How to Help an Addict Without Tough Love | Master Counselor's Family Guide

So people lose too much. It's really hard to bring them back from. But when you can be a positive influence to the person, you get this person to see you as a trusted source. They trust you. They feel like you understand them, that the problem with addiction is that we lie to ourselves. Boundaries are for you, they're not for them. What if everything you've been told about helping someone with addiction is completely backwards? That waiting for rock bottom isn't just wrong, it's

dangerous. That tough Love Actually makes things worse. And that the ideal you're powerless is the biggest lie of all. Today's guest, master addiction counselor Amber Hollingsworth, has built a movement challenging these very ideas. She's teaching families how to stop digging themselves into a deeper hole and start using strategy to outsmart addiction. So whether you're in recovery yourself or loving someone who is, get ready to take your power back. Thank you. Appreciate.

Amber. Thank you for being on the podcast today. Thanks. I know I need music or something. We put the music on. We kind of do this cool intro and all that stuff afterwards when they edit everything. Yeah, it's cool that way. I want to kind of get into these Mythbusters. I know on your YouTube channel, and I encourage everybody to. What's your YouTube?

Channel it's called. Put the shovel down. No need to keep digging, no need to lose everything. You can be dumb as soon as you're done. Oh that's good, someone said to me today. They sent me a message said I always thought that meant put the shovel down. I said quit hitting your loved one over the head with the shovel. Oh, that's wild. Yeah, that that's crazy. I want to get into a little bit, if you don't mind.

They have to hit rock bottom. I kind of want to stay there because that seems to be everybody I talked to has that in the back of their head conversation. And I know you say that it's not just wrong, but it's dangerous. What's waiting for rock bottom? One of the worst pieces. Advice you can give a family. The I think it goes back to just the very nature of addiction. The definition is continues the behavior despite the consequence.

That's the mere definition. So people live on the streets, they lose their children, they lose their freedom, they lose their dignity, they lose their jobs, they lose their spouses, and they still keep doing it. So this let me just wait until they suffer enough. It's not quite the answer, but this whole bottom thing, in my experience, if people lose too much, it's really hard to bring them back from.

For example, if they've already lived on the street for a while, they get used to it and then they're fine. And then what do you have? You don't have any leverage anymore. Because if they haven't done it for that, the idea of that might be scary, but once they've crossed that line, they get comfortable with it. Yeah, I know. One of the things that like, like when you're dealing and working with families, what do

you do? So let's say I have a close friend of mine, she, her daughter is a meth addict, bounces in and out of different guys, houses and all that do then is that if they're an adult, you know, OK, they're 2220325I should just let them. They'll come to me whenever I need to set the standard. How do you start talking to the

moms and the dads out there? And when I say if they're homeless, like that can be worse, but that's not me saying that you should let them live in your house. Of course. Like I'm not saying that. I'm just saying it's a misnomer to think if I tell my husband I'm going to leave, he's going to stop drinking. If I tell my kid, it just doesn't work. As far as that goes. In my mind, it's influencing someone to change. There's two pieces to it.

One of those pieces is consequences that they do have to get uncomfortable. They don't have to hit bottom. Hopefully they don't lose everything. It's got to 'cause them to be in distress to some degree. So allowing consequences is the first thing. And where families get that piece confused is they confuse punishment with consequences. Does the opposite. And the way I define that is anything that you dole out is punishment, or at least that's the way it's going to be

perceived by the other person. When the universe dolls it out, it's a consequence. Somebody gets intoxicated and they do really embarrassing things. The feeling embarrassed about it is the consequence. That's the thing that's going to get their attention. If somebody gets really intoxicated and they do something really embarrassing and you wake them up the next day and you start yelling at them and telling them everything they did embarrassing, you're yelling at them.

Being mad at them is a punishment, right? Then they're they get preoccupied with you being the problem and to let the world let the uncomfortableness come in, which is the opposite of what most families want to do. Most families want to fix all the big bad things out in the world that are the messes the person's causing, pay for the lawyers and all the things. And then they're mad at the person in the context of the relationship, which is the

opposite. And I try to get people to do the opposite formula, let those natural consequences fall. And then the other piece of the formula other than the consequences is gaining influence with the person. So when you can be a positive influence to the person, you get this person to see you as a trusted source, that they trust you, they feel like you understand them. They'll go to you when they experience these consequences. Now you have influence. See the pushing.

When you play your cards, you can do the influencing, which is pulling. So it's like a push pull and now you can lead them there much faster. Even as like a parent, let's say a mom or a dad or whatever, you're almost like looking at them. Obviously you love your kid, but you're looking at him and I need to pay the rent. I need to help him with they don't have any transportation. You're saying let those

consequences happen. If you have to take the bus, then so be it. You if you have to be, if you're going to be now when it comes to being homeless and stuff like that, because there's always that. I'll talk to families all the time. They're like, I haven't seen so and so in two months or a month or whatever. How do you handle that? Like how do you go into the homeless part because you mentioned that earlier. I have this whole like thing, I

call it a motivation matrix. It's easy to show visually, but when the consequences are really high but the influence is really low, one of the things you get is they person just gives into it. They just give up. They can just almost take it on as an identity and see it as their destiny. That's just who they are. I'm just a drug addict, I'm just an alcoholic and they just give into it. It really is this meeting spot influence that that gives you any kind of power to pull a

person in the right direction. And as far as paying rents and stuff like that, I'm not nearly as hardcore on that as most addiction counselors are. I personally feel like the most enabling thing you can do is play the bad guy role. Let me assume that if if I go and give my kid or cousin or whoever $20, yeah, they might go out there and do whatever with that. And they may use and whatever

they're going to do, you cannot get around that. And they may use they, they may buy out a little bit and use one time, they'll build a resentment against you. And they'll access that memory for the next 20 years. And they will use that as the emotional justification. They keep doing what they're doing. They will use that over and over again. No, that makes sense. And this is the question I

really wanted to ask you. And what I was really excited to have you on is we have this idea of you're either not using or you're using, period. There's no in between. There's no levels to this, you know, And I know there's high functioning addicts, especially with alcohol, like you can talk to people all the time. Oh yeah, those are the ones. I'm trying to get them put that shovel down before they lose

everything. So how does that work as far as if you're high functioning, if you're a successful person that seems like they have it all together, but they're drinking at night when they get home. I talked to somebody the other day. She was like, I drink 2 bottles of wine a night, 7 nights, seven days a week. So that's still high functioning. But how do you make a realization like, hey, this isn't working out, you're screwing things up?

I mean, most people deep down inside, they dislike something about it, usually a lot of things about it. They feel uncomfortable inside about it. They feel shameful, they feel guilty. They make promise to themselves, they break it. They know they're not being their best self, wife, mother, employee, whatever. And they naturally feel terrible about that. That feeling is the consequence. It's really going to get someone to change that feeling of I

don't, I'm not proud of myself. And so when it seems like there's not enough consequences outwardly, there's so many more that people are very reluctant to talk about and admit. And the last person they're going to admit it to is their family member because they don't want the family member to jump on top of it. And they don't want to be if they're not ready to give it up, they don't want to be like pressed into the corner faster than they want. So I just remind families it's in there.

Most of the people I see are successful business people, doctors, lawyers, they're smart people, but and if you get enough trust with them, they'll let you see that part. And inside there's a lot of things maybe they like something about what they're doing, but there's a lot they don't like. And when you can build your influence card and your credibility, I call those the seeds of change. You can pull those forward. You can nurture them and water

them. And then you're pulling their motivation from them for them that wants to change and you're nurturing it and you're playing on that card. Like for somebody talked to a guy recently who is a very successful person and he's clearly an alcoholic, though. And he's like, I'm not going to stop. I don't want to stop. And he finally at the end of our session, said we'll probably need to cut back. And he set these little rules for himself.

And I was like, why does your wife thinks from whatever? And he said, I'm nasty when I'm drinking. So I was with some people. Get that. Yeah, I hear you. And I say, and you know what? I have only known you not very long now, and I know that being a nice, fun, enjoyable person is really important to you. Look how you are at work. Look at how these people love you and these. I could see it in his face. See him be like, yeah, you're right.

I was like, that's really against your value system. That's not who you are at all. And that's what I mean when you, when you find that seed and you're like, that's it. And then you water it. You don't say, yeah, you're being a big ugly jerk. No, that doesn't worry. You say, yeah, that's not who you are at all. Yes. And then you're pulling that forward and you can literally watch their face.

Yeah, it's so interesting because we have like business meetings sometimes and we'll have highly successful different types of people and they'll come together and we'll meet at a restaurant or whatever, a patio, something nice. And it's so interesting because it's not the drinking obviously is the problem, but it's what's happening. They drink too much now, even though they're married, they're flirting with the waitress now. I get her number because of the

alcohol. They wouldn't have done that if it wasn't for that. Or they order a bunch of food and they're £100 overweight. It's like your ambition, like everything starts to go away and then you're causing mass amounts of trauma not just to yourself but to those around you. That's right. And deep down that's the thing that really bothers people and that feeling of just be mad at yourself or that not liking who you are or how it's making your

day. That's really the thing I think that ultimately it makes people change way more than like the the DUI or things because in our minds it's just so easy to rationalize or justify away some of those things. You know, they're just out to get people or so and so just turn me in because they have beef with me with this constant naggy feeling inside of. That and that's what you go after like. Oh yeah, I'll look for it.

And you have to do a lot of work to build enough trust with someone to get to see those pieces right. Yeah, it's interesting because I've asked friends of mine or people that I've talked to, it's like, what are the things that you don't like about yourself when you're in your addiction? But it's so interesting, the conversations that they begin to have. It's like you said, there's guilt and shame. That happens almost 100% of the time. People have reasons why they

want to stop. Even I call them like the cowboy

taps are like braggy about it. Especially if you have someone like that. If you just ask the question, if you say is there anything you don't like about it, they will immediately. I don't know whether they'll tell it to you. They'll probably tell it to you. But even if they don't tell it to you, they'll think of the answer. Still done your job as far as moving them and they're thinking along because your brain can't

help but answer the question. Yeah, I want to unpack that because it's interesting and I know you have a thing called the invisible intervention. So let's get into that. This is totally different than traditional confrontational type of intervention. Can you talk to the spouse or a parent who's terrified about causing a huge fight and how the small steps, invisible intervention, what they can do

today? All these things I'm talking about right now with the balancing of letting them get uncomfortable and the getting out of the bag of roll and filling influence in the invisible intervention. I'll just teach you that step by step. Like literally, I teach you the skills that I've been using for 20 years to get people to get honest with themselves and to find someone's motivators. And what do you do when you find it? And exactly what do you say?

A lot of it's like reflective listening skills and empathy statements. And how do I get someone's defensiveness down? It's the actual counseling skills that I use, which you don't have to have any how big degree. They're very basic. Anyone can do them. And so I teach people and say, listen, this what I'd do if they were sitting in front of me. Here's what I would say. Here's how to say it.

And then they start to build their influence with their loved 1. And it works so good, Jason, because here's how I know it works. When the families haven't been doing this and someone calls me because they have an addiction, their attitude will be I'm calling because my wife is making me and I agreed. Or she says we're going to let me see my kids or whatever and that's fine. I can deal with that because I've been dealing with that for 20 years.

So I can win that version over. But once people have been using the intervention, I know immediately because when their person calls and talks to me, they say I just got to quit. I keep on this pattern. I am like ruining myself. My poor wife, she has been an Angel. I can't believe I'm doing this. Like their readiness is on a whole another level. So when they come in, I hit the ground running. They're already coming in asking

for advice on how to change. So we just get the business, we figure it out. The other people, they come in and we spend 6 months of them complaining to me about their loved one. And the bad thing is the loved ones usually I'm paying and I'm like, Oh my gosh, I feel bad. This person's paying. They come complain to me about them. So it's I feel guilty about it. But yeah. Do you think? Because I know you have a video that's titled It's not Codispendency, It's Betrayal trauma.

And, and to me, and I encourage everybody to go to your YouTube channel and watch that video, but it's a, that's a profound shift. Can you break down the difference and explain why letting go of the codependent label it's critical, especially for like a spouse or a family member? Exactly right. I feel like evidence is just one of those labels.

Like narcissism lately just gets thrown out and it's just, and it's weird because I feel like everyone kind of has a different idea in their mind about some people. They use that word to mean people pleasing. I think codependent, there is a level of codependency and that when you're so scared and you're walking on egg shells and you're, you're thinking, I can't say or do this thing or that might set them off, that's a little bit of codependency.

But when you're having these huge like emotional reactions that you feel like you can't even control, that's probably a trauma symptom. And especially if you're a spouse or even if you're a parent, you, you live in fear and anxiety for so long and the lies and distrust and loss of dream about what you thought was going to happen that you end up with PTSD. And so, you know, like your loved ones 5 minutes late coming home because it was traffic, but

you don't know that. And they walk in the door and you just lose your cool on them and you're just melting down, just like a soldier who hears a loud noise, something reminded you of it. And then you get in that fight or flight response, it's very difficult. Yeah, no, that makes 100%. So do you work like as far as because there's always the when the emotions are running high, when there's almost that PTSD type feeling, there's a way that

you want to protect yourself. And so the conversation starts off all wrong, like you said. Next thing you know, the attic walks in the door from work. I hadn't drank yet. And then Jim or Susan or whoever's just go freaking out, yelling, and you did this to me and it makes it all about them and what how I'm feeling and what you're doing. And then it's 'cause I know there's a lot of manipulation. I know there's a lot of gaslighting. And did you talk about that being like an addict's best

friend? But for the person on the receiving end, it can make you feel like you're going crazy. How do you keep your saying? You do go crazy. It's making you crazy. So just there's that part of the reason why you do get so crazy is because of the gaslighting and because you're constantly being told that you're not seeing what you're seeing. And then you have this wrestling thing with yourself where you're like, I know I'm right.

And then maybe I'm not, Maybe I'm overreacting back and forth. And So what happens is then you get into this, I call it investigator mode, where your whole mission in life is to get the evidence and the truth and shove it in their face because you think then they'll have to admit it. You could shove evidence in their face all day long. It's just so counterproductive. It's like now you're invested in trying to make them admit that what you know is happening.

And So what I tell people is I say, listen, if you think it's happening, it's probably happening. But some like, you know, the line in the back of your hand and their energy's off. Like same way is like if you have a kid and they're sick, you just know, like when you live with someone sometime you just like you don't have to prove it. You don't have to get them to admit it. So some of these things, we validate their feelings, of

course. And I think that brings down the emotional because they feel seeing them. I'm like, no, you're not crazy. I mean, I'm sure you're right. And that DE escalates it right then and then teaching them some of these other things. But it's still hard to control, even when you know what to do and what not to do and all the right answers. Yeah, and it's hard not to be the bad guy like you talked about that earlier. And Speaking of that, like that role, how do you step out of the

role without becoming a doormat? Like how do you stop being because the addict's going to think you're the bad guy if you're trying to hold them responsible or you're investigating like you said, then automatically they're feeling like I'm on the defense and I'm doing something wrong. Yeah, and that addiction wants you to stay in that bag and roll. So once you're in it, even when you start getting out of it, it'll try to pull you back in it. It'll pick a fight with you.

It'll pitch out your old lettons. It wants you to stay in the villain role. You decide you're not going to be the dollar out of the consequences. Now you have to there's some boundaries you have to set for your own safety or the safety of other people in the house or your own emotional health. So you decide what the boundaries are as far as what you can do and not there for you, not for another person. They're they're about they're not like rules.

Boundaries and rules are two different things. And it's like consequences inventions like you, if you're setting boundaries because you think it's going to control their behavior, you're wrong. It's not right. If I find drugs in this house, someone's an addict, there's drugs in here. I don't care what you say, it's just not. It's just happening. Finding where you absolutely have to draw the line in the sand. And there are some, right? Like you should draw those lines in the sand.

But other than that, stop trying to control the use. Instead of doing this whole thing, like you said, you were only going to drink 3 and I'll count it and you drink 4 already wonders you won't let that roll. I'm going to get out. He's going to drink three. I know he's going to drink 10. I'm going, I'm going to sit back and let him because that's the only way that person is going to learn. It is not working for them to try to drink just three.

So we're not trying to slow it down. We're trying to fast track this mess. Don't help them keep it under control. Don't do that. And once you shift your mind, it just feels totally different. Yeah, exactly. And. Then the consequences hit, getting up in the morning to try to make it to work, all those different things I want to get into 'cause this one was really good. The sorry cycle.

And I know families get caught in this cycle of empty apologies and we don't know what to do because it's constantly I'm sorry, I'll change. I have a good friend. Her daughter was a teenager and used drugs till she passed away but here it's 151617 years old. But it was constantly I'm sorry mom, I'm sorry mom. I'll change but nothing ever really happens. How do you spot the difference between a real apology or just excuses over and over again?

There's a few ways. One is if someone's apologizing, or especially someone's promising to change because you've caught them doing something and you back them into a corner, then it's probably just a defensive stance, right? And I'm not saying they don't mean it all. Maybe it's somewhere in the Gray area, I don't know. But when someone brings it up themselves or comes to you with it, the likelihood that it's genuine is really high.

I know I can't keep doing this. I know it's putting you in a bad position. I know that this is not good for me. That's probably genuine. Now, that doesn't mean that they're going to be 100% successful at fixing at that point, but it does mean that in their mind, they're probably sincere and they're working and they're getting closer and closer to figuring it out. Yeah, we all know eating bad food is bad for us but yet we all a lot of us will still do it.

I know I do sometimes here I'm drinking even though it's sugar free. I'm drinking a 0 sugar mound Dew which is probably all chemicals. But we expect the addicts in our life to just stop it no matter the consequences. Like I know if I drawing I'm trying to drink the 0 sugar one but who knows what it's going to do to me but I still drink it. That's the same thing as addiction, same exact thing. Why do we have such high expectations for addicts? Well, I think they come from a place.

Ultimately we know if someone's addicted, they probably aren't going to bring it into a manageable level. He is not. But what's important for families to understand is that before people are going to completely give anything up, go sober, abstinent, whatever, they're going to have to go through this long phase of bargaining. It's a grief process. They don't want to give it up completely. They want to try all these bargains. Let me just do it on the weekends.

Let me do it every now and then. Let me set a financial limit on it. Let me drink beer and not liquor. Let me only drink after 6:00 at night, no more than three glasses of wine. All the things. And it makes you as the family member, so angry because you think they don't get it. They don't mean it. They're never going to stop.

They always say that. But if you understand that actually when they do, that's a step towards change and they're just figuring it out and right, you can speed up the process. You can't get someone to skip it. There's some things you can do to like, let's move it, let's try it, let's do it. Don't we mad if they say it and they don't do it and then you have empathy forum when it doesn't work, we're going to move through that faster.

They're going to have to try it a few times because they're like and do it right at a time. We try that again and then they're going to say, I just that just doesn't work for me. It always eventually it goes bad. They'll learn that. And if you just let it, they'll learn it faster. I've seen that over and over again where that realization hits us. I've tried about 20 different things and none of this works.

You got someone mark all, check all the boxes at lake and think of Yep. And hopefully quick. Let's try it. Let's do it, Yeah. So you're letting them do pretty much, let's speed this up. Let's let you do figure you're going to figure this shit out on your own because you mentioned boundaries. So the boundaries are for let's say the boundaries are for me

and I'm dealing with this attic. How do I hold the boundary without them feeling the blame or the guilt or me even having a victim mindset, which is harder not to not to be sitting there and thinking I'm a victim. I'm a victim. Look at him. He said he was going to drink 3. Now he's in his 10th beer and then he's feeling sorry for yourself. Do you have a script, a compassionate script or something when your boundary is

being attacked or you feel like it's being attacked? Sometimes, no matter what you do and how you say it, they're just not going to like it. Part of it is just understanding that they're not going to like the women. That's OK. Now I think it's important the way you say it, you convey it and the way you conduct yourself just for your own integrity and for your own sense of self. I want you to do it the right way.

So for example, like a boundary, a reasonable boundary that a lot of people have is if you come home and you're drunk and you're being nasty, then I'm just going to take down what's up. I'm just going to go in room and read or I'll just watch Netflix and I even tell people not even to announce it, just extend it back. Just let them in my face.

But a lot of times that person that's drinking or whatever, they'll notice that and they'll be like, oh, you never want to be with me when and they'll start a fight. No one likes a lemon and they may not like, but I still want you to conduct yourself with empathy and integrity and honestly have as few as you can get away with because you have to back up whatever you say. So if you can't back it up, then you can't have it as a boundary. You can't only have boundaries

for you. Then it's not a boundary. Like it can be a request, it can be a rule, but it's not a boundary if you aren't willing or ready to really back it up. Like the whole I'm going to throw you out thing. I'm like, do not say that unless you're ready to do it. And do not say that because you think it's going to make them stop, because they're not going to stop.

They're going to do more. And if you say you're going to do it and then you don't do it, then you're really going to be mad at yourself because you're going to be like, now I look like an idiot. Now you're mad at yourself because you don't hold to it. Yeah, and I feel like the having that compassion part, like you said, because even if you put yourself in their shoes, let's say it was an addiction.

Let's say you just had a really bad boss and you go to work all the time and it's really good pace. You deal with this bad boss, but he belittles you, He makes you feel like shit. He's constantly telling you you're doing these things wrong. That's the same thing you're doing to the addict. So instead of waiting for the fight cause some people can get addicted to the drama.

I talked to and they were like they were like I can stay in my ground and I'm ready when he comes home and he's been drinking to let him have it. And I'm like how often this happen 3 or 4 times a week. It's like insanity. Just a constant circle over and over again. Right is. That a boundary. Yes, as far as what works for the other person, you can alternate between being positive, which is using positive reinforcement, and neutral. Positive and neutral is the better formula.

When you get negative, it works against you. Whenever possible, go into that. Most they're doing a behavior you don't like, Just go neutral about it. Don't have anything, just ease away. Don't have anything about it. If they're doing something you do, call that out, reinforce it and say, oh, yesterday you were so great. I enjoyed our time together. Do you feel like, let's use that one? He comes home and he's arguing all the time, only when he drinks. He's nice when he doesn't drink.

But if he argues, would you have a conversation when he's sober to say, hey, here's the boundary that I have because I don't want us arguing. It's not good for you. It's not good for me, it's not good for our relationship. I love you. Would you have that type of a conversation with them when they're sober? I don't think it's always necessary to announce your boundaries, and sometimes announcing your boundaries is just picking a fight, honestly. Somehow if I announce it,

they're going to listen. They're really going to. Oh, come on. A lot of times it's just even better if you don't announce it because then when you do go into

the room, then they have to announce if it's a safety issue, like if I think you're drinking, I'm not going to let you drive the kids. But no, I don't think you need to announce every one of them. Boundaries are for you. They're not for them. So it's. Just K, I'm tired, have a good night, love you. And then go lay down in bed and watch Netflix this kid off and let them be there alone and do their thing.

I want to get into relapse. This is one of the things that Dwayne and I talked a lot about on our podcast because everybody relapse, but it's no one wants to talk about it. Right. You can't be perfect. No one can be perfect. It's part of the learning process. And family members reps too. Like you're doing the whole Amber method and then you lose your coal. It's all right, you relapse. We're going to call it back. What is the, how do you handle,

like, evidence of a relapse? So let's say he hasn't drank for two or three weeks and then you look in the trash and there's an empty bottle then. Or there was a text message you weren't supposed to see about him and his buddies going out drinking. What's the thing to do? Is it to like just ignore it? Because I know you talk about like the first 30 minutes after the discovery. It depends on where a person's at in their stages of change and where you're trying to get them to.

For example, if someone is still in some level of denial or they're still doing the bargaining thing and you're just going to let that play out because we're not going to get past that until they learn that. If someone's been sober and they've been in recovery, like really doing well and they had a slip, bringing that to the surface and making it known sometimes can stop the slip. Because if they feel like the sneaky thoughts just get in or she doesn't know, then sometimes

it will continue. And sometimes just having that little bit of accountability can help. I feel like you have to look at where someone's at in their stages and match your behavior to where they're at and what bring it up. Number one, I would say don't ask the question because they're going to allow you. They can't help, but it's a reflex, OK, It's just an immediate I didn't do it. We're going to be really how they like. So if you know it, say it it nicely and say it as I'm on your side.

You're out in trouble. If you found the empties in the bottle of the whatever, whatever you can say, hey, I just want you to know I saw these. I know you're really trying and you've been doing really good lately. I know you're going to figure this out room for them to comment because their initial reaction is going to be defensiveness. You cannot help it. Or if you call me out, even if I know I'm wrong, I'm going to plant the seed and walk off and let it settle in.

Their initial thoughts going to be, why are you going to the

chat? That's their first stop. And then if you don't, if you're not sitting there arguing back and forth with it, the rest will rise to the surface and their own stuff will kick in. So you sometimes don't trick them, don't trap them, don't do that. Yeah, this sounds like a mother mothering over someone.

What is the like as far as the relapse goes that that's a perfect way to handle it. But most people when they have a relapse, it's usually just a trigger of something, whether it's like a breakup they're going through or they lose their job and then that kind of triggers it.

How do you, if it's something like horrific that happened in the life without condoning, but obviously if it's your husband comes home because I had a really bad day at work, blah, blah, blah, and then you see the empty bottle the next morning, then you know there was a trigger. How do you handle that? Do you handle the same way or don't even bother with the trigger? Don't even think about it? But in the example you gave, if the husband comes on, he's had a really bad day.

And then the next day you see the evidence that I probably would gently bring that to the surface. And I'll say, hey, I want you to know I saw this because the we, I encourage people have addictions to be above forward things. But families need to be above board too because they're lying and sneaking just as not just this whole Tom and Jerry game. I'm like, you need to you can't be sneaking anything. So you can just say hi. Just want, you know, I saw it. I also know you you had a really

rough day yesterday. And if you just say it that way, if you say it with empathy, their thought will be in their head that saw it's a reaction. Like they'll have a better response to themselves than anything you could say. Yeah. What does that mean? And what is one kind of a habit or something that they can practice stop their old thinking from derailing their new life? I feel, and I think I was listening to one of your podcast recently, Jason, I can't remember the guest, but you guys

were talking about this. We can have these old narrative scripts, these assumptions that we decide about ourselves and sometimes our subconscious and would like, for example, if I think I never make it past six weeks, I hit this wall every time I get to six weeks. You don't even realize it, but you're subconsciously sabotaging yourself to set that up.

And so when you can recognize maybe that you're a lot of times you don't know that you're doing it to yourself, but you've convinced yourself that you always relapse, that you're never going to get it. I'm like, that's not hope. They'll say, oh, I could never win that. And I was like, you definitely can't with that thought. These scripts, it's important how to yourself. We decide things about ourselves sometimes when we're really young, sometimes we don't even reassess.

You stayed sober six weeks, That's what, 6, That's 35 days in a row. You knew how to do it. Clearly you do know how to do it. Clearly you can't do it. There's nothing magical about this day. And so helping people to confront those like irrational beliefs, negative assumptions, whatever you want to call it, can bring them to the surface and then people can sometimes override them.

Yeah, One of the things I think a lot of people will do, especially when it comes to setting a day or whatever, even in recovery systems that are out there, they have gifts they'll give you for the amount of days or whatever. Interesting that. I don't know if it's because we have birthdays or anniversaries. It's like the date becomes like this all important thing. I've been recovered for this many years or whatever it may be.

Do you feel like that is part of it or do you think it's good for someone to count days like if it helps them? It's good for some and not good for others. Some people really, they have the counter on their phone and they just get excited when they go up that for that same person who it's very helpful for, it can backfire on them if they have a slip because they'll immediately start thinking, I've screwed it all up at day one. Oh my gosh. And then they just feel defeated and hopeless.

And immediately the way I responded, and I'm like, no, if you had 153 days and you messed up today, I'm not going to give you 154, but tomorrow we're going to be on 154, OK? Like I said, you can't undo someone's recovery. You can't unlearn what you've learned. I sort of damage control it because the last thing you want someone to do is get in that hopeless, and it's that hopeless. So I move in and try to hit that head on. Do you have you ever seen it

like worth? You've been sober 8 months out of 12 months, so that's awesome. For the whole year that means you've been sober. He's been 240 days. Is it just like a reframing thing? It's a, it's a reframing thing. It's a how do I make meaning of what those days mean? And we make it mean something in the positive. We can make it mean something in

the negative. Then there's just a sort of other category of people that having a big number of days is a trigger for them to use because they're like, it's kind of like when you're on diet and you're like, I've been good all week, now have a cheat day. Is it once you open that gate with addiction, you can't close it back.

So the thought is the same or the thought sometimes is this is crazy, but people will stay sober for lengths at a time to prove to themselves that they're not an addict. So it's just a test the whole time and said, oh, alcoholic, they couldn't go 30 days without drinking. So I can still drink. So it's the meaning they're attaching to the day. No, that makes sense. And what do you think is up with like why is there such?

Is it just old school like this abstinence thing, like where you either are on the wagon or you're off the wagon? No, but recovery's not that way. It's messy. It's not. You're not going to have, like you said, they're going to be drinking wine, not Whitsky. They're going to be maybe trying weed instead of meth. There's there's all these different, like you said, messy ways. So why is there such a thing

with like abstinence? And I think that there's some validity to that because I think those of us have been around the block enough times. We know that it really only gets better when you completely in my heart in most situations. I'm an abstinence fan. I also understand the human element of allowing people their process and the trial and error and realizing that they're on their way of figuring it out when they're trying that. So do I think they need to get

all the way sober? Yeah, probably. Occasionally. They're figuring it out. Give people believe in people that they're they are smart and they will figure this out. Have you done any? I'm going to ask this because I think it's something that it's I've been finding with addicts, the more I've been talking with them and I found this in my own life. I have a food addiction. So that was my I handle alcohol. It's weird. I can handle alcohol, not a big deal. I don't like drinking because it

makes me not feel good. But when it comes to any trigger, I'm out like I'm 110% I'm going to get the 12 Taco packs. I'm going to go through three or four different cruise and on top of it, I'm going to make myself sick because I'm going to eat so much. The whole thing, ice cream. So I understand. Obviously mine's kind of mild. The worst thing it does is make

you throw up. At the same time, there's this whole idea of not feeling good enough. Why did I F this up again, you know, and then go to the diction like that. That's that's how I see it when I talk to addicts. Do you feel like it's a reprogramming of finding where do you feel like it's trauma based? Is it a childhood thing that they go through 'cause I have a story where I figured out that it was my childhood that caused the food addiction.

Do you do that with people? Do you try to figure out like what's caused the addiction? I I spend a lot of time with people trying to figure out what their triggers are. I don't believe that everyone who has an addiction has trauma. It's like this, if someone's addicted to nicotine, we don't think in our mind, oh, they must have childhood trauma. Wait, you smoke serious long enough, you want to have an addiction. And that's just the truth of addictive things like drink long enough.

If you put an addictive substance in your body long enough, you're going to develop a dependency on just the way it works. Like this is where our bodies are supposed to work. And so I don't think that everyone does have trauma. However, if you do have trauma, your level of uncomfortableness is much greater than other people's, and so the idea that you might be seeking some sort of self soothing increases the fact that you might grab on to

something faster. But I don't care if you've had it or not, if you put it in long enough, you're going to get a problem. Yeah, that's so cool because I was addicted to nicotine for a long time, the pouches and all that stuff, but I never thought, oh, this is the food. I found that it was because my family argued a lot and we would go to fast foods because we're extremely poor, but so that any type of trauma was always like my family would make up for it

with food. Trained you like behaviorally almost. Yeah, yeah, it was like a behavior. Thing anything bad food will make it better. And then our house was full of everything. We erased super poor so our house was full of box everything. Yeah, I relate to that. I lived off the sugar like when I see people and I talk to people, but that's so interesting. I never even thought about that. It's hey, these nicotine pouches there's you didn't mean you weren't beat when you were little kids.

You just happened to take them. That makes so much sense. Like for example, if you in the story that you just told, even if you took out the part about when bad things would happen, we'd go to McDonald's to feel better. Even if you took that out and just let the other pieces in which I grew up in a house like that too, you developed that sugar addiction. So you might not have been behaviorally think you still would have come out with

dependency. Yeah, I just noticed if I had went through a relationship and I broke up with a girlfriend or something, I would just binge eat. So I knew that there was like some connection. If I got really scared or nervous, I would just eat a bunch. So over and over again I could see that. That it's a pattern. Right. Yeah, I want to kind of get into it. I want to. We're closing up on the hour here. So I know you have an article that says you can overcome

addiction on your own. Now that's empowering to me. And we have, we've seen a lot of people that's happened. But you also run a coaching business for families. How do you reconcile those two things? And when is it right for a person to go it alone? And when is it critical for the family to get expert help? OK, I think it all depends on what you mean by alone, people that are reluctant to get help. But a big part of it is I can handle this. I can figure this out on my own.

And what I say is you're in luck because no one can help you do this in reality. Like when you have a medical condition, you go and a surgeon can fix it or you come out fixed. There is really no such thing like that. There is no other way an addiction. So it is going to you doing it alone no matter what. Now you can expedite the process by getting some people, some advisors on board.

Like for example, I could figure out how to build a house or something eventually and I could figure that out. Or I could just at least hire a consultant to tell me what the fastest way and then maybe help me avoid some pitfalls. It's not me saying don't get help. It's me saying, yeah, you're going to do as long because I can't do it for you. If I could, I would. We can't do it for someone else. It is you. And so a lot of it's just about confronting that thought.

If I can do it myself, the other reason why it's helpful to have and I don't, it doesn't matter. I mean, how you get these other people or they don't have to be sponsors. They can be counselors, coaches, friends, church leader, whatever you want them to be. But the problem with addiction is that we lie to ourselves. It's just, it's a defense mechanism of rationalization and justification.

And so I think it's important to tell someone that you're doing it because if you try to just like recover in secrecy, it's just really hard to hold your own self accountable because we trick ourselves. So I do think that it is important and helpful to have some other people on board. I just don't know that you have to go to treatment. I mean, you don't necessarily, sometimes you do, but you might not necessarily have to go to 90 days of treatment.

You may not necessarily have to go to 12 step. There's some sort of things I think you need to do to help, but I don't know that you have to do that whole full course thing. No, that makes sense. Yeah, that like having a coach. I never understood why it wasn't more prevalent. Having it, it would be so much easier. Let's say you're dealing with somebody like a high functioning alcoholic. It'd be so much easier to do Zoom calls when have a conversation. And then you could do it in the

privacy of your own home. Because next thing you know, you don't want to be like going to some meeting, which we encourage. Do whatever you need to do get covered. If meetings are great, that's awesome. If being a part of your program, that's awesome, whatever it may be. But I think at the end of the day, that realization had to come in my mind. I've talked to Dwayne. After years and years of him using drugs and alcohol, he had to have the epiphany that moment.

I'm not doing this anymore. Yeah, so it's getting a consultant and I deal a lot with real high functioning people who a lot of times don't want to go to treat any kind of group setting for a lot of some valid reasons, but they might be willing to talk to a coach privately, you know, and especially a coach first because you don't get a diagnosis. No one's going to merit like you.

There's just some ways that if you're a family member and you have a loved 1, like this might be a much more digestible option. You got to know your loved one and be like, are they going to worry about their reputation? Just like are they going to, they're going to knowing what options to to throw out there based on the person and when to throw them. I think it's so adorned too because I was in Somalia, Bosnia and hitting the Marine Corps. Saw a lot of shit so I got labeled BTSD.

The a living hell for me would be and I use the VA and they have like great and we do zoom calls and stuff like that. A living hell for me would be me sitting around a group with other veterans and them talking about their 20 years. I did this and I was involved in this and hope that I'm introverted too. So it's I don't want to meet new people. I don't want to sit around in a circle. I don't want to talk about this shit. So I get it like 100% if some

that way. And just because someone's that way doesn't mean that they don't want to change or they are not really. There's a legitimate just personality things, likes and dislikes, preferences, introvert extra. You got to take all that into consideration with people. Yeah, that's so good. Thank you for putting that out there.

I want to ask one last question. After 20 years in this field to help thousands of families, if you could permanently erase one single word or phrase from the entire vocabulary of addiction recovery, what would it be and why? Probably it would be the whole year powerless thing. Whether the addiction or the family member. There's so much you can do. I understand why they say it. While it's in the lingo, what they're really trying to say is you're not going to manage it well.

You're not going to find a valence. That's why they say it. But it gives the wrong impression sometimes. Amber, thank you for sharing so much wisdom and hope with us today. Thanks for having me, yeah. Yeah, and, and if anything talked about today resonated with you, I want you guys to find Amber on YouTube. I want all of my listeners to subscribe to her channel. And then also check out your Family Recovery Academy. Is that what it's called?

Do you have a website for that? That is our website. It's called Family Recovery Academy dot online. Oh, OK. YouTube is the best place to find me. Yeah. Whatever angry you're coming at it from, just put the show it's on. Yeah. Awesome. Perfect.