Harry Duran [0:01 - 0:02]: Ah.
David Ridgen [0:06 - 0:22]: Sometimes all people want to know is where's the body? Right? Like I don't care who did it. I want to know where she is. Is the. What I hear from mothers, you know, they did. They don't even need to get in the courtroom. They just want to find her or him or. And know where they.
Harry Duran [0:28 - 5:24]: Podcast Junkies, we are back. It's episode 152. I'm your host, Harry Duran. If you are new, then I'm virtually high fiving you because I love when new people find the show. I see comments every now and then on Twitter and on Facebook that people are discovering it and that just makes my my heart warm and welcome you to the Podcast Junkies family. So this is the show where we get to speak to a wide range of podcasters. That's the unifying thread. They're all amazing podcasters. Some have been doing it for 10 plus years. Some have just been getting started. And this is an interesting week. This is an interesting episode. My conversation with David Ridgen. But before I go there, in case you missed last week's show, we spoke to Clay Groves. He's the host of the Fish Nerds podcast. Probably ranks as one of the top album arts or episodes covers or what do you want to call it, Artwork. Because I always ask the guests to submit a photo so you know I'm putting them in the best light when I share it on social media. And Clay's did not disappoint. So please check it out. I won't give it away, but check out the artwork for episode 151. You can check that [email protected] 151 to see the very fun image that Clay spoke. We had a really fun time talking about ice fishing and all. He's a sort of jack of all trades and just a very entertaining personality. So that was a lot of fun to record. I met him at MapCon this week. Like I mentioned, David Ridgeon, he's a filmmaker at cbc, which is the Canadian Broadcasting Company. And he's been trained as a documentary storyteller and as a filmmaker, as a screenwriter, and as an investigative journalist. And he's been there over 10 years. And this is a really interesting conversation, guys and gals, because throughout the conversation we talk actually about the difference between making a podcast and making an investigative film. We mentioned the unfamiliarity of podcasts in Canada, how David goes about finding a case to investigate. This all comes on the heels, just to set some context of an introduction that was made to me where I found out about David's work and initially I'll be quite honest, I'm not a big fan of the true crime genre, but I think I've been limiting myself and after this conversation with David my mind has been opened up and to seeing and hearing some of the great work that folks like him are putting together. So I think you'll really find it interesting. Just continuing, we talked about how many families are still seeking closure from unsolved crime cases. And like we think like even with all the true crime podcast out there that there's a glut. But when you think about the that compared to how many unsolved cases there are, it's really probably close. Not even a drop in the bucket. And I'm just fascinated by the lengthy scripts that are involved to produce someone knows something specifically David's show. So really, really interesting discussion. I'm really happy to share share it with you. So as always, the full show notes are going to be [email protected] 152 and I really appreciate you guys taking the time to look through those and you'll see that we have I knew I was going to mess that phrase up. Tweetable quotes or tweetables as they're called. So if you see something that's of interest to you that we talked about, that's a very easy way to share. Any links mentioned, we have a summary, we have timestamps, we put a lot of work into those, a lot of our heart, soul, blood, sweat, tears, what have you. So if that's of interest to you, then definitely check that out. This episode is brought to you by Podbean. So Podbean right now is having a special they're calling it Celebrate the Holidays with Free Recording Gear and it's a partnership with Samson. As their way of thanking all the folks who are just kicking butt with podcasts, they've partnered together and provided a special holiday gift to one lucky podcaster. So from just ongoing through December 15th, any podcaster can enter. So you'll be hearing this in time to win a Samson streaming studio. It's going to include a dynamic microphone, desktop stand us USB mixer, headphones, XLR cable. Really, really awesome offer. All you have to do is head on over to podcastjunkies.com podbeansamson all one word p o d B E A N S A M S O N Podbean Samson and you can sign up for the giveaway there. Stay tuned to the end of the episode where I reveal this week's amazing retention hashtag. They're always amazing, aren't they? But for now, enjoy this really fascinating discussion. Really, really interesting with David. So, David Ridgeon, thank you so much for joining us on Podcast Junkies.
David Ridgen [5:25 - 5:26]: Thanks for having me.
Harry Duran [5:26 - 5:50]: So, David, we were connected because of some work that you're doing on Someone Knows Something. It's a new true crime podcast. And True Crime seems to be top of mind for a lot of people right now. And it was born from CBS Radio. So can you talk a little bit about the podcast itself and then we'll dig into a little bit of your background?
David Ridgen [5:50 - 8:29]: Sure, yeah. I mean, I do this podcast for Canadian broadcast, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, it's a public broadcaster in Canada. And I developed this original podcast with the podcasting group there, which was in its infancy. Basically, this was one of the first podcasts that they had developed. They had asked me to come in to develop a true crime podcast, and someone knows something was born out of that. And that itself comes from my history in investigations as a filmmaker at cbc. So I was involved in one of the first cases. In fact, probably the first case I worked on is this 1964 Klan murders of Charles Moore and Henry D. Which is the subject of season three. And the whole idea, the process is basically how I go about looking into these cases. I'll involve a family member. If they're interested in looking in the case, at the case. If they're like interested in, you know, looking into areas they've never looked at before, then they'll work with me and I'll work with them and look back at talking to witnesses, looking at information we haven't seen before. FBI files. In this case, police will talk to police. And sometimes families have in mind suspects or people that they've always heard or thought might have had something to do with it. So I record, you know, interactions in that direction as well. But. But the most important thing is the process of sks. So I record basically everything I do, all the interactions I have with family members and interviewees and even sometimes just ruminations about what I'm doing at the time. And that all kind of was developed in mid 2000s when I was working on the Mississippi case. And it's kind of transferred into someone knows something. In each of the cases we do each year, each, sorry, each season focuses on a different case. And I guess the first season was locally based in the town that I grew up in, the case of Adrian McNaughton, who disappeared on a fishing trip in the early 70s. And the second season was in a much larger community where I hadn't grown up and I had to make new inroads in Hamilton, Ontario, which is a large city. The Case of Cheryl shepherd third season will be a look back at a case that I've worked on already and had success with in Mississippi. And then season four is a case that I've also worked on before, but I'm adding new information to the case of Wayne Gravett. And then season five is this is all going to be coming up before the. Before the end of spring 2018. Season five is a new case made in more like the standard of season one and season two.
Harry Duran [8:29 - 8:41]: So you've also made four investigative films as well. Can you talk a little bit about the difference between the work that goes into making a film as opposed to what you're experiencing now with these seasons of the podcast?
David Ridgen [8:41 - 9:41]: Yeah, I love the podcast format because it affords a lot of space so we can tell stories in a much more breathable fashion. We can put a lot more depth into the story, we can put a lot more information in. Whereas in television, television documentaries and radio documentaries, radio is a little bit more expansive, but there's a tendency to edit towards the slot. So you have a, you know, a 12 minute slot or a 20 minute slot and you have to compact your message, you have to compact your interviews, and you have to compact your relationships all into those slots. Whereas podcasting allows you to tell the story to the length it should be. You know, it's also, it's not that podcasting is basically like reading a novel. It's not endless. But podcasting, in my experience in True Crime, allows us to tell the fuller story in a much more natural way, I think, than. Than any of the other media.
Harry Duran [9:41 - 9:51]: Do you remember when the moment when you realized or you became aware of podcasting as a platform for delivering this kind of message?
David Ridgen [9:51 - 11:13]: Personally, do I remember I remember hearing about cereal. I remember hearing about the success of cereal. I have not listened to Serial. I've not listened to Serial. I've actually not listened to very many podcasts, certainly. Well, I could almost say I haven't listened to any podcasts. I've only listened. I've only listened to few little dips and pieces of other podcasts, mainly because I don't like to feel like I'm going to emulate or copy or mimic something else. Sometimes we have a tendency towards doing that, even if, even if unconsciously. So I try to stay away from that. And as a doc maker, I also stay away from watching other People's documentaries, which may sound really strange to listeners, but I like to develop my own paradigm and also to be realistic, I just don't have the time to listen. I haven't made the time, I guess, also. But in, in expressing myself through these works and, and the time it takes to work with family members and look back at these cases, it's really all encompassing and that sort of juggling that with my personal life, my family life, I really just don't, I don't have the time to listen to their podcasts. But so SKS is the podcast that I listen to and not in a selfish way. I just think that that's just the way it works out.
Harry Duran [11:13 - 11:35]: So, yeah, it's interesting because Serial was a seminal moment for podcasting because it brought into the awareness the idea of a podcast. A lot of people don't even know what a podcast is. And do you have that challenge as well as you're sharing people sharing the story in SKS with other friends and family that you actually have to describe to them what a podcast is.
David Ridgen [11:36 - 12:53]: Podcasting in Canada hasn't really taken hold in the way that it has in the United States and possibly in Europe. Although it, I mean, SKS and there's other podcasts that are starting to become successful here. It's, it's just starting to, to gain some traction and get a critical mass. But yeah, when I speak to people and say it's a podcast, I still, I mean, people my age are younger. I'm 49 and younger, kind of get what a podcast is. They know some, even some of them are like, how do you do it? How do you listen to it? What do you mean? It's on your phone and then sort of older. It's like, it's really hard. It's like it's a documentary, right? It's a documentary and you can listen to it here, here, here and here. And it, it just confuses because they're used to one location, right. And one delivery method. And yeah, but I mean, it takes time to immerse into the situation. Even though they may have heard of Serial, they still don't know exactly what that might be, you know, and certainly I think the true crime podcasts have been leading the charge in getting into new areas and new audiences and bringing new audiences to podcasting as a format. I think it draws on a wide range of listeners in the true crime milieu, and then it may lead them towards other podcasts they never expected that they would be interested in.
Harry Duran [12:53 - 13:12]: You've been doing this for some time. In one of the recap episodes, you talked with the host about how you actually got called back to start SKS because you were a bit hesitant because of the experiences you've had previously as an investigative journalist. Can you talk a little bit about that as well?
David Ridgen [13:12 - 16:12]: Yeah, I mean, I worked on this, I worked on the Mississippi case, I worked on other cases in Mississippi from the civil rights era, Klan murders of African Americans. And I worked on several cases in Canada, three or four or four or five cases in Canada. And I don't want to overbear the, you know, that the burden I'm carrying and all this stuff, but it does have an effect. And when you work this long and in a very in depth way, you can't unsee the crime scene photos, you can't unhear the family members pain and guilt and suffering. And to me it, I just, I absorb that and it's really hard to un. Listen to that or unhear it. And it, it, it starts to get to me, particularly after a season's over, three or four months later, sleeping issues, etc. And I just decided I'd had enough. And I mean, I was always interested in working in lots of different kinds of media, lots of different kinds of storytelling and lots of different topics. And you know, I've worked in the Middle East, I've worked on political documentaries, I've worked on dramas. And you know, I never, I wasn't born when I was growing up thinking I'm going to be an investigative journalist, podcast guy, or a filmmaker that does investigations. I kind of fell into it, was successful at it and kept doing it for a while and it started to, it started to tear away at me a little bit in the same way that family members and police and anybody else involved in these cases can internalize these things. And I stepped away for a while and CBC came to me and said, we want you to come back. Consider this. I actually called all the family members I've ever worked with and asked them if they thought it was worthwhile what we had done. Do you think doing this was worth it for you? And you know, because I think we, we've cheat ourselves as media people and pretend sometimes that we're doing things that are much more extravagant than they actually are. So I wanted to get a bit of a reality check. And all of them said go ahead and do it. As I say in my, in the prologue, which may be a bit overborne as well, but they did say go ahead and do it. And I thought, well, if they thought it was worthwhile. I'll try it. Podcasting sounds exciting. I was really excited by the idea of hosting it and writing a lot of new writing. I was particularly interested in that. So I tried it and it's, you know, again, the same kinds of issues are happening, the same kinds of intense situations, sort of emotions that are coming up and dealing with family members and all the information that cases hold with them. I still have those, and those things are still starting to, you know, back up on me a bit. But it's been a great experience thus far, and at one point or soon I probably will have to take a bit of a break because it's been the success. You don't want to stop after the first two seasons and just you want to, you know, keep going. But there's a certain point where you have to kind of give yourself a break. And I really haven't had one for three years or about three years now. So it's coming on again.
Harry Duran [16:14 - 16:30]: One of the things you mentioned that I thought was interesting is that you had anxiety and panic attacks as a child. So I'm wondering, do you have a mechanism or system for, like, coping with this afterwards or decompressing or disconnecting from the subject matter? Because I imagine it's pretty. It gets pretty intense.
David Ridgen [16:30 - 18:01]: It does. I mean, yeah, I did have these panic attacks and just kind of came out of nowhere. Had that dealt with basically breathing. Breathing is the key to me, to success for me. And just a few deep breaths helps a lot to tell you that you have control of yourself. And it also actually physically, physiologically helps to calm you down, to do deep breaths, holding your breath, letting it out carefully, being conscious of where you are and what you're doing. It sounds kind of hippie language, but I guess I am a hippie. Anyway, it is. It is just breathing, and that really helps me. But I think dealing with those kinds of intense anxiety, moments of panic, even though they were coming seemingly from nowhere, have helped in several situations with SKS and other programming that I've done. Walking up to people's houses, knocking on the door and saying, hi, did you have something to do with this murder? And things like that? And just encountering anybody that has to do with the case, people often unload on me as a sort of almost a psychologist and. And I'm kind of. You have to kind of take that in and as part of the programming. Right. So they. Because they haven't had a chance to talk about this with anybody. They. They don't talk about it with family. They haven't talked to police about it. And here I am waiting to hear all of it. So. So I. I ask for it and I receive it. So there are situations where breathing really helps.
Harry Duran [18:01 - 18:32]: What type of training did you have or what did you learn along the way that helped you to become what I imagine is a need to be empathetic when you have these conversations. I mean, when you're hearing them, it's so intimate when you hear them via audio, because we're typically listening in earbuds. And so it seems like it amplifies the emotion and the pregnant pauses. And I'm wondering, is that something you just got better with over time?
David Ridgen [18:32 - 19:34]: For sure. I mean, I trained as a documentary storyteller, basically as a filmmaker, and that's what I've transferred sort of a cinematic nature to the podcast. And I've also trained as a screenwriter, and I learned on the job at CBC as a news person or as an investigator, as a journalist over, you know, the 10 years or so that I've been there as a staff member and then afterwards as a freelancer. But I mean, the main thing when you're doing interviews is really just to listen and to stop trying to jump on. On your subjects. You know, try to crush what they're saying. Or the pregnant pauses are important because the person you're talking to always wants to fill the pause. And you have to be aware of that. And if you don't have a question that you actually want the answer to, then don't ask it. Right? Like those are the two. The two rules are let the silence speak and only ask a question if you want the answer. Don't ask a question just to keep the conversation going. Those are the two rules. They're really simple.
Harry Duran [19:34 - 19:53]: And how do you go about asking the tough questions? Because there's a couple in there where you're going to open up an emotional can of worms. And I think you probably know that going in. So is there anything you do to prepare yourself to ask a really tough question, especially around these topics?
David Ridgen [19:53 - 21:46]: Well, when you go into an interview and you have, you know it's going to be a tough one or something likely to create some kind of anxiety in the subject. You first have to. You have to kind of make a protracted, very quick connection with, with the person so that they know that what's coming is placed in, in, in with a good heart, if that makes sense. So you have to create kind of a situation where they don't think you're there as a Black and white kind of, I know you did it person. Right. They need to feel that there's shit that you understand, shades of gray. As the questioner, they need to understand that you, as the questioner, respect them and. And feel that, you know, have empathy for them. You have to love your subjects no matter who they are. And that's another. That's. That's a key for me. That's how I think about it. And. And I try to make those connections right off the bat so that anything that comes after that becomes much more of an understandable part of the equation. You know, it becomes something that is more acceptable to. Even if it's, did you kill this person? You know, and often I won't say it that way. Often I'll say something like, if police had come to you and said, did you have something to do with this murder, what would you have said? You know, like, so it's not really me asking. It's me asking, but it's not me saying it. So that's just a quick example. That may not be what I do, but everything's different. I love the challenge of going in with just cold. I love not rehearsing. I love not knowing what the questions are first in any interview I do. I love. I love that. I just. I think that the situations have to be. You have to be malleable because the situation is going to change quickly anyways. So there's no point in having a list of questions. And I don't know if I answered your question or not, but.
Harry Duran [21:46 - 22:16]: No, that's fantastic because we, as podcast hosts, it's very relevant, and I'm fascinated by the idea of interviewing subjects and difficult interviews. And I love the fact that you said to have that pause and let that sit, because so many times we get so nervous with the silence that we feel the need to fill that space, and we end up losing a really good opportunity because sometimes people need time to think about it. An answer.
David Ridgen [22:16 - 22:56]: Absolutely. And I would say in almost every interview, you lose those opportunities. I do it all the time still. I still feel like I have to jump in sometimes. And, you know, I really didn't just, I'll wait the pregnant pause. I'll wait another pregnant pause. Then I just say the first word of something, and they're about to answer with something. They're about to give me what I was waiting for. Right? So if I'd only waited that. That third pause, you know, so the more time you give to wait for responses, the better. And obviously, the more it's genuine. The pause. It's not like you're just sitting there looking at your watch. It has to be germane to the conversation, obviously.
Harry Duran [22:56 - 23:13]: But anyway, as you were getting experience in investigative journalism, were there folks that were in the space that maybe you considered a mentor or people that you looked up to or people maybe who in the beginning that you emulated as you were getting your feet wet?
David Ridgen [23:13 - 25:03]: Not really. And that's not to say that there's not a lot of great investigative people that have come out of CBC or out of Canada in general. I guess as a documentary maker, I was interested in the work of Michael Moore, not necessarily in his politics, although I do tend to agree with a lot of the things he says and does. It's just the way he approaches things directly as the sort of creator of the chaos around him. I like that kind of approach where you're facilitating an action and that action turns into a documentary moment. I think that sometimes you're creating a theater when you do that, and that's not my interest, but I like the idea that you can sort of make situations where the luck comes to you and you create a situation where something might happen in terms of getting information from somebody. And I guess that would be one person I would cite or in early days. Right. Like way back, Roger and me, sort of stuff. And I can't really say any other particular person because I really just kind of developed my own way of doing things, working with the family members. And that was it. Way back in the. I don't know, mid 2000, 2004, really, it started, and I just went from there and kind of made my own paradigm. I hope that doesn't sound arrogant. I don't have any mentors. I mean, I've had a lot of people help me. I've had JS Journalistic Standards and Practices people at CBC helped me with, you know, talking to them on hidden camera or hidden mic situations. I hadn't known that you needed sort of certain permissions to do. And obviously I get all those permissions before I do anything. We have a great legal team at CBC who have informed almost everything I do. And there's a great people that I work with too, on the show.
Harry Duran [25:04 - 25:16]: Yeah. How do you go about finding a case? Because I imagine there's a lot of cases out there that are unsolved. So what's the process you use to figure out which one you want to dig a bit deeper into?
David Ridgen [25:16 - 27:52]: Yeah, there's hundreds, thousands of cases. It's a real. There's no shortage of cases. So I have stacks I had in the old days, I had stacks of actual paper on my desk for cases. And I'd go through them and look for a few pillars, one of them being a family member who was desperate or interested in helping find a solution to the case, somebody who hadn't already done that, somebody who always wanted to look back at the case but didn't have the means or the sort of facilitation to let that happen. I look for law enforcement that are interested in helping in a real way and cooperating and collaborating in a real way in a certain, you know, journalistic fashion, willing to talk about, you know, a case and more than just sound bites. And I look for cases that had maybe a viable suspect that got away or somebody who was suspected and had been named even in the media, but some kind of technicality got them off or some, for some reason, something didn't go properly in the trial period or pre trial period. I'll look for that. But often I'll get people emailing me and we get this all the time on SKS now and say, look, my brother died. Mysterious circumstances. We've always wondered what happened. My mother says, this guy, this guy did it. We've never had anybody help us. Here's all the information. Will you please help us? And we get a request like that, at least two or three a day sometimes, it seems, and we have to evaluate them. And, you know, sometimes we get, I know who killed JFK too, right? So it's like. And so you have to decide, maybe the person does know, but do we have time to figure out if they really know and whatever. So we have to evaluate each case on its own merits, if we have time. It's a small team. Our budgets aren't extraordinarily huge by any standards. And I'm one person. And the way the show is structured, I have to do the interviews in the field, I make the relationships, I approach people for access, and it's pretty much all siphoned through my bottleneck. So I'm only capable physically and mentally of doing one or two cases at a time. And, you know, that actually adds up to sort of one or two cases per year. And so, you know, with hundreds going through the bottleneck of, you know, trying to figure out if we can do them or not, we're really only going to get to a very tiny fraction of them. But that's why it'd be so great if more podcasters could undertake some things like this. I think there's a Lot of room in this market, in this area for quality work.
Harry Duran [27:52 - 28:20]: Yeah. It's interesting because it seems to be a resurgence and it seems like the podcasting platform has really allowed for the creation of these types of shows that otherwise would not have been in the public eye or ear, so to speak. And I think to your point, the fact that there's hundreds, if not thousands of these, I guess there's not going to be any shortage of opportunities for people who are interested in investigative journalism and moving it to the podcast format.
David Ridgen [28:21 - 30:04]: Yeah. And I think people. Audience of sks, I think, understands this now, that the process of looking at these cases is as important, if not more important, than actually the outcome, at least right away Anyway, because there's 95% you're never going to get to the conclusion, get into the courtroom, get a conviction at the end of the podcast. I mean, I think people who expect that, that's ludicrous. Right. And I think that the process of the story of involving the family member, their personal journey through the case, how they change from beginning to end, like in screenplay format, you know, how does the main character change from the beginning to the end that defines that it's a. That it's a screenplay. Those are important elements to SKS that I think people listen for. And I think our listeners understand that justice is. Takes a while. And sometimes justice doesn't take the format of just a courtroom. You know, sometimes truth is enough for a family to get what they call closure. I think it's a problematic term, but family members say closure all the time. And closure can just be facing what you always feared. Right. And it's like throwing somebody into the elevator, I always say, who's afraid of elevators? And that's an important story. Hearing that journey and experiencing it, seeing family members listen to stories that other people tell them, witnesses tell them, learning about their lost loved one or in ways that they've never known before, feeling like they have power and agency. Those are important factors and not to be overlooked. And I think they're actually the highlights of our series. That's how I see it.
Harry Duran [30:04 - 30:36]: What's interesting is that for a while I was of the mind that the true crime is just sensationalizing the crimes. But it's not like. And I think what you're doing with investigative journalism is you're really shining a light on these cases that would otherwise have gone unnoticed. But this, this aspect of closure, I think is really important. And if there are hundreds and thousands of cases out there, there's potentially that many families who have yet to have that sense of closure with regards to their respective case.
David Ridgen [30:37 - 31:37]: Absolutely. I mean, there's as many families, like, if there's a case, there's going to be a family, there's going to be friends, there's going, you know, huge tree of people connected in a web to the case that have had some kind of, you know, loss connected to them. And humans can experience lots of different kinds of loss. And sudden disappearance of somebody has got to be one of the worst because the answers just don't ever come. Right. Sometimes all people want to know is where's the body? Right. Like, I don't care who did it. I want to know where she is. Is the. What I hear from mothers, you know, and they don't even need to get in the courtroom. They just want to find her or him and know where they are. Right. That's what troubles humans. Not necessarily because justice. Okay. You go to the courtroom, you get the guy, he gets to jail, you walk out and you still have the loss. Right. So it's got to be more than just getting into the courtroom.
Harry Duran [31:37 - 31:37]: Truth.
David Ridgen [31:38 - 31:41]: Truth is a big part of it. Right. And you can't get to the courtroom without finding the truth.
Harry Duran [31:41 - 31:56]: So, yeah, that's really important. You touched a bit on the team. Can you talk about the importance of having that support team around you and how everyone is contributing to the final production?
David Ridgen [31:56 - 33:57]: Sure. So first season, it was really. I did most of everything on my own. I had some help from associate producers. Second season, it was much more sort of. We got kind of a little bit of a model going, a work model. And it got to the point where I would write most of the scripts I think I wrote up to season in season two, up to episode seven or eight, and then I had some association because the time comes so quickly and I'm not able to keep up with gathering information, you know, figuring out what the script's going to be and then getting it ready for broadcast once you start going. I don't. I don't ever start a season with all the. With everything written. So there's always like a kind of. The treadmill starts to go faster and faster as. As the episodes come out. And it gets to a point around episodes eight, nine, where I physically am not able to, you know, consider looking at all the scripts myself. So I've had last season, a couple of associates or a couple of producers that are working with me chunk out some of the episodes, and then I'll come back and we'll work them together. And then I'll work on the last two episodes kind of thing. So I have had help chunking episodes together. And same goes for season three as well, where I was trying to take a break in the summer. It turned into a two week break rather than four months is which I had planned. I had help constructing, you know, from my previous work, which I had like, you know, hundreds of hours of material from putting, you know, chunking together, structure and example, voiceover and things. So I go and then rearrange and rewrite. But it makes it a lot more easier for me to consider doing multiple seasons within a year. And I think, I think the regular seasons, like season five coming up, season one, two and five, it will be the same. It'll be mostly me writing everything, but there may be a couple of episodes that I get some help with.
Harry Duran [33:57 - 34:01]: How much time would you estimate goes into each episode?
David Ridgen [34:01 - 36:00]: Oh gee. Well, field recording, you've got to do the field gathering, you've got to do transcription of everything. Everything has to be transcribed before you even start writing. And then there's the writing process, there's the vetting of the script. So it goes around to everybody, including lawyers. Once it gets vetted, there's the rewriting and then it gets, you know, looked at again and then there's more rewriting and then it goes to mix and then there's vetting of the mix and lawyering of the mix and. And everything happens sort of in sequence. And then so you've got episode one, that's happening too. And then you've got to start episode two. So eventually you get like four episodes all at different stages and it becomes a bit chaotic. And you know, which one's been lawyered, which one hasn't, which one's gone through first draft, which one's a second draft. It's a real production process. It's not just sitting me talking off the top of my head and then put it to air. You know, it's. It's very much a process and constructed. It's a constructed series, very carefully constructed. It may not sound that way, but we like it to sound as natural as possible. But. So how much time does it take? Geez, it's hard to know, I would say, from so field production. Usually I don't even how to estimate that. Be two months off the top and then that's me doing interviews and stuff. And then if new things come up, I'm back out in the field recording. So that's another three weeks on top of that, just field recording over time. And Then the scripting process is probably a month and a half to get one script in shape. And then. And you know, you do a lot of this concurrently, so it's not like each. You're waiting a month and a half for each script. You're doing them sort of three, two or three at the same time. And then all that other process takes about another three weeks. So I can't even estimate it. It's a lot of work from top to bottom, bottom to top.
Harry Duran [36:00 - 36:09]: How important is the music? I mean, it's all audio and it really sets the scene a lot of times. So how much thought goes into that?
David Ridgen [36:10 - 37:37]: Well, we have a great mixer. Cecil Fernandez is our mixer and he's worked on the show for season two and season three, and he'll be doing season five and four. And he's amazing. And I just kind of. I'm in awe every time I listen to his mixes. And I think Cecil tries to make them as cinematic as possible. He takes music from lots of different sources. We have some music that's brought to us by independent music musicians. We have some music that's created by people on the show, actually, and other music that he gets from other sources and he tries to layer the music. But also I in the field gather a lot of source audio, a lot of wild sound that Cecil uses as part of the score. So there's a lot of natural sounds happening. What's going on around me, wind chimes or dogs or me shuffling papers or walking into a house with the creaky door. All that adds to the sort of the world that I'm in. And we try to keep people in that world as much as possible without jumping out of it. And this, I think in season five, we're going to try to. I'd like to try using less voiceover from me, if possible, and using more in the field discussion because I'm trying something new where I talk more about what I'm doing while I'm there. But inevitably there's going to be transitional moments where I'll have to use voiceover. But we're going to try a slightly different approach, I think, for season five.
Harry Duran [37:38 - 38:03]: Well, it's really fascinating because it's a bit different than what we normally do as solo podcasters. And it's always interesting to see the production process for what you're doing and the work that's involved behind the scenes so that we end up with maybe like a 20 minute, 30 minute episode sometimes. And this probably hours, if not days of total work. That's Gone into that?
David Ridgen [38:03 - 38:19]: Oh, I mean, yeah, Scripts. Scripts start at about 100 pages and they end up sometimes around 70, and then the mix takes it down to about 55, you know, like, so we get. You get cut, cut, cut, cut. But the scripts can be anywhere up to 120 pages for each episode.
Harry Duran [38:20 - 38:20]: Wow.
David Ridgen [38:20 - 38:44]: Yeah, it's a. It's quite a process. And it has myself, I have myself asking myself, maybe I should just call family members for each episode and just talk to them for half an hour and that's it, you know, like, just talk about the case or something. But then I just. No one's going to be satisfied with that. Then I would feel exploitative and I would feel like it was just a flavor of the week or something. You know, it's not what I do.
Harry Duran [38:44 - 38:55]: So. Yeah, and I'm also curious because, you know, as podcasters, we also have our normal lives going on and so how important is the support of friends and family as you're going through this process?
David Ridgen [38:57 - 40:34]: I tend to involve my family in the work because I don't like spending a lot of time away from them. So I tend to involve them in going to these places. They don't come with me on the record sessions and they're not standing behind me or something, but I tend to take them along with me and then I go and do something if it's away from my Toronto home base area. But they're very understanding. They all know the cases. My son knows everything about the season three that's coming out. He knows everything that I know about the case almost. He grew up with it. He's been in Mississippi with me more time, as many times almost as I have. And I think it's important actually for support in my case especially. I don't think I wouldn't be able to do it without that kind of closeness with close knit sort of family connection. And also friends are involved. I've got friends coming. For example, for season three, the Mississippi case, I had two or three different friends come down with me just to help out, you know, they were interested, so they came. And I make friends on these cases as well. So I'm in touch with not only family members who become friends in a way, all the family members, but also, you know, ex former police and everybody. I've got this kind of huge crowd behind me that you know, and I'm sure you do. Anybody who does any kind of fieldwork and close knit kind of intense situations develops friendship and that really helps me. It's kind of like the support group, and I have people calling from different cases and asking me how this one's going and trying to provide support that way.
Harry Duran [40:35 - 40:44]: Yeah, we can't understand enough the importance of having that support group, especially when you're dealing with a topic as tough as what you're doing with the podcast.
David Ridgen [40:44 - 41:01]: And it's a bit of a balance. Obviously, I'm not going to come home and say, yeah, I just saw body blown to smithereens on a picture. You know, like, I. I don't try to involve them in that way. I, you know, they. I just talk about the case and things like that. I don't want to give the impression that I'm, you know, sharing personal family information with the family. That's not what I'm doing.
Harry Duran [41:01 - 41:02]: But. Yeah.
David Ridgen [41:02 - 41:03]: Anyway, just a couple.
Harry Duran [41:03 - 41:10]: Couple more questions as we wrap up. Just changing gears a little bit. What's something that you've changed your mind about recently?
David Ridgen [41:10 - 41:23]: Something that I've changed my mind about. These are questions I don't do well on because I change all the time. Like, people say, what's your favorite? You know, give me your top 10. And I say, I don't have a top 10. You know, it just, like, it changes all the time.
Harry Duran [41:24 - 41:28]: All right, so. So one more, and we might be over two here, but I'll give it a shot.
David Ridgen [41:29 - 41:29]: Sorry.
Harry Duran [41:29 - 41:33]: What's the one. What's the one most misunderstood thing about you?
David Ridgen [41:35 - 42:12]: Well, maybe I think people feel that I'm really intense, that I'm a really intense guy. Just before I even open my mout, there's something about the way I hold my eyebrows. And sometimes people think I'm this really intense guy, and I. And I'm like, what are you talking about? I'm just, like, standing here and. But I mean, I don't think people hear that in sks. I think when I go to the door and start talking to people, like, I don't frighten people away. I don't fear people running away from me. But I've been told over and over and over again that I'm this. Like, people are intimidated just by me standing in front of them, and I don't understand that, and I feel misunderstood on that front.
Harry Duran [42:13 - 42:22]: Yeah, it seems like you got to go the extra mile just to convince people that you are actually a nice guy then.
David Ridgen [42:22 - 42:31]: Exactly. Well, yeah, I mean, I feel that I have to, like, talk extra quiet, you know, in order not to frighten people away or something.
Harry Duran [42:31 - 42:59]: Anyway, yeah, I want to thank you for taking the time to jump on the call. It's Been really interesting because, you know, the world of podcasting, no one type of podcast, as we've come to find out, and there's people doing so many interesting things, and the true crime and investigative journalism is really fascinating. So I'm glad you were able to shine a light on the process because it's fascinating for us as podcasters to see the work that gets involved and how dedicated you are to this craft. So thanks for taking the time.
David Ridgen [42:59 - 43:29]: Oh, thanks. Thanks for taking the interest. I think there's a lot of room in the podcast area for investigative work too. Not just on true crime, but, you know, white collar crime, you know, anything, any. Any kind of crime, you know, political crime, especially now. And I just feel like that's just wide open. And I think there'd be a lot of years interested in that and, and agency. Like you're. You're actually getting something done, you're making something happen. And I think people enjoy hearing or taking. Taking part in that process.
Harry Duran [43:29 - 43:35]: Very interesting. What's the best place for folks to get more information about you and. Or the podcast?
David Ridgen [43:35 - 43:49]: Well, I have a website, ridgeonfilm.com that's my last name, ridgeonfilm.com and also there's the SKS, sorry, CBC CA SKS. And that's our SKS webpage at CBC.
Harry Duran [43:50 - 43:55]: Okay, well, make sure to put all that in the show notes, and thanks again for taking the time and sharing your story with us.
David Ridgen [43:56 - 43:57]: Oh, thank you. Take care. Bye.
Harry Duran [43:57 - 47:01]: Bye. I'm very grateful for David for coming on the show and for the way in which I was introduced to him, because he wasn't on my radar and it was just a way for me to continue to open up. If I remember correctly, it came through a press release notice. I've been getting a lot of those recently as podcast junkies is getting more visibility and I take the time to read them. And if I find something that's engaging or I see a host that's doing something interesting, I'm opening myself up. Typically, I would only be someone that I'd engage with at a conference, but I like the idea of mixing it up, and I feel it's my responsibility to introduce you to just new genres and new types of podcasters. That's not a one size fits all. We don't all do the same thing, and we don't all do it in the same way. And I think we share this common umbrella or we are under this common umbrella of being just passionate about podcasting. And so I'm going to continue to do that as much as I can. On our way to episode 200. Intro and outro music as always, composed by Cedar and Soil. Check them [email protected] don't forget to visit our sponsor and support our sponsor, Podbean. You can sign [email protected] podcast junkies and to take advantage of that giveaway and their partnership with Samson that equipment giveaway, head on over to PodBean. Sorry. Podcast junkies.com podbeansamson Tune in next week for my conversation with someone who I've had the pleasure of helping with his podcast. He's a good friend. He lives here locally. Just an amazing, amazing storyteller. I'm so excited to finally get him on the show. He is Professor Eric Truls, otherwise known as Truls, host of E Travels with Etruuls. It's a joy when I get to speak to someone who has such life experience. It just makes for a much more engaging and fun conversation. And on top of that, he's a really good friend as well. So excited to bring you that that's going to be happening next week. You have no doubt stayed to this end to the end of this episode because you are a super fan and because you know what's coming. It's the retention hashtag. So this week it's going to be CBC David in honor of the Canadian Broadcasting Company. So it's C as in Charlie, B as in Boy, C as in Charlie David. That's the hashtag. And you can tag myself podcastjunkies and David @ Dridion. That's D R I D Ridge and just let us know you made it to this far and be included in the super secret club. I might have to get a ring for you guys at some point. Don't forget to sign up for our newsletter to receive my weekly episode updates. Podcast junkies.com 8tools if you're new and for the veterans, if you have not done so already. You know that I keep asking you and you know that I'm speaking specifically to you because you haven't done it. Podcastjunkies.com iTunes and leave us a beautiful five star review if you believe I merit it. That's all guys. Thank you so much. Have a fantastic week and thanks again for your support. It means the world to me.
David Ridgen [47:18 - 47:19]: It.