¶ Episode Introduction and Community Updates
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Dr. Billy Garvey, we have just finished recording Rewards and Punishment and Star Wars. What are people going to learn in this one?
Yeah, uh movie he grew up on. Great one though, great one. And we tried to, yeah, make it a really practical topic this time about something that I think all of us really struggle with. What's the right thing to do with rewards? What happens with punishments, you know, um and trying to be really understanding that all of us have a different experience with this and then the big important stuff around
Totally. I think if you're in that cycle of reward and punishment, which I know I am day to day, not in a bad way, but just in a way, what I thought was interesting was how you can transition people over to more of um intrinsic motivation potentially looking uh moving on from rewards the whole time. Is that kind of where we're going with this trying to get to?
Yeah, I don't think it's black and white, I don't think it's like be perfect.
No goodness no, there's always gonna be
Mm.
Yeah, carrots and sticks and stuff like that. But you wanna be I shouldn't have said that maybe. No, we're about carrots, but like not sticks, sorry. Bad
This up right.
Hope you enjoyed the episode guys and are really looking forward to your questions. Make sure you contribute your questions and contribute them sooner rather than later.
Also protectionist professionals come in. Love it.
enjoy the episode
I'm Billy, a developmental pedagogical
🎵 Music
Good morning, Dr. Billy Gab.
🎵 Music
This is your company, mate. In a good way.
Laughing at me or laughing with me?
Well actually laughing at me if we're being honest.
That's true.
We're all laughing at me.
My body language is just closed, isn't it? And I'll try and keep it open. Just put on three layers. Not as cold as your joint used to be, let's be honest.
It's a bit fresh. Do you know where it's not this cull?
What do you tell me one more time? I was gonna confiscate that lovely beanie those people gave you in Adelaide.
Yes.
For you, I'm not in this. Keep telling me how warm it is on that east coast of Australia while we sit here in the cool weather of Melbourne. Nice. You well?
Yes, yes, I am well. I am well. I'm in a therapeutic space with you. Also the beautiful team at the Man Cave.
The man cave couldn't be doing it without them.
No. Can we can we love them more? Yeah, just amazing humans.
Early hours kick off. Yeah. Not easy and greatly appreciated.
Yes.
I got one criticism.
Okay. I had to cut this bit out for the first time ever cuts it.
And one thing I'm a little bit annoyed about, Cal, the guy who sets it up, does a great job, a little bit too sharp on the camera. I look a little bit older in the social highlights than I'd like. I used to like it when we used to stuff up the focusing and I'd just come through a bit
Yeah, it's because I'm not sure what's
And I look amazing. I'm kidding. Kel does a great job.
I think you look great, Mike.
I just yeah. I noticed on the first ones I was like, oh, is this what H D looks like? Is it right. Maybe when you go back to what is it, seven twenty per.
Just some um some pink and then some orange. Yeah, like the old school games. But um but no, uh hopefully that's making life a bit easier for the amazing A V one and all things or creatures and I V Street, all the other guys that provide pro bono support that they're not happy to deal with um Yeah, audio that's doesn't sound great or vision that's blurry. Yeah.
Yep. Yes, very much so.
Um I just realized, you know what I realised, which is a bit of a I'll find one. I don't have a Grizzy or a Windsor. I'm just so excited. Oh do we have any shout outs, shout outs, shout outs? Newcastle. Uh um so please come to New E, like we're We want to see as many people as possible. The shows have just been this phenomenal experience. Like if you if there's a show coming up, come early and um extend the babysitter out afterwards as well if you can. Um'cause it's not just a show.
'Cause we don't we don't go anywhere either.
Yeah. We've been we've had to be kicked out of every place.
Yep. Every venue we've been booted out of to staying too long.
Yeah, so she's so the venues have been amazing. Yes. Yeah, venues have been amazing. Um
It's start at ten A. M.
Yeah, thanks for people that are getting the merch. The merch helps us do what we do. Hundred percent of profits go back. Uh Patreon, please come and check out the Patreon. We're gonna do way more in that space. Um so the Patreon.
Donate if you can, but otherwise everything's free anyway.
Yep, yep, definitely. Um I feel like there's something I'm missing. Uh we're looking for a social media manager. That's um one particular thing that's drowning me that not only do I not have the time for I don't have the skill set. So anyone who's interested in that, please reach out. Um yes, and what uh oh there's a couple of things I wanted to say. Yes, so two things, particularly about Adelaide. Um do you remember because people get a laugh out of this?
Okay.
Remember the lovely guy that was doing the A V?
Yeah.
Wrong. And do you remember we said how long you worked here for? Yeah. I think it was four years. Four years, yeah. We said what's it like? Do you remember the answer there?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Aye.
I usually...
I usually do rock shows.
Yeah, I usually deal with yeah, rock shows and rock stars and this is a bit different.
¶ Parental Discipline: The Upstairs Challenge
We took that personally. Yep. Um and then I told you this. Well, how cool is this? This is like life highlight moment. It's getting on the plane back. Pilot came out of the cabin. So Billy, got a handshake.
Did you guys?
Yeah, yeah.
Did you sit in the cockpit?
Didn't didn't get the car and went back to uh middle seat. Right at the back. Just in the draft of the Kiwic.
Yeah.
This is always great when you've had hardly any sleep.
On the midday flight. Because you had my honor. 7.30. Why?
Mm. Mate, we're all making sacrifices. As I spoke last time, I'm sleeping above kebab shops. It's about the community, Nick, okay.
I actually couldn't agree more. I don't give a stuff how I get to these places and how long I'm there for. I absolutely love performing. It's so
Alright, is that Can you just say your name after that so it's really legally binding? Nothing's binding in.
Um no it's it's uh could do live shows every weekend.
Yeah. Yeah, maybe that's yeah or do you've got a Grizzly in a Windsor?
Yeah, I got a sl I got a grizzly. Um it's a vague grizzy, but it's something that I just need to check myself. Probably need some advice on this.
Okay. Do you want to reply there? Sure. I don't object to fun.
I love fun. In fact I'm the grand funk master of fun. That's a winslow.
If you're not made of the buttons, I'm going to...
You threw me back away. Can I give you one Winslow, a little quick one? Winslow. Well um it's not something I've done. Other parents would probably be like, Yeah, we know, mate. But um one of my kids recently came up with a joke. Oh and I was like I was just really proud of her. It was really good. Yeah. And and and I believe her. She's like she by osmosis, she might have heard somewhere else or something, but she's like, no, come up with it.
It's really good. I'm so proud of it. And I killed over laughing. I couldn't believe it. This is the imagination she goes.
Hang on.
Why why is a mathematics book Um always so sad. 'Cause it's full of problems. And I turned around and I was like, Did you I said that's amazing where'd you do that? She goes, No, I came up with it.
That is amazing.
Advising.
Yeah I g I guess Henry is pretty funny.
Hey! Don't let your mother smell that beer in your breath. She'll take it out on me.
Even over that's the way that I go.
sat there two days ago and it was the end of the It was the end of the day and I was like, cool. Um upstairs guys, let's go. And um You know, I'm kind of in.
Yeah.
Wasn't that that's not the put-down routine. That's but it but it's the start. I mean they've after near the beds to be put in down. So let's go. Up. And um Nothing. I was like, give it a minute, come back. Hey guys, yep, let's go. Nothing. Give them a minute. Come back. Guys, why is no one why is no one listening to me? And I was like and I was like, why is no one listening to me? And I was like
¶ Reflection on Control and Emotional Safety
I just was listening to myself saying it, going I sounded n crazy. And I was like, Why am I? And then I was like, What am I doing wrong? And obviously I don't know. No one no one listened to me. No one went upstairs. No one did it. Like they were just like sitting there crafting happily. Weren't misbehaving, but I was like
They're probably past that age where I can just demand they go upstairs and go to bed and do these things. And I just was like sitting there going, What am I doing? And I was just like lemmings or something, I don't know, you don't just direct which way they go. And they were just sort of like I just had to check my
Yeah, but like but even it was like Henry Edward was there and no one was really reacting and I was like, Oh, I I just sound like a tyrant right now trying to get these kids upstairs and everyone's like, What's your big stressor, old man? Like big fella. They sort of looked at me and I was like, Oh, it just sounded like a broken record.
Go ahead.
and like jump, say how high and all that sort of stuff and I just was like, this is this weird moment. And I was like, eh I don't know what it was. I don't know why I just sort of checked myself and was like, this is ridiculous.
And then what happened? ごめんなさい
connecting with them or something or I probably got the earrets or something and Henrietta probably just said, Hey guys, should we go upstairs and do a book? And they would say, Yeah You know I don't know, I just felt like this I felt like a Yeah, I didn't feel great. But it wasn't'cause they Didn't listen to it was just this weird thing. I was like, What am I why am I barking for everyone to get upstairs and I don't know, it's just these weird moments.
Yeah, okay. Yeah.
And I just was like I sound like an idiot. try to march people upstairs. I just didn't bother connecting or anything and was like, yeah. Telling of the times, maybe they're just a bit older, they're like Like, yeah.
Yeah, I'm more worried about your experience in that moment.
Oh, I just felt like a goose. But I think like I should have expected to feel like a goose.
Yeah. Anyway, how amazingly on topic that is, and you don't know the topic.
Oh, I don't know the topic. Is this is this demanding parenting with no background? I don't know. I don't even know why I told the story, but I just kept thinking about it and I think everyone was looking at me like, What do you expect? Like and I was like, Yeah, maybe I Speaking maybe my kids are just getting older, you know what I mean? Six and eight
Yeah, would you have a good idea? Did you feel like they should listen to me?
yeah but maybe So maybe Give them the benefit of like oh maybe I'm raising them to m you know I try to look at it and be like, Oh, make their own decisions, go up. Like don't run the show, not in my house'cause we've just come off chaos and control. I can tell you I'm quite controlling. Yeah. Well the fault is
But I was just sort of sitting there going, Oh, maybe they're just not that at that age anymore where you know, come on, let's go and they just go. Mm and I got a tribe of data. It's weird.
No, it doesn't matter. Very rarely is the answer try harder. I don't know, mate. I think I'm feeling for you a bit in that moment and feeling like you shouldn't probably wouldn't feel great to just be getting ignored.
I don't know what happened.
An experience that you should just put down to your fault for trying to be too controlling. Like All of our relationships should be reciprocally emotionally safe. Yeah. You know, they should feel safe to express how they feel about what you're asking them to do, but you should also feel safe emotionally as well.
I think the emotion's poured out of me, Billy.
Yeah.
è proprio una macchina, però una macchina
Sorry, what I m what I more meant is I didn't want to make a bigger deal out of it than it was. But yeah, it's but it is that interesting I I feel that a lot sometimes where I'm not succeeding in like getting the kids to do something and I'm just Yeah, I often feel like I'm so fatigued that I either give up or introduce punishment threat, you know? Oh yeah. Where I'm like, if you don't do that now, there's no book or or I'll just walk away and be like
J it does make me think like I've been doing that for too long.
Amazing, amazing to see that as a growth opportunity. I I struggle to do that.
Yeah, maybe I'm just like, Yeah, try try connecting this I don't know. Weird one to bring up, sorry.
¶ Presence, Stress, and Joy in Parenting
Um
Grizzy. Grizzy. On the spot, Grizzy. Uh which will just give me another chance to shout out for a social media manager. Yeah, we one of our um clips was getting a bit of heat, which I've spoken to you about, where I was like essentially saying it's not normal for kids to struggle at school.
Which I was like
That's not the kids' problem, it's this broken system's fault that I don't accept that some kids have an experience that's a negative one at school and we shouldn't collectively accept that. We should be like every kid deserves to be succeeding in those environments and they should be truly inclusive and safe and belonging and celebrating. Um but anyway the reason I'm saying it is that is that
I just couldn't get out of it. I like was people were like attacking me and all this stuff and I was even like Evie was the one thing she was looking forward to all week was a movie. Mm. I just couldn't get off my phone'cause I was like needing to keep checking it whether I needed to like respond to someone or whatever. And yeah, people were like, Yeah, just e you know, four thousand likes and like, you know, six people have a gut at me about it. But
Exactly, really.
But yeah, it was just this interesting thing about like just not being able to like Just be present. And I think that's like it's funny that you would think with the little time that I have with them that I could actually be present with them. And it's been um yeah, it's been quite uh yeah, it's so funny that that like clip um causing that
Agitation to the community impacted my week. Like, do you know what I mean? I'd like we've spoken a lot over the podcast about the journey of that and like Yeah, and even I just showed you there was one email where like something asked me to do something and I was like I don't really have capacity to properly invest in this. And they just sent back this like attacking.
And I'm just like I find it really hard to s like To just find that calm and like find that and just be present with my kids and present with my friends and not carry all that stuff around with me? Like the I think there's the like there's the initial reaction to it, which is one thing, which is like an emotional regulation thing. But then there's like this just reflection and how much you let this stuff
impact your daily, weekly functioning. And I think I'm getting better at the first, but I'm struggling quite a bit with the second. I'm just like and not not just those examples with other things too where I'm just like stressing about stuff and being like, you know, where's
Where's either gonna go to school next year? Where are we gonna live? Like where are we gonna you know, like I'm just finding that I'm struggling to be like it's sweet, it'll just I know we spoke about this in control and chaos, but like Yeah, that's I reckon because of the control and chaos. Like it helped me have insight. But there's also this emotional aspect to it that's not just about knowledge. Yep. Just being like, fire out. This is tough and I'm feeling
Bit alone in this and like you know, and then you then you go through the process. I don't know if you do this, then you beat yourself up about letting it get to you. And yeah. You know, it's like this, it comes back again, it circles around again'cause you're like.
It's a cycle, Billy. Yeah. That's what they'd say.
Yeah, so yeah, I just that's my on the spot because I didn't prepare for one. Um I forgot about it. Um do you have a No, that's it. You got like the joke, obviously. 'Cause you did it as a quick one, but yeah, that that was a very good one. My yeah, my windslight was just um The times I am present with the kids, it's just amazing. Like amazing stuff. Just Just adoring them. Like you know, even a bit similar to your story.
Evie's like really the other day we're eating dinner and there was like carbonara and there's like a little black bit of burnt stuff in it and she's like, Oh no, there's a fly in my food and I was like, Oh, that's a bit gross and then I went to get it and she's like, Ah, I tricked ya.
A sense of humor?
She's...
You're like, oh joke. And you just go
Yeah,'cause the layers of complexity in being able to do that.
That was a joke.
Yeah. And then um yeah, just Heidi's becoming a little person and like it's just been beautiful. Like it's uh as one of the Mount Cave guys was saying, what was it? The hardest and best thing. Has two little kids including a three month old one in the man cable. Best and hardest thing, you know. And like yeah. So just there's been a lot of the best bits of it lately. So I think that's probably my my carl Winslow. Yep.
¶ Star Wars: Cultural Icon and Personal Connection
So the the movies is Star Wars. Yes. Finally taking a look into the space opera.
Space opera. Space opera. Yeah. Was it w'cause we the briefing of watching the movie this week was we were looking at I think we were looking at the Star Wars universe.
Yeah, yeah.
Fortunately, and I think I've talked about this, I think I talked about it in our first episode back of the year, kids and I rewatch.
Yes, that was why I thought it would be less burdensome for the yeah.
So we watched the first five. We've got halfway through, so Thinking chronol we watch five chronologically. Does it make sense? So we watched the original Star Wars seventy seven, seventy-nine, eighty two or whatever it was. So we did it like that. And then we went back and watched Jaja Bing. Natalie Portman ones. We only got halfway through the second Natalie Portman one.
You mean yes.
It got a bit sketchy. Yeah, sorry. Chronologically, not yeah, not Star Wars chronologically. Um, it started to get a bit scary, so we stopped.
So yeah, we're we'll focus on the whole thing, but we'll focus on Return of the Jedi.
Which was my favourite.
Yeah, favourite.
Watched it easily the most out of all of them.
And is that remember how good it was seeing in the cinema or
I'm not that old. You know what a colleague said to me yesterday? It's about one of the best burns we've ever copied. She goes, sorry, tangent. I go, um I said, um, I couldn't sleep on the I couldn't sleep on the weekend. I um I had a couple of wines. Had like split a bottle of wine between three people. And I I just couldn't sleep. I've been up since really early. And she goes, Mate, you're not forty anymore
That's like that's one of the best layered burns of all time. I was like, how old do you think I am? Yeah.
Right. That's great. I had recently I'd I'd taken like iron and vitamin D and B twelve and all these things and I had I went to the pharmacy to get it and I was like Got all these scripts filled and I was like, God, I didn't think I was at the age where I'd be taking this many medications every day and thinking the person would laugh and they're like, Oh yeah, but you probably need'em. That's worse.
Anyway, back to the movie. So sorry. Uh yeah
This is your five.
Yeah.
Have you got a favorite a favorite lightsaber jewel in any of them?
Well, I think the the one between Vader is yeah, Vader and Luke. Well it's it's the one that goes It's I think it's the most meaningful, longest one of the three films. I d I mean I don't want to get into what I Empire's Great, but I didn't. I much preferred this one. Yeah. Um I think I love Forest Moon of Endor, I love all of it. I love the
Jewel of the Fates is pretty amazing. Jewel of the Fates, you know, with Darth Moore where Mason and McGregor.
Oh hang on y you th I thought you were talking about of the original style. Sorry, no. I think yeah, I think yeah, Darthmore is the best choreographed ones personally. Yeah. So I I'm asking you now, yes.
Yeah, I think so. I think it's a beautiful because it is it is the moment that decides Anakin's fate. Yeah. So he hasn't he's not really in the movies yet, but it's the moment because Ewan survives. Mm and Liam doesn't, and Liam would have possibly been a better mentor for Anakin. Yep. And so the jewel of the fates is that idea. Um and yeah, do you identify with any of the Star Wars characters the most?
Probably wicket? Yeah, Ewok, no. Well no, the main Ewok is called Wicked. I think it was called Wicked? Do you know what I think it was written up as Wicked?
Yeah, do you ever watch Carry Around a Courage? Yeah.
Yeah, I loved I I loved I was I think'cause of as a kid I loved the Ewoks. I'm pretty sure the wicked someone that
and you might be right now.
Loved, loved the airworks. No, I don't relate to them more m more than any of them. I just absolutely Or door the whole aesthetic in the forest, which was probably shot somewhere in San outside San Fran, I would have thought. Don't know. What w do you have a character you love?
Um yeah, well I'm I don't know, like it's it's hard.
I mean you've got all aspects of Han Solo.
The talent uh flick. La sabiduría.
All right.
The diet of Jabba.
I mean, yeah. I mean, how can you go past that as one of the best battle scenes on the sand barge? Like on the barge.
Yeah. Incredible. Yeah. Do you know they say that that's in the movie because Lucas wrote that scene?'Cause it it doesn't it's quite out of the story and he's like the audience need to win. 'Cause all these bad things have happened, with like, you know, Hahn getting captured and all this stuff happening that it was like the audience needed a win. So it's um
Yeah, it's it's a really I I really like Star Wars. Like I'm not a diehard. Like my older bro was like a fair bit older than me and he really loved and breathed this stuff. I don't know, it's a bit I don't think this will be uh I think this will be timeless. Andor. Have you watched Andor? Uh
No, I started. I don't think I... No, watch Mandalorian.
It is phenomenal. Okay. So yeah, look Star Wars. Soul is obviously culturally iconic. Like I don't know where it sits with you in like, you know, the Back to the Future, the Indiana Jones, like all those classic trilogies that like, you know, which is your favorite, um, and how you feel about that?
I think I could safely say Star Wars.
Yeah, really. Yeah. Yeah. And Harrison Ford, like what a crazy thing to be like a big part of two of those franchises. Like there's probably I'm trying to think if there's anyone who's had a similar thing where they've been across multiple 'Cause you know, it's interesting like Hamill, um
Carrie. Michael J. Fox, like but a lot of these people didn't go on and do other things really, like huge things, like big franchises. Whereas Ford, you know, famously discovered on set as a carpenter and Started quite late his life.
This has got something.
Charisma and like he's good looking and he's like, you know. So yeah, um but he also has significant acting chops as well. So yeah. So I yeah, I really like Star Wars and it um It is yeah. I mean it the space opera idea is a really cool thing as well because it is about relationships. Like there's battle stars and all this stuff. Um but y my favorite space opera, which I'll probably never be able to do. Um Flash Gordon.
Gordon's alive! I I I've watched that on repeat as well as a kid.
Yeah it's amazing when they have to put their hand in.
And the thing I got.
Yeah. And it kills them, doesn't it? Yeah.
That final battle sign.
Oh, and then they come over the they come through the clouds, don't they?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, but they're battling on the thing. It's incredible. And who's the baddie? He's a great, like, no, but the other that turns and becomes the goodie. Who's that actor? He's great. He's a good looking guy. And it's the baddie initially.
Kind of looks like that.
One has to do the arm thing, yes.
Yeah.
Would you cut turns to the
Haven't seen in over thirty years.
Turns the lights on. Yeah, could Tyler do Flash. Who would be flash? I don't know.
Oh
Wow.
¶ Connecting Star Wars to Parenting Principles
That was um that was cool. That even that answer was on topic. Okay. Um so yes. So what what are we gonna talk about? We're gonna talk about what what Star Wars is really about is about relationships and Star Wars is about like the duality of choice. Um, and it's a big choice that we have in parenting as well. And this is a topic that we've been asked a lot about.
Um, which is really um rewards and punishments. So we've spoken about this a bit over many topics, but I thought let's just put it in a spot. A lot of educators are like we're all waiting for you to talk about this, you guys to dive into it. So I thought we would dive into it. And Star Wars, why do you think Star Wars is a perfect if you think about think about punishments and the dark side? Like how does how does Vader control everyone?
Through the force.
Yeah, but how? How does he use the force? Yeah. Threats. Threats. Fear. Punishment. Control, I will control you. The Emperor is the same, I will control you. It's fear. Anakin, the reason he goes off the rails is because of fear and loss and grief. He's lost his mum. He has fear, he wants redemption, he wants to bring his mum back. He the you know, the dark side tells him that yeah, that will happen. Of power over others to keep yourself safe. You know, it's this interesting thing.
The beautiful thing about the arc of Star Wars is that we see uh a cycle break. Which is like the most powerful thing that we can do in parenting is break a cycle. And a lot of us in punishments and punitive approaches and physical discipline is a really important cycle we will break.
Is moving away from that. Okay. You know, and thinking about that's how my parents were because they didn't know any better. Yeah. Physical discipline, punishments, punitive fear, threats all over me. And we all do little versions of it. um and moving towards, you know, the Jedi.
And the Jedi is all about growth. It's all about support. It's all about learning. It's all about improving. It's all about skill sets, isn't it? Yep. Even think about Luke in the swamp with Yoda. There's no quick way to get
Not really.
You gotta do the work. You gotta yeah. And so there's you know.
You need a mind, you need guidance.
And he s sits with him that you know, there is no try, there is only do. And it's like this ethos of like we will get to this point, you will be able to do it. You know, and it's like it is this beautiful narrative where we see Anakin finally breaks his own cycle as well.
Where he sticks up for Luke and saves him. You know, so Luke saves him first, doesn't kill him. Luke has this like Really amazing emotional journey where he's trying to understand his story, where he came from, he's trying to like All he cares about is relationships and growth. He still has emotional turmoil, he still struggles, um, and he still lashes out in moments and we see it in this movie famously, but then he finds the control again and he has firm boundaries.
But he's able to exist in the world where fear and punishment don't control him and he doesn't use them to control others. You know, it's this beautiful thing and I think rewards as well have a similar vein that we should talk about, which is that
¶ Understanding Learning Theories in Parenting
I think rewards get too much negative press of like you're just externally reinforcing people and like, you know, they're only doing it'cause of what they're gonna get out of it. That positive idea.
And we know so there's four different ways that we learn. I can't remember if we've ever spoken about this on the podcast before. There's classical conditioning, which is the Pavlovian stuff. About the bell rings, the dog salivates. Yep. That's an involuntary response that Pavlov found in first in that research and then a lot of other research has shown that we can be classically conditioned to have an involuntary response.
such as around fear when we see someone who is threatening to us like Vadar walking down the corridor. You have a classically conditioned response to that where you just become afraid and you will comply'cause of that.
So think about in our own parenting journey, where do we come in as a classical conditioning where we want our kids to be classically conditioned, that they see us and sense us and we're with them and they they know through classical conditioning that that will be safe and supportive. Yes. Not punishing. Then we have what's called operant conditioning, and operant conditioning is A B C antecedent behavior consequence and that's a voluntary response that we have.
This thing happens beforehand, it causes this behavior. This is the consequence afterwards. So my sibling annoys me. I hit them. I get in trouble. So then you'll usually be more secretive about how you get them back when they annoy you. So you haven't actually changed the behaviour. you've just operantly conditioned them to be a different way because the response was a negative one. Mm-hmm The guy who came up with that, interestingly, is Skinner.
Have you heard of Skinner before?
Yes, famously like the principal in The Simpsons. He's named after F. Skinner, um, who who was the psychologist who came up with all this idea. So yeah, and Skinner's like that, isn't he? Skinner is a principal. It's just like fear, intimidation, I will reign over these students, like You know, it couldn't be me that's wrong, it's all the kids. You know, there's no like insight and reflection.
And then the third we have is social learning theory. And social learning theory comes around main main research that's a foundational aspect of it is little kids in a room. I don't know if I've told you about this before. Kids go into a room with toys and stuff. There's an adult in the room. The adult is like hitting toys and punching them and what's called a bobo doll, where it's a big like you know what there's ones that falls over and it comes back? Yep. And if the
If the adult's just playing normally, then and then the adult leaves, the kid plays normally. If the adult's punching the doll and then the adult leaves, the kid will punch the teddies, throw them, hurt them and all that stuff. And that's social learning theory. That's the thing I worry about when my kids are on the playground and likecha.
Antisocial behaviours are happening, kids are going just pushing past everyone else on the slide. All the kids watch that behaviour and it's contagious'cause they go a kid just pushed past, he didn't have to line up and he got to go first and he didn't have to wait. If he can do it, I can do it and they all just then do it.
The prosocial behaviour can have that same contagion, but the problem is the short victory of like the dark side, if just like I will take what I want because I'm bigger, faster, whatever. is what happens in a lot of antisocial behaviour development in kids. The highest level is cognitive skill development and that's the force. That's like I want to learn how to be good with a lightsaber. I want to learn how to use the force. And
It's interesting. Star Wars, like with the lightsabers and everything, it looks like they're physically battling. But they're actually mentally battling in all those moments. How? So they're thinking about like where is my strain, where is my stress, where is my fear, where is my control? The lightsabers are just an extension of what's going on in their mind. Like so that's why it's all about, you know, think about when he's hanging upside down in is it Hoth?
You know, and uh ice monster's got him, do you remember that? Yep. And he's trying to get his lightsaber. He has to find calm first. Yep. Before he can use the force and pull it to him. Whereas if he's terrified and he's worried, he can't access his higher functioning skills. Get it? And so the aspects of learning that we think about that we're trying to use to reinforce behaviours in our kids should always be ones that are positive strength based skill development.
¶ Effective Rewards: Skill Building and Relationships
And rewards can actually fit into that. Now the reward the idea of rewards when we want to use them well, whether it's a star chart, a tree, whatever needs to be paired with relational support that's trying to gain a specific skill set.
What does that mean?
So if for example,
I want the kids to take their bags up to their bedroom after school.
Yeah. So you could do that and just be like if you take your bag you get the lolly.
Yep.
You guys sweat. The problem is they don't understand the meaning behind it, what it ma why it matters to you. You're not talking about it in a way that you're getting better at this, you know, I'm really proud of you, you should be proud of yourself. All that narrative is
It's pretty full on after school. It's a bit chaotic in this house, isn't it? It's a bit wild. What do you think it'd be better if all of us trying before we get into play and just enjoying each other and all that stuff, we just put some stuff away? I'll grab your lunch boxes and I'll put'em in a sink. You grab your bags, take'em up into your room. We'll come back down together, we'll get to play together. Now, if that works, sweet. You can also be like, and do you know what we'll do?
I reckon we'll have a quick treat. You know what I mean? Like and so but you you don't use just the treat, you tie it as an initial external reinforcer or reward to the deeper underlying behavior that you're trying to build in the kid. And then the idea is that while they're having that external reinforcer, they're also building their sense of self. their capacity, their skill set, their shared goal setting and achievement around this matters to us, this is why we're doing it.
I feel good in my relationship with my dad and my sister because we're succeeding at this and then you specifically instantly reinforce it through that affirmation. That's when rewards can be helpful as reinforcers. On their own, they don't have as much depth in helping kids to develop skill sets and there's a risk in rewards when they're used to control. Okay.
What's the risk?
The risk is that I'm I if you If you hit your brother again, you're not getting a treat after dinner.
That's a punishment?
So we try and
If you flag before your kid hits The other one go if you guys play nicely today and no one gets hit, we get a treat after dinner. But if you don't play nice, you won't get the treat. That's a consequence.
So you have to be aware like a punishment.
Yeah. So this is about flagging stuff.
Yeah, it's about flagging stuff, but also tying it to a deeper meaning. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Deeper purpose, yep. Skill development, what matters to us as a family, the relational connection.
I can get around that.
Yeah, well I so I you know, I have to be honest. We often use them very superficially it to just get through the day. Where we're like, I need this kid to leave. And so I know all the research around like our choice is to decide what the food is and when we have it, the kids' choice is to eat it. But I'm also like, I just like them to eat something and so we're like, Hey, if we all eat well, we can have something after it, it's extra.
But then I try and be like, Isn't this yum? It's helping us go stronger.
call it when you like gatekeep. So the kid like comes in and says, Um you're just sitting there, you know, reading the paper in silence, having a great time at the kitchen table. I really believe it. It's a joke. Kid comes in and goes, Can I have a biscuit? I'll often go, Yeah, but can you take your stuff upstairs first? que nos asegurará
Yeah, great. I the same thing. Like and you you can tell when it's you're do or overdoing it a bit'cause Charlie at the moment is waking up at like five AM and he's like, Zupa duppa. But yeah, so he's just, you know, he that's all he's thinking about. So he's kind of too focused on that. If that's the first thought he has in the morning. But I will definitely use them if they come out'cause I want them to have some autonomy as well.
So if they come out I need to think about how it sits in the rest of our day and other meals and all that stuff. If they go I want an ice cream it's half an hour before dinner, I can set myself up a trap and give'em some. But but I also will see that opportunity. But for me I tie it a lot to experiences. So like For example, we used to do this thing in a joint you know on the main street we both used to live near where every couple of weeks we would go and have a milkshake at that joint.
And it would be a little bit of like how cool is it gonna be to have a milkshake? But it was actually about just forty minutes for us to sit there and just enjoy each other. And so there's an external reinforcer. But there's this internal relationship part that it's tied to. And I think whenever we're doing those things, whether it's like a treat or it's screen time.
or it's whatever, thinking about how can I move away from I'm using this to get control and just get through the day and survive and move towards I'm trying to build a specific skill set and there's a relational component to it.
¶ Rewards in Classrooms and Intrinsic Motivation
So that's when they work best. For example, a classroom. A classroom can have a star chart and it can have kids names and stickers next to it. But in the best case scenario it's because everyone has sat around and said what matters to us as a class. Being kind to each other, looking after each other. Let's think about catching moments when we're supporting each other. And let's map it and see how good we can all do together at it.
So it's not a pumitive thing, it doesn't make it competitive. It's really a collective thing that says what are opportunities to highlight. and amplify the success that we're having in the things that matter to us.
'Cause I think you said you were getting this question a lot from teachers around rewards and punishment. Um I think I might have talked about this one before, but in cases we're specifically talking about so I might find it. I got one good one on this. That I'm saying in my kids' classroom worth sharing. Is um they do that. They s sort of say this is the behaviours that they wanna see. Yep. And each time the sort of teacher sees it, they give them
um basically a token with their name on it sort of thing. Yeah. And it goes into the lotto for the end of the week. So there's not a scorecard of like uh eleven and Billy gets four, so Jimmy wins. It's like no He gets a uh uh Billy gets eleven chances in the draw at the end of the week and Jimmy gets four. Yeah. So it's not just about a leaderboard'cause sometimes people say a leaderboard and go
Yeah. I'm never gonna catch Jimmy's always got three on Mondays. Like I can't catch him. Um they put'em all in.
Or the other thing is like tokenistically making sure that every kid has got as many tokens and you know, like it's not great. Does that make it
What you're actually saying either.
Right. Yeah. Or just loses any value if it's like, oh, it just doesn't actually mean anything to me.
Twenty one.
What happens when the lotto
Oh, they draw it out and whoever wins wins.
What does that mean?
I honestly can't remember. I honestly don't know. Maybe a Zuper Dooper or something like that. I don't know.
So you know the best examples I've seen of that in school settings is when Take almost camouflage another skill development thing in the reward. I might have spoken about before but this amazing educator had this thing where whoever wins gets to pick one other kid in the class. It always has to be someone different that they go and do something fun with.
And it's this cool thing'cause you're kind of like the kid doesn't realise but you're actually building social development and capacity and confidence with the reinforcer as well. Just a cool thing, do I reckon? It's like You get to pick someone that you go to the wellbeing office and you go and get to do this cool crafting. Kids like wins and then gets to form a deeper bond with a peer through that process as well.
Like m you know, there's opportunities everywhere to reinforce the social and emotional development of our kids. And I think the idea that all rewards are bad and kids just should intrinsically be motivated to be good in the world. doesn't really understand how childhood development works.
You know, and some kids will need more support with their pro social development than others. But I think External reinforcers are okay as we use them as bridges to help develop intrinsic motivators and skill sets in kids that are reinforced through relations relationships, you know, like it's a It's a really I think it's a more helpful way than just the black and white thinking about we shouldn't use this stuff.
¶ Avoiding Destructive Punishments & Sibling Conflict
Now the punishments is an interesting like counterpoint to that as well of like I think they can be more destructive than rewards when rewards are used superficially and poorly. Um but you just want to think about like You know, we've spoken a lot about the worst punishment being that kind of love withdrawal thing. But I think a lot of us grew up with that and thinking about challenging and breaking those cycles of how were these things used in our home.
Like siblings being played off against each other with this stuff isn't great either, whether it's through rewards or punishment, saying like I struggle with this too, where I'm like, Look, your sibling, your brother or sister has finished their dinner, they're gonna get a treat.
You won't if you don't. Like it's just not great because it's like not a collaborative thing and we try and be like at our best when we're at capacity it's like we're all working on that thing together and we're not signalling out a kid and we're saying the reinforcer is something we will all get. And the reinforcer will exist in bonding our relationships with each other and reinforce reinforcing and highlighting that skill set as well.
Yep.
Of we're all working on being kind to each other. And it's been an interesting thing. Like Charlie innately has it. Charlie, like quite innately, if I give him something. Like I the other day what were we doing? We were building a a rocket,'cause we've been talking about space. And we're building a rocket
And we were like, What's the rocket gonna have? It's gonna have a bed and earth and all this stuff. And we were like, And I was like, Can I live in the rocket with you and go to space in the rocket with you? And he's like, Yeah, yeah, but he's like, Eve. And he's like he's always like that. You give him something and you give him a lollipop, he'll be like one for Evie. Like so he needs less support in that. Evie needed a little bit more help, but and I c I check in with her now where she's like
I'll be back.
you know, Charlie's done something amazing. How look, how good's Charlie getting at skateboarding? And she'll be like, Yeah, but I'm better like comes straight away'cause she's a bit like insecure about that and hearing the praise that Charlie's getting about something specific. And all I need to say to her now
It's like, Hey, remember we're all working on celebrating each other? And then she'll stop what she's doing, look at Charlie and she'll be go she'll go, Wow Charlie, you're getting so good at skateboarding and she feels good. And do you know what she does now, which has happened quite organically? She'll set up opportunities for him to win. So she'll be like, Charlie, let's have a race.
And she'll pretend that she's trying as hard as she can and then let Charlie win and celebrate it. And it wasn't that long ago. There was no way on earth that was happening. But I've what I've tried to do is say This is how we should be with each other, we should celebrate each other. And I'm not directly trying to stop them competing and having conflict.
I'm just putting a better pro social behavior in its place, helping them understand why and reinforcing that as part of their identity and strength.
Okay. I like it. I like it.
Good. Well siblings can be tough. And you know, thinking about How do I use reinforcers to increase the behaviour I want to see as opposed to punishments that I want to try and extinguish by negative experiences that are associated with them? 'Cause a lot of you probably don't have this, but I think a lot of us have experiences where there was conflict with the sibling and it was all about who can you convince Apparent that it was the other person's fault.
You know, and it's just combative, it's a really unhealthy ways to learn simulational skills. You take all the heat out of it. How? You say we you say things like we This is not good, we're not doing well, we all feel a bit crummy at the moment, we all seem angry. You're not trying to figure out whose fault it is. It's that collective responsibility. And saying, I'm sorry this is happening.
Wait, wait, wait.
¶ Parental Self-Reflection and Role Modeling
Way. Yeah. We I might have I don't know if I said this like it. I don't know if I I don't think I said this on the pod, I might have said it at a talk that I did recently. At the moment, I've been really conscious of like you know, Charlie's kind of taking the blame for everything. Like he's just such a sensitive, beautiful, pro social kid, like too much so. He has no like assertiveness in him. And so I'm trying to build that in him. But I've been like
I get frustrated'cause I can't find something and we're running late to something and they'll pick it up and I'm like, No, no, no, it's daddy's fault. It's not your fault. It's daddy's fault. And but now, every single time something goes wrong, Charlie's like, It's daddy's fault. And I'm like So'cause I'm just trying to take the weight off him.
So what do you do if your kids start saying, Oh, sorry?
Yeah, Charlie's like that. Do you know what? What do you do? I need to I was quite insecure, like as I was having that tough time that I was talking about in the Grizzy. And I don't know if you ever do this. I was like I'd done something. Um, I think I'd accidentally bumped Evie as we were getting onto the trampoline together'cause I was holding Heidi in my arms. And I bumped her and I was kinda like, Oh, I'm sorry, Evie,'cause I was like really insecure. We just had a tough two days.
And you know, I swear to God, four year old. She's like, It was an accident, you don't have to say sorry like that. She's like, You only say sorry like that when you've done something that's hurtful like something like that. I was like, Fire out Like sh you know, so she's kind of learning that difference but But I actually realised I was over apologizing'cause I was feeling insecure about myself. And so I'm role modelling to her an unhealthy way to be around always taking the blame.
And you know, and it is an interesting thing. It's a balance that we talk about in developmental pediatrics about like that idea of like, it's someone else's fault, it's all my fault and moving away from those two extremes. And thinking about it more deeply. Do you know what I mean? Like that's hard as an adult, isn't it? Yep. Yep. I'm having a tough time and I'm either looking around what external thing can I blame for how hard I'm finding this moment or I completely internalise it and go
This is'cause I'm hopeless and I always fail at stuff. Yeah. You know? Like and so thinking more objectively, validating that experience, but going like actually it's'cause of this. Okay. And but but actually almost um
broadcasting is what we call it, broadcasting that experience by verbalising it so our kids can understand that process that we're having internally because otherwise they c obviously can't read our minds. They can't see us working on a healthier way of processing that frustration. or when things fail and thinking about that. And I think there is like within the space of rewards and punishments, there is this
body of work that we have to do about how do we appraise these things for want of a less complex word. How do we kind of try and step back from what's happening, whether it's using the word we and saying we're trying to do better at this and all this stuff, but just kind of
sitting with them and helping them understand that they're all working on this, why it matters, all of that stuff. It's the it's very superficial approaches, even without the destructive component of punishments when we just use rewards and punishments to try and get kids to comply.
Mm-hmm.
¶ The Dangers of Fear and Safe Relationships
And fear, looking at Star Wars and the dark side, fear should never be used as a motivator in pediatrics. Fear's like a dangerous thing that can often cause kids to become either hostile or really permissive and just shut down that fawn response or that freeze response that's just
I don't feel safe'cause I'm afraid, so I'll comply and sometimes it looks like, hey, the kid's sitting quietly, the kid's listening to me now, the kid's not playing up on the playground. But if it's because of fear, it's dangerous. And you think about a lot of us, like Rebecca Harris tal talks about this beautifully actually, about how um I would have never spoken to my dad like that.
You know, the way that these kids do now. I would have always respected my teacher. And she talks about but think about, is it'cause you were afraid of that person? And if it's'cause of that, that's not what any of us want. I don't want my kids to ever have a moment of being afraid of me. You know, I have a personal history with that, and I hope that there's never a second in their life that they're afraid of me.
You know, I want them to think about my feelings and think be reflecting and when they get older be like I've let Dad down a bit. you know, because I went behind his back or I didn't tell him the truth or I said something hurtful. But I'll always want to have open arms for them to come and express that to me.
work through that, you know, like'cause our kids will sometimes say hurtful things to us. But a kid that's having an emotional tough time with you and I've had feedback personally on this recently that like Evie struggles more and she's around me, maybe that's because I'm a safe relationship. You know? If you're the uh if you're the educator that the kid always loses his control with and breaks down and cries or acts out, maybe because you're the only one that they feel safe to do that with.
You know, a lot of kids school is the safe place. And if you're the educator that can hold space with the kid when they're dysregulating, maybe you're the safest person in their life. And instead of thinking about punishment, think about what's going on for this kid. Yeah.
Yeah, I forget about that with my kids.
Yeah, just because a kid's struggling emotionally with you doesn't mean it's a bad relationship, it might be that to save one.
So and mum would be the safest relationship in our house. Yeah.
You're a very safe one too, mate.
Yeah, yeah, but
Yeah, but sometimes the safe relationships has to take a lot of emotional hits.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
You know, and Annalise and I have very different temperaments. Annalise is like just so cruzy about everything. She's I don't know how she's like that. I'm jealous of her, like I wish I was I can't be like her, I can't change my temperament.
But yeah, I think like she's a safe harbour in lots of ways for my kids. But I think often, you know, especially with my sensitive daughter, like I am the one that she feels really safe having those big feelings with and I don't want to ever use fear or punishments.
as a way to stop her doing that. No. And if she stops having that, I'd have to be careful and be like, is that because she's got a healthy way of processing it or is it because she doesn't feel safe anymore expressing herself? Yeah. Because there'll be a punishment.
¶ Star Wars Climax, Healing, and Practical Challenges
You know. Anyway. Cool. Is that making sense?
Yep. Makes sense.
Alright, shall we do the same? Yeah. Make it tight. Um so the same. Uh for any hardcore fans will know the amount of editing I've put into this because it was a nearly ten minute clip.
'Cause it bounces between
Yeah. Mm bounces between your your homies on indoor. The caravan of courage, God that takes me back. Um, it bounces between that and the throne room. Okay. Some would say the throne room the most important things in the Star Wars universe open in the throne room in this scene. Okay. And think about it as a cycle breaking. Think about it as fear and intimidation and punishments.
falling to the wayside because there is a more powerful relational approach that can be used to reinforce connection and relationships and skill sets.
So you've you've uh pushed together a few scenes.
I've just cut so essentially.
The throne room.
Yeah, so we're just in the throne room and just right before what's happened. is Darth has or Anakin has learnt about Leia and has said, if I can't turn you, I will turn your sister. Threat. Punishment. Trying to get Luke to turn, to comply through that.
Like attacks.
'Cause he's not perfect. He attacks, cuts off cuts off Vader's hand and sees the cycle, doesn't he?
No hatred.
Yeah, so we're gonna we'll get we'll get there. But he cuts cuts Start's hand off and he looks at his own hand, doesn't he?
Which is right.
And you realise he's just cycling. He's doing he's just repeating what's happened, an eye for an eye. You know, and what does he do then? Yeah.
No.
Yeah.
You keep asking me. Or sod I don't know.
You probably do it pretty well too. What's your what's your chewy like?
I look as old as Yeah bro.
Good.
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Your hate has made you powerful.
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Fulfill your destiny. And take your father's place at my side.
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I'll never turn to the dark side.
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You failed, Your Highness. I am a Jedi. Like my father brought it.
For me.
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ジェダイ
Young sky
Amen.
You will die.
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Help me.
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Gracias.
Just for once, let me look on you with my own eyes.
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Go.
Leave me? No. You're coming with me. I'll not leave you here. I've got to save you. You already have.
Yeah, what'd you think? Yeah, the force I had to cut out a for fair bit of forced lightning. I think they were so fond of that special effect that there's a few minutes of it. That's right.
Um it's an amazing scene. Um I
Yeah, I think...
I can s I I see how you tie it in now like the taking over and the choice about doing the right thing. Um
Yeah. Yeah. And also how he puts aggression aside, he puts fight aside, he puts fear aside, and he tosses the lightsaber, doesn't he? Yeah. And he's like Yeah, I'm not gonna do it. And like this hope that Palpatine had that like he would use hatred and he'd use fear and power and threats to, you know, keep exerting control on others and how the connection piece with Darth Vader and the opportunity to take his mask off and break the cycle of
fear and intimidation of others meant that it was healing and h he's been saved and Lucas saved him. And I think it's probably one of the most powerful things any of us will do that have had experiences that weren't great is break those cycles.
And that's I'm, you know, I'm lucky to meet families in clinic every day that are doing that and thinking about, you know, how How can we reflect on that and, you know, think about how do we move away from punishment, still have boundaries and consequences in a way to keep us safe, help our kids learn how to keep themselves safe?
You know, whether it's siblings or their peers looking after themselves on the playground, that healthy assertiveness, all those things, but also think about what do we want the kid moving towards. How do we try and build intrinsic motivation and intrinsic reinforcers where they feel good about themselves and they have that sense of achievement'cause it's something they cared about that mattered to them, that they specifically worked on. But thinking about sometimes we need bridges for that.
Sometimes we need to help set up our kids to succeed.
Give'em more rewards first and then
Yeah. And if we give them a pathway to success, often that helps them move along that.
Yeah. I think I think that I'm interested how you wean them off. the reward to the extrin uh the intrinsic sort of motivation, which will be good to unpack,'cause I'm sure we'll get questions on it. Yeah. Where people are like, Well, you know, how does how does this work? This how long does this have to work for?
Well, a lot of kids can definitely get stuck in that, so you're a hundred percent right. And we personally can too.
Tell me, tell me. I don't know many parents. Wow. I know a lot of parents in my circle you sort of Particularly with like your kids early on, you're like you send up in these put down cycles, putting kids to bed cycles and like it all involve it needs to be two blueies and a and a pepper pig, like that's your settling routine. Like and you're like, that's it. And then you find yourself in these weird cycles. You're like, how do we end up there?
Oh yeah, we're at the moment where it's like five AM they're watching T V because We just haven't had enough sleep and we don't have the capacity to play with them. And so the T V's going on and then you know, and I always look at people that like don't have a T V or don't use iPads and a mic That is amazing. How do you do that? Yeah, how do you do that? And I I don't think my kids suffer because we have a T V and an iPad.
But it it is I need to be careful about making sure that it's not dominating their life in a way that impacts their functioning.
So yeah, I'm not knocking yeah, I've been there and done all that. I'm still in those microcycles now as well, just with like I'll give you this if you do this. Do like how do you move'em from You know, doing their reading and getting TV to wanting to actually read. That's what I'm
¶ Listener Engagement and Episode Wrap-up
Yeah, to really use the two big intrinsic motivators of skill development stuff they care about and relationships as reinforcers. Like we'll talk about it a lot more. Yeah. So I guess that's in terms of questions, we really want to hear about people through different ages that are struggling with rewards and punishments and where it fits in, how to practically apply it.
I love some reflections about it, whether it's like cycle breaking or how you've changed that practice or whatever. And also it would be great if some professionals that work in this space can send in how they do it. Either the phenomenal educators in classrooms, heads of Thanks.
Senior classrooms as well as just kid classrooms.
Yep, yep, exactly. And also the Allied Health guys like you call come in, like the therapists and amazing other people that work in this space, all the professionals sharing their specific strategies, practical stuff. We know the PCP community loves that. And then, yeah, just all the usual stuff that we get would be amazing.
Some reflections.
Reflections, yeah. Awesome. My favourite bit.
Billy, I've loved it. I'm in this cycle. I don't think it's a bad cycle at the moment of specific rewards for specific outcomes. So I'm keen to hear everyone's feedback on this. So this is pretty timely for me. Beautiful. Um And yes, I think like you said before, uh on my Griswold it's like how am I actually gonna sort of figure out what's going on here to try and motivate a bit better to
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a really good bit. It was one of my favourite bits, yeah.
No dramas. Guys, enjoy. Make sure you email your questions to Pop Culture Parenting at Gmail or send them via the polls. So you've got to be following us on Instagram.
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