236 Co-Creating Magnificent Sex

Welcome to Playing With Fire, the podcast for people who are ready to custom build their love. We're talking about non-monogamy, however you design it, as an individuation opportunity. Want to leave the default and make your life spectacularly you? You're in the right place. Ken, let's co-create Magnificent Sex. I'm here. I'm in. Okay, but not now. Now let's just talk about it. We're not going to record that. Yeah, we'll just talk about it. Okay.

The title of this episode actually comes straight from a book, a book by Peggy Kleinplatz and Dana Minard. This book is the culmination of a... Really impressive study. For those of you listening, the title is Magnificent Sex. There you go. Wait, the subtitle is Lessons from Extraordinary Lovers. This all sounds a little cheesy. I get it. But bear with me because studying.

What creates a pleasurable experience is way harder than studying things like pain and suffering because we don't, first off, we don't throw money at that. And we don't, and it's really hard to get. sex research done for a million reasons having to do with capitalism and patriarchy and control of pleasure. But also, it's just actually hard. We have to quantify things that... Typically, we don't quantify. We have to figure out definitions for things we typically treat as very subjective.

I have clients ask all the time, how do I have better sex or how can I have more pleasure?

I'm an ASEC certified sex educator. I love talking about this stuff, but it isn't, it's not the center of our podcast, but I would say it is the center. Well, maybe not the center, but definitely a center of our relationship. We've been. building on a foundation stone of sex being like really important to our relationship. And then about, what was it now? Maybe two years ago.

things started going awry. Yep. Which wasn't the first time our sex life had had a stumble. So I wasn't panicked or anything, but yeah. We had about 18 months. It was a long time. That's the thing. We all stumble at times. There's always wobbles in every aspect of life, but this one went on. For a while. It went on. This was not just a momentary stumble. We were struggling. We had built so much of our connection and reconnection ritual around sex and sexual energy and so much of how we...

talked to each other and related to each other in a little ways throughout the day had a sexual overtone. Yeah. So much of our energy exchange had a significant sexual portion. Yeah. And so. And then it was sucking. It was not working. And I want to state really clearly, we were both experiencing. It was just not working for us. And we didn't stop having sex, but it was just not.

Like there were numerous issues that just kept getting in our way. And it went on long enough that it was like, started to feel like, so I guess this is it now. And the way things used to be is in the past. Which was definitely causing me some very significant questioning of like, well, I don't know whether this relationship continues in this form anymore. Because. I wasn't ready to be done having a magnificent sex life. And while I was having sex outside of this relationship,

Not having sex as part of this relationship with you still felt like it was rubbing up against deal breaker territory. Right. And that sounds nonsensical to some people. I have heard so many people, especially in the early stages of their non-monogamous journey, think, well, if our sex life isn't working, that's okay. You can just get that need met elsewhere. And it's true. I could get...

sexual needs met elsewhere, but I couldn't get my sexual connection with you met elsewhere. Yeah. Our erotic overlap really energizes. all the rest of our relationship. Yeah. And I wasn't ready for that to be done. And you weren't saying that you were done or anything, but it just wasn't working. And I was applying. My... I was playing my...

skills and tools to the problem that had become. And it was hard. So I actually turned back to the basics. Um, it went on for so long, I think in part, because for the first whole year, I I kept listening when you would say like, well, it's just that right now I'm going through this stress or this is happening. And we were going through a bunch of stressful situations. That is true. But it wasn't until...

Well, basically, we got to a time right around, oh, it was a beautiful time. We got to a time in the midst of 2020. where everything actually was great. Right. And I wasn't buying it anymore. It's not all stressful. Oh, yes. Like actually everything was good. So that's what made me suspicious. Yep. I started turning back to the tools that I apply in my professional work because I hadn't actually thought to apply those exact tools. I did.

It's so easy to trick ourselves into thinking, time will fix this. It'll just get better. And it wasn't getting better. Yeah, thinking that the only reason it's not better is because of context and the context will change and then it will be better. And I got to say that if you're out there thinking how.

How can I improve my sex life in whatever direction it might happen to be pointing right now? If you're thinking, yeah, how can I? You're just taking a big step. The imagination that it can get better. The imagination that there are things you can do to make it better versus, geez, I hope this gets better soon. Yeah. Yeah. That's where, for me, it was super important for us to get back to.

really asking the question, what exactly do we mean? What do we even mean when we're talking about sex? Because that is one of when I think about co-creating magnificent sex. Well, I need to know, are we talking about the same thing? So I started opening up conversations with you to get back to some core definitions, things like, well, what is sex and how do you know when you're having it and how do you know when you're not?

And these questions, they might sound silly, but actually they're really important. They are. And then some refining questions around, well, what's the difference between good sex and magnificent sex? And I do think that these are subjective, like, answers. We're all going to give subjective answers. But my answer for what magnificent sex is, is it's got to shake my soul.

Like this is not just about my body. I can have fantastic orgasms and still be like, yeah, that's fine. But that is not, that is not the level to which I have become accustomed. Right. And that's what I want out of my life. I want that soul-shaking, identity-shifting, life-affirming, I am here. And oh my God, I am so amazed to be here. kind of sex the the kind that yes i i agree with that when it when it lights up my existence in the moment yeah all of a sudden i am present in ways that

I am often not, partially because they don't belong outside of the sexual arena. But yeah, I agree. Let's be clear. Magnificent sex isn't about good technique or lots of novelty or something particularly kinky. Although... it might include any or all of those things. It's about the meaning behind it. It's about connection and depth. That's connection to self.

just as much as connection to other. Because I can also have magnificent solo sex, the kind of sex where I shake my own soul. That counts too. And connection is, yeah, you can connect to yourself. and depth. I think that's a really important word in this because I can, I can connect to myself at a bunch of different levels and the ones that really go deep into areas of myself that.

don't get that don't move around much don't get a lot of attention they don't get a lot of attention because they don't fit into the daytime work a day world yeah yeah it is um so magnificent sex is a way of reconnecting to self and to other, which is why for me as a depth psychologist, I think about sex as a psychoid event. It's a place where the body and psyche meet.

in archetypal currents, right? That's psychoid where the body and psyche meet? The overlap of the body and the psyche is, it's hard to pin down. And this is a... It's too big a concept to dive into fully here, but to touch the archetypal level of existence, that is powerful. And honestly, it's also, let's be clear, it's not the only kind of sex I want to have.

I also want to have just plain old let's connect and it'll just be gentle and easy and maybe we'll have an orgasm, maybe we won't. Yeah, it doesn't have to be magnificent every time. Yeah. But it's really good to know that there's access to it. Yeah. And then we could think about like, there's a difference between having a good enough sex life and a magnificent, I would describe.

the overall of my sex life right now as magnificent. And I'm also still having some average or even boring sex. That's true. So it's not just about the event. But what I loved about the ideas in this particular book is that there are common factors. There are things that people are doing.

that show up over and over, key themes. And if we look at key themes based on interviews with couples who described their erotic life as magnificent, and we see these themes, well, now we know what to shoot for. So when people ask me, how do I make my sex life better? I mean, there are a lot of answers and some of them are only going to be found within, but also we don't have conversations about like.

what it is to have fantastic sex. Sometimes we brag about it, but then it's kind of vague. But we don't get into the details of, so how did this happen? Exactly. What was it like? Details. Exactly.

Um, there's a, there's a lot that goes into this, but I think let's just right off the bat, talk about some of the key themes, the things that are present in this, this kind of this tone of sex. right you mentioned one already presence you're there you know that you are there you're not um this isn't mindless it isn't um

You're not distracted. You are absolutely present and immersed in the moment. Yeah. Yeah, that definitely, for me, and that's something that's incredibly hard for me to achieve unless I... put some intention into it. It doesn't happen by accident for me. Presence doesn't happen by accident. Related to that is, and I do tend to be a little bit more present moment to moment.

But what I struggle with- Than me? Yes, that's true. Than you. Yes, than you. But whereas the mutual vulnerability is one that I struggle with. But what I have found is that that's another one found in- In the book, this is a common theme. Mutual vulnerability. You're really good at that. You're really good at opening right up. And I find that there are parts of me that are like, no, no, no. Close your shields up. Yeah.

Absolutely. Every time I get those shields down, I have access to a completely other level of erotic connection. And presence. Good sex. And presence. And that's how they're linked. Right. When I get my shields down, it's like, oh, all the parts of me are here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So when we talk about authenticity. Right. When, I mean, this word just gets used constantly. Well, I can be authentic, but we are only conscious of just so much ourselves and a lot of us.

is residing in the unconscious layers. The ability to show up in presence with another and be vulnerable. This is often where we meet. a bigger authenticity. Like, oh, there's more of me than I previously realized. Which also brings us to the third thing on the list.

Exploration. There's this quality of we don't have just our day-to-day sexual script. Like couples, dyads have sexual scripts. You can see this in a lot of sex research. We get into a pattern. We establish a pattern. The pattern works for us. And by works, it doesn't mean any particular thing. What works for one dyad doesn't necessarily work for another. Some dyads are...

are aiming at mutual orgasm. Some dyads don't care about orgasm. Some dyads are, their pattern is all about providing more pleasure for one than the other. Whatever. Whatever it is. We all have our patterns. We all have them. Yeah. And then. And there's nothing wrong with them. No. No. They're a part of how we access sex. Yeah. Great. And if you're curious what your pattern is.

and you're willing to do it, you can identify it. Take five minutes and describe what's the most common way like sex gets initiated with one of your particular partners and describe it. Who puts a hand on a hip in bed? And how do you turn? And then who tends to change their position? And what positions do you get into? And how long do you have sex? And what position do you get into in order to orgasm? What fantasy do you talk about? We have patterns. And those patterns aren't bad.

But the third thing on the list in this particular study is exploration. The spirit of... Let's keep discovering. Let's keep discovering what works for us, what doesn't, but also let's keep discovering the possibilities. Yes. What's even, what is Eros? What is? What does it mean to be erotically connected? You have to bring a spirit of curiosity. Right. And in my experience, coming from my particular background, the where.

People didn't talk about sex. The vulnerability of asking a question, just asking a question is something that I've been learning to do better. So the vulnerability of asking an erotic question. Right. And I don't just mean asking with your words. But asking with your body. Right, yes. Asking the erotic question. Exploring. Entering into the dialogue between our bodies. Where you don't necessarily know what's going to happen next.

Yeah. Which is scary. It's scary. Yeah. And thrilling. Like in the, in the like root sense of the word, it is thrilling, which is to say it is scary. It is activating and it. And it brings you totally present. Right. Exactly. Yeah. So it's funny because it brings you to the present. It brings you into an embodied presence and simultaneously a sense of transcendence.

Yes. Transcending ordinary time, right? We're completely immersed in the moment to the degree that time loses meaning or transcendence. as in we start to interact with our own imagination. We start to interact with, and this is where I talk about orgasmic imagination, the place that we slip to when we are.

beyond our ego and we're having sex and we're engaged fully in our pleasure and even Even more so for me, I think about the place I go to when I am able to do all of that and be vulnerable and share that, show that, not just with another body, but share it with my words, show the other how I fully embody. my sexual pleasure, that kind of transcendence is something that takes, it takes trust in the self and the other. It takes also creating a setting, a set and setting that.

can hold that, right? That can't just happen anywhere. I can have really hot, amazing sex in a place where I feel Well, it might feel really erotic because it feels unsafe, but I probably won't have transcendent sex there. And there's another book on my shelf by Jenny Wade. specifically about the studies she did, the stories she collected of transcendent sex and how the wide variety of ways that people experience sex far beyond just.

the here and now body, but the subtle body and the transcendent experience. And I find it, part of it being transcending the, well, transcending the rational, being open to the irrational. Transcending the need for everything to make sense and to follow linearly or logically, transcending the day-to-day. mundanity of a fairly straightforward physical world. Yeah. And there are other ways to do it, but sex is a really fun way. It's a really fun way.

Um, okay. So that brings us to the last thing that I, you know, I summarized this deeply. So this is like, this is.

lots of words in studies and lots of words in this book. I boiled it down to these core principles. And the last one on this list is the treating the intimacy between myself and the person I am having this erotic experience with, treating it as the sacred, profound thing that it is. It's not just about technique or about being good at it, but experiencing.

We are here in this together. And I think that ties all of these together, right? Can I be vulnerable? Can I be known in my mess, in my confusion, in my fantasies, in my... erotic everything can I be at my own growing edge where I don't even know like you said what will happen next And will I, in addition to being present for myself, will I also be open to the presence of my partner or partners? Like that, that intimacy is.

self-intimacy. I'm with me. Okay. I'm going to welcome all my pieces. Oh, and I'm also with you and I'm going to welcome all your pieces. And then they're going to co-mingle. And then they're going to co-mingle. And now we have entirely new.

elements of the whatever it is that we are in that experience. Okay, so if those are the key themes of co-creating Magnificent Sex, what the fuck were we doing wrong for 18 months? That's an awesome question. Because here I am. I've been doing this professionally, teaching about sex and how to... unblock things for a long time, but that doesn't, that didn't stop me from falling into this spot where with someone who I care about and I have access to a lot of the time. Yep. What the hell happened?

What was missing for you? Where had, on that, looking at that list, what would you claim as like, oh, that was, I was struggling there. Would you like that alphabetically or categorically? Because as I look through this and I put myself back into that time. Um, I think that presence was missing and without the presence, none of the other parts could work.

And by a presence, I mean, I wasn't even really available to myself. I still don't know exactly what happened, but I know that I was distancing myself from my... my most real self, which is to say, I guess that I was spending too much time in personas, too much time trying to be something and not just being me. Yeah. I, uh, Okay. I want to claim, I know when this all started.

I didn't even realize what was happening, but we got several months into this real significant slump and this feeling of like, ugh, things are not working right. And as the weeks were... passing and things were feeling not right and then they turned into a few months, I lost the capacity to easily be vulnerable with you. Right. Yep.

And you said, oh, well, you show up fully with that. You have such easy access to being vulnerable and to being authentic. Yep, until I don't. When you're in a trusting environment. And by trust, not just trusting you, but trusting that this could go the way I hope it will. So I was protecting myself from foiled expectations. I didn't want...

to set myself up to be disappointed. So I started lowering my own expectations, which pulled my vulnerability back and pulled my curiosity back. I was just like a smaller version of myself. If you're lowering your expectations, you are, by definition, not exploring. Yeah. You're not open to being disappointed. You're not exploring. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Yeah. And one of the things that...

So there's this great quote by Hillman in Myth of Analysis. He talks about how erotic encounters can loosen the ego's grip. And I remember reading that and thinking that that is why. Many, many years ago when you and I started interacting, we went from friendship where we had quite a lot of eros, I think, friendship, non-sexual eros that passed between us that we would...

we were both aware of, I think. But when we shifted from that to sexually magnified erotic energy, yeah, the first thing that I experienced was holy crap, I don't even know who I am. This is different. Something's different here. And since then, I have had magnificent sex with other people. But the thing that time and time again… I come back to in our connection is that I can consistently allow that to happen. I can allow my ego to be freed from this.

It's desperate desire to control everything. And that's hard. So you said trust. Well, I need to have a trust that our shared container can hold me. If I allow my ego to not be running the show. Right. Yep. And, and you mentioned that about ego and I think, right. So I wasn't. present with myself because i was putting up all of these personas these barriers the ego my ego was just protecting itself it was grabbing a hold and trying to control everything yeah

That's not going to result in magnificent sex. Not even with myself. And I see you tested your hypothesis over and over again. It's true. Please don't test it anymore. Then you need to. I feel comfortable about my conclusions and I believe that I, I'm ready to share them with other people. Yeah. Don't do that. It doesn't work. Excellent. Okay. So.

We did an episode a while back now on nurturing established relationship energy. And that episode was recorded a few weeks after we had taken ourselves on retreat. to finally like to we had we had crested the worst the worst of this like total disaster that our sex life had become we started to get back on track but

We were still struggling. Things were still like we were there, but we were both very tentative. Very tentative because it had gone so badly so often that it was hard to take that risk of... This time it'll be better. Yeah. Yeah. And so in that episode, we go into detail about what we did to create some. a liminal container, some safe space to explore and rediscover with each other. Um, and so I think that episode goes really well with this one because also that was, so that happened and.

That's the line in the sand that I can feel how I drew this line. I'm like, okay, we're done. We got through that time. And I thought we were climbing out of it for a few months before. And then, okay, we're there. Because things started to get better in February. Yeah. But it was May when I was like. We got it. Okay. We found each other. We found how this connection works again. And that was very relaxing. And now it's been several more months.

And things are going well. So I think it's good to talk about the practical tips. So what do we do to nourish this in an ongoing way? It's scary to know it can all fall apart. And I want to say, full disclosure, we had this episode. On our list of one. Okay, we're going to make this episode. Yeah, the title. We were in the middle of this swamp. And we're like, we can't do it now. I don't think we have the slightest idea what we're doing.

Well, you know what's funny is I think that might've actually been an inflection point in the swamp. I think it was, yeah. Because that was when, so I had gotten the show notes already. I had prepped the research. We had talked about the episode as a theoretical thing, and then we went to record it.

The two of us actually acknowledging this is bullshit right now. No, I'm not, I can't talk about this with you. Maybe I could have somebody else. Maybe, maybe I could have somebody else come on and talk to me about this right now, but I can't. I could talk about it for a. theoretical perspective, but I can't. Not from a lived experience. I love this podcast in part because it is you and I in conversation. And it's messy that way. I mean, I could offer just a professional, like clean, like neat.

here like this. But that's not what this is. This is a conversation between you and I and we were a freaking mess. We were an absolute mess. And the idea of having done this episode back then is so laughable. And when I look at that list of the key themes, and you alluded to this, they need a container in order to really... Well, I don't know. I know I need a container, a safe, safe, a safe set and setting. Yeah. That will allow me to be present.

to be vulnerable, to explore with curiosity and risk disappointment, all of those things. I want to feel that I want to reduce the things that are going to make that scary. for whatever reason, and I still don't totally understand it, during that time, I couldn't do it. I either couldn't accept a container, I both couldn't accept a container, and I couldn't create one.

Yeah. So none of those things were available. So if we're going to work toward including those elements, I think we've got to start with cultivating a space where we can be present. Yep. Right. So that's not just a physical space. That's also the time and the ritual. Like what, and I, ritual, broadest sense of the term. How do you start? We were struggling in part because.

Our old patterns weren't working anymore. And it's not like we didn't try some ritual stuff. It's not like we didn't try to engage. But as we got... freaked out. It also became a little bit scary to try to create the space. But then we got into another pattern. A fuller discussion of this belongs in a separate episode, but we got into the blame game.

I got frustrated because I wanted you to do it. You got frustrated because you wanted me to do it. And you're tossing the hot potato back and forth with why don't you create a safe enough container where we can do some. extended eye contact, some eye gazing, or we can do some breath work together, or we can just slow down and listen to music before we start. Can we move together or hug before we even move through this?

It got to a spot where like we were, we were frustrated with ourselves and each other. So we weren't actually able to cultivate presence. And the thing that strikes me right now is we needed some really.

really straightforward interventions. One of the things that broke through the fear and the blame was, well, I suggested something I have suggested to lots of people. I said, How about if instead of trying to be spontaneous, we go back and we've talked about this a million times, we go back and either schedule, schedule the time or make a clear direct request. And I know with the way your brain works.

A verbal request won't necessarily penetrate. Yeah, it doesn't penetrate the same way. Not reliable. I suggested, how about if I take an index card and I write down an offer? that I have for you or a request. And that was amazing for my brain. My brain was like, oh, okay, I can work with that. Yeah. Married had been so tentative, like you said, and nervous. And then it's like, oh, I know exactly what's expected and what to expect. It cleared a lot of...

gunk out of the way. And that was really helpful because that was something I could do for you. I could make an offer or a request or both, but also make it short enough to fit on an index card. And also remember that this was a starting point. And you were at choice. You didn't have to say yes to it. And you didn't have to agree to the specific time. But it started with things like.

On Friday night, after 9 p.m., would you please set up the massage table and give me 30 minutes of massage with the intention? to move toward erotic energy and sex toward the end of it. And then, and then C, like, are you open to that? But writing it down and I like. It's funny to me because we have done this in the distant past, but we hadn't used that tool in what felt like a bajillion years. But it seemed like it broke through the...

terror. Actually, as I watched you start to react to these cards I was sharing with you, and they did get dirtier and dirtier. That was like... With my nice version. That was the tamest one. I mean, this is going on YouTube, man. I got to be careful. You got to be careful. We don't want to have to click that button. Yeah. Well, we have to click that button, but I don't want to have to just get booted completely.

As I started to share these index cards with you over a few weeks, I noticed that it was like... it was like the ice was getting chipped away or something. It was, it was like something that had been, you've had such care and presence in the past. I hadn't even noticed that it wasn't there and that it wasn't. that our sex life was a struggle. It's that you and I, like I, there was distance between us. We were right up against each other, but there was massive.

distance. There was a barrier. There was something between us and it was starting to thaw out or get chipped away or the shields were coming down again. And I wonder for you, so you're a little uh neuro atypical would you say seems to be yeah uh was it the writing was it having it written down that felt calming was it that i was offering this instead of instead of just asking

like so do you wanna what i think the writing had something to do with it because at root what made it feel safe what's what helped melt breakdown whatever was that i understood the expectations in a way that I was tangling in. Oh, that's it. I was tangling up the expectations in my head. I'd be like, no, I don't think I've quite got it. I know she said this, but I'm not actually now. I'm not sure she used those words. Oh, shoot.

I think I know what she meant. Uh-oh. Yeah. And it would just spin and spin and tangle. And then nothing would happen or it would just be messy. Well, you experienced the other side of that a couple times. produced some pretty big ruptures because you'd be like, oh, I asked for this thing. It was very clear. And it's like, yeah, when it went in, it was. And then my brain just went nuts on it. Having the index card.

Let me just continually revisit it. And just knowing I could helped me know what it was even without looking at it. So I don't know what was going on. He hasn't been walking around having sex with me while holding an index card and reading it. But you know what? It's like one of those twister maps. If that's how it had to be, you know what? You do what you're going to do to get there. I'll put a stick in it on my forehead. I, you know, get a map tattooed on my back. Whatever you need, buddy.

I bring up your neuro atypicalness because I, yes. So, okay. Let's just go ahead and use the example. Okay, y'all. If you haven't heard me say it before, I am a person who is aroused by jealousy. So one of the easiest entry points for me to say like, yeah, so I'm open to sex. Why don't you just start a jealousy fantasy for me? Just like.

That. Easy. Straightforward. We've done it a million times. Make me jealous, you said. Yeah. We've done it a million times. It's not a hard thing to interpret. And yet. And yet. So I walked to the bathroom and by the time I came back. I don't know who was in that bed, but...

he was unfamiliar to me and not in like the fun, sexy, Oh, this is a new person. It was, it was like you were a shell of yourself. You couldn't remember what jealousy was. You couldn't remember how the talk you were. I wasn't a shell. I was like a fitted sheet when you take it out of the dryer and there's been like a wet face cloth in it and it all wraps all around it. And you know, it was not good. Not good.

So it was a simple, it was the same kind of simple, here's my request. And you had said, yes, absolutely. And then I wound up with foiled expectations. Complete confusion about what is happening. But you know how to do this. Why aren't you doing it? And you were also confused. Because.

You also didn't know why it wasn't working and you couldn't actually hold the thought in your head. So you didn't even know what it was that you were missing the mark on. And yeah, talk about rupture. I mean, yeah, that, that. That particular instance turned into a whole weekend of like, are you kidding me? Like, where are we? What is happening? What's going on? Why is this so hard all of a sudden? So we're sharing all of this because.

I think we act like we're supposed to get sex figured out and then it'll just happen. And then it'll just stay that way, yeah. But you know what? We play at the cutting edge, at the growth edge of our relationship all the time. We play at the edge of our own sexual eroticism, our own desire all the time. And one of the things that had happened leading up to the swamp.

was we've been playing really hard at the edge. Yeah. Maybe we got overwhelmed. Maybe there was just too much on our plates. But for whatever reason, coming back from that. was it required some extraordinarily rudimentary interventions. So all this stuff, all this fancy cultivating presence and being emotionally vulnerable and...

stretch your sense of time to the transcendent. Like that all sounds really nice, but you could also try things like writing down a request on an index card. You could also try three minutes of eye gazing followed by um, four minutes of, of the, uh, the, or another three minutes play the three minute game from Betty Martin. I like, we can link all of these in, uh, in the show notes. It doesn't have to be.

hard um it doesn't have to oh it doesn't have to be complicated it doesn't have to be complicated it doesn't have to be esoteric it can actually be it can be basic very very basic and

One of the ways that I feel like, so another tip I would say is I started going back to reflect on what my erotic truth was. Like what? what do I actually want? Because I think during the swampland times, I was starting to just play into, okay, whatever.

Whatever will work. So we started playing more and more with your fantasy life and less and less with mine. Right. And we started leaning into what was working for you because we didn't stop having sex during those 18 months. It was just not working. Right. And it was. Not as frequent. And so as we started to come out of it, it became really obvious to me that I had lost myself in the mix. I wasn't actually.

meeting my own sexual needs and I wasn't being erotically honest. And so I went back to another straightforward, basic, like everyone should read it text. The Erotic Mind by Jack Morin was written in 1990. Um, Jack talks about four core erotic themes. He divides them up into their little, their little neat little categories and the. The idea here, the idea of understanding your core erotic theme, super, super important. And also, easy somehow to forget.

What my own core erotic theme is, that blows my mind. Like why? Why would it? It's mine. How would I lose track of what turns me on? Jack Morton talks about how attraction plus obstacles equals excitement. And then he talks about these core erotic themes like overcoming ambivalence and violating taboo.

And these themes, we can outline all of them. Maybe we should do a whole episode. I think we should. I think that would be a great idea. Okay, yeah. It deserves its own whole episode. But what I realized is, oh, we had focused. all of our sex or 90% of it on your or erotic themes. And I had actually forgotten what mine were. Yeah. Nothing patriarchal about that. I was barely even using them with other people or in my own solo sex life. I was just kind of, I had just like kind of.

backed off. Like I couldn't get this need met and things were messy and I just kind of dropped my thread. And so I was meeting other people's erotic needs, but I wasn't tending to my own. And that is a mistake. So the reason I like to return to that particular book and that particular exploration is the simplicity of looking at...

predefined tool. Like, hey, here's an exploration. It was laid out in front of me. So I didn't actually have to coach myself through it. And I didn't have to do the uncomfortable thing of just saying like, so what do you fantasize about? I actually, because that just kept getting me back in the same loop of, well, actually, so it's about what Ken fantasizes about or about what one of my other lovers fantasize. No, let's go back to those themes and just look at them.

Oh, there's mine. Oh, we're never touching that. Uh-oh. Uh-oh. So we've been consciously working on making sure that there's more balanced split. And that actually isn't just about how we initiate, but… also about looking, like we do a little bit of a review. Yeah. I've noticed, so you do a great job now of tracking, doing a little sex tracking, like what's going on, not just when we've had sex, but.

What was the theme? What kind of sex was it? So that we don't fall into this habit, this habitual practice of only leaning into one person's fantasies. And that's been really helpful because I don't... think of myself as an over-functioner in... I am a confident and... You'd have to say selfish. Selfish lover? Yeah. I am.

Or at least that's how I think of myself, and I think it's how I have typically moved, and I'm perfectly fine with that. But then I fell into my other big pattern, like my big life pattern, which is... over-functioning, stepping in and doing other people's work for them, making things work even at great personal cost. And I lost my own erotic self for a bit.

Sex isn't going to be magnificent that way. Nope. It sure as hell won't. So as we wrap up, you want to talk about some specific things people can do to...

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, first off, schedule sex dates without goals. Like shift out of we have to have sex or we have to have an orgasm into touch and connection. And that might require. Again, some creativity. There are a lot of wonderful resources out there to help you make that shift. If you haven't read The Wheel of Consent by Betty Martin or done some work with The Wheel of Consent School, there are so many options.

Um, also play with, um, play with what you don't typically do. Like if you tend to have like long sessions of sex, try quickies and vice versa. My other go-to, of course, is going to be explore how shadow shows up in your sex life. I have a whole masterclass on exploring your sexual shadow. What is in your sexual shadow?

In that masterclass, I have outlined a dozen different ways that we can identify what's in our sexual shadow. And the sexual shadow is, it is all the stuff that is inside my erotic zone, but just barely able to be brought to the peripheral of my conscious vision, right? So it's very hot. It's really erotic and a little bit sketchy for me. Not necessarily scary, but like, ooh, this is, oh, we are playing with the, like right at the edge of what.

is okay. So we're playing with themes that are unique to us. By the way, your sexual shadow is entirely 100% unique to you. The only way you can do sexual shadow work is to do the personal exploration of your psyche in relationship to sexual erotic play. So we'll put a link to that masterclass here as well, because that is a great... It's a great way to start re-exploring and if you've gotten stuck. And if I could go back and tell the frustrated version of me a couple years ago, I would say, go.

go back and get the workbook out of that class and go through it yourself as if you've never seen any of this material again. And I think what I would have found is, oh, I'm not playing at my edge. I'm playing in all safe zones right now. course this isn't magnificent yeah it can be what you're touching on there is it can be hard to see hard to spot the patterns yeah and so going back to basics can and just

Working through them can just break patterns you didn't even know were happening. Right. And I want to put in a plug for stretching your erotic vocabulary. Oh, hell yes. Right? Yes, yes. Try naming sensations. Use the word that... That describes the sensation you're experiencing so that your partners can hear it and know what you're experiencing. So when he says that, he means words like tingling or swelling.

Or engorged or I'm feeling waves of heat. Yeah. Whatever it is. Grow your ability to actually name your sensations, but also grow your actual, like your sexual vocabulary. I have people do an exercise all the time. I have this great big long list of words that have sexual overtones. And I ask people to go through it. And I say, I want you to cross off all the words that you do not want to hear because they give you the ick.

I want you to circle the words you're okay with, and I want you to put stars and hearts all around the ones that you're like, yes, please, more, more, more, more, more. And then get courageous and share that with the people you want to know how to turn you on. Because what you're doing there is you're strengthening your ability to be mutually present. Yeah. Yeah. You know what? We shouldn't leave out the benefit of...

also getting clear on how are we going to take care of each other after we do all this play? Oh, yeah. No, we definitely don't want to leave that out. If we're going to build a set and setting that are safe enough to increase our erotic... juiciness. And I need to know that when I'm done, we've got the tools to catch each other. Right.

And this can be tricky, right? Because if we're doing, say, a DS, a domination submission scene, then we can have a plan for how we're each going to show up and then like... how aftercare is going to be provided according to exactly how power was exchanged in that. But then there's all the rest of the sex we have where we don't necessarily know how power is going to get exchanged ahead of time.

We don't necessarily know what's going to play out because we're not negotiating everything. We're experimenting. Yeah. And so having some baseline plans for how are you going to ground, how are you going to get back to a sense of, okay, I'm here. Yeah. Maybe I had left the room for a while, but I'm here. Who's going to, or are we going to have water nearby so that we can have a drink? Is there a snack nearby? Who's going to offer reassurance first? Do we need to do any de-rolling?

Did we get into a fantasy where we were saying things that touched on our humiliation or the parts of us that don't feel like we want to carry them around all the time? De-rolling and saying, hey. Hi, I see you. You're my beloved. You are not all of these things that we just said. In fact, you are luscious and beautiful and sacred, and you are here with me now.

And de-rolling is so powerful. It is so powerful. And you mentioned grounding and conversations outside of this erotic container. Have the conversations to find out what grounds. each of you so that you can start to incorporate them into your aftercare rituals. And if, if you find that, Oh, it wasn't quite an, I said that was grounding, but it wasn't quite enough. Great. Note that.

And update your rituals to be the things they need. I was going to say they don't need to make sense. They won't make sense. Don't try to make them make sense. Just let them be what they are. And I'm all for, like, can we please just acknowledge that we all need different supports to make this work? Yeah. For about four years in...

kind of right in the middle of the length of our relationship right now, there was a sticky note above your side of the headboard of our bed. What did that sticky note have on it, Ken? Oh my God. I don't remember. It was the aftercare list. Oh, okay. Okay. I was thinking of the aftercare list because now I have it on a door next to our bed. It's not.

It's not always out looking. I didn't even know you have it there. No, I still have it. No, right. The aftercare list. Absolutely. I needed to have it right there on the headboard so that there were no barriers to me looking at it and reminding me of what aftercare.

means and what it means for you and how to do it it was just a list of like four words yeah they were very important words they were very very important keys like they were yep this needs to happen and i didn't need that particular tool because That's not how my memory works. I can just call up like, oh, what does this moment need? You don't need the index cards either.

No, but I do like them. They're fun, but you don't need them the way I do. I really like getting one. In fact, I think I have one here from you that I don't think we've enacted yet. Yeah, that's right. If I were not flexible, if I were rigidly fixed to the idea that you just should know and you should remember and that's how you would be a good lover, that's how you would show up and be in this.

That's not actually fair to you, how you work. No, because notice I didn't remember what was on the sticky note. Right. I remember it being there, but I didn't remember what was on it. Yeah. But it was important enough that I still have it. I still have it where I can just open up the door that's within arm's reach of my side of the bed and look at it so that I don't miss anything. That's I know that's care. The fact that it's not.

written on the inside of my forehead isn't the important part. The important part is I'm thinking, oh, now I should check in and find out what she needs right now. After all of the whatever it is we just did. It's so, it matters so much to me that we talk about this because, um, we get these, these fixed ideas of what it should look like. And we forget that. We all need accommodations. And I mean, we need to accommodate ourselves. That wasn't, it's, you wrote the sticky note.

for yourself in consultation with me. I was tired of screwing it up over and over. I don't know what you do with other partners, but I know that's how you do it for me. And, but if I had given you. If I'd rolled my eyes because you were looking at the list, that's not actually supportive of you as you are. And it is so disconnecting and so disrespectful. I'm grateful that I was presented the idea that we should meet people where they are and let them have the supports that they need because…

I can imagine a version of myself that would, that would say, well, it doesn't count then. It doesn't matter. I need you to do it this way or it doesn't matter. And we would still be in the swamplands because, yeah, because you need the checklist. I need the checklist. Now we're getting. what we want again. Yeah. So, there are, we could actually, we could go on and on. Spend all, yeah. As long as we want it on this. I mean, we could, we could do a whole retreat just on this.

The erotic is, it is such a sacred psychological space. It matters so much to me. I am so, I'm so grateful. Thank you for working through the total disaster of the Swampland time. And for owning your parts of it. Thank you for giving me a safe place to be a mess. for finding ways out of it with me, like for not giving up on yourself or us as we found our way through it and into the next thing. And my guess is this won't be the only time we go through.

a dark night of our sex soul. I wouldn't say I'm looking forward to it, but I am looking forward to having this episode and the others that we've mentioned to look back on and say, we have overcome. these challenges before. We can absolutely do it again. I'm so, so grateful. We talk to you all the time. It is absolutely...

Imperative to me that we get to hear from you as well. Yes, please. So we'd love to invite you to join us. Join Ken and I. We're holding monthly Ask Me Anythings. You can show up. Bring your questions from podcast episodes, from your relationships. Bring questions about non-monogamy, about individuation, about relationship skills. We would love to share space with you. We're hosting these AMAs.

free of charge for our podcast listeners. You are the Playing With Fire community and it matters a ton to us that we connect with you directly. Oh, I would so love to hear your questions and oh, it'd be so awesome. Yeah. Go to JolieHamilton.com forward slash AMA and you'll find a way to sign up real quickie quick and get an invitation to join us in a small group where we're going to get together and talk about all things non-monogamy, individuation, and relationships.