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Wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC podcast. Hey, I'm Tom Power. Welcome to Q. Take a listen to this. The system of a down and chop sui. If you don't know a system, they're this band at a California who got a lot of attention around the early 2000s for, I mean, exactly what you're hearing there. This intense energy, the confrontational lyrics, and this mixture of heavy metal and Armenian folk melodies.
I remember watching that video and just being honestly kind of scared of it. Like I was a kid, and I was like, who are these people and what is this system of a down started making music in a warehouse in 1994 before, I mean, for the most part, stopping making original albums in 2005.
And in this new book, the lead singer of system, Serge Tonkin talks for the first time about why the band stopped making new music. How sometimes he feels when he's performing, he's in a cover band with his own band, and you know, band personality, complex stuff. But that's not all he talks about in the book because for Serge, the event that shaped his family, his community, and his music and his really his life up to this point was the Armenian genocide.
An estimated one and a half million Armenians died in mass killings by Ottoman Turks during and after the first World War. This was before Serge was born, but he grew up hearing his grandparents talk about somehow surviving and all the family members they lost. Serge was born in Lebanon and the stories passed down about the genocide, not only filled out his own family history, but really set the stage for his own activism and art.
So this conversation today is sort of in two parts. Serge's generational trauma, his feelings on the world around us today through that lens. But then his rise in system of a down and why they still play together, but can't seem to make music together anymore. Serge is a brilliant mind, every kind soul, and a very insightful artist. His new book is called Down with the System. Here's our conversation. How are you? Good brother. How are you? It's good nice to talk to you again, man.
Nice to see you again. Nice to talk to you again. Thank you for having me on. My pleasure. That is true, by the way. I just this feeling of like, huh? Like, what are they? What are they doing? What is this? It was it was a very strange video that we filmed at a motel in Hollywood right on Hollywood Boulevard. And I just remembered the graphics were so bad, like Darren and myself climbing through each other in the video.
And I'm just like, wow, this is like, you know, but having an audience there, that was our first time doing a video with an actual fan audience. That was so fun. That was really fun. They were singing along to every word I watched it earlier today. Yeah, yeah, it was amazing. Congrats on the book. I guess I want to start with why now for the book. Good question. I got approached by an agent in London, my friend Max now, and he hit me up.
And I think he had seen the film Truth to Power that you and I spoke about a couple of years back. And he said, look, I would love to represent you and do a memoir. And at the time, I was like, I'm not sure I want to do a memoir. But I'm interested in another book. He goes, what kind of book can I go? Philosophy book about the intersection of justice and spirituality.
And he's like, hmm, who's going to read that? You know, like, you know, we had this laugh. And then he's like, well, you could do it all. You know, you can have the philosophy within the story within your, you know, life story, et cetera. And I go, hmm, that's interesting. You know, so, so I kind of, I approached it in a way that I wasn't just telling the story as a memoir, but also trying to figure out what lessons that there are to learn here philosophically for myself.
And hopefully others as well, you know, throughout. And that became kind of like the looking for that key, you know, here and there. So it became a fun project in that way. Well, one of the things that you do, which is similar to what I don't know if you read Getty Lee's book.
Yes, I've been, I've actually been listening to his audio book recently. Getty Lee says in his book, essentially, in order for you to understand me, in order for you to understand rush, you need to be able to understand my family. And you need to be able to understand the Holocaust. You need to be able to understand what my father and my mother went through. And it actually just occurred to me that that is similar to how you start your book too.
Absolutely. Yeah. And I didn't know at the time, but I've just recently been listening to his audio book and going through his parent's story and their survival from the camps and all of that stuff. And it is such a strong story strong, you know, it really helps you understand what this person is beyond the music. And why they even gravitated to music, you know, it all plays a part, right? So yeah, I'm.
It's a strong book. You start in your case with the story of your grandfather. Now, now, before we start to talk about what your grandfather went through, stay, stay on, right? Is that the, does that hit her? Stay on. He, I wonder if you could tell me from like a child's perspective, what you remember about him and like, what do you, what do you remember about him meaning to you?
He was a very doding grandfather. He would, he'd make us like, she's in Belonis and which is in the morning, but he'd make him like a, like a hill, like, like he put like 12, 13 pieces of toast, you know, with Belonis and stuff. He would take us to like, you know, bias little toys and he was just very loving and laughing all the time. Like, it's a very positive guy for someone who had such a hard life, you know.
I believe that people that have gone through that type of trauma, be it a Holocaust, genocide, et cetera, they, they've already died once. So they, they have a second life and they live their second life completely differently. Obviously, very grateful and strong. And you see a lot of people, I mean, I'm getting off topic, but a lot of people living up to their 90s, hundreds that are, you know, Holocaust survivors, genocide survivors, which is very rare.
Because they have this, they must have to zest to live, you know, based on the trauma that they've experienced. I'm not entirely sure how to ask this. Because I'm fortunate enough to not have that as part of my family history, my family narrative. So I don't know, like, how, are you aware of the atrocity your entire life, or is there like at four or five or six or seven or eight, the penny drops, and you sort of understand it? Do you know what I mean?
Yeah, that's a very good question. I think I became aware of it pretty, pretty young. I don't know what age it was, but it was, you know, it was, it was taught because that was their family. I mean, if you, if you have a grandparent and you're sitting with them and you just turn around and go, how was your brother? Did you have brothers? And, you know, any question you ask them about their family, the genocide is going to come in as part of the story that you can't not tell that story.
So, yeah, they died pretty young. You know, what did they die from? Oh, well, you know, the genocide, right? So it became a thing that, as an Armenian, you learn about this at a very young age because it's not just your national story. It's your family story, right? As a kid, you want to know your family story. Family tree, for example, I was given the task at school of doing the family tree.
Or guess what? Mine got cut off. You know, I knew about three levels. And then it was like nobody knows, you know, asking ants and uncles. That's really sad, you know, like people of European descent that grew up in America. They could pretty much put up a family tree if they do the right research specialty today with genetics and all of that. But we can't, you know, and that is, it is traumatic. And once you learn this story, this story of, you know,
this trauma, this national trauma, you can never leave it behind. It's a part of you, you know, especially because unlike the Holocaust where you had the, you know, the trials thereafter, the Nuremberg trials. And at least there was some form of justice, whatever you want to call that. The Armenian Genocide didn't have that. And until today, modern Republic Republic of Turkey still denies the Armenian Genocide, which is adding, you know, insult to injury after a hundred years.
When does it become your life's mission or your arts mission or your spirits mission to, to talk about it, to let people, to let people know about it because that's not everybody's reaction. That's not everybody's mission for an understandably so. Sure, sure. I mean, my problem, you know, it's like, personally, I've learned the lessons from my family and from my people's history. But unfortunately, it's repeating itself as we know, you know, there's Holocaust and genocide happening now, right?
You know, I mean, just in September of last year, Azerbaijan attacked 120,000 Armenians in an enclave known as Nagorno-Hara Pa, where those people have been living for multiple millennia, right? Historical Armenian lands. After starving them for nine months with an economic blockade, those people were starving. They attacked them. And those people are now refugees within Armenia, Russia, elsewhere.
And who's talking about that? You know, who's talking about that genocide, that ethnic cleansing, who's talking, you know, I mean, we're seeing horrible trauma happening in Gaza, horrible trauma happening in Israel, you know, both sides, right? You know, you've got Hamas, a terrorist organization that has committed the ultimate crime as far as I'm concerned, right?
Rapping, pillaging, killing, that's genocide. Those people were killed because of who they were, you know, what race they were, what people they were, what religion they had. And now government, what they're doing is no less horrible to be honest, you know. And we're seeing this as a world community in front of our eyes, thinking we're progressing, you know, but we're regressing.
We haven't learned the lessons from the genocide of the first, you know, 20th century. So what's the earliest memory you have of saying that I'm not going to sit this one out? I'm going to, I, it seems like it's, I mean, there are people who process these things very personally. And, and, and again, I don't, and spiritually, you throughout this book, one thing that comes through, you want to talk about a book about philosophy, it comes, it becomes very clear that it's a mission of yours.
In addition to it being, like you said, this trauma being imbued in your DNA, imbued in your art. But the mission is imbued in you as well. What's the earliest memory of you thinking like I got it? I mean, the earliest, the earliest system shows you were talking about it and unlike the Sunset Strip, you were putting up white sheets of paper that's, or sorry, like a mattress cover or something like that that said, 1915, you know, millions died or many in genocide.
What's the earliest memory you have of saying I want to be someone to change things? I want to be someone to be a history keeper. Interesting. I probably in my young teens, I became an activist because of the, you know, the hypocrisy of the kind of taboo nature of genocide within the United States, not properly recognizing it.
And it made me an activist because I thought to myself, geez, if this is something that we know historically to be true and a democracy like the US is not properly recognizing it, how many other truths are we not recognizing because of, you know, economic political experience, whatever.
And that made me an activist in my early teens, I want to say maybe like 1415 probably. And, you know, so, and I ended up joining an Armenian youth group, called the AF and, you know, that big, even politicized me more.
So I was really an activist long before becoming a musician or an artist. And so it kind of just worked its way into what I did. And sometimes as you can, you know, you've read in the book, it worked against me and against the band and, you know, created tension within the band sometimes because, you know, I, I'm more of that.
And so, you know, I'm an activist than most of the other guys are, although regarding the Armenian genocide because it's all of our family's history, that's something that we all always talk about and, you know, try to make people aware of. And it's one of, I considered that one of system of a down most compelling and top accomplishments, actually that awareness campaign.
And it's very clear and embarrassingly on my part, it was how I found out, I mean, you know, as a young man in Canada. That's the biggest honor for us to hear, to be honest, you know, like that's, that's amazing. You know, that, that there's this, you know, huge catastrophe, this huge humanitarian catastrophe of 1.5 million people slaughtered.
And most people around the world didn't know it until a rock band introduced them to it. It's almost funny, you know, but, but when, you know, that's the problem with, with power, you know, power only represents things that power is interested in. And, you know, I'm not talking about your last name. You know, but, you know, that's, that's why we have to be aware as, as, you know, a popular specialty within democracies where we do have agency.
I'm Tom Power, you're listening to Q, you're in the middle of my conversation with the artist and activist, Serge Tonkin. Even though he spent his early years in Lebanon, his parents immigrated to the US when he was a teenager. And that's where the roots were really set for his band system of a down. I'd surprise some people to know that Serge wasn't really a big fan of heavy metal music, given the music they ended up making. But it was one particular concert that changed the course of his life.
In the book, I love a life-changing moment. And in the book, you talk about going to this Iron Maiden show that, that changed your life. How did that change your life? Well, that was my first rock concert ever. And my girlfriend was really entire and made in at the time. I was like, I must have been 16 or 17 and she was like a year younger. And we both went to the same school in Hollywood. And she got tickets and took me to an Iron Maiden course. I had never heard Iron Maiden.
So imagine going to an Iron Maiden concert and never have heard Iron Maiden or heavy music for that matter at the time, because I didn't really listen to heavy music at the time. So it was just mind blowing. If you play someone, that type of music especially Iron Maiden, it's like, wow. So my senses were totally overwhelmed. I think it's the first time I had smelled pot. We were very kind of, you know, like, what is that?
But it was amazing. And years later, of course, she's like, oh, yeah, now you're the rock. You know, you're the metal guy. Like, you know, you're shooting even listen to this stuff at the time. I took you there. I dragged you there. You know, that kind of a thing. So it was interesting that that became my, you know, years later, getting to meet Bruce.
And the guys from Iron Maiden and touring with them. And I never told them this, but they were my first band, you know, that I ever saw, which was incredible. And I was like, what is that? And I was like, what is that? And I was like, what is that? What made the relationship, you talk about getting to know, working with Darren, when you get, when you start system, it was magic. You refer to it as magic in the book. What was so special about it looking back now?
I remember the first time we sat down together. It was in a rehearsal studio that we were sharing. He was playing guitars for a band. And I was playing keyboards in another band. So we were just friends, because we shared rehearsal space. And we all, it was a large group of friends, two bands. And so I remember him sitting down and he started playing something on an acoustic guitar or whatever on guitar, but not plugged in any, you know, and he started singing something.
And I started singing with him. And we immediately noticed that our two voices had this really incredible harmonic resonance together, you know, that it was a unique combination of sounds. And I was like, oh, pretty. All the world I've seen before me passing by. Silent my voice. I've got no choice. All the world I've seen before me passing by. You know, get my mouth wide filled. I don't feel it.
And what I was really curious about was, he was so serious about music. It was like 16, I think, at the time. And like, because the rest of the bands, they like, you know, they like the party. They like being, they like living the musician's lifestyle really. But none of them. I could probably say none of them ended up in music, you know, ultimately.
And I liked it. I was serious as well at that point, you know, and, and so we got along and, and we started collaborating on music, playing each other music. Like a lot of it is like, oh, have you heard Tom Waitz? No, let's listen to him. You know, that kind of thing. And, you know, just, just, you know, kind of really feeling vibes and then starting to play together slowly sing together.
That kind of thing. But it's our voices, the way that our voices, you know, are completely different, but harmonized so well with each other that we notice, wow, this is pretty amazing. Like, it's unique, you know, let me, let me play some of the early system of it down. Take a listen to this. I'm not there all the time, you know, something about something, but something we'll call it and do. You think I'm in here? I play Richard Rolett everyday, your love sport with the full of calm vibes.
Yeah, my my calm. And sugar by system of it down is fun to go back and listen to some of this music for this interview. What are you here when you hear that? Wow. We've performed that song, probably a million times. But when do you get to hear it back? Is there a G, you know, yeah, you know, it's just what I remember is so sugar was technically our first single off our first record.
Yeah, and I say singly, it wasn't like the radio was playing it all over the place all over the world or anything like that. There was a local station in Los Angeles that was playing it at nights once in a while. You know, there was a DJ called Jed the fish that on a specialty show that would play it on K rock. And I remember hearing it. And that's the first time I've ever heard one of our songs on the radio, which was like, you know, mind blowing like.
Like people outside the room, were to the interaction listening to it. It's just like wow, you know, and I remember people's reaction to system early on. It was it was kind of like, what the fuck is that? It wasn't like, oh, that's interesting music. Oh, I like that. No, no, it was more like, what the fuck is that? Yeah. And to have success, commercial success with what is that is kind of mind blowing to me is none of us ever even thought about that.
I have a hard question about that then. So in order to ask that, I want to play this. No, what are you on the world? How are you on the slaughter? Disorder? No. Somewhere between the takers, I like sacred, silencing sleep. That is toxicity. That system of it now, which by the way is a waltz in the chorus like Randakta, Undakta, Undakta, Undakta. Yeah. And then has that. Anyway, I could go on about that song forever. But you said something interesting there that comes up in the book a lot.
There was no expectation for mainstream success. There was no expectation for radio success because your music sounded so different. It was chassis, Armenian folk music, metal screaming, like, there was no way it was going to take off. And then all of a sudden it does. All of a sudden, Chapsuwi does, all of a sudden, toxicity does. Looking back, have you come to any sense as to why all of a sudden it started working?
What it was about this music that was that started that allowed it to reach so many people. It's a big question to ask that typically the person who makes the music can't answer. It's usually the job of the critics. But I wonder if you have some perspective on it. I remember Kevin Weatherley, who was the program director at K-Rock. A year before we took our band to cough, he had played him one of our songs and said, I find the band incredibly interesting.
But there's no way we can ever play this on the radio. And we were at the top band on that stage. Part of it is, we did our work in terms of building an audience ground up, to our opening for Slayer, playing Osfest. We were on the road for that first two, three years, like pretty much the whole time. So we were building, we were in a radio band trying to make it at the radio. We were winning fans over every night by performing.
So that was a part of it, obviously. But part of it is also luck. The movement of music, especially on the radio, transferred over from Seattle to LA. So it became from Grange. Suddenly you started hearing corn and deftones on the radio and new metal and all of this type of stuff. And we had a community that we had fit in because we were in Los Angeles and we had started playing with, you know, as an opener to bands like those.
So in a way, we got lucky because the radio format changed as we came up. So timing was essence here as well. So that's very interesting and that's something you can't predict. Life is a waterfall. We're one in the river and one again after the fall. Swimming through the void we hear the word. We lose ourselves but we're finding all. That's the first part of my conversation with artist and activist Serge Tankin.
So coming up on the show, Serge is going to answer one of the biggest questions that heavy metal fans have right now. Why have system of a down not released a new album in almost 20 years? More from Serge after this. You always want to play but you never want to lose. It doesn't look like your typical poster. You know, long hair, slick bag, wears a leather jacket. It was so cool. On a new season of Heaven Bent. And I mean like this guy is seeing miracles happen.
Beyond belief, the legacy of art Lucia and the harvest. This is a story that's been needing to be told for a long time and I've been waiting for somebody to tell it. Listen to Heaven Bent wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Tom Power, your last name is Q. Sweet Berries ready for your ghost or not different than you. Ghost or not waiting for you are you. Sweet Berries ready for your ghost or not different than you. You're in the middle of my conversation with Serge Tankin.
Best known as the lead singer of the multi platinum, Armenian American metal band System of a Down. Here's the thing. If you follow the band, you'll know that even though they still headline festivals, they haven't put out an album since 2005. It's a touchy subject for the fans and the band, but Serge writes about it in his new memoir down with the system. The song you're hearing right now is called Question of their album Mesmerize.
And it's one of the only songs that Serge wrote that made that album. And as you're about here, that's central to the band's creative differences. Here's part two of my conversation with Serge Tankin of System of a Down. I started by asking him what happened in the change of dynamic between Serge and his co-writer and co-founder of the band. Darren Malakian. Well, changing the dynamic is basically years of time and the progression of the band, the success of the band.
Everything that happened in between the day that we met and now basically, you know, so 25, 30 years. You know, a lot changes in that time. And, you know, and so I think I think that's a part of it. I think, you know, Darren's always, like I said earlier, he's been in life for and he's incredibly serious about his music. And he's incredibly protective of his music and vulnerable to his music, you know, all of those things kind of go together.
So it's those things, I think, that created some of the, you know, creative differences that we started finding. And it's also our progression. Listen, when Darren and I start working together, I didn't really write a lot of instrument-home music. You know, I mostly wrote lyrics. I was the lyricist. I was the singer. And he didn't write any lyrics. He just wrote music, you know, but as time progressed and I played more musical instruments and I started becoming a songwriter composer.
And he started writing more lyrics. It kind of, you know, we started kind of covering each other's territory. And I was okay with that because if you wrote lyrics, I was trying to encourage him to write more. I was, because I believe in artistic growth. I believe in progression. I don't believe in things staying the same way because for music's sake, you know, otherwise the music becomes the same thing over and over again.
That progression is necessary in every artist's life or in every group's life. So I was very encouraging of that. And I just wish that I got some of that back, right? And so that wasn't the case. And it was disappointing. And it became a creative difference over the band's path and what not over time. What, why did you want to write about this in the book? A lot of it has been publicized in a very sensationalist format by media, music media mostly.
And I kind of wanted it to put it in a proper perspective and the grounding perspective, but with love and with balance and understanding that these things happen. This is normal. You know, you have a relationship and you know, you have differences in opinion as how you want to go forward, whether it's a band or a marriage or whatever it is.
And, you know, these things happen. And so I wanted to take that aspect out. I wanted to take the sensationalist aspect out of the whole thing and be like, this is not only what happened, but this is how I see things. You know, that kind of. And the spirit of asking something with loving and compassion, I want to, I want to preface this next question with that. I can see a smile at me. I appreciate it.
Because this is a conversation I have with a lot of artists whose bands have stopped playing together. The next round, you band has not stopped playing together. You just announced a big gig in the next little while. Right. But you have to show this. You haven't been making new records. How do you balance the love and obligation you might feel towards your fans, those who love system and the internal struggles within within the band? Do you know what I mean by that?
Totally. And that's an incredibly smart question. It's really hard catering when you're an artist. It's really hard catering. If you're an entertainer, catering is in your, you know, but if you're an artist, then you're just creating what comes to you, you're almost, you're almost unaware of what people want. Yes, if it's something heavier, you know, people are going to like it more, you know, but if you're a good songwriter, you could do both.
You know, I do orchestral music. I do film music. I do rock music. I do bass, ball, music. It's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. So I enjoy them. But I know that if I do rock more people are going to listen to it, then a piano, you know, instrumental orchestral piece of music, you know, soundtrack kind of music.
But it doesn't mean that you don't do both as an artist, you know. So it's hard to really cater to people's feelings, you know, what I love is that, you know, and I know that I can speak for the rest of the guys in the band.
That no matter what's going on with our creative difference or the band not making new music or not touring fully or whatever, everyone's incredibly appreciative of what we have, you know, in terms of the love that we get from our fans and, and the way that people react to our music and the way that it's, you know, we get all these emails about how it's changed people's lives and all of that stuff.
And that is like mind blowing, you know, it's like the biggest honor, you know, and when I meet people on the street, I'm still incredibly honored that someone would pick me out and look at me in a positive light, not knowing who I am personally, but knowing me through my music, through our music, let's say. And I think that's a great honor, you know, I'm I feel blessed for it, but it doesn't mean that that thing should continue forever either, you know.
Have your have your bandmates read the book. We've sent it to them like a month ago, so I don't know, I know I know I know my brother in law hasn't gotten it, and he's like, why haven't you, I'm like, I said, we sent it to the office, why haven't you gone is I'm going to I'm going to have to take it to him, Saturn. But he's a funny guy, my brother in law is my drummer, yeah, he's a fun guy because he said something like, listen, if you're not bashing everyone, I'm not going to bother to read it.
Spoken like someone who's been in a van for a really long time, two questions before before we go and I'm cautious of your time and grateful for the time. And then you said at the beginning, something that I caught, you said, you know, this was a book of philosophy and lessons, and I thought you were going to say that I feel like I can impart to the world. But what you said was that I I can learn myself through the writing of this book.
Can you give me an example of something you learned philosophically through the writing of this book that maybe you didn't know before. I really, really realized a lot of the mistakes I had made within the van specifically writing the book. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I knew that my spirituality had created miss it had had had misunderstandingly created passivity within me having to do with the band.
And I had a time where I needed to be proactive. And but I just wasn't for whatever reason, you know, whatever I was going through at the time I was going through break up with my ex all that. But I was in it. So I'm very careful in the book that no matter what our creative differences are with the guys in the band, I take responsibility for my own part as well.
And I was when we came back in 2011 to start touring after our hiatus, I was a different person. I was more proactive. I was more confident. I had put out solar record that had done well and all of this stuff kind of proving to myself that listen, I do write these songs and people do want to listen to them. And I'm enjoying this process touring for it all of that stuff. I came in. I came back in as a different person than I had left.
And but I hadn't really owned up to my own passivity and kind of letting the reins go of the band in 2003, 2004, writing the book really, really put me in touch with that more than anything else. Last question before you go, reading the unbelievable hardship that your grandfather went through in the first quarter of this book reading about your family's history in the Armenian genocide.
I had this moment where I thought, even for you to have been raised in a safe house with heat and light is a victory for him. What would he have thought of how your life actually did turn out? So I'm privileged that he was still alive. He lived to be like 97. And I'm privileged that he was still alive to kind of not kind of understand the impact that our music was making on our community more than anything else. I mean, I'm never not sure he's ever heard our music or anything like that.
But because you know, Armenian papers wrote about the band and so he knew that the band became something important for our community and and he was proud of that. You know, so to me, that was like the greatest thing, you know, to be able to give back to his legacy and and and you know what he had lived through to be able to speak up for those who weren't able to speak up for themselves. So I love reading the book. I love any chance I get to talk to you. Thanks so much for making the time.
Likewise, tell my love that interview. I had fun, man. Thank you. From the 2005 album, Hypnotize, that is system of a down with holy mountains, which is a song. They wrote about the event that really shaped their lives and shaped their music, the Armenian genocide. The genocide and its impact makes up a lot of search, Tonkian's new book. It's a really powerful memoir. It's called Down with the System and it's out everywhere today.
That's it for the show today. The other conversation we have up today is an interesting one. It's from the musician, Billy Ann, who is from Milton, Ontario. I just drove through Milton. The other day, I'm away to Guelph. Real Canadian show here today. She's from Milton. She put up, check it. I mean, this is an amazing story. She put up a video of herself singing Taylor Swift's song Labyrinth.
It opens up Instagram one day and, low in the hole, there she is. Taylor Swift comments on it that changes the trajectory of her life and her career. Now she has a new album out and she'll be here to tell you the whole story. Go check that out wherever you got this podcast. See you soon. Later on. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.