RAR #151: It’s a Story… So What? Barb Rosenstock

Barb (00:00): It's the one thing we all have in common, every reader and writer has in common is personhood. So having any topic, no matter what the... I don't care if it's science or math or a social studies topic or a history topic or whatever, relate it first by the stories of the people who did it. To me is just like, "Oh, of course that's where you start." Sarah (00:35): You're listening to the Read-Aloud Revival Podcast. This is the podcast that helps you make meaningful and lasting connections with your kids through books. (00:50): Hello. It's Sarah Mackenzie here. Happy April. So glad to have you with me today. I've got a guest here on the show today you're going to love, you can probably already tell just from that little tiny clip I gave you a taste of. Barb Rosenstock is writing some of today's very best picture book biographies and we're picture book biography aficionados around here. So, I feel like I can say that with some authority. Today in our conversation. You're going to hear why a picture book biography is actually more about connection than it is about history. It's about the experience of being human, and my favorite is when she talks about the "So What?" Factor. Here's a story, "So what?" Oh man, it's really good and I don't want to keep you waiting because this was such a great conversation. I want to get right into it. So let's just start by giving to our listener question. Today's question comes from Jenn. Jenn (01:45): Hello, Sarah. My name is Jenn and I am a substitute teacher and a former elementary school teacher. I have a third grader and a second grader, both girls, and I substitute in their classes regularly. I would like to know if you have any recommendations or picture books that I can gift my girls' teachers, and maybe even have at the end of the year, as a little thank you gift at the end of the year. Have the students from that class even sign that book and then gift it to the teachers. We have some amazing teachers, and I would just like to show my gratitude. So I am looking for great ideas or picture books for teachers that they can continue on and read to their classes in the future and really appreciate. Thank you so much. Sarah (02:48): Oh, Jenn. I love this idea so much and it was really fun for me to make a short list of books for you. Here are some picture books that would make lovely gifts for your kids' favorite teachers. The first one that comes to mind is called, A Letter To My Teacher. It's a picture book written by Deborah Hopkinson, illustrated by Nancy Carpenter. Nancy is actually coming this month to do an author access in RAR Premium. She is one of the best of the best in illustration and we've actually had Deborah Hopkinson before so both of them we're big fans of them around here. And this is a beautifully touching book about the wonder and impact a good teacher has on the lives of her students for years and years to come. That's called, A Letter To My Teacher. (03:35): Another one that would be excellent is, The Art of Miss Chew. That one's by Patricia Polacco. It's a picture book based on Patricia's actual real life experience as a child and her art teacher, Miss Chew, who acted as a fearless advocate for Patricia growing up. It's just an all around great story too. It's made a lot of our book lists because we love it. And another one by Patricia Polacco that would be lovely as a gift is, Thank You, Mr. Falker, which is the real life classic tale of dyslexic girl, in this case Patricia Polacco herself and the teacher who simply would not let her fail. That one is especially wonderful for reading teachers. (04:15): One picture book I love for teachers is out of print, but I think it's one of the best picture books ever. It's probably in my very top 10 favorite of all picture books. So I wish it wasn't out of print. I hope they'll bring it back. But you can still find used copies at good prices online and it's called, The Tale of Tricky Fox by Jim Aylesworth. (04:34): It's illustrated by Barbara McClintock. It's a trickster tale. And I don't want to spoil it for anyone who hasn't read it yet, but it's funny. It's one of my very favorite picture books to read aloud and teachers, let's just say we'll be delighted by the outcome. And then for anyone who's listening, who's got older kids and wonders what to give their teachers, any of those picture books would all be lovely gifts, especially the first one I mentioned, A Letter To My Teacher. But if you'd like a novel, I can't do any better than Frindle by the late and wonderful Andrew Clements. Before he passed away, Andrew came on RAR revival premium for Author Access and it was a highlight for us. He was a masterful storyteller and this story in particular is especially delightful because it's short, it's compelling. When you're reading it, you think you're just reading this lighthearted story about a boy who tries to best his teacher and then the talent gets a little carried away along with him, but the story turns out to be so much more. (05:36): I think it reads like a love letter to teachers everywhere. That is Frindle, F-R-I-N-D-L-E. Again Jenn, I think this is a superb idea to buy teachers a picture book as an end of year or a thank you gift and then have the students in the class sign it. What a wonderful idea and... Really a gift the teacher will treasure. So we're going to put this little mini list of recommendations in the show notes so you can find them easily. Those are going to be at readaloudrevival.com/151. Thank you for your question, Jenn. I appreciate it and if any of our listeners would like to ask a question that you would like me to answer on an upcoming episode of the podcast, go to readaloudrevival.com and then you'll just scroll down to the bottom of the page until you see a button that says, "Got a question for Sarah Mackenzie" and you can leave your voicemail there. (06:35): Today's guest is Barb Rosenstock and Barb has written dozens of picture book biographies for kids. Her work has won many awards and is delighting the hearts and minds of kids and adults everywhere. She's also just a treasure of a person. I think you're going to love her. Barb, I am so glad you're here. We had you on last year for Author Access as part of our RAR premium family book club. I think you catapulted yourself to the top favorites list. We all loved you. The kids were engaged, everyone learned so much, and your enthusiasm for whatever you're curious about, it's completely and totally contagious. Barb (07:14): I guess that's why I do what I do. I finally found my... It took me like 45 years, but I found my right job. Sarah (07:23): Well we are huge fans of picture book biographies at Read-Aloud Revival. Huge fans of your picture book biographies in particular. One of our members, Michelle is the one who recommended one of your books in our premium forum and I thought, "Huh, I don't know that one." And so I went to the library and got it. And she said, "Sarah, you will really love this woman's work because we've been reading all of her books." So I went to the library and got your books and we own them all now. I think every single one of your books has a place on our family shells because we love them so much. So one of the educational philosophies a lot of our listeners love is Charlotte Mason. And she was this 19th century educational guru, for lack of a better word. One of her philosophies is that the best way to learn history is to see it through the lens of a single person who was there. His dates don't move us and a list imports and exports from my country. Barb (08:20): I love Charlotte, who I've never heard of. Sarah (08:22): You probably, you would love Charlotte. You'd love her. Barb (08:26): [inaudible 00:08:26]. Sarah (08:27): Yeah. She would say a list of imports or exports from my country. A list of battles lost or won that feels empty and meaningless and when it's taken out of context. But take me into the battlefield through the eyes of a black soldier during the civil war, or take me along a boat with Abigail Adams after America wins the revolutionary war where she's ordering this ship to be scrubbed from gangplank to galley and she's whipping up all these tasty puddings, and we are therefore, it gives us this whole different perspective. That is the magic you are doing through picture book biographies. Barb (09:01): Oh my Gosh, thank you so much. And I am going to have to get more information on Miss Charlotte here because she is right up, my alley. I had a grandfather who told stories about people in his life, historical people. My grandpa Stan. And when I look back, I mean that I don't think I really started this career with any true idea that I was following in his footsteps. But now that I've been into it about a decade, I can look back and absolutely see that those families history stories that were certainly part of my family history and I hope are part of most people's, or at least if you have any family history, tell the stories to the kids. Really did touch me and really informs that work because I don't think... I think the only way I learned history as a series of chronological facts and that's probably why I didn't like it. It just sucks the life right out of it. It's literally you take what is to me the most fascinating subject on the planet and literally you can make the most boring thing you ever heard. Sarah (10:09): It's true. Barb (10:10): I still see writing like this. "George Washington was born in 1732," I mean, who cares. Sarah (10:16): And 1732 means nothing. Barb (10:18): What is there? I mean, I go to schools and kids asked me if I was [inaudible 00:10:21] during the civil war. So what in the world could 1732 mean to a second grader? It doesn't mean much to me. And I do this for a living and it really doesn't mean much to me. So I really don't understand the way that... Certainly that I was taught history. So, what I really try to do is take my grandfather away. My grandfather told the story and I'm trying to tell family stories about people I've never met, if that makes any sense. Sarah (10:49): So I understand that you don't start writing your picture book biographies because you're looking to tell a particular person's story. Right? So, let's talk about your process. I'm sure you get this question all the time. How do you decide who to write about and how do you know that those ideas or that person is worth writing a book about? Barb (11:09): I always good at when someone says, "What's your process?" I always want to start giggling because I'm not quite sure I really have one. It's sometimes long and meandering. There are days I'm not really sure I have a definitive process at all. I don't keep a list of people I want to write about. What I'm doing is not the way a traditional biography project in school is, "Here's your list of 10 people and you can pick a person to do a project on." I just guess and I think this is why the books come out the way that they do. I'll run across something that I read or a photo I see or a piece of art, a museum visit, a wonder. I've wondered like, "Who made that lawn or what's that machine" or something like that. (11:54): And I keep a cupping of file of things like that that I found interesting and I have yet in 10 years to go in that file and write about anything in there. So it's a little more random than people might think. I tell kids it's like keeping your eyes open and your ears open and maybe even your smell open. There is sense of smell open and everything, just being open to the world. And whenever I get an idea that it's like, "Huh, I didn't know the Library of Congress is Thomas Jefferson's books. What?" I wanted to say that day. I can distinctly remember the day I went, "Wait a minute," my sister is a librarian and I'm like, "Wait a minute. I mean, my sister is a librarian, I write books and I didn't know that." Why don't I know that story? What is that story? Right? (12:43): So that's how it starts, is with an idea that stops my brain. I call it like a little glitch or a skip or something in your brain and turning that idea into a book. That whole idea that I think I brought up last time of, the whole idea of "So what." And I don't mean that in a... It's sounds naughty, but I don't mean it that way. It's like my shorthand for, I need to find an underlying principle that takes that idea to the level of a book. There's a lot of people in the world with great ideas and people will say, "Oh I have a great idea for a book," but in a way idea is the easiest thing, execution is everything. So it's the idea of, there has to be something more to this story than that cool fact. (13:41): Thomas Jefferson's books. Okay, so what? So if, if that's all we knew about it and truly it wouldn't have been a book and I can give you guys so many examples of this, there is so many cool things. Did you know for example that Ben Franklin and John Adams one spent a night together in a hotel in the same bed? In [inaudible 00:14:00] technically you don't think that. Sarah (14:01): Really. Barb (14:02): Right. And they spent the whole evening opening and closing the window because one of them wanted the window open and thought that was healthier and one of them wanted the window closed and thought that was healthier. Super funny cool fact to build a book around. Except I've been trying for almost seven years to build that book. There's nothing else there. There's no real "So what." They had a cute evening. Right? It's not that his books and there was someone who loved reading so much and he started as a child and this all built up and he built this wonderful library and all these cool facts about his library. And then that library, then there was a horrible disaster and he donates all the books and now you kids can go... You kids, adults, everyone in the country basically owns the library that belonged to Thomas Jefferson. That's a book. (15:00): The thing with biographies to me is that we are all people, right? It's the most natural connection to me in the world. It's the one thing we all have in common, every reader and writer has in common is personhood. So having any topic, no matter what that... I don't care if it's science or math or a social studies topic or a history topic or whatever relate it first by the stories of the people who did it. To me is just like, "Oh, of course that's where you start." We're all people. Right? Your grandma history is just everybody's life story put together. Your great grandma and their great grandma and their great grandpa and a lot of times kids will say that they hate history. I don't think they hate history. I think they hate the way it's being presented. (15:46): And to me people it's just a natural connection. That's the closest I can come with it, is that people are naturally interesting. Like Van Gogh. All right. Van Gogh can sleep. I mean, I thought that was the coolest thing when I found out that as a child he was a wandering around outside like as an eight year old. And then what painting, then it's those connections too. I was like, "What painting is he most famous for?" A painting of the nighttime. Well, of course I think a lot of what we do as adults is rooted in all of those memories and feelings and everything of our childhoods. And that's another reason why I probably write for children, is I just think that they're so important. The things that children occupy their brains and hearts with young really are going to have residents for them as adults. Sarah (16:39): Well, and then there's that piece of in a picture book biography, a lot of times the person you're telling the story of there's the element of them as children. And for me as a kid, I think I would have been astonished to realize the Abigail Adams had ever been a child. It's like seeing your teacher at the grocery store and you're like, "Wait, you eat?" I would have been... It's like, "You've been a kid before?" And then say you hear about someone like Thomas Jefferson or George Washington and you don't think of them as being children. Barb (17:11): Right. Well, out of all my books, the one that came about directly because of what you're talking about is Ben Franklin's Big Splash. And it's because I heard something about Ben Franklin inventing early on, but I didn't know it was swim fins. I just didn't know what it was. And all of a sudden I looked at all the other books about Ben Franklin and there's like 10 gazillion of them, right? I don't know. Sarah (17:37): Lots. Yeah. Barb (17:38): Lots of picture books about Ben Franklin. It was lots of them. I was like, "Well that's silly. Why would you even try to write another one?" And then one day I was looking at them all... There was a lot of them on the library sitting on my office floor and I looks him there, "He's a fat old man in every single one of these covers. Was Ben which ever a kid? I wonder." And that's really the beginning of that book. Sarah (18:00): Well, and then it's like it's starting with the question because you think, I wonder if Ben Franklin was a kid, what was he like? I don't know anything about it. And then probably I would guess that as you're doing research and digging into that, questions just bubbling up because you're like, "And I wonder about this and how did he that" or "What was it like? What were his parents like? What was his school like?" I don't know. Right? Then it feels almost just like a trail of following your questions and following your curiosity to see where it leads you. Barb (18:29): It does at some point because a picture book is so short. At some point you need to be really focused though but that's sometimes takes a while. I usually know way more. I think of research as surface research and deeper research, general. And surface research to me is stuff you can find on Google. That's shorthand for stuff you can... When was this? Who were their parents? Did they have any siblings? Those are all Google-able things, right? Deeper research is why would someone do that? Right? Why would two guys put themselves in a metal bowling ball and go 800 feet underneath the ocean when no one had done it before? Right? Those are things that require that primary research or what was Abigail Adams life like? You can't really Google that, right? (19:17): If you're going to ask that question, what was her daily life like? That's going to be a really long Google search if you want to go and do that or it probably doesn't even exist. You need to read Abigail's daily life. You need to go to her the primary sources, her letters, her home, experts that know about her. So really research is just... Yeah, it is just following a trail. It's just that there's usually at the beginning it's a lot of surface trail. And then later on you have to really climb the mountain like, "All right, what am I writing about?" I'm writing about Thomas Jefferson and his books. (20:04): I wish I could write a novel, but I can't. I just think like this. I don't know. It's a puzzle. Writing a picture book is a puzzle and I just like it. Sarah (20:13): Well, I'm glad you like it because you keep making books and you just had two just come out. Fight of the Century: Alice Paul battles Woodrow Wilson for the Vote and Leave It to Abigail!: The Revolutionary Life of Abigail Adams. We will have links to all of Barb's books in the show notes for this episode, which are at readaloudrevival.com/151. So don't worry if you didn't have time to scroll down those titles, we'll have them for you in the show notes. In the Abigail Adams book, the illustrations that I love best and I love the illustrations. Actually before I tell you about the one I love best, do you know... Is this real cross stitch that's in the book? Barb (20:48): As Elizabeth Baddeley. Anybody who's listening go and get this book out of your library. I'm not telling you to buy it, buy it if you can, but if you can't, that's okay too. Get it out of your library and look at the end papers, those were sewn with thread. Most of everything that you see that looks like... I think everything that you see that looks like cross-stitch is Elizabeth Baddeley's actual cross-stitch. Sarah (21:13): Oh my goodness. That is amazing. Barb (21:15): She sold this book. I was shocked when I found that out. The book had come out when I found that out. I literally put on Twitter, "Wait, Elizabeth Baddeley, are you meaning to tell me what this is sewn?" Sarah (21:27): I wondered because it is so beautiful and it gives it a different textural experience reading. I mean, obviously the pages are smooth because it's a phaser book you buy at the store, but it feels like a piece, like an artifact more than it could have. Barb (21:45): It's artwork. Like for real dimensional artwork. Sarah (21:47): Yeah. Okay. So the illustration that I love best, and I love so many in this book, but there is an image of Abigail holding her baby boy who looks very joyful. She's got a quell in her mouth and she's reading over one of her husband John's articles and she's helping him edit and shape the article. But it feels to me like the presence to be there for her children, teaching her kids and putting up food and digging potatoes and tending the house while she's also, feeding the militia during the revolutionary war and helping her husband write these letters and like you said, importing handkerchiefs to have money to feed their family. And it just feels like, I just... I love her. I think that's what I'm trying to say. Barb (22:38): She's the original juggler as we have talked about before. She's the original modern woman to me. I mean, she was a competent person. And when things came her way she just handled them. I mean, I think that's what happened. I did visit her house and I went up in the attic with Weymouth's national parks guide. And I just kept thinking, the guy's like, "And then she used to put up soldiers up here and then she would feed them. And then of course they need the bedding wash. And then she would make some of their meals and if any of them were sick, she would take care of them." And I was just like, "Oh my gosh, leave it to Abigail." I said that out loud. (23:19): And I went, "Wait a minute. That might be my book. That might be my, so what?" Right? So I was already in the midst of research before I had that "So what." But it was like, leave it to Abigail that says so much to me about... It was a text structure. It was a title. That's what everybody did. She was so competent that they just was like, "Well, leave it to Abigail, she'll figure it out." And she did over and over and over. She was a very much was a woman of her time. It wasn't like she was some... You wouldn't walk down the street and go, "Wow, that's heretical female" by looking at her. She was dressed the same way most other women were dressed, but wow, did she have it going on. (24:06): She just knew her own mind. She was loved by her husband for that mind, which is always helpful. And she just had the confidence to be like, "Well this is what I think" and John really relied on that too. Like, ""Abigail, what do you think?" "What do you think about this guy? Do you think that they're supportive?" He knew that he had a treasure. She really wasn't formally educated in any sense of the words she just read her way into knowing what she knew. Sarah (24:45): Okay. So which of your books has been the most fascinating to research? Is that even a fair question? I'm not sure it is. Barb (24:51): No. It's a little bit like asking a mother, which of her children she finds most interesting. Wow. Who am I going to throw under the bus? No, at the time that I'm writing or developing the book, each of them is the most fascinating thing I'm working on. So it's whatever what I'm doing then. Sarah (25:13): I love it. Barb (25:14): So I wouldn't have gone through the trouble. If I didn't feel that way, I'm not sure that I'd continue. And there's plenty of projects that I've abandoned, because they don't find that thing or I just go, "I don't care." I mean, I'll sometimes get, I don't know, a couple of months into a set of research for something and then go, "I don't really care." (25:35): I'll just get to that point where I'm, "Yeah, no, this is not mine to write." In some cases someone else will write something and that'll be pretty good and I'll be like, "Well great, that was theirs to write." But I couldn't find what I cared about it. So it doesn't always mean that the subject is bad or the idea is bad. It means that for whatever reason, I don't have enough of a connection with it to make it interesting and if it's not interesting to me there's no way it's going to be interesting to anybody who reads it. So that's how that goes. So no, I don't have one that was the most fascinating to research. Sarah (26:07): Was there any that were harder to research than the others? Barb (26:12): Anything where there's not a lot of primary sources. Let me think about that a second. I am looking at my wall of books here. (26:24): What was really difficult... I'm going to have to say The Secret Kingdom was very difficult to research and to be completely forthright about it, it's because I was not able to travel there because of expense, because of safety of where it is and the fact I'd been going by myself to basically the border of Pakistan and India. Nobody was comfortable with me doing that and I never went there. I really still definitely want to go. It's definitely still something on my list I'd like to see it. But it was difficult to get a good handle on the place. The way that I wound up doing that is to have somebody who was there on the ground, walk around with film and I watched a lot of film. I probably did way more research for that book than anything else because of the fact that I couldn't go. (27:27): I don't want to say it was around it. There was ways through it, but I almost didn't continue that project because I felt like was I really going to be able to know if I hadn't been there? And I also had a lot of people who were natives of... Who had been born or raised in that area of India read the text for me and give me their thoughts and opinions and things like that, which was really helpful also. So that was probably the hardest recent one. The hardest one ever was the first one. Because you love what you're doing, like anything else the first time you do anything, it's hard. Sarah (28:08): Which one was your first one? Barb (28:10): I mean it's called Fearless and it was published in 2010 and it is about the one of the very first women NASCAR racers named Louise Smith. Sarah (28:19): Oh, okay. Maybe that's one we don't have actually. Barb (28:22): Who first drove her first car at the age of seven years old and that is in the book. Sarah (28:27): Oh my gosh, that's amazing. She had got a big kick out of that and ask to drive after they read it. Barb (28:32): So read this [inaudible 00:28:34] forward with caution parents. I love it. Well what is next for you, Barb? (28:41): Mary Grandpre, my Caldicot honoree partner from the noisy paint box and I have a book next year coming out called, Mornings With Monet. And I just saw a little snippets of Mary's art and it is gorgeous. It is like, I don't know how she does it. I don't know how she does her art yet it's Monet ish, but it's original. So it's wonderful. So I can't wait for anyone who's into the water lilies or a Monet or any of the impressionists art lovers to see it. And it's really, from my perspective, my so what, it's a book about art and work and that art... The whole book takes place in less than five hours in one day. And that's all I'm going to say. It was a fun puzzle to work out, a super fun puzzle to work out and I hope everybody likes it. But that'll be out I believe next spring in March sometime next year. Sarah (29:44): Well, I hope to have you back, Barb. We love you here at Read Aloud Revival. Barb (29:47): Thank you so much Sarah it's so great. I love doing it. Sarah (29:56): Now it's time for let the kids speak. I love this part of the podcast because kids share the books that they've been loving lately. Logan (30:09): Hi, my name is Logan and I am six. Speaker 1 (30:10): And where'd you live? Logan (30:14): [inaudible 00:30:15]. Sarah (30:15): And what's your favorite book? Logan (30:18): The Whole Bit. And my favorite part is the battle of the [inaudible 00:30:23]. Speaker 6 (30:24): Hi, my name is [inaudible 00:30:25] and we live at Oxford, England. Speaker 1 (30:27): How old are you? Speaker 6 (30:29): I'm four. Speaker 1 (30:31): What's your favorite book? Speaker 6 (30:32): My favorite book is The Rain Goes Wild and the part I like is when they when [inaudible 00:30:39] finds the house. Evelyn (30:43): Hi, my name is Evelyn. I am nine years old. I live in Kentucky. My favorite book is the Pinto IS. My favorite part is when they have fun adventures. Speaker 7 (30:53): Hi, I'm [inaudible 00:30:55] . I live in Bellflower, California and my favorite book read aloud to me is Treasure Island by Robert Louis Stevenson because Jim Hawkins was very brave. Doreen (31:06): Hi, my name is Doreen. I live in Bellflower, California and I'm nine years old and my favorite book read aloud to me is Paddle to The Sea because he has a big adventure and one time he got stuck in a Lake. Speaker 11 (31:22): Hi, my name is [inaudible 00:31:23]. I'm eight years old and I live in Merrimack, New Hampshire. I love the book. [inaudible 00:31:29] The book is about five girls are very busy parents who were dropped off in boxes and [inaudible 00:31:38] funny boarding school. What I like about it is the funny conversations. For example, [inaudible 00:31:45] girls, we should all strive to be like [inaudible 00:31:49] but what if I don't want to be in a [inaudible 00:31:53]? Speaker 12 (31:54): My name is [inaudible 00:31:55]. I am eight and a half years old. I am from Missouri and my favorite book is the Encyclopedia of Horses and Ponies. I like to learn the history of horses and the horse breeds in the book. I also like to learn how to take care of horses. Speaker 13 (32:20): My name is Allie. I am six and a half years old. My favorite book is The House We Lived Then. I like it because I like all the designs. I'm from Missouri. Speaker 14 (32:42): My name is [inaudible 00:32:44] and I'm four and half. From Missouri and my favorite book is Room and The Broom and because I like because there's a cat and dog and a frog and a witch and a dragon. Speaker 1 (33:13): What's your name? Edwin (33:13): Edwin Speaker 1 (33:16): Edwin. How old are you? Edwin (33:20): Two. Speaker 1 (33:21): Two. Are you from Missouri? Edwin (33:23): Yes. Speaker 1 (33:24): Yes. What's your favorite book? Edwin (33:26): [inaudible 00:33:29] Sarah (33:33): Thank you so much kids. Men I love those messages. If your kids would like to be on the show, they can leave us a message at readaloudrevival.com. Just go there and scroll to the bottom of the page and you'll see a button where you can leave a voicemail, no pressure, no stress, you then can repeat after you, we can edit and clean them up over here, so much fun. We love to share what your kids are reading lately. If you're not on the e-mail list, you are missing our best free resources and book lists, so make sure you're on it. (34:06): Go to readaloudrevival.com and pop your e-mail in there. You don't want to miss those. I sent a little something to your inbox every Tuesday morning that helps you make meaningful and lasting connections with your kids and you really won't to be able to get those, so don't forget to do that. Let's see. Links from today's show are all at readaloudrevival.com/151 and I think that's all I have to tell you just now. I'll be back in two weeks with another show. You know, I will. I'll see then. In the meantime, go make meaningful and lasting connections with your kids. Three books.