and the pronouns it's more often than not , it's him .

It's just super , super fascinating to me , because all the research shows these stats about how it's unequal , and then it's not getting to the content creators and again , like Kim said before , it's not their fault .

But that's one of the main things that we do is point out these things and be like why don't we just switch this to be a girl and the characteristics in the description can stay exactly as it is . Nothing else needs to change ? So it is , on the surface , about gender and race and disabilities , but it's also who they are as characters .

What are their complexities ? What's in their descriptions Like ? Who are their personalities ? That they shouldn't just be these one dimensional females wearing bows ?

that , yes well I think bow , yeah , definitely are getting better and we're seeing those changes , but I think there's still a lot of room for growth and for the research to just get out there and for even parents to be aware of these things while they're watching shows with their kids , that they can talk about these things , you know if they're stereotypes .

Just have a conversation with your child and be like you know , not every girl or boy is like this . You can also be like this and this and this . So I think it's just having that diversity on all ends and all friends is super important .

Sometimes We'd show up with different parts or things from the lab and when we show up , the first thing we do when we say hi , is ask every single student to draw a scientist . What does a scientist look like ? And I think it was like 90% of the drawings looked like Einstein and had , like the mad scientist , hair . They were males .

Even the girls were drawing males . And we ran a study because what we saw at the end of the year after we were going there every single month and by the end of the school season , when we asked them to draw a scientist , kids were drawing themselves or a girl or you know . Just that , just it looked very different than their first drawing .

And I get the point of having this kind of diversity and in you know , tv shows and kids with kids are watching , because it's not just about seeing somebody different but it's seeing themselves too right , like seeing yourself in that character . You mentioned you know very intense topics that I know many parents might say how do I talk about .

You know , black Lives Matter , or what's happening with the indigenous community , or what we're here learning about . Is that something that is coming into a preschool show , and if so , is that something I should be having a conversation with my child about , and where do I begin ?

So how can you guide parents in terms of that , or what's being brought into kids' media ?

You know media is this controversial , I was like , yeah , it has thoughts about it , but the truth is it's everywhere and no matter who you're , you know how hard you try your kids are going to be exposed to media and it's going to be a part of your family life .

So , talking about media literacy , talking about the things that you see on screen , and a lot of that is about , you know , race representation , gender representation , you know gender performativity how are we seeing the moms and dads acting ? What are they doing ? When we're watching a show ?

You know , when we're watching a show like Peppa Pig , which has lots of people saying things about it , you know , oh , there's dad going off to work , there's mom staying at home doing the laundry , like there's all of those kinds of things that we're seeing . So , whether it's race , whether it's gender , whether it's that , you know Paw Patrol , another huge show .

So there's , you know it started off in the first year with seven characters . There was one female character and six male characters , and the female character was smaller , quieter , shyer , more caring and nurturing , and had a pink , a smaller outfit . There's so many of those little things that you can be talking about , so you don't have to .

I think it's overwhelming to think how do I deal with talking about these big issues ? And you really have to just start talking . And I think you start talking when you start watching and you know making it about . What do you see ? You know it's , you know , because preschoolers I mean it's a great thing about preschoolers they have healthy imaginations .

Everything they see it's like yeah , that's real . And that's part of the problem , right ? Because what they see , if they think what they see is real , then you know it's going to have an impact them , on them . So you need to be having those conversations . Oh , did you notice ?

You know , in our family there's , you know , x Y , z , but when we were watching these two shows we watched today , what did you see Like ? What did the families look like ? And that's you know . You just need to start talking and talking .

I have a 15 year old son and he's a guy who plays video games and in many ways he's a typical guy who likes his interests , but he has me for a mom .

So you know , we I just started talking at a young age and you know he'd watched stuff and we'd just talked about it , and now I am amazed at what he will say to me , that he might even notice in a show that I don't notice because I , you know , you've just kind of . You have to start training your kids to be critical thinkers .

Media literacy is not a course at school . It's they kind of weave it where , depending on where you are , it's woven throughout subjects but never really addressed early enough and enough period .

So , having just talking about what you see on screens and not being shy about actually using language , you know there was that study last year at a Paramount in Nickelodeon and Noggin , where you know they interviewed parents and families and you know white families talked about racism in soft terms Whereas you know , you know non-white families had more like , they

were more honest and open and spoke real language in terms like racism versus helping and involving everyone , which your white families did .

So it's those kind of things starting to talk and have those conversations and not be afraid to use correct language and , as you know , as kids age they'll just start to understand a little bit more so at first you're just maybe pointing out and comparing it to other things that they can actually compare and contrast to . Oh , you're , you know your school .

Do you notice how kids at your school , like they , look different than what we're seeing on the show ? So it's those just little things that you notice . Every show on preschool show seems to have a family living in a house with a driveway . Well , you know , in 10 years I think it's 10 or 15 years 90% of us will live in cities . So are we living in ?

Is that where we're living in houses with driveways ? I don't think so . We're living in semi-detached houses and apartments and cars . So it's even that kind of stuff can just get kids to start talking and developing those skills , so that they start to talk more and , you know , start to develop those concrete skills .

The future is about critical thinking skills and being able to watch media and think about it and notice something is just a really terrific way to start , even with younger preschoolers .

There was a scene where I don't know if it was Elmore another character was singing Twinkle Twinkle and she or singing a song or singing something to her or speaking to her , and she wasn't responding . And my kids had asked me like why is she ignoring them ?

And it just led to that conversation of some people are different and some kids might not respond the same way . It doesn't mean they don't want to be friends with you , but you can still be kind to them . So we had it . They were young at that time . So , you know , I tried to have it at their level . But you mentioned disabilities and I agree with you .

I think we should see that a lot more , because then it helps us have that conversation within our home , because then kids will often point it out really loudly in public and say like what's wrong , right ? And I think it's so nice to have that opportunity in the home to say there's nothing wrong . They're different and they have different , you know .

So what would you ? How would you guide a parent who's listening in terms of disabilities , and how to move forward with that in terms of a conversation with a young child ?

It's like remembering that it's a , it's a mirror and it's a window . So you know , a mirror means , like my son is hard of hearing , so a window . A mirror means when he sees a character , which isn't .

Doesn't happen very often , but there's an amazing one in Dragon Prince , just as an aside , that General Amaya , the leader of the of the army , who's amazing and the storyline is written about her amazingness and the deafness isn't like this , oh , and she's deaf . It's just integrated in a way that makes her character even stronger .

There's a comedy element and all sorts of things . So I cannot tell you what happened when he saw that character , because it was so exciting for him . And that's what happens with kids , because they see a character who looks like them , whether it's the color of their skin , the way they're acting . You know where they live , oh , that's it .

You know , in an apartment building , just like as whatever it is so , but it's also an important part in terms of a window for them to start to see that there are , as you mentioned , this character is different and this person is different . And why ?

Because it's really important for kids to understand that there's a myriad of different people that make up the world , and all of us together is what makes everything so amazing . So it's . I think it's important to like just that simple language of there's some people are the same and different is great , and I'll throw it to you , adriana .

But recognizing those differences and celebrating them and just making your , your kids , understand what that means and about who they are , I think is is so valuable , even if it does mean , you know , like parents might get tripped up and not know what to say , but just pointing those simple things out .

It doesn't have to go into like these deep conversations about why or how come , but it just pointing out that there are differences and it's okay that they're different . But we can still treat them with kindness and respect .

And you know , media is such a great platform to do that that , like kids can get exposed to so many different cultures and groups of people .

If they , if they don't have that around them in their environments , that media is such an important way for them to do that they can see these characters on screen and have those conversations with their parents and then that way , when they do go to a store , you know , maybe they're not calling out someone because they'll understand .

There was a huge study . There have been a number of study about princesses , but there was one done and a number of years ago , where they had girls around the world drawing pictures , asking them what does a princess look like ?

And girls , no matter where they were , what their skin color was , what their hair color was , they all drew white females with blonde hair . That's what they drew right . And there's continuing studies . There's , I think , disney the Disney princess concept has been studied so much .

We know it has tremendous impact , and I think one of the things I want to point out about that is you know , we talk about these changes that have happened and one of the things that concerns me is that children's media , like everything else , is a business , and right now , when you watch media , we all know that media is about who has the most content .

Netflix , disney Plus is probably going to take over Netflix . Why ? Because they're going to end up having more content that's relevant to people to watch , right ? So it's all about inventory . When you have inventory , a lot of that content , isn't this great content ?

And not to say that everything new is great and everything old is bad , but there's definitely more awareness and inclusion in more recent content , and inventory from 10 , 15 years ago which is still on all of those streaming platforms is a little bit more like the old school Disney princesses versus some of the new things that Disney's trying to do with adding a

bit more color and energy to their female lead characters , right ? So I think that's a concern for for parents , when they're watching , thinking about you know , what are we watching here ? Are we watching stuff ? For , you know , when you're watching those old movies that kids love ?

So , and those are the ones you really want to be talking about , because you might be able to say , hey , when we're watching this , this movie , can we talk about , you know , emile Ann or one of the more recent ones . What's the difference ? What's the difference in that , like there's a good way to do it .

And then we brought in screen time and I , as a new parent , was the most excited to show my kids all the Disney movies that I had to watch to when I was young and I'll never forget playing Cinderella for my daughter she's she's the oldest , but at that time she was about two and a half three and and showing her Cinderella and within like two minutes of

the movie , saying , oh , what is this ? This is not the lens that I watched the movie in and what , what , how can I ? And then , as the movie went on , I was like should I keep playing it ? Like I don't think this is right , I can't .

And then moving on to the next and Snow White and all the movies and just really having this conversation with parents that we have such good memories and fond memories of these movies that like we grew up in and now like we love the Disney princesses , but now I was hesitating to move on and forward and show my daughter and my boys now like these , these

movies . They ended up watching them all , but I think they did start good conversations and I saw play change after they watched a couple of those . They fell into certain characters . My daughter was always the princess , which never happened in the home . By that time , let's say , they were about three and a half four .

She was three and a half four and and there was always a prince and my sons were the princes and she was the princess and they saved her and they came and swept her away and they were so small and they fell into that and I was like why am I so ?

I'm not happy with this , but I wanted to show them that either one could have been that character Anyway . So there was a lot of conversation that happened around that . Am I the only one that experienced this ? And have you heard about this before ?

You know there's so many phrases about how it influences your hopes and dreams and what you think you can do . By what you see on screens and a lot of those Disney movies , there's the shapes of the characters , how sexualized they are like . There's so many things that if you don't think they're sexualized , it's like the eyelashes which we like .

There's so many elements that have an impact . So , even I think this is a common conversation that parents have , because it's really frustrating , because you love them , and I think there's a couple of things .

One you want to remember that you thought this was normal growing up and that is a good message for all of us to remind ourselves like I think about it all the time how different the values were . And that helps , I think , us always thinking about our own implicit biases , because we didn't grow up thinking this is terrible .

I mean , I remember as a girl thinking I could do anything because I had brothers and I was like , but the truth was you were told something else . But it also reinforces that idea that you really have to be thinking about what your kids are watching and balancing it . It's important to balance that old content with something new and then talk about it .

Right To have those contrasts . So is this because when this is a common conversation you have with even those leading early learning centers , like in early grades , where all the kids start to fall back into this oh , the princess does this , oh , let's get married , and everybody says , oh , it's okay , it's okay .

But you have to be engaging in conversations so kids understand this is just one way , and the great way to do that is show shows where there are other things going on . The Bravest Night has two dads and who are the dads of ? So that's something different .

So you can talk about that and if , depending on what your beliefs are , you can discuss it in a way that works for your own family . But just to show that there's a range of families , the biggest growing family types right now are single parent families , like single moms in particular , and step families . So are we seeing a lot of that on screen ?

I don't think so . So it's like those are conversations you can have . Here's what we're seeing in this show . What do we see when you go to school or when you're playing with your friends or when we're at our relatives hey , do you notice that Uncle John and Aunt Mary they both have kids from their first marriage or whatever different conversations ?

I think it just gets back to that . The most important thing to do is talk about it , and I know parents will say we're busy . How can we do it all the time ? You don't have to do it all the time . You just , you know , want to do it .

And especially , you know we find a lot that there's a lot of parents who watch when their kids are young , especially when they're watching okay , whatever it is Disney Plus or Netflix or a CDC , whatever they're watching but maybe not paying as much attention on a platform like YouTube , which is one of the biggest platforms for kids watching .

It's one of the top three preschoolers do and to me , that's one you really want to talk about too , because it's a bit of the wild west in the sense that you know I mentioned all of those people trying to make good , creative content in a production company or a broadcast or a streaming service .

And then you might have , you know , some guy who lives down the street who puts his kids on camera and puts a bunch of content out . So you can imagine there's a difference . And it's not that again that it's all bad , but there's a lot I think we have found and we actually have a research study we're doing right now .

I'm just going to say there's some issues there on YouTube in terms of what we're seeing . So those are the kind of things you will also want to be looking at that , because it's easier to pass a phone to a four year old or five year old where the YouTube videos go one after the other .

And you might know the first one's about you know some nursery song about colors , but the second one might be about something else . And then the third one , like Coco Melon , which is this super brand that started online . That's about his gendered .

Like mom stays at home , dad comes back with presents for the kids , the boys get rocket ships and trucks , the girl gets crayons Like there are so much . Every moment it feels like there's something you can talk about in Coco Melon .

Again , not to say it's all bad , but when you're putting on stuff like that that has a lot more gender stuff , a lot more whiteness , a lot more old school nuclear family . It could be a show in the fifties if it would have been done . You , you know , those are the ones you want to make sure you're talking about , rather than just letting them play out .

One year later , and then a similar study found that three to five year old girls pretend play revolved around things like beauty , clothing and accessories and like twirling hand posing things like that . When Disney princess costumes were made available , I guess in the experimental room , but when they weren't there , all those patterns went away .

Like their play was just , you know , normal play . It wasn't gender stereotypical play , I didn't . They weren't focusing on appearance or clothing . It was just , you know , kids being kids . So yeah , it's definitely has been shown to impact kids behaviors and their play outside of the screen when they see things like that .

It could be my boys , it could be my daughter , anybody could be a princess in this home if they want to . I don't . I had , I showed them all those movies and then I just let them be whatever they want to be . There aren't any rules to play . Play is universal and there are . There's no gender to play , right ?

So , however , I've had this discussion with friends where they're like . So what Like ? What's wrong with with us letting them the boys be boys and play with their trucks and the girls play with their dresses ? What would you respond to that ?

But as parents I feel like it's the responsibility to pick different types of media so that they're exposed to all these different types of toys . So not just buying dolls , but buying dolls and trucks and letting them choose . And if they really show an interest towards one thing , you know you don't have to go buy a thousands of dolls to see that interest .

Keep the truck there just in case , you know they change their mind and they want to play with that . I think it's just important to give them the range of things so that they can experience all those things .

One quick thing my work at Seigo Mini one of the parents I talked to was , like you know , I would never have known my child loved trucks or my daughter loved trucks and diggers if it wasn't for one of your apps .

Because Seigo Mini world I don't know if parents listening are familiar , but there's like tons of worlds kids can explore , and so it's giving kids those options . So they get to go , they get to choose what they want , and I guess this daughter just kept going towards the trucks and the diggers .

But we do have a fairy tales world and we do have , like these other worlds , so it's just giving them the options to let them experience what they like and their dislikes and what their interests are and what they're curious about . So yeah , to end that I don't think there's anything wrong with it .

I think it's just allowing them to experience all of the things that that kids should can play with , and not just tailoring to one gender or the other .

I hated leggings and tights and jeans and I just wanted to be in the comfortable clothing . And I remember the struggle at home . I remember the struggle making friends because I was stuck in between in a world that apparently wasn't my world , but why can't it be everyone's world ?

So I think that the inclusion part is showing kids that you don't have to be a tomboy . You can just be a girl that likes sports . What's wrong with that ? So I know we're shifting away from that , but it's nice to see that it's being included in media as well .

The generally accepted rule is pink for the boys and blue for the girls . Pink is a stronger color , so boys should have it and blue is more delicate and dainty , so that should be for the girls . And keep in mind , you know , we all we've seen all the royal babies . They have all those gowns on the boys , just like the girls .

There's all these old kids used to always wear dresses to do three , and then we decided something different and then we decided something different and then so we're always changing and altering and sometimes totally emphasizing certain ways .

So I think it really gets back to you know , to build on what Adriana is saying , it's like you want to give them options and part of that is with media , like that's one thing you can do . Look for a show that has a strong lead character doing STEM , look for a show that has , and then balance that out .

If frozen is the big hit in the house , balance that out with frozen , but do a match of things . That is , you know , these Disney princess , but also these powerhouse girls and there's so many more to choose from now and also boys , and sometimes it's harder to find the boys who are exhibiting a greater range of characteristics .

We see that all the time and that's one of the things we encourage content creators to do try to write boys . But we're seeing men do way more chores . They might still be not the dishes of the laundry , but we're seeing men do more chores .

We're seeing some improvement , right , but seeking out those shows where you see characters like a preschool show , like Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood the boys on that show are really lovely , there's awareness of emotions , there's empathy , there's caring about all those great things . So it's about maybe balancing .

So you find some of those ones that it's like the boys are superhero , zapp , zip , zap , zoo , and then add some more with some emotional depth and range of characters and seeing dads in different ways and not just the stereotypical assistive dad or absent dad or whatever . Like seeing different characters in a number of different ways .

So you start to see this range and again , that helps with those conversations too .

Before an animation is complete , there's something called an animation , which is like moving images , like all a bunch of you know flat images , not moving , that are just put together so you kind of get an idea . So oftentimes we're showing something like that and we're watching them to see how kids engage .

Do they laugh here , do they understand something , do they look away ? And then you're asking a number of questions about it afterwards in a variety of ways to engage , get some answers that help content creators see where there are areas that can be improved , what does work and what doesn't .

I mean we obviously do a lot of research and have access to a lot of research and do our own , so we often have a pretty good idea and then sometimes we're surprised by something that works or doesn't work when you actually talk to kids . So that's what we often do when we're doing kind of focus testing .

Yeah , definitely we include like we really big on including diversity in our focus , testing to get some of that feedback . And it actually makes me think of something else that Adrian and I were part of a couple years ago . That was a really interesting study .

We worked with the black screen office and we did the kid , they did adults , some grown-up stuff , but we mostly we don't care about kids and parents but we did the kids component , which was the study was called being seen and it was asking the kids who were historically marginalized , you know , children of color , children with disabilities to SLGBTQ kids , and from

six to 16 , I think we did it 16 , adrian or something like that yeah , and we basically asked them about what they were seeing on screens , whether they saw themselves , and it was amazing to hear them because they had so much .

I wish every content creator could sit and listen to those kids because they were so passionate , and especially , the more marginalized they were , the more they had to say because , you know , some of the kids could see there had been some improvements .

But boys , those , some of the children with disabilities , were like they had so much going on about what they wanted to see . And I always say that to like to content creators . It's so easy to say , oh , I remember when I was little , I love this , so the kids will love this .

Or I have , you know , your research group of one , my daughter , my son , whatever , loves this .

It's really important to be talking to kids all the time , not like go every day , but if you don't have kids of your own or if you just get away with it , it's like it's really important because it's you think one thing when you're a producer , director , writer , and it's you know to go and actually talk to a three year old when you're thinking about this

idea . It's really a valuable thing because you realize it's different than you remember , because we have these ideas that we can remember all this stuff and it's hard . Right , it's hard . Yes , I can't remember what I had for breakfast , so like we possibly remember Same .

Sego Mini is a very open-ended world where kids can explore . There's no right or wrong answers , so , and the characters are non-verbal as well . So we have to make sure there's a very intuitive design that's easy for kids to use , and so we watch them play with their apps and make sure that you know they're having fun and they're understanding .

But one of the things for at least app companies , you're kind of tailoring towards two audiences , so you're getting the parents , who are the people that buy the apps , but they only buy it if their kid enjoys it .

So I do a lot of research with both sides of those , and so one of the actually really cool things that we did recently since we're on the topic of diversity , inclusion is , you know , we had to do some research for , like , what kids know about kitchens and what they understand about kitchens . I know very random and I can't say much more than that .

That's amazing . So I just like recruited a couple of kids and I had Zoom sessions with them and I've already I built rapport with these families and they took me on tours around their kitchen and they showed us in their cupboards and what snacks they like and what's in their fridge . And one of these girls from the stage there's a white family .

She was six years old and she pulls out these snacks that are Korean snacks . And the mom was just explaining like , yeah , we go to the Korean store like almost every weekend and we have like , and she pulled out , I swear , a hundred of her favorite snacks .

And so , you know , I went back to the team and I'm like , hey , like we need a diversity piece in this , this topic that we're doing , because you know like you don't think about those things . But yeah , kids are eating all types of foods . You know , sushi , like all those things , Mexican food , taco , like taco Tuesdays . I know it's a big thing in family .

So it's one of the things that we're implementing and one of the things we're working on because of what came out of those interviews , which is really , really cool . But yeah , so we do user testing on our apps , but we also get inspiration from kids by just talking to them and , you know , showing us around their house .

You know my kids love it as well and it's so fun to hear that there's so much thought that goes into what you're seeing right Like . We know the goal is entertainment , but there's actual like , there's actual thoughts that go behind that to make sure that there's a diverse like environment for our children .

So I love that you guys are doing that Very , very cool .

And it's amazing when a show has done something really well where you get kids saying , oh , now I get this , Like before you ask them questions after the end , and you see and that's where there's success from you know , hopefully from us having given notes along the process where they suddenly you can say , in that seven minute episode a kid went from knowing

nothing about this topic and now they have all this knowledge . So it's an amazing tool to kind of use as a kind of a starting line and then , hopefully , this amazing finish line .

environment and their media . To finish off this conversation , is there any last tips that you have or even TV shows you really recommend , or you know apps ? I know Sego Mini is an amazing app for all kids that you guys would just recommend for the parents .

You know Paw Patrol after the first season , a whole bunch of mums got on Twitter and you know , hashtag include the girls and that was a big reason why there was a second female character added . You know , have a voice and speak up . You know I talk about what we just we construct gender , we construct all these things .

The only way change happens is when people speak up . So I'm a big fan of talking to your kids and also speaking up if you don't see what you like . And you know , making your voice known with social media makes it . That's one good thing about social media because you get a lot of like-minded people on board really quickly . So that's one of the pieces .

I think that that's helpful . That's really good advice .

Go and like look at all the media that our kids are using , because I know parents are busy and can't do that , because they're learning it from peers , they're learning at school , they're learning it from parents at home and how they interact with others at the store and stuff like that .

So I don't , again , I don't want parents to feel stressed out about this , but just to be a little bit more conscious about what your kids are seeing and what apps they're using and just doing a little bit more research into that . And just having those conversations when you can and when you have the time is super important .

So if I give them , you know , an hour of screen time , I'm doing something on the side and they're clicking around and finding what they want to watch and I try to . They know what they , you know .

They know they have to be in the kids section , but you know what's happened a couple times where I would peek in and watch what they were watching and I was like , oh no , no , that's not , that's not appropriate .

There's like certain Not Barbie , or there might have been Barbie or something else that my daughter chose and the language was like a teenager and she was changing how she was speaking to me . Whatever . Mom , like , what are your five week ? What are you doing ? But I realized that there were certain things .

I do think that we have a responsibility To kind of sit with them every once in a while to see what they're watching , and to Number one , even if we just hear a topic and say why I'm going to continue that conversation during dinner or later on , I think we do have the responsibility as well .

Tell me , like a dinner time yes , we found out what was interesting in that show , two things that stood out to you . And then again it develops those habits of them looking for things to talk about .

So they'll stop saying , oh , you know so and so had a pink dress , and might say , oh , it was really weird , because I noticed that you know all the dads worked in the mom's day at home , or the girls were really quiet or whatever . They said .

Like I think that's a great way to say you can pick what you want , go pick something , but you got to tell me about it afterwards .