I have a fantastic conversation with Lonnie Wilson in this episode, diving deep into W. Edwards Deming’s seminal perspectives on quality, systems thinking, and the enduring challenges of operationalizing his philosophy in the real world. Lonnie also shares how his initial admiration for Chevron's management practices began to unravel after encountering Deming's writings in the mid-1980s. The episode opens with Lonnie recounting his experience attending one of Deming's four-day seminars. His anec...
Jul 07, 2025•41 min•Season 5Ep. 9
I'm still trying to figure out how to produce the audiobook for Rebels of Reason. This is my first experiment with 11Labs. It's not great. I will have to work on the voice equipment; however, it's a start. I hope you enjoy it.
Jun 11, 2025•4 min•Season 5Ep. 8
I have a deeply insightful conversation with Dr. Bill Bellows in this episode of the Profound Podcast. We dive into the heart of what it means to think about thinking—a concept that lies at the core of the In2:InThinking Network, a community Dr. Bellows co-founded to carry forward the transformational work of W. Edwards Deming and other systems pioneers. At the center of our discussion is the 2025 In2:InThinking Forum, happening this June 20–22 in Santa Clarita, California, and also available vi...
Apr 17, 2025•49 min•Season 5Ep. 7
In this episode, I have a fascinating conversation with Jim Highsmith. We dive into Jim’s six-decade career in software development, his role in the Agile movement, and how his early influences continue to shape his thinking on digital transformation today. Jim shares stories from the punch card era to the Agile Manifesto, offering insight into the evolution of our industry. We begin by exploring Jim's early work at Exxon, debugging code with hexadecimal printouts, and his eventual pivot into st...
Apr 09, 2025•47 min•Season 5Ep. 6
In this episode, I sit down with Mark Graban, a leading voice in Lean and continuous improvement, to explore the enduring relevance of W. Edwards Deming’s principles in modern industries. Mark shares his decades of work in healthcare, manufacturing, and leadership consulting. We dive into key themes from Mark’s career and writing, particularly his latest book, The Mistakes That Make Us: Cultivating a Culture of Learning and Innovation . He emphasizes how Deming’s ideas, such as eliminating fear ...
Mar 10, 2025•56 min•Season 5Ep. 5
In this episode, I have a fascinating conversation with Reuven Cohen, someone who I believe is one of the most important voices in AI today. Reuven recounts his journey in technology, from being an early advocate of cloud computing to now working at the cutting edge of AI and reasoning models. He shares insights into how AI is shifting the nature of work, particularly in fields like software development, business operations, and decision-making. He describes AI as "cloud computing 2.0, but with ...
Feb 17, 2025•57 min•Season 5Ep. 4
In this episode, I talk with returning guest Joseph Enochs about the artificial intelligence (AI) world and its implications for businesses and innovation. A major highlight of the conversation is an analysis of DeepSeek, an open-source AI model developed by a Chinese company. Joseph explains how DeepSeek and similar models demonstrate that AI development is becoming increasingly accessible globally. With only a fraction of the computing resources used by giants like OpenAI and Meta, DeepSeek ha...
Feb 03, 2025•54 min•Season 5Ep. 3
In this episode, I continue my conversation with Laksh Raghavan , a cybersecurity leader and systems thinker, diving into profound insights on applying multidisciplinary approaches to organizational challenges. Picking up from Part 1, this discussion illuminates the principles of W. Edwards Deming and other thought leaders in fostering organizational reliability, productivity, and innovation. The episode opens with a discussion on Herbert Simon's "satisficing" and its organizational implications...
Jan 21, 2025•36 min•Season 5Ep. 2
In this episode of The Profound Podcast , I welcome back cybersecurity expert and systems thinker Laksh Raghavan. Laksh explores how multidisciplinary thinking bridges the gap between theory and practice in solving complex problems. The discussion begins with Laksh's professional journey, highlighting his early dissatisfaction with conventional consulting and his pivot toward systems thinking and complexity science. Inspired by figures like Kurt Lewin, Charlie Munger, and Russell Ackoff, Laksh o...
Jan 14, 2025•38 min•Season 5Ep. 1
In this second part of my conversation with Dr. Bill Bellows, we continue our deep dive into the profound concepts of W. Edwards Deming and their modern applications in leadership, systems thinking, and operational excellence. Dr. Bellows brings his wealth of experience and insight to tackle complex questions about embedding systems thinking within large organizations, balancing tools and strategies, and fostering meaningful collaboration. We begin by examining the challenges of introducing Demi...
Dec 23, 2024•38 min•Season 4Ep. 28
In this episode, I engage with Dr. Bill Bellows in a deep dive into the application of W. Edwards Deming’s systems thinking in software development and DevOps. Dr. Bellows, a veteran in quality management and an expert in Deming’s principles, shares insights on variation, Taguchi loss functions, and the synthesis of parts in a system to highlight gaps in current industry metrics like DORA. Key Topics: Misconceptions About Managing Parts vs. Systems : Dr. Bellows references Russell Ackoff’s asser...
Dec 20, 2024•41 min•Season 4Ep. 27
In this short episode, I reconnect with Dr. Bill Bellows, a frequent guest and advocate for W. Edwards Deming's principles. The conversation focuses on reviving the In2:In Thinking Network, a nonprofit Dr. Bellows co-founded to improve how individuals and organizations work, learn, and think together. Dr. Bellows discusses the origins of the network and its 16-year legacy of bringing together diverse voices inspired by Deming, Russell Ackoff, and others to explore innovative ways of collaboratio...
Dec 19, 2024•10 min•Season 4Ep. 26
In this second installment of my conversation with Dr. David Woods, we continue our exploration of resilience engineering and complexity science, focusing on practical applications and actionable strategies. Building on the foundational concepts from part one, Dr. Woods offers deeper insights into how organizations can thrive in unpredictable environments by embracing resilience as a core competency. We dive into the nuts and bolts of designing systems that can adapt and recover, emphasizing the...
Dec 10, 2024•49 min•Season 4Ep. 25
In this episode, I sit down with Dr. David Woods, a leading expert in resilience engineering and complexity science, for the first of a two-part conversation. Together, we explore the interplay between resilience, complexity, and systems thinking, diving into how these principles intersect with W. Edwards Deming’s transformative ideas on quality and continual improvement. Dr. Woods introduces the foundational concepts of resilience and highlights its critical importance in an era marked by rapid...
Nov 27, 2024•47 min•Season 4Ep. 24
In this episode, I invite Tracy Ragan, CEO of DeployHub, on the podcast for an in-depth discussion on the evolution of DevOps, the complexities of modern software systems, and the cultural challenges women face in technology. Tracy's rich history in software development, from working on mainframes in the late 1980s to spearheading DevOps advancements, provides a fascinating lens through which to examine the industry. Key Topics Discussed: The Historical Context of DevOps : Tracy recounts the ind...
Nov 22, 2024•57 min•Season 4Ep. 23
In this episode of The Profound Podcast , I sit down with Dr. Jabe Bloom, a researcher and expert in systems thinking, AI, and digital transformation. We explore Eric Lawson’s book The Myth of AI , tackling the contentious debate around artificial general intelligence (AGI). Dr. Bloom offers insights from his dissertation and divides the ongoing discourse on AI into two camps: dogmatists and pragmatists. Dogmatists believe AGI is inevitable, while pragmatists focus on the practical impacts of cu...
Oct 27, 2024•1 hr 10 min•Season 4Ep. 22
In this episode of the Profound Podcast, I speak with Erik J. Larson, author of The Myth of Artificial Intelligence , about the speculative nature and real limitations of AI, particularly in relation to achieving Artificial General Intelligence (AGI). Larson delves into the philosophical and scientific misunderstandings surrounding AI, challenging the dominant narrative that AGI is just around the corner. Drawing from his expertise and experience in the field, Larson explains why much of the AI ...
Sep 18, 2024•1 hr 4 min•Season 4Ep. 21
In this episode of The Profound Podcast , I have an enlightening conversation with Dr. Jabe Bloom, a prominent voice in the fields of DevOps and digital transformation. The discussion revolves around the philosophical underpinnings of scientific reasoning and its application to complex systems, particularly through the lens of Charles Sanders Peirce's work on abductive reasoning. Jabe Bloom begins by exploring Peirce’s contributions to philosophy, particularly how Peirce's concept of abductive r...
Sep 04, 2024•1 hr 5 min•Season 4Ep. 20
In this episode of The Profound Podcast, I speak with Andrew Clay Shafer, a pivotal figure in the DevOps community and a key influencer in the industry. They delve into the evolution of DevOps, its current state, and its implications for the future, particularly in the context of digital transformation. The conversation begins with a reflection on the early days of DevOps and Agile, highlighting key milestones and the ongoing relevance of foundational principles, such as those proposed by W. Edw...
Aug 06, 2024•52 min•Season 4Ep. 19
In this episode, I speak with Joseph Enochs, Managing Director of AI/ML and Emerging Technologies at Enterprise Vision Technologies. Known for his extensive background in DevOps and digital transformation, Joseph shares his remarkable journey transitioning into the AI domain. Joseph begins by recounting how his interest in AI was sparked, notably influenced by the foundational concepts of W. Edwards Deming and the subsequent developments in DevOps. He details the pivotal moments that led him to ...
Jul 23, 2024•1 hr 15 min•Season 4Ep. 18
In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Barbara Lawton, a distinguished statistician and expert in experimental design. Dr. Lawton shares her journey from studying biology and ecology to diving deep into statistics, eventually finding herself at the Rocky Flats nuclear weapons facility. It was here she experienced a pivotal moment that led her to W. Edwards Deming's teachings. Dr. Lawton recounts how a significant project at Rocky Flats fell apart due to budget cuts, illustrating Deming's principle...
Jul 09, 2024•1 hr 21 min•Season 4Ep. 17
In this insightful episode of the Profound Podcast, I speak with Angela Montgomery, co-founder of Intelligent Management and author of the upcoming book, The Human Constraint . Angela shares her unique journey from a background in arts to collaborating with physicists. The conversation delves into the artificial barriers within organizations, the importance of systemic thinking, and how integrating Deming's System of Profound Knowledge with the Theory of Constraints can drive meaningful change. ...
Jun 26, 2024•58 min•Season 4Ep. 16
In this episode, I had a conversation with Mike Beck. We dive deep into W. Edwards Deming's seminal perspectives on quality and their application in the automotive and healthcare sectors. Mike, with his vast experience at General Motors and Toyota, shares compelling stories and insights on how Deming's principles transformed his approach to engineering and management. Mike Beck's journey began as a mechanical engineer at General Motors in 1979, a time when the company held a dominant market shar...
Jun 18, 2024•1 hr 9 min
In this episode of the Profound Podcast, I have a conversation with Rob Park. Rob shares his journey from early involvement in extreme programming (XP) to his current fascination with W. Edwards Deming's principles and their application in modern software development. Rob's career path offers a rich tapestry of experiences, from using case tools and adopting scrum practices before they were widely recognized, to working with Kanban and continuous integration/continuous delivery (CI/CD) processes...
Jun 05, 2024•53 min•Season 4Ep. 14
In this episode, I have a conversation with Beth Blankenship, a seasoned expert in quality management and a fervent disciple of W. Edwards Deming. We dive deep into Deming's profound principles and their continued relevance in today's digital transformation landscape. Beth begins by sharing her journey from an IT background to becoming a passionate advocate for Deming's teachings. Her story includes a moment at a Deming seminar, which sparked her lifelong dedication to quality improvement and ma...
May 28, 2024•1 hr 16 min•Season 4Ep. 13
In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Jabe Bloom, an expert in design studies and organizational theory. Recently completing his PhD at Carnegie Mellon, Dr. Bloom brings a fresh perspective on the intersection of temporality, complexity, and design, particularly in the context of digital transformation in IT and other industries. We dive into the nuances of temporality versus time, exploring how these concepts influence design decisions. Dr. Bloom elaborates on how temporality is a qualitative me...
May 21, 2024•58 min•Season 4Ep. 12
In this episode of the Profound Podcast, I'm joined by John Dues, Chief Learning Officer at United Schools Network in Ohio and an innovative educator who has ingeniously applied W. Edwards Deming's theories to the educational sector. John shares his journey of discovery into Deming's methodologies and how these have profoundly influenced his approach to improving educational systems. Our discussion delves into John's initial skepticism and eventual embrace of Deming's System of Profound Knowledg...
May 14, 2024•51 min•Season 4Ep. 11
In this episode of the Profound Podcast, I have the pleasure of speaking with Ariane David, PhD, an insightful thinker and academic who delves into the principles of non-positional thinking and its profound impact on personal and organizational learning. We explore how W. Edwards Deming's theories on quality and continuous improvement intersect with modern challenges in digital transformation, particularly within IT, healthcare, and manufacturing sectors. Dr. David's introduces the four principl...
Apr 29, 2024•54 min•Season 4Ep. 10
In the second episode of my two-part discussion with Bill Bellows, we explore the nuanced realms of quality management, variation, and integration, drawing from the rich legacy of W. Edwards Deming and Genichi Taguchi, and their profound impact on industries ranging from automotive to aerospace. Bill Bellows shares enlightening perspectives on the historical collaboration between Ford and Mazda, illuminating the stark differences in their approaches to quality and production. He discusses the im...
Apr 22, 2024•55 min•Season 4Ep. 9
In the first part of a two-part series with Bill Bellows, we delve deep into the essence of system thinking and its pivotal role in shaping organizations. Bellows leads us on a journey exploring the nuanced differences between 'Red Pen' and 'Blue Pen' organizations, and beyond, into the realms of 'Me' versus 'We' and the collective impact of every straw on the camel's back. Bellows opens the discussion with his famous 'Red Pen Blue Pen' exercise, a metaphorical exploration that distinguishes two...
Apr 15, 2024•55 min•Season 4Ep. 8
