Best of RAR: Is My Child Dyslexic?

Sarah Mackenzie (00:05): Hey, hey, Sarah Mackenzie here, and this is the Read-Aloud Revival, the podcast that helps your kids fall in love with books and helps you fall in love with homeschooling. (00:17): Today on the podcast, I'm sharing one of our more popular episodes. I hear about this episode every time I travel to a homeschool conference without fail. At least one person comes up to me and says, "Dyslexia was not even on my radar, and then I listen to your podcast episode with Marianne Sunderland." Here's the deal. Most of us don't really understand what dyslexia is or what it looks like, so we don't know the signals to look for. We don't know what to do if our kids do show those signs of having a dyslexic brain. So today, I'm replaying that infamous episode with Marianne because it is so, so good. (00:57): Way more kids are dyslexic than we previously knew. And this is not bad news, because what we know is that a dyslexic brain is not a disorder. We used to think of it as a learning disability or a learning disorder. Dyslexia is no such thing. Nothing needs fixing. It means God made your kid's brain, and very likely your brain or your husband's brain, because dyslexia is genetic. So God made that brain a dyslexic brain in a way that processes language differently. And what that means is that we should be teaching dyslexic brains in a way that makes sense to dyslexic brains, right? We should be teaching this child the way God made their brain. And so this is really good news. (01:40): I cannot emphasize enough that if you have any academic frustrations with your child of any age that you listen through this episode, even if dyslexia is currently nowhere on your radar, even if you're like, well, my kid can read. Listen anyway. Just listen. See what you think, because it might actually shine some light on something. And what I've heard time and time and time again from listeners is that this episode was a breakthrough in their own child's academic career because it really helped shed light on some things and helped them get the help they needed. So listen in, or if you have a friend that's struggling academically with a kid, send her this episode. Say, "Hey, listen in. I don't know if this is going to help, but it's worth a listen." All right, without further ado, here is that episode with Marianne Sunderland. (02:34): What do Henry Ford, Walt Disney and Albert Einstein have in common? Let's add a few to the list. How about Hans Christian Anderson, the Wright Brothers and Steve Jobs? If you answered that, they were all wildly successful people who had a tremendous impact on the world, you are right, but you're only half right. They were all also dyslexic and they accomplished great things, not despite their dyslexia, but at least in part because of it. What you think you know about dyslexia, in fact, may very well be wrong. So today we're diving in. Is your child dyslexic? And if so, what does that mean and what should you do about it? All of this and more right here on the Read-Aloud Revival. (03:32): Dyslexia. It's one of the things we are asked about most here at Read-aloud revival, and it's no wonder. Dr. Sally Shaywitz, co-director of the Yale Center for Dyslexia and Creativity, estimates that 80 to 90% of children who struggle with learning disorders have dyslexia. That's as many as one in five children. Also, dyslexia is highly genetic, which means if one of your kids struggles with dyslexia, it's pretty likely that another one may as well. (04:04): Today we're going to talk about the signs of dyslexia, how to spot it and what to do if you're pretty sure your child is indeed dyslexic. In order to do that, we're going to talk to someone who knows. So I called in Marianne Sunderland, and trust me, Marianne knows. Seven of her eight children are dyslexic, and she's become a passionate and educated advocate. She runs the website homeschoolingwithdyslexia.com, and she authored the book I recommend you read first if you suspect dyslexia in your home. It's called Dyslexia 101 by Marianne Sunderland. We'll have a link to it in the show notes. (04:43): There are a lot of misconceptions about what dyslexia is, so I asked Marianne to start our conversation by describing dyslexia to us so we have a better understanding right from the get go. Marianne Sunderland (04:56): There's a lot of misunderstandings about dyslexia, but at its core, it's inherited brain wiring difference that affects a person's language acquisition skills. So it's inherited, it's genetic, it's caused by a difference in brain wiring. And the weakness that you see is difficulty with the language. It could be with the written word, it could be hearing, it's processing delays or processing lags. (05:27): In the 1990s, Sally Shaywitz and her team at Stanford, they did a test, or they did functional MRIs on the brains of good readers and not so good readers, and they found that in the not so good readers, the impulse went from the eye with 2020 vision, the good readers, it went straight to the reading center of the brain. But the not so good readers, the path was much more convoluted. And so they discovered then that it really was just a brain wiring difference. (05:56): But what's cool about dyslexia and what they're finding out more and more now is a lot of the strengths that are associated with, on the flip side of that weakness where say they're not very detail oriented, they can also tend to be entrepreneurial or inventive engineering, like some of the famous names that you mentioned in the intro. This is a strength of dyslexia. And so it's kind of cool now people are starting to look at dyslexia, yeah, it's tough when they're learning to read and write, but as they get older, they're all full of surprises. Sarah Mackenzie (06:27): Yeah, I mean, at least for me, for so long I thought of dyslexia as a learning disorder, but it feels like what you're describing is more just of a learning difference. There's nothing wrong with a dyslexic brain, it's just wired differently than a non-dyslexic brain. Marianne Sunderland (06:39): Yes. One of the myths about dyslexia is that it's just low IQ. Whenever you see someone who's not spelling well, your first instinct is, oh, well, they can't spell, right? They're not that smart or whatever. But actually, they all almost always have average to above average intelligence. So it's not a true disability in the sense of the word. Sarah Mackenzie (06:59): Yeah, which makes sense because I think in your book Dyslexia 101, that was one of the things you mentioned was you have this bright child who can engage in conversation and is otherwise you know is very bright, and yet they struggle so much with these language processing, which shows up as having a hard time maybe learning to read or struggling to spell or write. And so then that's sort of the red flag. What are the warning signs, what should we be watching for that could be an indication that our child might be dyslexic. Marianne Sunderland (07:29): So you can Google lists and there's lists on my website, but essentially you're going to see an otherwise bright child struggling to master just the concepts of reading. So they may have trouble remembering their sounds, just the basic sounds, especially vowels. Vowels can be, especially I and E, short I and short E, those are very similar. So you'll see that you'll always see difficulties with spelling. (07:56): Now, a lot of kids struggle or they spell fanatically while they're young, but after a couple of years of instruction, they should be learning more how to remember sight words and so forth. So as a child gets older, you'll see reversals beyond first grade. So they're reversing their Bs and their Ds and their Ps and their Qs and whatever, and lots of other things. But some other things that you don't always recognize or you may not realize is things like tying shoes. Very difficult for kids with dyslexia. Rhyming is a big one. So being able to pick words that rhyme is always difficult. Prepositions, like up and down or yesterday and tomorrow, they have a really hard... I mean, my 17-year-old the other day got yesterday and tomorrow mixed up because she just wasn't thinking. It just kind of came out. So directions can be hard for them. (08:48): So there's lots of little things. And then when they're reading, you'll see them guessing a lot. So whereas a child with some phonics instruction is being taught to sound things out, they're looking at the shape, they're using context, they're like, well, it starts with a P and they guess. They'll also skip small words and sentences. And you'll see things like a sight word like, "The". They'll see it in a sentence and you'll say, "Well, that's the word, the." And then on the next line, when the comes up again, it's like they never saw it before. So you're laughing. Sarah Mackenzie (09:21): I'm nodding. Our listeners can't see me nodding vigorously over here. But because when I first realized that one of our kids was dyslexic, and more recently have realized that several of our children are dyslexic, the first time I realized it and I was looking at this list of possible warning signs, and one of them said something about calendars and sequential time being a difficult thing to learn. And I know with one of my kids, I mean, I really thought this child will never ever learn the 12 months of the year. Never. We can go over it. It does not matter how many times we go over it. And then of course you're saying the vowel sounds, and I just had a reading lesson this morning, but I just thought, wow, this is... Okay. I just reread Dyslexia 101, so I am feeling very energized and optimistic, but otherwise I would've gone, oh my goodness, I cannot believe we're still doing this. Marianne Sunderland (10:11): Yeah, and a very common... That's why it's so good to just, like you read the book and you're like, okay, these things are normal, because our kids are really trying hard. And one of the pitfalls of a child with dyslexia being in school, like a traditional school setting, is that teachers really aren't trained to understand dyslexia. It's no fault of theirs, it's just how education is designed. But they're often misunderstood. They look lazy or they're not trying or not paying attention. And the irony is they're really trying harder than any other kid. They're really, really trying to remember, they're trying to focus. A lot of kids with dyslexia also have some kind of focus struggle, whether it's ADD or ADHD. Somewhere between 40 and 60% of kids with dyslexia will struggle with that too. It's so important to just understand and be gracious, and we can talk more about that. But having homeschooled eight kids to read now and seven of them were dyslexic- Sarah Mackenzie (11:15): There's a special seat for you in heaven, I think. Marianne Sunderland (11:19): When my one non-dyslexic kid learned to read from Explode the Code, I seriously went in my room and just cried a little bit. I was like, oh my gosh. Sarah Mackenzie (11:28): Yeah, I hear other people say, "My child just taught themselves how to read." That's my mom says about me, in fact, and I don't remember learning how to read at all. And I thought maybe out of six I'd get one that could teach themselves how to read, but that didn't happen for me. Marianne Sunderland (11:42): And so that's how a lot of kids learn to read. You just give them a little instruction, a reading rich environment, read to them, and they learn to read. And I actually really thought... I was hard on myself. I thought I was doing things wrong, and especially because my oldest was dyslexic, and we had just started homeschooling, I got a lot of flack from well-meaning family, like maybe you should put them in school. And it was like, maybe I should, but can I share a story? Is this... Sarah Mackenzie (12:13): Please, yes. Marianne Sunderland (12:14): Okay, so when my oldest son was 10, or is he nine? Nine or 10? And we had four kids, we took a three-year sailing trip. So we rented out our house to some friends from church and we went sailing for three years. And it was funny because I really wanted to stay back and do reading tutoring. And my husband, who's dyslexic was like, "Eh, I learned to read, he's fine." Sarah Mackenzie (12:35): [inaudible 00:12:35] thinking, okay. Marianne Sunderland (12:38): But the people who rented our house had kids our kids ages, and they went to the local public school, and lo and behold, their oldest daughter had dyslexia and she was ridiculed in class. You would think, I mean, we live in a fairly upper middle class educated area, but this teacher came in and would make her read in front of the class and then embarrass her. Sarah Mackenzie (13:01): Oh, she was ridiculed by the teacher, not even by the students. Marianne Sunderland (13:04): By the teacher. Sarah Mackenzie (13:04): Wow. Yeah. Marianne Sunderland (13:05): And so we came back and I still had that thought, because we were still trying to teach them to read while we're out there, but I was like, okay, maybe schools don't have all the answers. And it was one little bit of info at a time to keep me on the path that we went on. And so now I'm here to say, "Hey, this is how it works." Sarah Mackenzie (13:27): I mean, every homeschool parent I think at one time or another goes, am I ruining my kids? Am I actually destroying their education by trying to do this myself? And first of all, that's such a normal feeling. We all feel that way, although we don't talk about it often enough, I think. But then to hear, we do tend to have that default of they would probably get a better education if it wasn't me teaching. So for you to have that experience where you found that actually what you were able to give your son at home was better than he might've gotten at school, very likely in this situation, is really encouraging, I think for a lot of us to go- Marianne Sunderland (14:09): It really was. It really gave me just enough strength to keep going. And I think that was, we got back when he was 12 and he learned to read that year. We used a great illustrated classics. You know what those are? Get them off eBay and stuff where they have big print and a picture on every other page. And someone said to me once, "I'm glad my kid was still dyslexic because they didn't read a bunch of junk." Yeah, that's right. They bypass a lot of the stuff you don't really want them to read. So it takes them so long to read, my library is sufficient. They don't have to scour the library. Sarah Mackenzie (14:46): Yeah. So in this episode, I'd love to just get into a few more nuts and bolts for people who are listening who think, wait a second, I think it's possible that one of my kids is dyslexic, or maybe more than one of my kids is dyslexic. And what I found, first of all listeners, I want to highly, highly recommend Marianne's book, Dyslexia 101. It's a quick read. I mean, I know as a busy mom, if I see a big old tome that's going to take me a long time to get through, I feel like it's one more thing to my to-do list. But I would suggest Dyslexia 101 is the first place you should go if you suspect dyslexia in your kids because it's quick, you can read it in an evening, it's practical and it's encouraging. (15:28): So whether or not you are thinking of your four-year-old, your eight-year-old, your 12-year-old, or your 16-year old right now as we're talking, this book is going to have some tools for you and next steps and some encouragement along the way. And actually that leads me into my next question, Marianne, which is, do kids grow out of dyslexia and can we talk about the genetic component for just a minute? Marianne Sunderland (15:50): No, kids don't outgrow it and they're not cured of it. So if you ever read something that says, we'll cure your child of dyslexia, run, because it's not a matter of being cured. It's a matter of just being taught systematically how to read. And so now my oldest son, I didn't use any Orton-Gillingham or a dyslexia approved curriculum. I used probably everything else, but I didn't use that because I didn't know it existed, but he learned to read. So all kids can learn to read. And then the genetic part of it is, I don't know, I think it's dominant. Because of my eight kids, seven are dyslexic. Sarah Mackenzie (16:31): I think probably out of my six, I'm pretty confident that four are dyslexic. I know for sure that two are pretty strongly dyslexic, and maybe five. I mean, I'm not really sure. I know that you mentioned this in your book that there are varying- Marianne Sunderland (16:46): Degrees. Sarah Mackenzie (16:47): Degrees. Thank you for that. I was looking for the word, couldn't find it. Varying degrees of dyslexia. Marianne Sunderland (16:52): So a lot of people who are more mildly dyslexic will get by in school, but it's very difficult. And so those people tend to feel like they're stupid, like why is it so easy for everybody else, it's hard for me. I have the whole range. I have a couple severely or profoundly dyslexic kids. One of them is 23 now and he's wildly successful, took his college fund and invested it, started a business. You can't even keep up with the kid. He has such a vision. And you know the thing? Oh my goodness, all through school, he was so social and I kept being like, sit down, pay attention. Sarah Mackenzie (17:33): You have have to write this essay. You have to compare Shakespeare to love in the Bible or... That poor kid. Firstborns. They're resilient because they have to be the Guinea pigs for all of us, right? Marianne Sunderland (17:47): Yes. I did a dyslexia simulation, I have one on my website during my... I was trained as a dyslexia tutor and I did this simulation and we have an office schoolroom, and he was behind me in the office and I was crying, and I just looked at him. I was like, "I am so sorry." I had no idea, because he'd be bored and I'd be like, "Read a book." Because that's what I used to do as a kid. And I didn't realize it's really hard for kids with dyslexia to read. And adults with dyslexia, they can learn to read. It doesn't go away. They probably will prefer things like audiobooks or podcasts or YouTube or things like that to learn. Although some become avid readers, it just depends on the person. Sarah Mackenzie (18:32): Well, that's one of the gifts of audiobooks, I think. I mean, I tell the story often of my son when we would do quiet reading time in the afternoon and I would send a couple of all my kids to go read in their rooms, but he wasn't reading on his own yet. So he just devoured the Red Wall series on audio. And what happens, I found this so often by talking to other parents too, and I'm wondering if this is your experience, Marianne, that these kids who are later readers because they're dyslexic, who have gotten a lot of audiobooks, have all this really good language inside of them. They've heard all this good language. So once they start reading, it's not like it takes the same amount of time to get from Frog and Toad to Robinson Crusoe or whatever. There's a shorter line between those two things. Marianne Sunderland (19:18): It's very true. I used to call it, well, I still kind of call it, middle school magic. It doesn't matter what you do with your kid, by middle school they'll be reading, like the penny drops. And I'm reading this book on unschooling and I'm thinking, have I been spinning my wheels this whole time? Should I have just waited well and gone to the park? (19:37): But yes, so they catch up really quickly. My oldest, I mean he excelled in English in high school, and that was this class I was the most worried about, but his vocabulary was off the charts. Because he would listen to books that I couldn't even follow, the Lord of the Ring series. And I was like, wait, who's that? And where's that person? And where's that? And he's just processing all of this information and building pictures in his head. Sarah Mackenzie (20:04): This is making me think, because I think we put a lot of pressure on ourselves as homeschooling parents to give our kids everything they're going to need to succeed, like whether or not we do a good job or not is going to impact the trajectory of their life. And to some degree, of course that's true. But I was just thinking about this the other day because my oldest is a freshman in college, actually, she's a sophomore now. She finished her freshman year a little early. We never really did a grammar program. Well, fast-forward now and here she is an English major with a concentration in editing and publishing. Even just when she graduated, she was still... I'm sorry, Audrey, I'm totally telling on you in this episode and you're going to hear it, I'm sure. (20:43): She was using commas like cupcake sprinkles is what I always thought of it. She would write this beautiful essay, like a really good essay, and then I think she would look at it and go, "Well, there should probably be some commas in here and I don't know how to use them, so I don't know where they should go." So she'd kind of sprinkle it throughout. So the summer between her graduation in college, she did one of those really skinny workbook things that's just like commas. I mean, I can't even remember what brand it was. It doesn't even matter. It was just one of those little workbooks that's like how to use commas. She did it in, I don't know, a week or something, on her own. And now she can use commas and she's doing just fine. (21:23): So it's one of those things where we kind of think we have to slave over all this curriculum for years and years and years to make sure our kids get it. And that's not always the case. Marianne Sunderland (21:31): It's not at all. (21:38): So four of my kids are adults now, and my 22-year-old, she's a senior in college, more mildly dyslexic, some ADD. And getting her to do math in college or in high school was like, I mean, I signed her up for a tutor and she'd come out of her room and be like, "I don't want to go," "I don't want to do my homework." And I was like, "You get in that car and you go to that tutor or you're paying for it." And she'd be like, "Oh, okay." And so off she went. I mean it got that bad. It was just like, oh my goodness. (22:12): Anyway, so she got through algebra in her senior year of high school and went on to college and doesn't she decide to be a kinesiology major and she needs all this math. But she was working at a physical therapist's office, and she'd been involved in dance and sports and stuff, and so she really wanted to be a physical therapist. And good grades were important because it's hard to get into the programs. And that kid went through, I think she took the placement test and needed to do algebra again. So she took algebra and advanced algebra and trigonometry or something and pre-calc and statistics, and aced them all. And I was like, huh, that's interesting because I couldn't barely get you to do enough math to graduate from high school. But it was all motivation. It was all- Sarah Mackenzie (23:03): Internal motivation, right? Marianne Sunderland (23:04): Yes. Sarah Mackenzie (23:04): Anything you couldn't have done for her, actually. Marianne Sunderland (23:07): No, I could not have. And so I really... I've seen it in all of my adult kids, just when they find their thing, they just take off. And so I have really been able to back off big time on my fear of not teaching commas or missing a period of history, or my boys are medieval, medieval. I'm like, "We should really study US history." "No, medieval, medieval." But I don't worry anymore, because I know this is sort of cliche, but if you raise your kids to like to learn, they're always going to be learning. And all of my adult kids, for all of my failures, and there were many, are lifelong learners. Sarah Mackenzie (23:45): So I think one of the fears that I have had, especially when I first had those first thoughts of I think maybe my kids, or a certain child or any of my kids, might be dyslexic, and I was worried that they wouldn't love reading because of course I want my kids to love reading. So how can dyslexia impact a child's love of reading, as far as you can tell? Marianne Sunderland (24:05): Well, really it has nothing to do with reading. It has to do with their teacher. So I was just reading, I don't know, I read a lot, but I think it was in my unschooling book, this Unschooled by Carrie McDonald. She was talking about a boy in school and he's in, I don't know, second grade, and he's labeled behind and he's getting assignments and reading became kind of a chore and almost a punishment, and you have to read before you can do anything fun. And that's the surest way to get your kids to hate reading. And kids with dyslexia, they do really well with graphic novels and things like that. So in comes like Dog Man, and I'm thinking, there's all these, they're cute, little graphic novels. And I was just like, okay, well they'll just hurry and get through that phase really quickly and get onto the good stuff. (24:59): And my 13-year-old just said to me, I don't know why you're making me read these chapter books. I just really like the graphic novels. And I'm thinking, okay. You could kind of project your worry onto your kids. And so how I have helped my kids to not feel that is to... I do believe that it's important to use a good reading program, and I do believe it's important to start when they're school age, maybe 5, 6, 7, whatever you choose to do, whatever suits your particular homeschool style. Use a program that works, Orton-Gillingham program, it's all about reading and all about spelling. Barton, Logic of English, those three are really good. They're open and go pretty much. So just do them consistently, three times a week and make it fun. And if you have to review the same thing over and over again, just do it. They will learn to read. And so just not stressing about it is super, super important. (25:56): And then most dyslexic kids love a good story. I mean even my older kids will come and sit in the living room, you've probably said this a thousand times, but they'll come out when I'm reading, I remember Red Wall was a family favorite. They'll come out and listen. And so that's another way. I remember when one of my daughters, she's 17 now, she's a writing type. She loves to write, very good with words. And she started listening to series of books from the library. And I remember her just walking out of her room and being like the characters, I can't remember the name of the series. It was like these animals, and I don't know if you mentioned it, I would remember, but she was absolutely blown away at the characters and the plot twists and... Sarah Mackenzie (26:42): Loving to actually physically read is very different from loving stories. What we really want are kids that love stories and can read, right? Marianne Sunderland (26:50): So basically, I have loads and loads of books all around the house that are readable. And I do require some quiet reading time, but I don't really say what they have to read. They can do whatever they want. But they often ends up being longer because they get into whatever they're doing. But letting them follow their interests, I've heard of kids who are real into sports, so their parents would get magazines for them or something so that they could read the stats. Following interests is huge, absolutely huge. (27:22): My second-oldest daughter taught herself to read. I'd given her some instruction, but she was struggling, but she loved animals and she was number two of many. So we go to the library and get all the books and come back home and I could read a little bit, but I didn't really have time to really dedicate to one kid's interests, have it like history or science or something. But she would sit down with those books and she basically cracked the code of reading because she wanted the information. Sarah Mackenzie (27:54): And once again, we're back at that internal motivation because she wanted to get it for herself. Marianne Sunderland (27:59): Yeah. So I really, really encourage parents not to stress. Your kids will read. I'm not a full on unschooler. I wouldn't really recommend not teaching them. I think it's important to have some instruction and that reading rich environment and limiting screen time and stuff like that. But yeah. Sarah Mackenzie (28:24): We'll get into a little bit more on the details of those Orton-Gillingham methods and why that works in our next episode, because listeners, I told you, I'm so interested in this topic and I know so many of you're interested that we're doing two episodes on dyslexia. But I do want to read, just underline the programs she mentioned because I know a lot of you are going to be going and looking for some. So All About Reading, Logic of English, and those are the two of that I've used, so those are the ones that stuck out to me. But Marianne, what was another? Marianne Sunderland (28:53): Barton, Susan Barton's reading program. Sarah Mackenzie (28:55): Yes, excellent. And it's interesting because the first time I thought, I think I have a kid who's dyslexic. I don't think he's going to learn reading the same way that I expected him to learn to read. I had tried all these different reading programs and he was nine... Let me think. He was about nine. He might've been a little... Eight and a half or something when I moved over to All About Reading and didn't know that it was because it was Orton-Gillingham or that it's especially good for dyslexic kids or anything. But that's the program. He was in the middle of All About Reading level three, and he went from reading Frog and Toad to reading these really long novels in this really short amount of time. And I remember thinking, this program is magic, and now I know why. Marianne Sunderland (29:43): And then whenever anyone says that to me, I ask, "Well, how old were they?" Because remember the middle school magic. We have to be really careful. People will say, "Oh, I tried this vision therapy thing," which dyslexia is not vision based. It's processing. And they'll be like, "Oh, I just couldn't believe it." And I'll say, "Well, how old were they?" And when they were 12 or 13, and I'm like, "That was middle school magic. That wasn't the program." Sarah Mackenzie (30:08): So then I think what I might be hearing you say then is that there's a couple ingredients. You need to read aloud a lot so that your kids want to read. They have that motivation to want to get good stories. They need a good systematic reading program that's good for dyslexic learners, that works with the way their brain is wired. And then they need time. They just need time. Marianne Sunderland (30:25): They do. Sarah Mackenzie (30:29): And also if you have a child that is kind of aware of their... Maybe a younger sibling is reading better than them or Sunday school, they realize, "Oh my gosh, these other kids are reading and I can't." I really am a strong believer in acknowledging that they're dyslexic. I wrote a children's book on it as well, because if you don't tell a kid that there's a reason why they're struggling, they're going to assume what everybody else is assuming, that they're not very smart. And that's a rotten way to grow up. And just explaining what it is and then explaining to them the strengths. And that if you're a Christian, like for my kids, I've told them you were created by God with a purpose. (31:14): I know that there have got to be listeners today who are listening thinking, oh my goodness, there are so many things in my head. Bells are ringing for them as far as what might be happening in their child's reading life, their child's learning life. And one of the things that was discouraging to me at the beginning of learning about dyslexia was finding out that it's, quote, unquote, best for dyslexic child to be remediated or get that systematic reading instruction that's really good for dyslexic kids starting at a young age. But what about those who are listening who have kids who are 12 or 14 or 15, and their parents are realizing, oh, I think you might need to learn a different way. What do you have to say for them? Is it too late? Did they mess it up? Marianne Sunderland (31:58): No. So there's a couple points. Let me just... One is if you feel like they need remediation, if you feel like they're reading and spelling still needs help, you could hire a tutor. You could do something like All About Reading. I recommend this program called Reading Horizons. It's an online Orton-Gillingham program and they have two levels. One for kids, I think four to nine, and one for 10 and up. The one for 10 and up is gold. There's a lot of people that like teaching textbooks. It's like teaching textbooks for reading. It's just systematic. There's no bunny rabbits and butterflies. It's just black and white, systematic. And I often run my kids through there, once they've learned to read, I'll just run them through and they learn all the rules. (32:48): So you can remediate an older child and you can offer them accommodations, which are things like audiobooks. It's things like assistive technology where they can speak their papers or you can scribe for them. It's never ever too late. If you realize that your child has been struggling because of dyslexia, learn about it together. It's part of school. Just start telling them about what dyslexia is and the famous dyslexics, like you were mentioning, and give them the support that they need. (33:23): My one son who's profoundly dyslexic, the older one, he was doing his Eagle Scout project and he would come to me, because it was a lot of paperwork and he was like, "Mom, can you help me with this?" And I'm like, "Look, bud, if you're going to be an Eagle Scout, you need to do your own notebook." And his tutor was like, "Oh my goodness." And she was helping him to fill out all this paperwork. And I came to learn later that all of the kids who got Eagle Scout, all of their parents helped them with the paperwork, whether they were dyslexic or not. And I was like, oh. (33:57): So you really cannot help a kid too much. When they don't want help, believe me, they're going to tell you they don't want any help. Right? Sarah Mackenzie (34:06): That's true. Marianne Sunderland (34:06): So I would rather err on the side of helping too much as opposed to not helping enough and leaving them stranded. You know what I mean? And isn't that the struggle of homeschooling? It's like, am I doing too much and enabling them to be lazy? But with kids with dyslexia, if they need help, I would definitely help them. And just oftentimes, writing can be difficult for older, dyslexic kids. They might have all the ideas and stuff, but it's actually getting it out of their head onto paper, sometimes called dysgraphia. Dysgraphia, it's like difficulty with writing. And it could be due to small motor issues, it could be due to large motor issues, but a lot of times it's just processing. It's that language processing, it's trying to get the words out of the brain and onto paper. And so a lot of times, like a graphic organizer or a web, the wheels, idea wheels or whatever, those kinds of visuals tools can be really helpful for older kids. (35:05): But again, using a writing program that's systematic, which many are, you have the brainstorming stage, and then you have the outlining stage, and then you build a thesis and just teaching them systematically and using the same system over and over. I kind of apply the Orton-Gillingham principles of teaching reading to other subjects so that you're just breaking things down into little pieces and teaching each specific thing and letting them get good at it. So my kids did IEW for years, and at the beginning I would write everything, basically. I'd write the outlines. They would say- Sarah Mackenzie (35:44): So they're telling it to you and you are writing it for them. Yes, yes. Marianne Sunderland (35:47): And I would type their papers, and then gradually I would have them speak their papers, and then they got better at typing, then they would type them. And then I'd have them do the outlines themselves. And I gradually released more responsibility to them as they were ready. And those kids are great writers now. Sarah Mackenzie (36:10): Okay, so you mentioned two things in there. That you can't help your child too much, which I think is really a watershed idea for homeschooling parents to hold onto, because we tend to think that we're doing our kids a disservice when we're helping them. But Andrew Pudewa, speaking of IEW, the founder of IEW once told a story about how he was at a school doing a writing training, and one of the students wasn't writing. And Andrew's walking around the room because they're supposed to be, I don't know, brainstorming or whatever. I'm not sure what phase they were in, what stage they were in the program. (36:44): But anyway, a student raises his hand, says, "I don't know what to write." And so Andrew tells him, "Oh, okay, write this." And tells him what to write. And the teacher who was in the room said, "You can't do that. You're doing his work for him." And Andrew said, "Well, I'm here to teach him to write. So now I'm just teaching him how to write. I'm teaching him what to write." That's what it is. (37:00): And so in our head, we kind of thought that too, right? The first time I heard that story, I thought, well, you can't do the work for him. And then you realize, what is teaching? We're modeling. We're showing them what to do. Marianne Sunderland (37:11): You're getting the [inaudible 00:37:12] going, you got to get the kindling going so that the rest of the fire can go and whatever it takes, kind of like the birds and the bees. I just give them a little bit at a time. If they're asking, I'll keep telling, but I don't give too much away at first. Just kind of wait until they ask. Sarah Mackenzie (37:31): So good. Well, we are going to dive in again in the next episode. Before we do, what is just your one takeaway for parents from this episode who are listening and thinking, okay, what's the first step? I'm going to tell you that your takeaway should be to go read Marianne's book, Dyslexia 101. We'll have a link in the show notes. You can find it online. Marianne, what would you like to say to- Marianne Sunderland (37:52): I would really say to get educated. Really, I think getting educated about dyslexia is so important because our kids are really bright and they have a lot of potential and we don't want to waste a lot of time and energy trying to pound them into these square pegs, so to speak, into a round hole. Understanding how they learn, understanding their strengths. And you know your kid better than anybody, so you're totally way ahead of the game. Sarah Mackenzie (38:23): Good stuff, right? Now, I did a follow-up episode with Marianne. It's episode 176, Homeschooling with Dyslexia. So if you are feeling seen in this episode, if anything in this episode resonated and you thought, oh, now I need more, head to episode 176 next and listen to that one. And Marianne's really going to peel back the curtain on why homeschooling is such a fabulous option for kids with dyslexia. And then what you might want to adjust or do differently if you do suspect dyslexia in your kids. And I cannot highly recommend enough her website homeschoolingwithdyslexia.com. So head there for any more resources or help that you need. Okay? Now let's hear from Read-aloud Revival Kids as to what they've been enjoying lately. Rowan (39:12): Hello, my name is Rowan Daniel Vanderver, and I'm nine-years-old and I'm from Fort Gibson, Oklahoma. The oldest town in Oklahoma. And my favorite books in the world are the Lord of the Ring series. I like these books because they're very full of adventure and they can be breathtaking sometimes. Noah (39:35): Hi, I'm Noah and I'm living Wisconsin. And my favorite book is Mercy Watson Goes for a Ride, because Mercy has an oink and she threw out a truck and she went bonk right onto her head. Sarah Mackenzie (40:01): Oh, no. Was she okay? Noah (40:04): Yeah, I know. She was good, but she bonked it out. Joseph (40:14): Hello, my name is Joseph and I live in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. I like the Island of the Blue Dolphins because the main character has to be brave and creative to survive on her own on an island. Damien (40:31): Hello, my name is Damien and I live in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. And I like Frindle because it is about Nick Allen who makes up a word that is called Frindle and it means pen. But he and his friends don't say pen, they say Frindle instead. Sarah Mackenzie (40:58): Thank you kids. I hope you enjoyed this best of episode. I'll be back in a couple of weeks with a special guest who's never been on the show before. Who could it be? Well, you'll find out in two weeks. In the meantime, go make meaningful and lasting connections with your kids through books.