Evelyn Tribole: Raising Intuitive Eaters and Overcoming Diet Culture

Today we are talking about intuitive eating and I'm really excited to cover this topic because I was having a discussion with counselor that works at a high school and she was telling me that they're seeing a lot of eating disorders and struggles with teenagers in secondary one and two So that's grade seven and eight here in Canada And they have been struggling with

getting teenagers mostly girls to eat . A lot of them are refusing to eat during lunchtime and giving reasons why they don't want to eat , but they know that there's something much bigger around this And they're trying to bring up the awareness in the school about the importance of eating and to talk about nutrition and to talk about mental health issues as well .

So I thought it would be interesting to talk about eating , especially because it could impact very young kids or it could impact their home . If we ourselves , as parents , struggle with our relationship with food , it is something that can trickle down to our kids .

I've also been having this discussion with a friend of mine who's struggling with her mom kind of bringing up these issues within her home or her siblings home They all have kids as well and saying things like oh , you know , to a 11 year old you look really skinny in that dress or the kids asking , hey , grandma , would you like a piece of this cake that we

made , or a cookie ? And she says things like no , no , i'm too fat to eat that .

So I really do think that we need to have a discussion around the importance of healthy conversations around food and developing a very healthy relationship with food , and I thought that Evelyn would be one of the best people that I could bring on to this podcast to have this conversation .

So , before I move on to share the conversation with you , i'd like to thank the Tanenbaum Open Science Institute for supporting the CuresNorm podcast . I can't say it enough .

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So let's move on to my conversation with Evelyn , but first I just want to introduce you to her , so if you haven't heard of her yet , she is the co-author of the book called Intuitive Eating , and she now has a workbook as well 10 Principles for Nurshing a Healthy Relationship with Food .

Evelyn Tribally is an award-winning registered dietitian with a nutrition counseling practice in Newport Beach , california . She was a nutrition expert for Good Morning America and was a national spokesperson for the American Dietetic Association . For six years She was contributing .

She was a contributing editor for Shape Magazine , where her monthly column recipe makeovers appeared . For seven years . She's sought after by the media . She's been on CNN , nbc's Today Show . She's been in The New York Times , fox News , usa Today , the Wall Street Journal , the Atlantic Vogue you name it . She's been there .

She's an amazing person , so compassionate and intelligent , and it was a pleasure to speak with her . I hope you enjoy my conversation with Evelyn . Hi , evelyn , welcome to the Curious Neuron podcast . Hi , thrilled to be here .

I'm looking forward to this conversation because I know that eating is a very challenging part of a parent's life And what I love is that the work you do and the book that you have is evidence based , and I was having fun sifting through the literature a little bit and seeing what's out there , and I think this will help give parents some sort of guidance when

it comes to eating . So , before we begin , i'm curious how you ended up in what you're doing today . Oh my goodness .

So we went to the literature , we factored in our clinical experience , also looked at what contemporary writers were having to say and came up with the 10 principles of intuitive eating , and so we can say that intuitive eating was research inspired . But fast forward .

Today we have almost 200 studies on our work validating it And I think , for your audience , what you might be interested to know , that a lot of the principles were actually influenced by the parent-child feeding relationship , notably the works of L L Birch , and what her work has shown is that And I'm not throwing parents under the bus , i'm a parent and I think

it's one of the most humbling things you can do in life But what her research showed is that if well-meaning parents originally restrict their kids eating , it actually creates the very opposite of what they're intending . This is , let's say , a parent is forbidding a sugar , all desserts .

That's the kid that ends up really going to town at a birthday party stuffing their pockets full of candy and so on , because you can't get you focus on And then what they tend to do is sneak the candy or the sugar and then end up feeling guilty about that And so it gets really complex And so it undermines their little body's self-sense of press because the

eating becomes opportunistic versus based on what's going on right now with my hunger and fullness and those kinds of things .

But then on the other end , there are parents who were raised a certain way of like finish what's in your plate , you need to finish it all and eat it all , and are continuing that cycle or are just not sure which direction to take . So how can we take this intuitive eating ?

or first I guess we should define what it is and what it looks like and then see how we can bring that into our homes with our kids .

But that's our ability to perceive physical sensations that arise within the body . And what's so significant about that ? it goes beyond just hunger and fullness . Intraceptive awareness physical sensations are also reflected in our emotions and our feelings that we have .

Sometimes when you hear the phrase , oh my god , i had a visceral reaction or I had a gut reaction , we're really talking about a form of intraceptive awareness And so it's really rather profound .

And so I would say , at the heart of this , when we're working with parents and kids , it's about trusting that your kids hunger and fullness cues can work , that they can self-regulate . And probably the youngest where this really gets started .

We addressed it in our fourth edition , our most recent edition of the book , and it's baby intuitive eating , which is basically baby-led weaning , and for the parents I have worked with over the years who have been involved in this , where they let the babies self-regulate , it can actually be really quite delightful and quite healing to witness a child be able to

feed themselves and enough in which they're able to grow , and so on . And if you ever want to look at videos of this , there's an account that I love , feeding Little's , on Instagram , and it's a team of a dietitian and occupational therapist .

In fact , the dietitian's also trained in intuitive eating And they do a marvelous job of addressing parents' concerns , from babies to all the way up to toddler and elementary school age kids .

And one of the things I challenge parents , especially parents of young children who are planning to have families , is I challenge what the aspiration of what would it be like to end the legacy of diet culture at your kitchen table , if you think about your own experiences and maybe the fraught relationship you've had with eating in your body , and we don't want to

pass that on to our kids . So how do we protect them ? And intuitive eating is one of those ways And what happens is if you're giving well-meaning suggestions like finish your plate , you can't eat this , you can't eat that , it doesn't allow the kid to self-regulate , it creates a bigger problem in the long term . And again , parents are very well-meaning .

This might be very new information And in our book we have a whole chapter dedicated to raising an intuitive eater . There's even a new book out called Raising an Intuitive Eater . It's a derivative of our work that goes even deeper into parenting and so on . So I'm happy to say there's a lot of really good resources on this .

or does my body really want it ? And what else goes into the thinking behind intuitive eating ?

It's kind of an easy question , but if you've been dieting all your life or been on different kinds of food programs in which their influencers are telling you what to eat , when to eat , how to eat , it can really seem like a very far off idea .

And yet , even though it's like the fifth principle of intuitive eating , i often start patience at that point because it's curious , it's pleasure-based and it's personal . I can't tell you what's satisfying for you versus what's satisfying for me . We can talk about what might make that .

You know the case in terms of texture , temperature , these kinds of things , but you know , another thing we can consider is what else impacts satisfaction besides the foods we're eating . Well , let's think about our environment .

So , for a little thought experiment , think about maybe your most favorite meal , your most favorite meal , and you get to have it with a significant other and you can't wait to eat it . And this is about the food is being served , you and your partner get into a horrible , intense fight . Do you think that that meal is going to be satisfying , you know ?

so there's all these things that go into play with this , and so if we go back to the parent-child feeding relationship , if there's a lot of pressure on the kids to eat a certain way , that creates anxiety at the table , and the table is a time to connect with your kids .

You know , as they get older , there's a lot of good research showing that actually having family meals together to the degree that you can you have to be perfect about this It really bodes well in terms of how kids end up doing overall in life and getting less into trouble and these kinds of things .

And where's the limit when it comes to intuitive eating And how can we teach this to our kids if we notice that they're struggling with it ?

I'll never forget this My son , who's now an adult . When he was two , i just remember this meal so well because we were temporarily living in an apartment and it was very small quarters . I thought I'm going to make a really good meal And I made lasagna and all the sides to go with it .

And I made my favorite dessert , a carrot cake , and serve everyone the same amount of food . And my son finishes his carrot cake and he says more , mommy , and I got to tell you . At that time the mommy and me was thinking dude , that's enough .

But then the intuitive , eater scientist part came out and just said you know , let's let him do what he's going to do . So I sliced him another piece the exact same size , and do you know , he ate one bite , i'm done . And he ran off and played , you know . So in my mind I have this story because he's asking more .

He's going to have , you know , two whole pieces , and so what happens is , if food stays really exciting , the kid becomes over preoccupied and over focused on it , you know . So that's where the challenge is .

And so , in terms of looking at some , you know loving boundaries and guidelines , you know having you know as a parent , you get to decide what what's going to constitute a meal . You get to decide what constitutes the snack And then the . That's .

That's the role of the parent , and the role and the job of the kid is to decide how much of that they're going to eat . So you get to decide , you know what's there , and so that can help in terms of setting some of these parameters .

But if the food is sometimes revered as extra special and only really just sometimes , maybe if mom or dad is in the mood that keeps it really exciting . And there's this , really this interesting phenomenon called habituation And that's been studied in a lot of different areas . And habituation is about novelty and that when something is new it's pretty exciting .

But after exposure over and over again , the excitement goes away , and the best description I ever heard of this was from a scientist in habituation , talking about falling in love , and imagine , you know , the first time you were falling in love , maybe with a significant other , just a first , or your first crush , and that person says I love you for the first

time to you , and you are floating , it's amazing , and the world has stopped and rainbows and butterflies and unicorns are all over the place . So , and now , imagine , five years later , you're in a committed relationship . That same person says I love you and it's nice , but it doesn't have the same ecstasy kind of feeling .

And so habituation has been studied in many different situations , including foods , and it has been shown that when you're exposed to a food over and over again , it's not a big deal . You'll still like it , but the excitement is what's different , and the challenge is , if someone has been chronically on diets and food restriction plans , the food stays exciting .

And then , when someone goes off a diet , they often will eat more of those foods they weren't allowed to have . And now they're like , oh , i've got my own evidence , i need more rules . And the food stays exciting .

And so where the answer lies in this is in our principle of making peace with food , which is based on habituation , is also based on the research of L L Birch the parent child feeding relationship , showing that if you keep things forbidden , it becomes something that becomes people become more preoccupied on , and so we want to make foods kind of emotionally

equivalent from that perspective And so it can be a really fun principle to work with . Sometimes , parents , when they've had very strict rules around eating , that might make them feel uncomfortable in the beginning , but when you watch what ends up happening with your kids' eating , it can actually be quite delightful in that way . But it takes a while .

The parents need to wrap their mind around this in terms of recognizing , looking at the big picture , how important mental health is . You know that we talk a lot about physical health , but mental health is just as important as that .

You know , body mind are not inseparable , and if we're constantly having anxiety about what we're eating , every single morsel , that doesn't have a good impact on our mental health . And then if you start looking at something called allostatic load , allostatic load is basically the amount of stress that's put on the body And it affects all of our systems .

And you know there's an extra release of cortisol When allostatic load is high . It doesn't bode well in terms of for health and those kinds of things . And so part of this making peace with food but having ease with your eating , having ease with your body And right now in our culture there's this .

It's almost as if this , there's this idea that you're one bite away from disaster , that this food's either going to kill you or cure you . And there was a study that was done by Paul Rosen over 20 years ago , and in his study he looked at four different countries and their attitudes and relationships to food .

What they found is that the French cared they cared the least about health and cared the most about quality of their eating . To no surprise , they enjoyed their eating the most . The Americans enjoyed their eating the least and worried about their health . The most Interesting That was 20 years ago Yeah , over 20 years ago .

When he was writing this he was saying we think so much about food curing us or contributing to disease . We haven't really looked at what are the impact of the stress about the worry of these kinds of things . Then we can get into the weeds in the science . So many studies that are reported in the news are basically studies about association and not causation .

Then all of a sudden it becomes a rule don't eat this food or make sure you have this food , when actually it's not that hard and fast as sometimes people are led to believe based on what you're reading and nutrition is a relatively new science .

Everything we're basically talking about It does fall within our emotional or mental health and it has an impact on us . That's what's interesting to me that we are talking about food and eating , but there's a big part of this that is our emotional and mental health .

So I think about people who do struggle with emotional eating , and I've struggled with this myself . How do we get out of that ? if we do want to maybe reconnect with our body and its needs when it comes to eating ? How do we make our way towards intuitive eating ?

The principle before it was cope with your emotions without food , without using food , and what's still at the heart of the principle is having a diverse way of coping . That's the bottom line . However , it does no good to pathologize emotional eating .

If you think about it , emotional eating is part of normal life , pleasure is part of normal life , and so pathologizing that is really really problematic . So I want to make sure that we're not doing that .

But what's really at the heart of this is having diverse ways of coping and figuring out what your needs are , what you know when something is going on , what is it that I'm feeling right now And what do I need right now ? that's related to that feeling And that sounds like really basic kinds of questions , but it's really amazing .

If you've been somebody who's been very as a parent , very other focused about getting everyone else's needs met at the expense of yours , you might not even have a sense of what that is , and so part of it just begins a little bit with this self-reflection And , depending on you know , how often this is going on or how distressing it is , it might be helpful to

work with you know , a health professional , you know . Are we looking at some occasional coping Or is this something that we're looking into , a diagnostic category of binge eating disorder in which it's happening , you know , for over three months , at least once a week , and so on ? And sometimes what people might perceive as a binge is actually not even a binge .

They're unhappy or disappointed with their food choice , but it doesn't mean that it's an all-in-out binge . And so there's ways of working with this .

And I think about the roomy poet , about the house guest , and the house guest is about the emotions And he's like invite the men , give them a cup of tea , and so so many times our tendency is to want to avoid and ignore the feeling , but what ends up happening is it tends to grow .

We can certainly temporarily , you know , distract ourselves from feelings , but at some point it needs to be dealt with , you know . And so it's looking at what those things are . And then where it gets really tricky is if you have rigid rules around eating , if you have been restricting your eating , your energy intake .

You know , when you're not getting enough to eat , our body is wired to survive a famine And as a cause , and famines have existed ever since people have been on this earth . And so we are still wired to survive a famine , even though there's , you know , grocery stores open 24-7 around the corner .

And so what happens is , when you're not getting enough to eat , even though it's intentional , your body is like , oh my gosh , we've got a gear up here . And so what happens is you've had all this restraint around your eating and something comes along .

It can be an emotion , it can be powerful hunger we call it primal hunger and then all restraint is broken And all of a sudden , there's a research . A researcher calls it what the hell effect . It's also known as the restraint theory .

And when she said what the hell effect oh my God , that's you're talking about my patients , and that's when there's also this mindset of all or none eating , i blew it . So I might as well eat all of the things And since I'm never , ever going to have it again , i might as well get it now , while I can and before I change my mind .

So it can get really complex . And if we can do it for just a minute , i just want to emphasize the importance of biology here . That's so underestimated . You know I love to surf , so I'm always playing in the waves And it is well known .

You have a big set comes , you go under , you hold your breath and you come back up and you hope there's not another wave coming crashing down on you . And sometimes you have to wait a little longer than what you want And so finally , when you finally get to breathe , that's not this polite inhale , that's this big gasp for air , this big gasp for life .

And no one is saying oh my God , you are out of control with your breathing . You have a breathing problem . Everybody knows it's a natural compensatory response of air restriction , oxygen restriction .

And we need to have that same perspective when it comes to food , that if you have been consistently under eating for whatever reason let's just think had a chaotic day You know you had lunch at 11 , you're planning to have dinner but get pulled into a meeting And then by the time you get home you are in that place of primal hunger .

Primal hunger is intense , it's urgent . It tends not to feel good . There's nothing wrong with you . That's actually your body working . So now let's combine this . You have rigid rules , you've got this primal hunger and you've got some unpleasant emotions They don't have to be unpleasant , but often they are that becomes really , really powerful .

So it's looking at okay , how am I doing consistently at nourishing my body ? We don't have to be perfect , is it pretty good in general ? And how about on this day ? I might not be intentionally restricting , but we're human . We can have days where it's like , oh my gosh , i forgot I didn't have a meal or I went too long without eating .

And how is my mindset in terms of flexibility ? Am I very rigid ? Do I have this all or none thinking , or do my thoughts go into what I call the toilet vortex , where it just sucks you into this negativity and now you're feeling even worse on top of everything else .

And so it's kind of sorting through all of that and that you're not a bad or good person based on what you ate . And ultimately , looking at , what can I learn from this experience ? And if I was given this same set of conditions , what might I do differently next time ?

Just looking at that , and I find , if we can find a wisdom component to our suffering that helps us to let go and move on and move through it in a different way next time .

Yeah , have that relationship with food and I think it'll come a little bit more easily when it comes to teaching our kids How to build the relationship with food as well , right ?

What we do as parents is more part of , more powerful than anything that we say , you know , and so having this ease of eating is a beautiful gift You can be giving your , your family and and it starts with you and you know no worries , if you have this fraught relationship , it's all workable , but it does take some unlearning , you know , and working through all

of these things .

There was a 2010 study that looked at 365 teens and 45% of them were encouraged by their parents to diet and 58% of them were weight-shamed by their parents as well . So those are big numbers and scary numbers too , because They're still learning what the relationship is with food and how to build that relationship .

If a parent is bringing in as you've mentioned a few times now their own relationship , perhaps you know Self-image or self , you know their body images and now they're a parent and they're trying to . They don't want their child to experience , maybe , what they're experiencing or have the relationship they have with food .

How do we kind of work through that to make sure that we create this safe environment for our kids when it comes to food ?

You know what are the values you want to transmit in in your family , and so one of the one couple of ones I'd like to encourage is something around the idea that human beings are sacred , our bodies are sacred , and so because of that Belief and value , we don't gossip about about bodies , we don't criticize bodies and we don't compliment them , because that that

also sets that into place is body High-arcing , that some bodies are worthy and some are not , and the same thing with me .

Home is where the kids being weight-shamed and Encouraged to diet . And when you look at the studies on teens and dieting , the statistics are quite profound that dieting is one of the most single , biggest predictor of getting an eating disorder .

And there's this famous study It's a very long study , long to tunnel study perspective , rather And your long study on preteens .

They fall in from age 11 to age 21 , so there are two thousand teens that they followed and what they were looking at is dieting and weight suppression behaviors , and what they found it's not this innocuous phase or behavior that if teens are involved in these kinds of things , it actually escalates and carries through with them through Young adulthood .

And now they're on the third decade of the study . It's called project eat , and so we see the escalation of eating disorders . We see a lot , a lot of problems with this , and so dieting is , is not the solution . That's part of the problem , that's part of suffering , and we don't want to have that , that suffering .

And when you look at Bullying and weight teasing , it's one of the key risk factors , also in terms of eating disorders . In terms of those Starting , it's really , really problematic . So we need to start at home . And for those listening , if anything I'm saying is is upsetting to you , then I'd say you know , maybe it's time to just to take .

Take a look at this , and I'm not trying to shame any parent But to look at what kind of environment do we need in order for our teen to thrive ? and these kids aren't going to be home for very long , you know , and teens are going to do what they want to do Outside the house . They they've got ways . I've been humbled working with teens as well .

I love working with teens , and they're going to be on there on their own at some point . We want to create , you know , autonomy and not this self-doubt and and so forth .

They're restricting their eating and the counselor is trying to get them to eat and find ways to have more conversations around health and food And why it's important , but they're all restricting And they're afraid of , you know , eating disorders . If , if , perhaps there are . I know that there are teachers that listen to this and and clinicians as well .

Do you have advice for them ? if this is the case for a child They're working with , or even a teacher who notices something within their classroom with a specific student , of restricting ?

most schools will say , oh , no , tolerance on bullying , and yet many times , bullying around weight and teasing Slides . I'd be looking at that in terms of what , what kind of environment are we also Cultivating ? are we , are we nurturing and nourishing these young minds and bodies , or are we adding , you know , more , more stress to this ?

It's , i would say , by the time someone starts noticing these kinds of behaviors , it's been happening for a longer period of time , usually you know . So it's , it's , it's critical .

Um , i I just want to talk about grandparents , because we talked about creating that safe space in the home and grandparents might not , or family members might not have the same view . So even if we are trying to raise an intuitive eater , um , and doing it ourselves , uh , we might have people that criticize their child's weight . We might .

You said praise , and I'm so happy you said that because it's it's really kind of ignored as if it's nothing . But my daughter , you know , has been told by family members wow , you're so thin . She's seven years old .

She had no idea of that concept And I think of another study , which was an earlier study in 2006 , that shows that , by age of six , girls are already having already have the idea or the concept in their mind of being wanting to be thinner . Um , so I really do think we have to be aware of that .

How can do you have any advice for parents who are trying to implement this kind of environment ? in their home , yeah , and , and , and what they can do to us . I guess I don't know what the word is right ? Well , i'll tell you what the word is .

And here's what respect looks like not commenting on bodies , not complimenting on bodies , not talking about bodies under the guise of being concerned and worried in those kinds of things , and not criticizing food choices . And you know it's so interesting to me .

Over the years I've had some parents I've worked with that that don't want to have this conversation with their parents , but it has an impact on the kids And so sometimes they say you know what ? grandma , grandpa , don't get a pass . You know this . When you have loved ones doing the weight , teasing and comments , that is more toxic than someone at school .

It's not great for someone at school doing it , but , like coming from the family , it has more of an impact . And so I have found that to get by and you explain what you want , but they don't have to agree with it . It's just any think about your parenting values , what you value .

You know maybe what time your kids go to bed using electrical devices , you know using , you know , cell phones and all these screens , screens , thank you . Electrical devices . I'm like , oh way back in the day .

Parents have different values And your own parents or the grandparents may not agree , but you're allowed to have that , to raise the family in the way that you think is right and makes sense for you .

So that's what I would encourage you to do is have conversations and to really set it up to have the conversations not during a tense time , not when grandma just made a comment , when it's a calm time , you know , and any of these boundary talks .

What I usually suggest is you know , send me a pretty good relationship , you know , saying something truthful that you appreciate about the relationship . Gosh , mom , i really appreciate all the help you've done , whatever happens to be , name it what it is . But there's a concern I have and I want to talk to you And I want to see if I can get some support .

And you know what really . You know culture is so toxic when it comes to bodies And I don't want my kids to suffer the way I've suffered . You don't know how I've suffered in terms of how I feel about my body and my eating .

I don't want to pass this on to kids And what this would look like and again you name what it would look like not making comments on food choices , bodies gossiping about celebrities and influencers , bodies and these kinds of things . They what they do on their own times , their own business , but not in front of the kids , that kind of idea .

And oh , oh , here's the important part of this conversation . If the parents , grandparents agree and say , yes , of course I'll support you . What's really important in that calm conversation is having the conversation . And what are you going to do if they forget ? Because if they , if they wouldn't have it and make it a comment , they're going to forget .

We have habit of mind , it happens , and so it doesn't have to be a big thing . But how did that conversation gosh , mom , if you forget , what's a polite way I can remind you , and it could be anything like stop , hey , remember the combo . And because you've had the conversation , it's not a big dissertation and people aren't getting all mad .

It's like training a puppy . You know , if parents have been in the habit of doing this , it's they're going to , they're going to fumble , even when they say , oh , yeah , of course I'll support you . They're going to forget , and not so not personalizing it , you just remind them like you would do . A puppy , a puppy , a city .

Remember , we're not going to go in there , but we're not going to , you know , and if you're not , we will forever think of our parents now this way . If you're not prepared to reinforce the boundary , then my suggestion is wait until you are , because otherwise you can have the talk . but if it's not reinforced it it it makes it really really incredibly wobbly .

So that's , that's my suggestion .

what would be some dos and don'ts that you can offer parents right now that are listening , in terms of intuitive eating within their homes that they can follow , something simple enough that they can start tomorrow ?

There's actually been research on this . That actually makes vegetable consumption way to even even less , because they're kind of saying this thing is so nasty , you have to be rewarded in order to eat it .

No , yeah , yeah , that's probably one of the biggest things And I'd be looking at what can we do to make the table time , the meal time , pleasant , you know , and looking at what happens at your , at your time , when you get together , if there's , if there's a lot of fights or there are a lot of like inquisitions about homework and things done , and what I

would encourage you to do . Yes , we need to have those conversations with our kids , but do they have to happen at meal time ? Can we have meal time be kind of the sacred space ? That's what I would be looking at in in in a nutshell .

I'm so sorry . Yes , it's Evelyn Srimley .

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