RAR #175: Is My Child Dyslexic?

Sarah (00:00): What do Henry Ford, Walt Disney, and Albert Einstein have in common? Let's add a few to the list. How about Hans Christian Anderson, the Wright brothers, and Steve Jobs? If you answered that they were all wildly successful people who had a tremendous impact on the world, you're right. But you're only half right. They were all also dyslexic, and they accomplished great things not despite their dyslexia, but at least in part because of it. What you think you know about dyslexia, in fact, may very well be wrong, so today, we're diving in. Is your child dyslexic? And if so, what does that mean and what should you do about it? All of this and more right here on the Read-Aloud Revival. (01:00): You're listening to the Read-Aloud Revival podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Mackenzie, homeschooling mama of six and author of The Read-Aloud Family and Teaching from Rest. As parents, we're overwhelmed with a lot to do. It feels like every child needs something different. The good news is, you are the best person to help your kids learn and grow, and home is the best place to fall in love with books. This podcast has been downloaded 7 million times in over 160 countries, so if you want to nurture warm relationships while also raising kids who love to read, you're in good company. We'll help your kids fall in love with books, and we'll help you fall in love with homeschooling. Let's get started. (01:51): Dyslexia. It's one of the things we're asked about most here at Read-Aloud Revival, and it's no wonder. Dr. Sally Shaywitz, co-director of the Yale Center for Dyslexia and Creativity, estimates that 80 to 90% of children who struggle with learning disorders have dyslexia. That's as many as one in five children. Also, dyslexia is highly genetic, which means if one of your kids struggles with dyslexia, it's pretty likely that another one may as well. Today, we're going to talk about the signs of dyslexia, how to spot it, and what to do if you're pretty sure your child is indeed dyslexic. (02:31): In order to do that, we're going to talk to someone who knows, so I called in Marianne Sunderland. And trust me, Marianne knows. Seven of her eight children are dyslexic, and she's become a passionate and educated advocate. She runs the website homeschoolingwithdyslexia.com and she authored the book I recommend you read first if you suspect dyslexia in your home. It's called Dyslexia 101 by Marianne Sunderland. We'll have a link to it in the show notes. There are a lot of misconceptions about what dyslexia is, so I asked Marianne to start our conversation by describing dyslexia to us so we have a better understanding right from the get-go. Marianne (03:16): There's a lot of misunderstandings about dyslexia, but at its core, it's inherited brain wiring difference that affects a person's language acquisition skills. So it's inherited, it's generic, it's caused by a difference in brain wiring, and the weakness that you see is difficulty with language. It could be with the written word, it could be hearing. It's processing delays or processing lags. In the 1990s, Sally Shaywitz and her team at Stanford, they did a test, or they did functional MRIs, on the brains of good readers and not-so-good readers, and they found that in the not-so-good readers, the impulse went from the eye with 20/20 vision. The good readers, it went straight to the reading center of the brain. But the not-so-good readers, the path was much more convoluted, and so they discovered then that it really was just a brain wiring difference. (04:16): But what's cool about dyslexia, and what they're finding out more and more now, is a lot of the strengths that are associated with ... On the flip side of that weakness where say they're not very detail oriented, they can also tend to be entrepreneurial or inventive engineering, like some of the famous names that you mentioned in the intro. This is a strength of dyslexia, and so it's kind of cool. Now people are starting to look at dyslexia ... yeah, it's tough when they're learning to read and write, but as they get older, they're all full of surprises. Sarah (04:47): Yeah. I mean, at least for me, for so long, I thought of dyslexia as a learning disorder, but it feels like what you're describing is more just of a learning difference. There's nothing wrong with a dyslexic brain. It's just wired differently than a non-dyslexic brain. Marianne (04:59): Yes. One of the myths about dyslexia is that it's just low IQ. Whenever you see someone who is not spelling well, your first instinct is, "Oh, well, they can't spell. They're not that smart," whatever. But actually, they almost always have average to above average intelligence, so it's not a true disability in the sense of the word. Sarah (05:18): Yeah, yeah. Which makes sense, because I think in your book, Dyslexia 101, that was one of the things you mentioned, was you have this bright child who can engage in conversation and otherwise you know is very bright, and yet they struggle so much with these language processing, which shows up as having a hard time maybe learning to read or struggling to spell or write, and so then that's sort of the red flag. What are the warning signs? What should we be watching for that could be an indication that our child might be dyslexic? Marianne (05:49): You can Google lists, and there's lists on my website, but essentially, you're going to see an otherwise bright child struggling to master just the concepts of reading. So they may have trouble remembering their sounds, just the basic sounds, especially vowels. Vowels can be ... especially I and E, short I and short E, those are very similar. So you'll see that. You'll always see difficulties with spelling. Now, a lot of kids struggle or they spell phonetically while they're young, but after a couple of years of instruction, they should be learning more how to remember sight words and so forth. So as a child gets older, you'll see reversals beyond first grade, so they're reversing their Bs and their Ds and their Ps and their Qs and lots of other things. (06:37): But some other things that you don't always recognize or you may not realize is things like tying shoes, very difficult for kids with dyslexia. Rhyming is a big one, so being able to pick words that rhyme is always difficult. Prepositions like up and down or yesterday and tomorrow, they have a really hard ... I mean, my 17 year old the other day got yesterday and tomorrow mixed up because she just wasn't thinking and it just kind of came out. So directions can be hard for them. (07:07): So there's lots of little things. Then when they're reading, you'll see them guessing a lot. So whereas a child with some phonics instruction is being taught to sound things out, they're kind of looking at the shape, they're using context, they're like, "Well, it starts with a P," and they kind of guess. They'll also skip small words in sentences, and you'll see things like a sight word like "the." They'll see it in a sentence and you'll say, "Well, that's the word 'the.'" Then on the next line when "the" comes up again, it's like they never saw it before. You're laughing- Sarah (07:40): I'm nodding. Our listeners can't see me nodding vigorously over here, but because when I first realized that one of our kids was dyslexic, and now I'm realizing ... I more recently have realized that several of our children are dyslexic. The first time I realized it and I was looking at this list of possible warning signs, and one of them said something about calendars and sequential time being a difficult thing to learn. I know with one of my kids ... I mean, I really thought, "This child will never, ever, ever learn the 12 months of the year. Never. It does not matter how many times we go over it." And then, of course, you're saying the vowel sounds, and I just had a reading lesson this morning, but I just thought, "Wow, okay, I just reread Dyslexia 101, so I am feeling very energized and optimistic." But otherwise, I would have gone, "Oh my goodness, I cannot believe we're still doing this." Marianne (08:31): Yeah, and it's a very common ... That's why it's so good to just ... Like you read the book and you're like, "Okay, these things are normal," because our kids are really trying hard. One of the pitfalls of a child with dyslexia being in school, like a traditional school setting, is that teachers really aren't trained to understand dyslexia. It's no fault of theirs. It's just how education is designed. But they're often misunderstood. They look lazy or like they're not trying or not paying attention, and the irony is, they're really trying harder than any other kid. They're really, really trying to remember, they're trying to focus. A lot of kids with dyslexia also have some kind of focus struggle, whether it's ADD or ADHD. Somewhere between 40 and 60% of kids with dyslexia will struggle with that, too. So it's so important to just understand and be gracious. We can talk more about that, but having homeschool eight kids to read now, and seven of them were dyslexic- Sarah (09:35): There's a special seat for you in Heaven, I think. Marianne (09:38): When my one non-dyslexic kid learned to read from Explode the Code, I seriously went in my room and just cried a little bit. I was like, "Oh my gosh." Sarah (09:47): Yeah. I hear other people say, "My child just taught themself how to read." That's what my mom says about me, in fact, and I don't remember learning how to read at all. And I thought maybe out of six I'd get one that could teach themselves how to read, but that didn't happen for me. Marianne (10:01): Right, yes. And so that's how a lot of kids learn to read. You just give them a little instruction, a reading-rich environment, read to them, right? And they learn to read. And I actually really thought ... I was hard on myself. I thought I was doing things wrong, and especially because my oldest was dyslexic and we had just started homeschooling, I got a lot of flack from well-meaning family, like, "Maybe you should put him in school." And it was like, "Maybe I should." But can I share a story? Sarah (10:32): Please, yes. Marianne (10:34): Okay, so when my oldest son was ten ... or was he nine? Nine or ten. We had four kids. We took a three-year sailing trip. So we rented out or house to some friends from church and we went sailing for three years, and it was funny because I really wanted to stay back and do reading tutoring. And my husband, who's dyslexic, was like, "Eh, I learned to read. He's fine." (10:57): I was like "okay!" But the people who rented our house had kids our kids' ages, and they went to the local public school. And lo and behold, their oldest daughter had dyslexia, and she was ridiculed in class. You would think ... I mean, we live in a fairly upper middle class, educated area, you know, but this teacher came in and would make her read in front of the class and then embarrass her and- Sarah (11:20): Oh, she was ridiculed by the teacher, not even by the students. Marianne (11:23): By the teacher. Yeah. Sarah (11:24): Wow. Yeah. Marianne (11:25): And so we came back and I still had that thought, because we were still trying to teach him to read while we were out there. But I was like, "Okay. Maybe schools don't have all the answers." It was like one little bit of info at a time to keep me on the path that we went on, and so now I'm here to say, "Hey, this is how it works." Sarah (12:05): I mean, every homeschool parent, I think, at one time or another goes, "Am I ruining my kids? Am I actually destroying their education by trying to do this myself?" First of all, that's such a normal feeling. We all feel that way, although we don't talk about it often enough, I think. We do tend to have that default of, "They would probably get a better education if it wasn't me teaching." So for you to have that experience where you found that actually, what you were able to give your son at home was better than he might have gotten at school ... very likely, in this situation ... is really encouraging, I think, for a lot of us to go, "Okay-" Marianne (12:39): It really was. It really gave me just enough strength to keep going, and I think that was ... We got back when he was 12 and he learned to read that year. We used the Great Illustrated Classics. Do you know what those are? You can get them off eBay and stuff, where they have big print and a picture on every other page. Someone said to me once, "I'm glad my kid was dyslexic," because they didn't read a bunch of junk. Sarah (13:02): That's right. They bypass a lot of the stuff you don't really want them to read. Marianne (13:07): Yeah. Because it takes them so long to read, they just ... They ... like, "My library is sufficient." They don't have to scour the library. Sarah (13:15): Yeah, yeah. In this episode, I'd love to just get into a few more nuts and bolts for people who are listening who think, "Wait a second. I think it's possible that one of my kids is dyslexic, or maybe more than one of my kids is dyslexic." And what I found ... First of all, listeners, I want to highly, highly recommend Marianne's book, Dyslexia 101. It's a quick read. I mean, I know as a busy mom, if I see a big old tome that's going to take me a long time to get through, I feel like it's one more thing to my to-do list. But I would suggest Dyslexia 101 as the first place you should go if you suspect dyslexia in your kids because it's quick, you can read it in an evening, it's practical, and it's encouraging. So whether or not you are thinking of your four year old, your eight year old, your 12 year old, or your 16 year old right now as we're talking, this book is going to have some tools for you, next steps, and some encouragement along the way. (14:10): And actually, that kind of leads me into my next question, Marianne, which is, do kids grow out of dyslexia? And can we talk about the genetic component for just a minute? Marianne (14:19): No, kids don't outgrow it, and they are not cured of it. So if you ever read something that says, "We'll cure your child of dyslexia," run, because it's not a matter of being cured. It's a matter of just being taught systematically how to read. Now, my oldest son, I didn't use any Orton-Gillingham or a dyslexia-approved curriculum. I used probably everything else, but I didn't use that because I didn't know it existed. But he learned to read, so all kids can learn to read. And then the genetic part of it is ... I don't know, I think it's dominant because of my eight kids, seven are dyslexic. And I'm dyslexic- Sarah (15:00): Yeah, yeah. And I think probably out of my six, I'm pretty confident that four are dyslexic. I know for sure that two are pretty strongly dyslexic. And maybe five. I'm not really sure. You mention this in your book, that there are varying ... Marianne (15:16): Degrees. Sarah (15:16): Degrees, thank you. I was looking for the word, couldn't find it. Varied degrees of dyslexia. Marianne (15:21): Yeah. A lot of people who are more mildly dyslexic will get by in school, but it's very difficult. And so those people tend to feel like they're stupid, like, "Why is it so easy for everybody else? It's hard for me." I have the whole range. I have a couple severely or profoundly dyslexic kids. One of them is 23 now and he's wildly successful. Took his college fund and invested it, started a business, you can't even keep up with the kid. He has such a vision. And you know the thing? Oh my goodness. All through school, he was so social and I kept being like, "Sit down. Pay attention. You have to write this essay. You have to compare Shakespeare to love and the Bible." That poor kid. Sarah (16:12): First borns. They're resilient because they have to be the guinea pigs for all of us, right? Marianne (16:16): Yes. I did a dyslexia simulation ... I have one on my website ... during my ... I was trained as a dyslexia tutor, and I did this simulation. We have an office school room and he was behind me in the office and I was crying and I just looked at him and I was like, "I am so sorry. I had no idea." Because he'd be bored and I'd be like, "Read a book," because that's what I used to do as a kid. And I didn't realize it's really hard for kids with dyslexia to read, and adults with dyslexia. They can learn to read. It doesn't go away. They probably will prefer things like audiobooks or podcasts or YouTube or things like that to learn, although some become avid readers. It just depends on the person. Sarah (17:02): Well, that's one of the gifts with audiobooks, I think. I mean, I tell this story often of my son when we would do quiet reading time in the afternoon and I would send all my kids to go read in their rooms. But he wasn't reading on his own yet, so he just devoured the Redwall series on audio. And what happens ... I've found this so often by talking to other parents, too, and I'm wondering if this is your experience, Marianne, that these kids who are later readers because they're dyslexic who have gotten a lot of audiobooks have all this really good language inside of them. They've heard all this good language, so once they start reading, it's not like it takes the same amount of time to get from Frog and Toad to Robinson Crusoe or whatever. There's a shorter line between those two things. Marianne (17:47): It's very true. I used to call it ... well, I still kind of call it ... middle school magic. It doesn't matter what you do with your kid. By middle school, they'll be reading. The penny drops. And I'm reading this book on unschooling and I'm thinking, "Have I been spinning my wheels this whole time? Should I have just waited until they were 12 and gone to the park?" But yes, so they catch up really quickly. My oldest, I mean, he excelled in English in high school, and that was the class I was the most worried about. But his vocabulary was off the charts because he would listen to books that I couldn't even follow, the Lord of the Rings series, and I was like, "Wait, who is that? What is that person? Where is that?" And he's just processing all of this information and building pictures in his head. Sarah (18:34): This is making me think because I think we put a lot of pressure on ourselves as homeschooling parents to give our kids everything they're going to need to succeed, like whether or not we do a good job or not is going to impact the trajectory of their life ... And to some degree, of course, that's true. But I was just thinking about this the other day because my oldest is a freshman in college. Actually, she's a sophomore now. She finished her freshman year a little early. We never really did a grammar program. Well, fast forward now, and here she is an English major with a concentration in editing and publishing. Even just when she graduated, she was still ... I'm sorry, Audrey. I'm totally telling on you in this episode, and you're going to hear it, I'm sure. (19:13): She was using commas like cupcake sprinkles, is what I always thought of it. She would write this beautiful essay, a really good essay, and then I think she would look at it and go, "Well, there should probably be some commas in here and I don't know how to use them. I don't know where they should go." So she'd kind of sprinkle them throughout. So the summer between her graduation and college, she did one of those really skinny workbook things that's just commas. I mean, I can't even remember what brand it was. It doesn't even matter. It was just one of those little workbooks that's like, "How to use commas." She did it in, I don't know, a week or something on her own, and now she can use commas and she's doing just fine. So it's one of those things where we kind of think we have to slave over all this curriculum for years and years and years to make sure our kids get it, and that's not always the case. Marianne (20:01): It's not at all. (20:23): I have seen something with ... So four of my kids are adults now, and my 22 year old, she's a senior in college, more mildly dyslexic, some ADD, and getting her to do math in high school was like ... I mean, I signed her up for a tutor and she'd come out of her room and be like, "I don't want to go. I didn't do my homework." And I was like, "You get in that car and you go to that tutor or you're paying for it." And she'd be like, "Oh, okay," and so off she went. I mean, it got that bad. It was just like, "Oh my goodness." Anyway, so she got through algebra in her senior year of high school and went on to college, and doesn't she decide to be a kinesiology major and she needs all this math. (21:10): But she was working at a physical therapist's office and she'd been involved in dance and sports and stuff, and so she'd really wanted to be a physical therapist and good grades were important because it's hard to get into the programs. That kid went through ... I think she took the placement test and needed to do it, algebra, again. So she took algebra and advanced algebra and trigonometry or something and pre-calc and statistics and aced them all. I was like, "Huh. That's interesting. Because I couldn't barely get you to do enough math to graduate from high school." But it was all motivation. It was all- Sarah (21:50): Internal motivation, right? Marianne (21:51): Yes. So- Sarah (21:51): Not anything you couldn't have done for her, actually. Marianne (21:54): No. I could not have. I've seen it in all of my adult kids. Just when they find their thing, they just take off. And so I have really been able to back off big time on my fear of not teaching commas or missing a period of history. My boys are like, "Medieval, medieval." I'm like, "We should really study US history." "No, medieval, medieval." But I don't worry anymore because, I mean ... I know this is sort of cliché, but if you raise your kids to like to learn, they're always going to be learning. And all of my adult kids, for all of my failures ... and there were many ... are lifelong learners. Sarah (22:32): Okay, so I think one of the fears that I have had, especially when I first had those first thoughts of, "I think maybe my kids, or a certain child, or any of my kids might be dyslexic," and I was worried that they wouldn't love reading, because of course, I want my kids to love reading. So how can dyslexia impact a child's love of reading as far as you can tell? Marianne (22:52): Well, really, it has nothing to do with reading. It has to do with their teacher. I was just reading ... I don't know, I read a lot, but I think it was in my unschooling book, this Unschooled by Kerry McDonald. She was talking about a boy in school and he's in, I don't know, second grade, and he's labeled behind and he's getting assignments and reading became kind of a chore and almost a punishment and, "You have to read before you can do anything fun." That's the surest way to get your kids to hate reading. And kids with dyslexia, they do really well with graphic novels and things like that. So in comes Dog Man, and I'm thinking, "Oh." They're cute, the little graphic novels, and I was just like, "Okay, well then we'll just hurry and get through that. We'll get through that phase really quickly and get on to the good stuff." And my 13 year old just said to me, "I don't know why you're making me read these chapter books. I just really like the graphic novels." (23:54): And I'm thinking, "Okay." You kind of project your worry onto your kids. And so how I have helped my kids to not feel that is to ... I do believe that it's important to use a good reading program, and I do believe it's important to start when they're school aged, maybe five, six, seven, whatever you choose to do, whatever suits your particular homeschool style. Use a program that works, an Orton-Gillingham program. It's all about reading and all about spelling. Barton, Logic of English, those three are really good. They're open and go, pretty much, so just do them consistently three times a week and make it fun. And if you have to review the same thing over and over again, just do it. They will learn to read, and so just not stressing about it is super, super important. (24:44): And then most dyslexic kids love a good story. So if you're reading ... I mean, even my older kids will come and sit in the living room. You've probably said this a thousand times, but they'll come out when I'm reading. "I remember ..." Like Redwall was a family favorite. They'll come out and listen. And so that's another way. I remember when one of my daughters ... she's 17 now. She's a writing type. She loves to write, very good with words. She started listening to series' of books from the library and I remember her just walking out of her room and being like ... The characters ... I can't remember the name of the series. It was these animals and... I don't know, if you mentioned it I would remember. But she was absolutely blown away at the characters and the plot twists and the ... oh. Sarah (25:30): Loving to actually physically read is very different from loving stories, what we really want our kids that love stories and can read, right? Marianne (25:37): Yeah. I have loads and loads of books all around the house that are readable, and I do require some quiet reading time but I don't really say what they have to read. They can do whatever they want. But it often ends up being longer because they get into whatever they're doing. But letting them follow their interests. I've heard of kids who are real into sports, so their parents would get magazines for them or something so that they could read the stats. But following interests is huge. Absolutely huge. (26:09): My second oldest daughter taught herself to read ... I had given her some instruction, but she was struggling. But she loved animals, and she was number two of many, so we'd go to the library and get all the books and come back home and I could read a little bit, but I didn't really have time to really dedicate to one kid's interests. It had to be history or science or something. But she would sit down with those books and she basically cracked the code of reading because she wanted the information. Sarah (26:41): And once again, we're back at that internal motivation, because she wanted to get it for herself. Marianne (26:46): Yeah. So I really, really encourage parents not to stress. Your kids will read. I'm not a full-on unschooler. I wouldn't really recommend not teaching them. I think it's important to have some instruction and that reading-rich environment and limited screen time and stuff like that. But yeah. Sarah (27:17): We'll get into a little bit more on the details of those Orton-Gillingham methods and why that works in our next episode, because listeners, I told you, I'm so interested in this topic and I know so many of you are interested, that we're doing two episodes on dyslexia. But I do want to just underline the programs she mentioned, because I know a lot of you are going to be going and looking for some. So All About Reading, Logic of English ... Those are the two that I've used, so those are the ones that stuck out to me, but Marianne, what was another? Marianne (27:45): Barton. Susan Barton's reading program. Sarah (27:47): Yes, excellent. And it's interesting, because the first time I thought, "I think I have a kid who's dyslexic. I don't think he's going to learn reading the same way that I expected him to learn to read," I had tried all these different reading programs and he was nine. Let me think. He was about nine. He might have been eight and a half or something when I moved over to All About Reading and didn't know that because it was Orton-Gillingham, or that it's especially good for dyslexic kids or anything. But that's the ... I mean, he was in the middle of All About Reading level three and he went from reading Frog and Toad to reading these really long novels in this really short amount of time, and I remember thinking, "This program is magic," and now I know why. Marianne (28:35): And now whenever anyone says that to me, I ask, "Well, how old were they?" Because remember the middle school magic. You have to be really careful because people will say, "Oh, I tried this vision therapy thing," which dyslexia is not vision based, it's processing. And now they're like, "Oh, I just couldn't believe it." And I'll say, "Well, how old were they?" "Oh, they were 12 or 13," and I'm like, "That was middle school magic. That wasn't the program." Sarah (29:00): So then I think what I might be hearing you say then is that there's a couple ingredients. You need to read aloud a lot so that your kids want to read, so they have that motivation to want to get good stories. They need a good systematic reading program that's good for dyslexic learners, that works with the way their brain is wired. And then they need time. They just need time. Marianne (29:17): They do, yeah. Also, if you have a child that is kind of aware of their ... like maybe a younger sibling is reading better than them, or Sunday school, they realize, "Oh my gosh, these other kids are reading and I can't," I really am a strong believer in acknowledging that they're dyslexic. I wrote a children's book on it as well because if you don't tell a kid that there's a reason why they're struggling, they're going to assume what everybody else is assuming, that they're not very smart, and that's a rotten way to grow up. And just explaining what it is and then explaining to them the strengths ... And then if you're a Christian, like for my kids, I've told them, "You were created by God with a purpose." Sarah (30:06): I know that there have got to be listeners today who are listening thinking, "Oh my goodness, there are so many things in my head..." So many bells are ringing for them as far as what might be happening in their child's reading life, their child's learning life. And one of the things that was discouraging to me at the beginning of learning about dyslexia was finding out that it's "best" for a dyslexic child to be remediated or get that systematic reading instruction that's really good for dyslexic kids starting at a young age. But what about those who are listening who have kids who are 12 or 14 or 15 and their parents are realizing, "Oh, I think you might need to learn a different way"? What do you have to say for them? Is it too late? Did they mess it up? Marianne (30:51): No. There's a couple points. One is, if you feel like they need remediation, if you feel like their reading and spelling, it still needs help, you could hire a tutor, you could use something like All About Reading. I recommend this program called Reading Horizons. It's an online Orton-Gillingham program and they have two levels, one for kids I think four to nine and one for 10 and up. The one for 10 and up is gold. There's a lot of people that like teaching textbooks. It's like teaching textbooks for reading. It's just systematic, there's no bunny rabbits and butterflies, it's just black and white, systematic. I often run my kids through there once they've learned to read. I'll just run them through and they learn all the rules. (31:41): So you can remediate an older child, and you can offer them accommodations, which are things like audiobooks. It's things like assistive technology where they can speak their papers, or you can scribe for them. It's never ever too late. If you realize that your child has been struggling because of dyslexia, learn about it together like it's part of school. Just start telling them about what dyslexia is and the famous dyslexics, like you were mentioning, and give them the support that they need. My one son who's profoundly dyslexic, the older one, he was doing his Eagle Scout project and he would come to me because it was a lot of paperwork, and he was like, "Mom, can you help me with this?" And I'm like, "Look bud, if you're going to be an Eagle Scout, you need to do your own notebook." And his tutor was like " Oh! My goodness," and she was helping him to fill out all this paperwork. (32:40): I came to learn later that all of the kids who got Eagle Scout, all of their parents helped them with the paperwork, whether they were dyslexic or not. I was like, "Oh." So you really cannot help a kid too much. When they don't want help, believe me, they're going to tell you they don't want any help, right? Sarah (32:58): That's true. Marianne (32:58): So I would rather err on the side of helping too much as opposed to not helping enough and leaving them stranded, you know what I mean? And isn't that the struggle of homeschooling? It's like, "Am I doing too much and enabling them to be lazy?" But with kids with dyslexia, and if they need help, I would definitely help them. And just oftentimes writing can be difficult for older dyslexic kids. They might have all the ideas and stuff, but it's actually getting it out of their head onto paper, sometimes called dysgraphia. Dysgraphia is difficulty with writing, and it could be due to small motor issues, it could be due to large motor issues, but a lot of times it's just processing. It's that language processing. It's trying to get the words out of the brain and onto paper. And so a lot of times, a graphic organizer or a web ... you know the idea wheels or whatever ... those kinds of visual tools can be really helpful for older kids. (33:57): But again, using a writing program that's systematic, which many are. You have the brainstorming stage and then you have the outlining stage and then you build a thesis. Just teaching them systematically and using the same system over and over. I kind of apply the Orton-Gillingham principles of teaching reading to other subjects so that you're just breaking things down into little pieces and teaching each specific thing and letting them get good at it. So my kids did IEW for years and at the beginning, I would write everything, basically. I'd write the outlines ... They would say- Sarah (34:36): They're telling it to you ... Marianne (34:37): They would tell it, mm-hmm (affirmative). Sarah (34:37): ... and you were writing it for them. Yes, yes. Marianne (34:38): And then I would type their papers. Then gradually, I would have them speak their papers. Then they got better at typing and then they would type them. Then I'd have them do the outlines themselves. I gradually released more responsibility to them as they were ready, and those kids are great writers now. Sarah (35:07): Okay, so you mentioned two things in there, that you can't help your child too much, which I think is really a watershed idea for homeschooling parents to hold onto, because we tend to think that we're doing our kids a disservice when we're helping them. But Andrew Pudewa, speaking of IEW, the founder of IEW, once told a story about how he was at a school doing a writing training and one of the students wasn't writing and Andrew was walking around the room because they were supposed to be, I don't know, brainstorming or whatever. I'm not sure what phase they were in, what stage they were in in the program. But anyway, a student raises his hand and says, "I don't know what to write." And so Andrew tells him, "Oh, okay, write this," and tells him what to write. And the teacher who was in the room said, "You can't do that. You're doing his work for him." And Andrew said, "Well, I'm here to teach him to write, so now I'm just teaching him how to write. I'm teaching him what to write. That's what it is." (35:59): So in our head, we kind of thought that, too, right? The first time I heard that story, I thought, "Well, you can't do the work for him." Then you realize, what is teaching? We're modeling. We're showing them what to do. Marianne (36:08): You're getting the kindling going, you know? Sarah (36:10): Yeah. Yeah. Marianne (36:11): You've got to get the kindling going so that the rest of the fire can go, and whatever it takes. Kind of like the birds and the bees. I just give them a little bit at a time. If they're asking, I'll keep telling, but I don't give too much away at first. I just kind of wait until they ask. Sarah (36:28): So good. Well, we are going to dive in again in the next episode. Before we do, what is just your one takeaway for parents from this episode who are listening and thinking, "Okay, what's the first step?" I'm going to tell you that your takeaway should be to go read Marianne's book, Dyslexia 101. We'll have a link in the show notes. You can find it online. Marianne, what would you like to say to- Marianne (36:49): I would really say to get educated. Really, I think getting educated about dyslexia is so important because our kids are really bright and they have a lot of potential, and we don't want to waste a lot of time and energy trying to pound them into ... these square pegs, so to speak, into a round hole. Understanding how they learn, understanding their strengths, and you know your kid better than anybody, so you're totally way ahead of the game. Sarah (37:23): Now it's time to hear from the kids. They'll tell us about the books they've been loving lately. Bryce (37:32): Hi everybody. My name's Bryce and I live in Arkansas, and my books that I like are called [inaudible 00:37:40] and The Critter Club and [inaudible 00:37:46] Benjamin (37:48): My name is Benjamin and I'm six and a half and I live in Washington and I was born in Oregon. My favorite book is The Twits, and it's illustrated by Quentin Blake and it's written by Roald Dahl. Speaker 5 (38:10): Why do you like it? Benjamin (38:11): Because it's funny. Celestia (38:15): My name is Celestia and I'm 10 years old and I live in Washington. My favorite book is Fablehaven because ... It's written by Brandon Mull and I like it because there's lots of magic and adventures. Sophia (38:38): Hi, my name is Sophia and I am four years old and I live in Ohio. My favorite book is the dolly book, The Best-Loved Doll, because I like the dollies. Molly (38:49): Hi, my name is Molly. I'm 12 years old and I live in Maine. My favorite book is Little Women. I like it so much because all four girls relate to me. Karina (39:01): Hi, my name's Karina and I'm nine years old and I live in Maine. My favorite book is the Harry Potter series, and I like it because there's a lot of action in them. Ryder (39:13): Hi, my name is Ryder and I'm five years old and I live in Maine. My favorite book is Fortunately and the author's name is Remy Charlip. Why I like it is because he runs away from the tigers. Elisa (39:33): I'm Elisa and I'm 10 years old. The book I want to recommend is Amos Fortune, Free Man. I like and recommend this book because it shows courage and love, and it also shows how God created everyone and they are all important to him. In his life, Amos Fortune faces hardships and yet he has joyful moments, too. He saves many close friends and even though some died, they died after knowing freedom. This book is written of a free boy who is captured and then freed again. Amos Fortune's dream of being free came true. Nolan (40:11): My name is Nolan and I am five years old, I live in California, and my favorite book is called Dragons Love Tacos. Grady (40:21): Hi, my name's Grady. My age is eight and I live in Wisconsin. My favorite book is The Saturdays. I like it because they're doing unique things like going on adventures in the woods and all these kind of different adventures, and that's why I like it. Sarah (40:47): Thank you, thank you, kids. Wonderful as always. Hey, if this episode rang some bells for you and you're feeling like you need to hear more, I highly recommend Marianne's website, homeschoolingwithdyslexia.com. Go ahead and do yourself a favor and just pick up her book Dyslexia 101. I read it in an hour or two, I think. I mean, it's a very quick read, and that's why I think it's the best first place to go. It's going to do a couple things for you. It's going to give you that confirmation that either what you're looking at or thinking about in your own kids is dyslexia or isn't, and it's also going to be really encouraging. I felt like, "Okay," after I read it. It was one of the first times I finished a dyslexia resource and thought, "Okay, I am so all in on this and we are going to help our kids thrive, and dyslexia is a gift that they have been uniquely gifted with in order to do their work in the world." So Dyslexia 101 by Marianne Sunderland. We'll have a link to it in the show notes. You can pick it up on Amazon, and of course, her website, like I mentioned, homeschoolingwithdyslexia.com. (41:51): Now, speaking of homeschooling with dyslexia, on the very next episode, I've invited Marianne back to talk with us about specifically homeschooling dyslexic kids. Because like I said, seven out of her eight kids are dyslexic, she homeschooled them, and I really wanted to get to some practical nitty gritty details on the best ways to homeschool our kids who are dyslexic. So she's coming on the next episode, episode 176. That'll drop in your podcast app or right here in your email, depending on where you're listening. Until then, you know what to do in the meantime, right? Go make meaningful and lasting connections with your kids through books. (42:37): So many of us feel overwhelmed in our homeschool. There's a lot to do and it feels like every child needs something a little different. The good news is, you are the best person on the planet to help your kids learn and grow, and home is the best place to fall in love with books. I'm Sarah Mackenzie. I'm a homeschooling mother of six, the author of Teaching from Rest and The Read-Aloud Family, and I'm the host here on the Read-Aloud Revival podcast. This podcast has been downloaded over 8 million times, and I think it's because so many of us want the same things. We want our kids to be readers, to love reading. We want our homes to be warm and happy havens of learning and connection. We know that raising our kids is the most important work of our lives. (43:41): That's kind of overwhelming, right? You are not alone. In Read-Aloud Revival Premium, we offer family book clubs, a vibrant community, and Circle with Sarah, coaching for you, the homeschooling mom, so you can teach from rest, homeschool with confidence, and raise kids who love to read. Our family book clubs are a game changer for your kids relationship with books. We provide you with a family book club guide and an opportunity for your kids to meet the author or illustrator live on screen. So all you have to do is get the book, read it with your kids, and make those meaningful and lasting connections. They work for all ages, from your youngest kids to your teens. (44:33): Every month, our community also gathers online for a Circle with Sarah to get ideas and encouragement around creating the homeschooling life you crave. They're the most effective way I know to teach from rest and build a homeschool life you love. We want to help your kids fall in love with books, and we want to help you fall in love with homeschooling. Join us today at rarpremium.com.