Best of RAR: Penderwicks Fans Rejoice!

Sarah Mackenzie (00:05): Hey, hey. Sarah Mackenzie here. You are listening to the Read-Aloud Revival, the show that helps you make meaningful and lasting connections with your kids through books. (00:18): Today we're talking about a book series I adore. In fact, if you were to ask me what kind of book that I wish there were more of, like if you said, "Hey, Sarah, name any book that you wish you could find more like," I would say without hesitation or delay, I would say, "The Penderwicks by Jeanne Birdsall." (00:38): The Penderwicks is a captivating series, and it follows the escapades of the Penderwick family. Four-spirited sisters named Rosalind, Skye, Jane, and Batty. The books have won tons of awards, including the National Book Award for Young People's Literature, several ALA Notable Children's Book awards and the Massachusetts Children's Book Award. (01:01): There're a modern day nod-to Louisa May Alcott's Little Woman. It features four sisters, like I mentioned, right? Rosalind is the oldest. She's nurturing and dependable. Then, there's Skye. She's this athletic firecracker of a sister. She brings a competitive spirit to the mix. Jane is the writer sister with a very vivid imagination. And Batty, my own personal favorite. Although I love Jane too, I love all of the sisters, but Batty's the youngest, and she's actually the star of my favorite of all of The Penderwicks books, book number four, The Penderwicks in Spring, which I happen to think is Jeanne Birdsall's current masterpiece. (01:45): Anyway, I interviewed Jeanne Birdsall back in episode 100, and that's what I'm going to play for you today, but I have two new things to share with you that I didn't have for you back in episode 100. One is that The Penderwicks: A Summer Tale of Four Sisters, Two Rabbits, and a Very Interesting Boy. That's book one in a series, it's our Family Book Club pick for this summer, and that means we've got a full Read-Aloud Revival Family Book Club guide with all the trimmings for all RAR Premium members. That's available now in premium. (02:18): You can use it with kids from ages five to 18. It's got ideas for all across the curriculum. Also, just really fun summer memories that you can make with your kids to have a really fun family summer book club experience with your kids. If you are an RAR Premium member, go grab it from your premium dashboard. It's up now. And of course, we always wrap up our Family Book Club in premium with the Family Book Club live on Zoom. For this book, we are doing it August 25th, and your kids are going to get to meet Jeanne Birdsall herself and ask their questions of Jeanne. Amazing. (02:55): Again, RAR Premium members, log into your premium dashboard for all the details. And if you're listening to this and you're not a premium member yet, this is the time to join. Not only will you get to give your kids this Family book club and have this wonderful summer experience around The Penderwicks with your kids. You'll be able to give them front-row seats to meet the Inimitable Jeanne Birdsall. And you'll also get access to our first ever Circle with Sarah Retreat, where I'm helping homeschool moms fall in love with their own reading lives before we kick off a new school year. Details are at RARpremium.com or you can text my name Sarah, S-A-R-A-H, to the number 33777, and I'll text you a link. (03:41): Now, since recording this interview back in episode 100, I've actually met Jeanne Birdsall in person. We had breakfast at Sylvester's, a restaurant that she actually included in a couple of her books. We walked to her house. We had seen her garden. And as we were walking through the streets of Northampton, Massachusetts, she told me and showed me, in fact, a garden that she planted outside of a city building without permission in the dark, unbeknownst to anyone. And that little seed was the beginning of a book that I wrote, my first picture book, called A Little More Beautiful: The Story of a Garden. So, really fun. (04:22): Jeanne and I like to call A Little More Beautiful our book, even though she had no idea I had turned it into a book until it was pretty much done. I have so much love for Jeanne, and I know you will too if you read or have read any of The Penderwicks books, and definitely when you meet her here in this episode. So, without further ado, let me introduce you to the marvelous Jeanne Birdsall. Here's that episode 100 interview between Jeanne and myself. (04:54): Okay, so we have a lot of die-hard Penderwicks fans, not just in my home, but also listening in the podcast who are really excited to hear from you. Maybe we should just start from the top. When did the first Penderwicks book come out? What year was that? Jeanne Birdsall (05:11): It came out in 2005. It was not only the first Penderwicks book but also the first book I'd ever tried to write on my own, and so I think I started trying to visualize how to write a book and those characters in the late '90s, so The Penderwicks have been living inside my brain for 20 years now, but they've only been in the wide world published since 2005, which is 13 years. Sarah Mackenzie (05:45): So the very first book that you ever tried to write was the very first book that won... The very first Penderwicks book, which ended up winning a National Book Award, that's what you're telling me? Jeanne Birdsall (05:47): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (05:49): That's amazing. That's amazing. Jeanne Birdsall (05:50): It was insane, and part of it I think was that I was so certain that it wouldn't even get published, that I let myself do exactly what I wanted. And instead of trying to figure out what the market would like or what people would respond to, I had this very long plan that I would learn to write with the first one, just do exactly what I wanted. And then, maybe by the third book, I'd know enough what I was doing. And then, they published the whole series. (06:18): But there's that following your instinct thing that I allowed myself to do, and frankly, my husband allowed me to do because he didn't freak out that I wasn't making money while I was doing this, which is... That's pretty important. And I try to mention that for all the young mothers out there who are working full-time jobs, taking care of their children and trying to write a book or older mothers. Sarah Mackenzie (06:43): Yeah, yeah, because you wrote that first book, I think 41, is that right? I think I heard you say that, and that might have been on the interview with N. D. Wilson or maybe I've heard it somewhere else, but you wrote your first book at 41, I think. Is that right? Jeanne Birdsall (06:57): Well, no. I started writing altogether at 41. Sarah Mackenzie (06:59): Oh, okay. Jeanne Birdsall (07:01): It might have been 42, I can't remember, but it was when I got together with my husband. He had known me in high school, and I was doing photography very, very seriously and had been, and he said, "I remember you as a writer," which I didn't, but he encouraged me. We started working on a book together, which didn't really go anywhere. And then, we got married. It's a very romantic story. And then, five or so years into the marriage, four or something, I said, "I've always wanted to write a children's book." And he said, "Go for it." Sarah Mackenzie (07:32): Wow. Jeanne Birdsall (07:32): So yeah, that was all in my 40s. In 2005, when the first book was published, I was 54 already, which is another thing I point out to people who are frantic in their 30s when they haven't had success yet. Sarah Mackenzie (07:46): Yes, because it's so encouraging to hear. I love stories. We have a lot of both young aspiring writers who have kids listening, but also a lot of mothers listening, and fathers, I'm sure too, who are aspiring writers or writing and trying to navigate that water. And so, that's really inspiring, I think, to hear, because the success of The Penderwicks, not just the success in that they are actually really, really bestselling books, but also just that they're such wonderful books. (08:15): I think so many of us feel like, of course, when you're reading a book that you love, like any of The Penderwicks books, they read like you just sat down and wrote them front to back in one sitting. It all just came out as beautiful as it is. And of course, I know that's not what happened but that's what it feels like when you're reading a book that's so well-written. And so then, to hear about the backstory of what was going on in the background of your life, that's really inspiring. Jeanne Birdsall (08:42): Thank you for putting it that way. I don't think anyone's ever said that to me before that it sounds like I sat down and wrote it in one sitting. I would never have even thought to try to do that, but I think one of the things that might lend itself to that is, as a reader, the thing I really dislike in a book is when all of a sudden I'm pulled out of this story and made to pay attention to the author or something's wrong historically or something like that, so I work really, really, really hard to try, and I hope I do, to keep you so lost in that world that it does seem like it's just happening in front of you. And I'm never waving my hand and saying, "Here I am. Here I am." Sarah Mackenzie (09:28): Well, I think that comes through... I mean, these are the kind of books that we read and reread. Actually, I think there's a post of me on Instagram last summer where I was watching my kids play in the pool, and I said, "I know I've read this... it was the first Penderwicks book. I've read this book so many times, but this is how I'm spending my afternoon." Just rereading it, because it does feel like you just get lost in there. You don't remember where you are. You never get pulled out of the story. (09:59): So, tell me about writing and planning when you were... I don't know, it's probably changed, I would imagine, from the first book to your now new book, which we'll talk about in a few minutes. But that release is today, so if you're listening to this and you're thinking, "Yeah, when's the fifth Penderwicks book coming out? Yeah, you want to head to a bookstore today because you can get your hands on it today, May 15th, 2018. But I'm sure your process has changed, but do you plan a lot? Do you outline? Can you talk a little bit about how your process, what your process looks like when you start writing a new book? Jeanne Birdsall (10:32): It hasn't changed that much because I'm still the kind of writer. I've just learned a lot and trying to make the process a little more streamlined. It took me 10 years to go from dreaming up The Penderwicks to having it published, so I'm more streamline than that. I do not make outlines because I hated making outlines in school. Sarah Mackenzie (10:56): Yeah, totally. Jeanne Birdsall (10:58): I hated that so much. I could still picture one in the AA and then the little a, and then... But also because writers can very generally split themselves into two groups, which are people, character-driven or plot-driven. And then there, of course, a lot of people that go back and forth between them, native courses, one of them. But I know when I start a book, I know who's in it, I know who's going to be the one driving that book, and I know where she and/or he is going to end up. But it's not always clear to me what's going to happen with, I'll just say her, at this point- Sarah Mackenzie (11:42): Sure. Jeanne Birdsall (11:42): ... even though often it was Jeffrey or Ben too, how she was going to get there, what was going to happen, and what was going to happen to all the people around her. And when the last book, I know we aren't talking about it yet, but Lydia, who was just a toddler in the fourth book, is now an 11-year-old. I had to write a lot before I really got to know her, if that makes sense. And I get to know people through how they interact with other people, so I had to learn more about the people around her. And then, as I worked that through, then I could go back to the beginning and start over again. (12:20): My books are very emotion-driven, but the fourth book I had known since I wrote first book that there was a wound between two of the sisters daddy and Skye, and I knew why it was there. And in the fourth book, I knew that I was going to work on them starting to heal that wound. I can't remember exactly, but that's where I knew I was going with that. (12:46): But also, I was always working on this arc to get to the fifth book, so, I was always keeping Rosalind and Tommy in the loop. I always was keeping Skye and Jeffrey, where they were going. I was progressing Jane's writing career and Batty's love of music. She doesn't even learn to love music until the second book but that was essential to get her to the fifth. (13:11): One of the ways I think about these books and that I've written them and structured them is really that they're one big giant book. So, the first three books, I think of as Act One. If we're talking about the theater, and the fourth book is Act Two, and then the fifth book is Act Three. Sarah Mackenzie (13:27): Oh, that's so good. Okay. Because that's one of the things I wanted to ask you is when you were writing that first book, did you know it was going to be a series? Jeanne Birdsall (13:37): Yes. Sarah Mackenzie (13:40): Okay. Yeah. And was that publisher-driven or is that in your own heart, you knew this was going to be a series, there was more stories to tell. Jeanne Birdsall (13:45): Oh, yeah. No, that was in my own heart because I think just like I said earlier about, as like a reader to reader, every decision I make as a writer is based on how I read, and I consider myself much more of a reader than a writer. I mean, my identity, because I've been reading all my life and reading voraciously and rereading voraciously, and I still do probably up to four books a week. (14:11): So, the books that I loved as a child were series, and that's always what I wanted to read. And if there wasn't a series, I would read everything by that author anyway, with Louisa May Alcott just to feel like I was staying in the same world, but Narnia and The Borrowers, E. Nesbit's, The Bastable kids, all that stuff was serious, so, it was not publisher driven,. And I have a funny story to tell about that. (14:38): My editor just told me... Well, she told it as an anecdote, and she just told me this in the last year. After all these years, the same editor I've been working with in the meeting, she was talking about how, when we were trying to come up with a title for the first book, and she wanted this subtitle, and I said, "Well, are we going to have subtitles for all the rest of the books? Do we want to worry about consistency?" And she said, "Oh, well, we'll worry about that when we get there." (15:04): And what she was really thinking is, "Honey, you're never going to get five books out of this. It's not going to sell well enough. I love this book, I love you, but everybody thinks you're going to get to keep writing, and it rarely happens." So, it was the opposite of publisher-driven. They were- Sarah Mackenzie (15:21): Oh, that's so funny. Yeah. Jeanne Birdsall (15:24): And so, if I hadn't won the National Book Award, I don't know what would've happened, except that the indie books sellers long before that had already picked it up and were running with it. So, I might have been able to be okay anyway, but Michelle stands up in front of marketing and laughs about me saying that, and her turning me down, and then she holds up the fifth book and says, "She did it." Sarah Mackenzie (15:50): That's so fun. Jeanne Birdsall (16:04): I have a local bookstore that's three blocks from my house, and anyone who wants a signed copy can get it through them. Sarah Mackenzie (16:11): Oh, awesome. Jeanne Birdsall (16:14): And it's on my website, so if they want to go there, they just have to call them or email them or something. I don't know how that works. And then, tell them who I wanted to find it to, and then the bookstore ships it out. Sarah Mackenzie (16:26): Oh, great. What's the name of the bookstore? Jeanne Birdsall (16:29): Broadside Bookshop. Sarah Mackenzie (16:30): Okay, great. We'll put a link in our show notes as well so people can find those because that is fantastic. I love it. Okay, so one of the things I wanted to ask you... Well, actually, some of the kids who wrote in, I asked on Facebook and in our premium member forum, I asked, "What do you want me to ask Jeanne Birdsall when she's on the show?" And one of the questions was, "What books inspired your writing?" And I think we all know Little Women, of course, but then you mentioned The Bastables and what else did you just now mentioned? Jeanne Birdsall (17:01): C. S. Lewis's Narnia series. And it doesn't really make sense that they inspired me... I mean, The Penderwicks are not an alternate reality or anything like that, and certainly I'm not comparing myself to C. S. Lewis. He inspired me. I mean, the guys, he's just... But what he did of being able to want children to live in that world was so inspiring and magical. I remember being in fifth grade and all in the recess with my friend Susan, and we would say, "If we just go past that tree, we'll be in Narnia." And we knew it wouldn't happen, but somehow we weren't absolutely positive it wouldn't happen, that in-between, and that's what he's done. That's what he did for people. (17:58): Also, The Secret Garden was a big influence just in terms of what it's like to have space and have beautiful things around you when you're a child. When I was writing the first book, I'd said it's a love letter to the books I loved as a child. Sarah Mackenzie (18:24): Dylan is 13, and she wants to know if The Penderwicks are based on your life or are they more a life you wanted to live or something else? Jeanne Birdsall (18:35): They were much closer to a life I wanted to live. They were absolutely not based on my life. Sarah Mackenzie (18:42): Okay. Finnegan is seven and wants to know who your favorite character in this series is. He says Skye is his favorite character. Jeanne Birdsall (18:52): Finnegan is a boy, and Skye is his favorite character? Sarah Mackenzie (18:55): Yep. Jeanne Birdsall (18:57): I always have the same answer, which is that I can't have a favorite, but what I can say is the ones that I relate to the best. So, with now six siblings, Rosalind is not very much like me at all. I had to make up a lot because my older sister, she's the older sister I would've loved to have had. Skye... I mean, there have to be parts of me, and there are other... Well, I couldn't have written her. (19:26): Skye and Batty, Batty's probably closest to me, but Skye is my temper. And also, the tendency to see the world in black and white, that's me. Kicking the trees when she gets annoyed, that's definitely me. My temper has been moderated as I've gotten older, but it took a lot of work to get it there. And it was only because I kept breaking my toes, punching or kicking the trees. And Jane, of course is just, she is the most fun to write because she's a writer, and so I just give her all my opinions. Sarah Mackenzie (20:05): Yeah, I love it. Jeanne Birdsall (20:05): And also- Sarah Mackenzie (20:06): She might be my favorite. Jeanne Birdsall (20:07): And also, the mother's death influenced her in a different way that made her less scarred in a way. Rosalind had to become the mom, and Skye lost her anchor in the family. And Batty never had a mom until Iantha came in, but Jane dove into her imagination, which is of course what I did. But as the rest of the family heals around her, Jane still has her imagination. So, she was fun to write because there were no real central scars with her, and the biggest thing she learns is don't trust cute boys on skateboards. Sarah Mackenzie (20:44): Which is an important lesson to learn. Jeanne Birdsall (20:45): It is an important lesson to learn for all of us. Sarah Mackenzie (20:50): Both Heather and Viv have a similar question. I know Heather's 11, I'm not sure how old Viv is, but they want to know if you, based any of the sisters off of real people. Viv says, "How did you make our characters so relatable and realistic?" Jeanne Birdsall (21:06): Well, I took pieces of me from them. I don't base anybody on a real person, but I definitely, for some characters, have touchstone that I use as a central magnet, so that I can know if the character is getting too far away from that person. With Mr. Penderwick, my husband does that for me. He's that kind of parent, and I have a great story that I always tell about him. My husband's children, who are now mine too, I'm just so lucky, they're quite grownup. They're mid to late 30s now. (21:46): David was visiting us, oh, I guess about 10 years ago. And he and I were standing at the kitchen window looking into our back garden. And my husband, his dad, was on the bench reading a newspaper with it in his face. And our dog, Cagney, was still quite young, at the time was racing around and around and running and around and around and barking and barking and barking and barking and barking, barking. And David told to me, he said, "Now you know what our childhood was like." (22:12): And it was just exactly what I wanted for Mr. Penderwick. And when David said that, it nailed what I'd put into Mr. Penderwick is that ability to keep his children safe, that they always know he's there. They always know he won't let them do anything so terrible but that she doesn't monitor their every moment. He gives them a lot of freedom. Sarah Mackenzie (22:38): We've talked, we've had an episode before on the podcast about parents in literature that inspire us as parents. And so, I had a guest Greta Eskridge on. We were talking about the different parents in literature who inspire us as we're reading these books with our kids, make us think, "I want to be like that." And I felt that way several times about Mr. Penderwick because he's got that- Jeanne Birdsall (22:59): Ooh. Sarah Mackenzie (22:59): ... steady, rock solid, completely loving nature. And yet, just like you said, he doesn't micromanage his kids or try to keep them from making any mistakes at all. Jeanne Birdsall (23:09): Right. Yeah. We have two grandchildren now, daughters who live only 20 minutes from us. Again, lucky, lucky, lucky. They're seven and five, and it's so much fun to see him with them. When it's just the two of us, my husband and me with the girls, I just get on the floor and play. I become another six-year-old with them. But he always gives these very calm ways of figuring out directing things, but without controlling them. I guess that's what he does. And so, he'll just pick a step on a different path, and they'll go whoosh along that path, and I'm just clapping along behind everybody. Sarah Mackenzie (24:00): Lisa Gustafson wants to know how you choose which viewpoint to write from. Jeanne Birdsall (24:05): The first book was The Family. They're a chorus, and the whole real... It took me a while. It may be took me until I was reading, writing the second book to understand that what I was always writing about was family. The whole point of the books for me is that if you have this healthy family, these healthy people who love each other, which is Mr. Penderwick and his four daughters and the girls, that that family continues to expand. (24:36): So, the normal... I shouldn't say normal, but the more usual way of writing the first book would've been to have it be Jeffrey's book. And that Jeffrey needs to be rescued from his life, and he finds a way, and then Jeffrey gets rescued, then the book is done. But what I was writing about was, "Let's make this family bigger," which is what I believe in. That you keep a safe enough hub and if you take good enough care of yourself, meaning myself, that then more and more people will come in. (25:06): So, the first book was the family as a chorus, bringing in Jeffrey and setting up this platform and adding people. And then, the second book was Rosalind, because I needed to let Rosalind off the hook. I didn't want her to be... I wanted her to go into her teen years just being able to be a teenager and not a mom. So then, they bring in Iantha, and so now the family's bigger. (25:36): And then, the third book, I actually send Rosalind away. I send her. She's so free now. She doesn't have to be there. And then, it's Skye's book because she has to figure out how to take care of Batty when she'd rather basically just let her drown. And so, that's leading then to the fourth book, which is Batty's book because she's 11. And for Batty to really dedicate herself to music, to find her voice, which of course is a metaphor. And for Batty and Skye to start becoming friends and just start becoming friends so that the fifth book can happen. Sarah Mackenzie (26:15): Okay. It goes back to what you were just saying about Mr. Penderwick, about him directing things but not being controlling about them. I was thinking, when you said that, about a conductor and a symphony and how a conductor keeps everything on the right path but doesn't actually control the instruments. He just helps people know what to do. And so then, I was thinking about that, and then you started talking about whose journey each book is about and what they're facing, I guess. And it just felt to me like, "Yeah, I can see it all." And you started even saying it was the chorus. The first book was the chorus. I've got this musical metaphor playing around in my mind now, and I can see it. Jeanne Birdsall (26:52): Oh, good. I like musical metaphor, but I didn't finish that thing of the family expanding. But then, the family does keep expanding through the third and the fourth book. I mean... Oh, and then can I just talk about Nick Geiger? In terms of people based on real people, Nick Geiger, Tommy's older brother, showed up just as in the second book, just as an older brother, because Tommy needed an older brother because if Tommy were an older brother, he and Rosalind would've just punched each other out early on, so he needed to be a younger brother. (27:27): Then, as I was writing the fourth book, my real nephew, Nick, who his last name was not Geiger, was had graduated from Penn State in the ROTC program and was going to Afghanistan. And I knew he was in ROTC, I'm just not that logical about things like that. It just didn't occur to me. He's going to Afghanistan, he's going to war. And at that point, I figured out Nick Geiger's timeline and realized he too could be in Afghanistan during this time. (28:01): So, I have known my nephew Nick since he was little, but he lived in Pennsylvania. I was never that close to him, and this was this incredible opportunity to ask him things. First. I wrote to him, I said, "Is this okay if I do this?" And he said, "Yes." And then, I would email him when he was in Afghanistan. Sarah Mackenzie (28:19): Wow. Jeanne Birdsall (28:21): And what I found is that if I wrote him and said, "How are you?" I wouldn't hear. If I send him a box of food, I wouldn't hear. But if I wrote and said, "Are you hot or are you cold?" I'd get an answer right away, which is very interesting. And the smells and things like that, and none... I don't think I used any of it in the book, but it just helped me know who Nick Geiger would be and what kind of shape he'd be when he came home. (28:51): I think if I hadn't been talking to Nick and talking to his mother all the time, it wouldn't have occurred to me that the first thing that Nick would do is just sleep and eat for days. I wouldn't do that, but they were always hungry. It was just that. And then, this summer, my real nephew, Nick got married, so that Nick Geiger in the fifth book could show up grown up and already married. Sarah Mackenzie (29:14): What was the hardest part about writing the series? Or were any of the books harder to write than the other? That's another question I'm curious about. Jeanne Birdsall (29:22): The fifth book was the hardest technically, because my tendency, and I wrote an entire first draft this way and sent it to my editor and I had to redo it, was to make Lydia be pretty much just the observer and narrator of the older girls' stories, because the older girls were still... their stories were so primary to me, and they were what had to be gotten to the point where I wanted them to be. (29:52): And Lydia had no story. And that, of course, made a terrible book, so that was technically difficult than to go back there. And when I was talking about getting to know Lydia, I really had to go through that whole process. And then, when my editor said, "No," very sweetly, and I went, "Oh, my gosh, she's right," then I could go back, and then I had to get to know Lydia even more. (30:16): Technically, that was most difficult. Emotionally, the fourth book was rough. That was really rough because I had to live with Batty through that. It's the only way to write about that because that kind of pain, because I have to go in, and I feel it like it's almost like method acting. These actors that remember their own tragedy to act tragedy, it's like that. Her whole stomach knot was still my go-to anxiety. So I had to live through her anxiety and her loneliness. That was difficult. It was a tremendous relief to finish that book. Sarah Mackenzie (30:57): Yeah, I would imagine. Well, so something you just said was that you wrote a whole first draft and you sent it to your editor, and she... Right? I think you mentioned it. Jeanne Birdsall (31:08): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (31:08): Editor was a she? Okay. Basically said like, "We're going to start again." I love pointing out to kids because of course, all writers wish that the first thing that came out of our pens or our keyboards was magical, that the revision is where the writing really happens. But I'm curious to know what that felt like when your editor came back and said, "Okay, we're going to try this again." Jeanne Birdsall (31:29): Well, first of all, what she kept saying to me is that, and what I realized right away, is that the architecture was all there. I mean, everything that happened was there, all the characters and everything, but it had to be things happening with Lydia. If there was a story about a dog in the book, it had to be Lydia's interaction with the dog. Sarah Mackenzie (31:49): I see. Jeanne Birdsall (31:49): It felt like- Sarah Mackenzie (31:49): Okay. Jeanne Birdsall (31:51): Yeah, it felt like I'd been an idiot. And I basically beat myself up a lot about it. I'm lucky that I have a wonderful relationship with my editor. She has the ability to get inside the book and get inside of what I'm trying to do and help me do better what I'm trying to do as opposed to the kind of editors. And these exist that somewhere in the back of their brain think, "Well, if this were my book, I'd write it this way." And then- Sarah Mackenzie (32:24): Sure. Jeanne Birdsall (32:24): ... they try to get you to do that. And Michelle has done all the books with me. She's as invested with these people as I am. She had her son years ago, and he's growing up on these books and his names in them, so it's never a slap in the face or I never get angry or anything. I agree with 98% of what she says, and the stuff I don't agree with. I just go, "No." And I tell her why, and she says, "Let me think about it." And then, she comes back and says, "You're right." Sarah Mackenzie (32:58): I love it. Okay. So, you have a really good working... And I would imagine by the end of the five books, you know how to work with each other, right? Jeanne Birdsall (33:04): Yes. But also in terms of children, I happen to be the kind of writer who loves revision. I'm working on a book now, the first non-tender with novel, and it's going to be just a one book, no more series for a while. And I don't like building the architecture. That first rush of, "Oh, I can do whatever I want," is too much for me, too many possibilities. I love it when that's all in place. And then, I can really start with the emotions and the funny stuff in the conversations. That's what I love the most, so I'm actually a revision-driven writer, which is lucky for me. Sarah Mackenzie (33:41): So, that first draft is almost like a relief to get it done, because then you have the architecture there and you're like, now I can really start playing with it and with their emotions? Jeanne Birdsall (33:49): Yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (33:49): Well, not playing with their emotions, but exploring their emotions and writing through their journey and all that good stuff. Jeanne Birdsall (33:54): Right. Sarah Mackenzie (33:56): Okay. That was a question I was going to ask you is if you are planning on working on any other series or books. So, you just answered that for me. No series for a while, but you are working on another novel? Jeanne Birdsall (34:05): Yeah. No series for a while, because in hard cold facts, that series, well, it took me 20 years. Now, because I know how to write books, it would take me 16 years. And I am about to turn 67, so right away you can see, "Oh," I mean, I don't particularly want to go into another series now and lock myself in for literally the rest of my life, but I'm not going to say I'm not going to do. And if I'm 80 and still feel vibrant and have all my novels, I can say, "Well, I'll write to a hundred, but..." (34:39): While I was writing The Penderwicks books, I had ideas for other novels, and I've been having them, I feel like they're backed up in the queue, so I'm letting them out one at a time now. And that's fun. It's fun. It's fun to know that The Penderwicks, they're safe. They're where I want them. People ask if I miss writing about them, and I can say, "No," that's a simple answer. But for me, the characters exist in my head. For me, they don't exist in the books, so for me, they're still where they've always been, if that makes sense. Sarah Mackenzie (35:21): So, with the book five... Again, listeners, book five, The Penderwicks, at last, releases today. You can get it anywhere books are sold. And I'm curious, Jeanne, what you're most excited about with the release of book five? Jeanne Birdsall (35:34): When I was a child reader, and even now as a grownup reader, I don't want to read just one Trollope, read a whole bunch of Trollope altogether. Because I conceive this as one story and because when I read series when I was a kid, I'd read them all as one story, I've been looking forward to getting to interact with the readers whose experiences sitting down and for the first time reading books one through five. (36:06): Basically, I'm looking forward to the seven- and eight-year-olds talking to them in about 10 years. I have one wonderful, wonderful young woman who came to meet me when the fourth book came out and gave me a letter. And we've since then become good friends. She's 21 or 22 now, and she read the first book when she was 10, so she grew up with them. Her experience is that, and I get to talk to her about that. (36:40): She read the fifth book, and her experience of it was as a grownup's experience of it now. And she, I think, and I don't want to read too much into this, maybe she'd say I was wrong, but I think that each time she read the book, the book says, as the girls got older, she wanted to return to the feeling she had when she was 10, and Jane was 10 in the first book. And in the last book, she was grown up, and so were the older sisters. And that was such a different experience for her. (37:16): What I'm wondering is that if a child who picks up the whole series now will more easily, because they'll read them maybe it was within a month, maybe within a week, maybe six months, whether they'll more easily make that shift to Lydia, who is now the 11-year-old at Arundel in the last book. Sarah Mackenzie (37:35): Yeah, that will be interesting. And it... I mean, Little Women, I might be getting this wrong, but I guess Little Women, Little Men, Jo's Boys similar, right? Because they start as children, older children, but children in Little Women. And then, you go all the way through Jo as a mother, and I think- Jeanne Birdsall (37:59): Right. Sarah Mackenzie (37:59): ... I read them all back to back. I think they think might've even been in a single volume, which is why I'm hesitating to say. Jeanne Birdsall (38:05): Well, Anne of Green Gables does the same thing. Sarah Mackenzie (38:08): Right. Jeanne Birdsall (38:09): She ends up doing that. What's interesting is, in both of those cases though, with Louisa May Alcott and Ellen Montgomery, I just read a brand new biography of Montgomery that's coming out, I think in June, that neither of those women wanted to keep writing about those characters. Louisa May Alcott rather famously didn't want to write Little Women at all. She wanted to write grownup novels. There was a book called Moods that's very hard to find. She wanted to write these rather symbolic things for grownups, and she wrote Little Women just as Little Women. (38:48): And then, it was the first half of what we now think of as Little Women, and then she was pressured into writing the second half. She must have been really annoyed by the time she was writing Little Men and stuff. What's very interesting to me is that both those authors and Montgomery was tired of writing about Anne, which is like, "Oh geez, do I have to?" Sarah Mackenzie (39:11): Oh, I don't think I realized that. Okay. Jeanne Birdsall (39:13): Yeah, I didn't either until I read this biography that I followed their example, except that I wanted to do that, and I wondered the irony of that. I wanted to see them grow up. Sarah Mackenzie (39:28): So, several of your fans asked if there is a place they can send fan mail to you, if they can send a letter to you, is there a place they can send something in the mail? Jeanne Birdsall (39:38): They can send the letter care of the Broadside Bookshop, and I think you're going to put a link up for that. Sarah Mackenzie (39:46): I will, yes. Jeanne Birdsall (39:48): They're several blocks from me, and they will tell me, and I'll go pick it up. Sarah Mackenzie (39:53): Perfect. We'll put their address in the show notes. So, if your kids want to send something to Jeanne, they can send it to Broadside Bookshop. But you probably... I'm guessing that you don't have a whole lot of spare writing time to write back to fans. Am I right when I guessed that? Jeanne Birdsall (40:07): You're very right, and thank you for bringing that up. No, I have very little writing time. The mail is wonderful, but I can't focus enough my writing energy on to write letters back. I'm rude. Basically, just tell everybody I'm very rude to answer the letters, but it's still nice to get them. Sarah Mackenzie (40:27): Well, I think we all would rather that you write us another book to read anyway, so I'm good with that. I know there's got to be a limit to your writing energy, and so the time you spend writing as many books as we can get from you, we would love to read, so we're happy with that. Jeanne Birdsall (40:44): Thank you. Sarah Mackenzie (40:45): Okay, so one final question before we go. For all of the writers listening, our young and old aspiring writers, those of us who are trying to write stories and hope that somebody will read them someday, do you have any tips or advice or do you have a favorite book that really helped you learn to structure your stories or something that you would love to tell us? Jeanne Birdsall (41:05): I only have one answer for this because it's the way I did it, which is to just read voraciously. The written language, the way that you tell us a story in written language is different than oral language. If some things are longer, some things are shorter, there's a different rhythm, there're different words to use. You have to learn that language before you can start creating in it. And the only way to do that is to read lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of books. The language will seep into you. (41:47): It's almost like if you want to speak French, the easiest way is to go over to France and listen to everybody. But then, the clue is, as you're reading, reading lots and lots and lots of books is to at some point, start paying attention to the ones you like the best. Even if you're rereading the ones, you'll go back and reread and just enjoy doing that. But then, at some point think, "Well, what is it I like about these books? Why am I rereading this book? Why did I read that other book only once? Why couldn't I get past the first chapter of that other book?" (42:23): And at that point, you'll already be making decisions about how you're going to write. It's a discipline like anything else, like music, like dance, like anything else, people think because they can speak, they can write a book, and that's just not true. But the good thing about my method is that you get to read lots of books. Sarah Mackenzie (42:44): Exactly. Jeanne Birdsall (42:47): And that's pretty painless, I think. Sarah Mackenzie (42:48): Yeah, absolutely. I was going to say that has got to be the most delicious writing advice, I think, because I think, "Oh, good, then it all counts." Everything we're reading counts, right? When we're trying to write? Jeanne Birdsall (43:02): Oh, everything you read counts. The only thing that doesn't count... I mean, it can count, and I shouldn't be saying this to kids, but the only thing that doesn't count is when you're being forced to read something you don't want to read for school. And I hope that doesn't happen too much to these kids, but even then you can learn by what is it about that really drives you nuts? Why didn't you like reading it? Can I say one more thing? Sarah Mackenzie (43:27): Please do. Jeanne Birdsall (43:28): About wanting to be a writer. I think the transition that has to happen, and this is a transition that a lot of people don't make, and you can actually, if you have friends who will write, you can see them not make it. There's this point where people want to be a writer because they want to express what's in them, and they want to get it on paper, and they want to make themselves more visible by putting themselves on paper. (43:55): That's an initial instinct. But when you really become a writer is when your impulse is to communicate with other people, and that that's really a whole different thing. What I wanted to do, and I think I've done it, is to be part of the conversation that helped, that started with E. Nesbit, Edward Eager, C. S. Lewis, Elizabeth N. Wright, Eleanor Estes. And then, I'm talking back to them and saying, "Thank you for this. I love this part," but I'm also talking forward to the people who are reading my books. (44:31): And then I tell children, "Maybe you'll be part of the conversation too, but that you'll be talking back to me someday." And that's really what all when you study literature, blah, blah in English programs, blah, blah. I mean, that's really what you study is where did Shakespeare come from? Did he come from just out of nowhere? No, he had some influences, but then who started using him? By the time you get to Jane Austen, you know who she's read that you know that she's making fun of Richardson in some ways. And then, you go forward to Bronte, you go to Gaskell, and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. (45:15): So, that's when you want to not just put yourself on paper, but to become part of this magnificent conversation over the centuries, that's when you'll feel like there's nothing else you can do and you have to sit down, you'll do it If it kills you. Sarah Mackenzie (45:35): She's pretty fabulous, right? Remember, your kids can meet Jeanne and ask her their own questions in RAR Premium at our Family Book Club live. Next month, go to RARPremium.com and get RAR Premium to join us, and you'll also get our very fabulous Family Book Club guide. These are very robust, fabulous. You could use them during your school year to replace whole parts of your curriculum. But in the summer, they're just absolutely utterly wonderful ways to connect with your kids through books in a very memorable, enjoyable, casual way. (46:10): I should mention too that Penderwicks is heavily influenced by Little Women, of course, Four Sisters and a Very Interesting Boy and all that. And this summer, our Mama Book Club in RAR Premium is reading Little Women, and we're just making all kinds of connections between reading The Penderwicks with our kids and reading Little Women on our own. And then, we're going to have a watch party of the 2019 movie by Greta Gerwig. I love that version. We're going to do that in RAR Premium later this month. (46:39): You really want to join us? Go to RAR Premium.com or just text my name S-A-R-A-H to the number 33777. Now, let's hear from some kids about what they're reading and loving lately. Drake (47:00): Hi, my name is Drake. I live at Tennessee. My favorite book is Harry Potter because he is very brave and he goes on adventures. I am eight years old. Thank you. Sarah Mackenzie (47:14): What's your name? Broddy Pollard (47:15): Brody Pollard. Sarah Mackenzie (47:16): Where do you live? Broddy Pollard (47:18): Tennessee. Sarah Mackenzie (47:18): How old are you? Broddy Pollard (47:19): Six years old. Sarah Mackenzie (47:21): What's your favorite book? Broddy Pollard (47:22): It's the Circus Zip. Sarah Mackenzie (47:24): Why? Broddy Pollard (47:26): Because it classes in the animals hide, and they run away. Diana (47:34): Hi, my name is Diana. I'm from Annapolis, Maryland. I'm six years old, and my favorite story is Princess and the Crocodile. I like the parts when the crocodile says, "Eat." He is her pet at first, and then he's going to let her get away. And then, she says no biting her family. And then, at the end, he bites them and ties them all up, and she comes home and forgives them. Naomi (48:15): I am Naomi, and I'm three years old, and I'm from Annapolis, Maryland. Sarah Mackenzie (48:24): And what's your favorite part? Naomi (48:30): Watching the elephant hatches the egg because he's faithful and kind. Evelyn (48:34): Hi, my name is Evelyn. I'm nine years old, and I live in Annapolis, Maryland. My favorite series is 100 Cupboards because it's just really funny, and I like all the action and everything that happens in the book. Anna (48:51): My name is Anna. I live in Carmel, Indiana, and I'm six years old. And I recommend reading the book Narnia because it points to children who don't know Jesus to Jesus. Lydia (49:10): Hi, my name is Lydia. I'm eight years old. I live in Annapolis, Maryland, and I like The Little Princess. I like it because it's really sweet and she's really, really kind. I like how she's treated like a princess at first, and then she's treated badly as if she's not a princess. And then, she finds a friend and lives somewhere else other than the bad orphanage. Avia (49:38): Hi, my name is Avia. I'm seven years old. I'm from California, and my favorite book is Mother Bruce because it's about a bear who likes eggs, but when he made this dish, the eggs turned into baby geese. Onyx (49:56): Hi, my name is Onyx and I am six years old, and I came from California. My favorite book is Baby-Sitters Little Sister. I like it because it's somebody's birthday, and her name is Karen. I like the girl named Karen, and she's the main character. Sarah Mackenzie (50:27): Thank you kids. I hope you enjoyed this best of episode. I adore Jeanne, and I cannot wait to read The Penderwicks with my kids this summer. I hope you do too and that you join us, and I'll be back in two weeks, same time, same place. In the meantime, you know what to do. Go make meaningful and lasting connections with your kids through books.