Welcome to Playing With Fire, the podcast for people who are ready to custom build their love. We're talking about non-monogamy, however you design it, as an individuation opportunity. Want to leave the default and make your life spectacularly you? You're in the right place. Welcome to an episode of a podcast you've probably never heard of and never really wanted to, but here we are. I'm Dr. Jolie Hamilton. I'm Ken Hamilton.
And we are the hosts of Playing With Fire. And I know you already just heard that, but I'm saying it again because you were probably sent this episode by someone who you love, someone who you care about, who wants you to understand a little bit. better what it is they mean when they say that they are either opening their relationship or in an open relationship or that they are in an open relationship status. So we are...
open, relating people ourselves. We're non-monogamous. And we happen to be married to each other. We also have seven children. Now that's enough to stop most people in their tracks. But also... I specialize as a depth psychologist. I specialize in helping people who are figuring out how to transition from monogamy. to whatever form of non-monogamy or open relationship or creative monogamy or possibly monogamy but in a really conscious
well thought out way. So that's my specialty. And Ken, we've been married now for almost 11 years. Yes. Yeah. And together for 15 and friends our whole lives. And Ken is along with me having these conversations. And so we wanted to offer a conversation for you because... Well, we've been where you are. We've each watched people that we care about transition into relationship styles or other life choices that we didn't necessarily understand.
even really know what to think about. But also we have been on the other side. We've been in a position of trying to share who we are. with our family, with our friends, and having them kind of freak out. And that is not an easy space for any of the people involved because it can lead to breakdown of relationship, which is the exact opposite of what... Right. We want. Yep. We acknowledge that it, and we've had the experience that it can, these conversations can be very confusing.
And that confusion can lead to all sorts of breakdowns of communication, misunderstandings, and we'd like to help. Yeah. So I wanted to start off by addressing... The elephant in the room that is non-monogamy or open relating, it's not perfect. And it is not... better than or more correct than monogamy. We don't demonize monogamy. In fact, we celebrate it for people who choose it consciously and want that for themselves and it works well for them. Awesome. Love that.
This isn't about choosing sides or about trying to figure out how to have the most evolved kind of relationship. No. This is about making space for a multiplicity of types of relating. Being able to really be with that and learn to embrace the fact that when the people in our lives design the relationships that work best for them, everything works better.
So if you're on board with the idea that there could be more than one kind of relationship. Then great. You're actually in great shape. You're most of the way there. If you're struggling with that. Then you might have found yourself saying recently, like, we're just really concerned. And I know that's what my own mom said to me when I was shifting from monogamy.
I went straight into a pretty complicated and messy triad situation. And she said to me, she looked me up and down. She's like, I love you and I am concerned. And she was right to be concerned. I've told my story a lot. I'm not going to do it here, but it's out there. And there was a lot of stuff going on that wasn't ideal. But also, everybody's story is unique. And there is no one way. Ken, did anybody voice any concern when it was becoming obvious to others that you were?
Yeah, I had some I had some family members reach out and express basically say that I'm concerned. And it was. I hear you describe your mother's comment. It sounds so similar. On my part, it was, I'm concerned. And that was kind of where it ended because of the complete. Lack of understanding of what was possible or what they were even concerned about. Right. So weird. And I don't understand it essentially. Yeah. So if, if right now you're sitting in a spot where you're like, okay, so.
I don't know what open relationships really are, but I know that they never work out. That is something that I heard ad nauseum. I heard it so much. And later when I was getting my doctorate, I was. many years into my non-monogamy at that point. And I was asked the question like, yeah, but why would we talk about that? Why would we research it? Because my primary academic research as a psychologist is in jealousy.
The person who was questioning me for my competency exam said, why would we research that? We know it never works. Non-monogamy never works. And I think that's what you face from your family members, Ken, was just kind of a general sentiment that like, yeah, I know it's tempting.
To have multiple relationships, but it never works out. But the assumption that it was going to be bad. Right. And I want to look at that from a really generous perspective. If you're sitting there saying, yeah, but we know it never works. I mean, let's define what works is. That's important. When I work with people...
It's not one thing thereafter. A lot of people decide to be non-monogamous to meet some very specific needs, some needs for community, some needs to not be caught in a cultural script that just doesn't feel. like it fits them, that script of monogamy. Sometimes they're looking to meet emotional needs or sexual needs or creative needs, sensual needs.
have never been well met in their relationships. And while these might be things that you don't talk about at Christmas dinner, those are real needs of the people you care about. And so when you say it doesn't work out, I would just ask you to slow down and say, what does it mean for it to work? What would it mean? How do you feel a working relationship from one that isn't working? Because when your beloved...
family member or friend is like, well, we're going to try this. I'm going to try this. I'm going to do my relationships differently. It's because something in their current life also isn't working. And we know like the data already tells us that. non-monogamy isn't perfect. And the data tells us that monogamy isn't perfect. They don't work from the perspective of, yeah, sometimes bad stuff happens. So if we use the metric, monogamy tends to use the metric of,
Does this relationship last? Is it enduring? So you and I can have been together for 15 years. I find that to be quite durable. It's almost as long as I was with my first husband. I was with him for 17 years. Durability was like the metric in that first marriage. What metric did you use in previous relationships? Do you remember? How did you measure whether it was working? Lack of conflict.
Oh, okay. So low conflict. Yep. You wanted things to be level and steady. In my first marriage, it was about no surprises, no... uh fights no arguments uh barely even any real um intense feeling so yeah it was about things were nice and smooth and level and you know everybody gets to choose their own definition for sure. So did you achieve that goal? Yeah, actually, I think we did. Yeah. So I would call that a success. Yeah.
in so far as like what you were looking for. And then when your needs changed and you no longer wanted that to be the primary way that you measured your relationship, then your relationship needed to change. So when we use that monogamous standard of how long a relationship lasts as the single metric, we're missing so many other wonderful ways that we can look at whether a relationship is working.
Um, I, so I would encourage you to be curious and ask, ask people, and this isn't just ask the person who shared this podcast with you, but This is a great point of curiosity for anybody in all kinds of relationships. Just like, Hey, what, what makes a relationship feel like it's working for you? And from that place, it can be easier to understand like, wow, we are. We are all different and we all want different things.
One of the things that makes a relationship feel like it's working for me is if I feel a level of engagement and intellectual challenging like that, that feels good. I like to be in really intense conversations. So that happens in some of my friendships, and that happens in some of my romantic partnerships, and it happens with strangers. And I would call all of those things successful if we maintain those conversations with integrity and kindness to each other.
So that's one thing that I would ask everybody to do. Just from a philosophical perspective, remember that they may not measure relational success the way that you do. And so when you say that doesn't work, maybe relax your grip around that and dig a little deeper because I'm guessing you have other concerns.
Because it is true that if your definition of what works is that a relationship be monogamous, then a polyamorous relationship... is not going to work yeah so it totally depends on the lens you're using to evaluate it yeah so if we if we make some space for the idea that lots of different kinds of relationships could potentially be good for people, for different kinds of people, then I think that there are still some basic concerns. And I have heard these a lot. One of them is
This isn't what we expected. This isn't what we expected. So I'm wondering, and this is a time to really just be gentle with yourself, but are you concerned because you're worried about how other people... We'll see your child, your sibling, your parents, now that they are non-monogamous, they're polyamorous. Are you worried about how they're going to be seen? And are you worried about that for them?
Or are you worried about that for you? Are you worried about how you may be perceived differently based on the relationships that your child or cousin or sibling or parent is having? You know, there's no, I don't have an answer here for you. I just want you to be clear on that concern that you're feeling. Like, is it because you're really worried about them or is it because you're worried about you? And if it is about worried about you.
I just want to caution you that they're asking someone to not share this truth with you. It's asking them to not relate to you. And that's probably not what you want. You probably want to have a better, deeper relationship with this person or with these people. And so it may take some time to get used to the idea that. Yeah, they might be perceived differently than you would hope. They may experience some marginalization or some discrimination. That is possible.
Um, that's true with anytime anybody's doing anything outside the mainstream and that might be really upsetting to you. And that's something to talk about without making it their problem. It's tender stuff. It really is. I know I remember my father having this sort of torn. sense of, well, I'm proud of you for living your authentic life while also like, do you have to like, do you really need to like talk about it in public?
And I remember telling him like, well, yeah, I do. Not everybody does. Some people are perfectly happy to keep their private life private. I like to live my private life in a fully out way. So remember that there isn't a right way to do this either. And it might be uncomfortable for you. And from that perspective, one of the things we can do for all of our relational well-being is figure out how to just sit with the discomfort.
We can be uncomfortable with something without breaking off a relationship or without saying hurtful things. And I think I remember my my. Some of my earliest interactions with people around this were about, let's agree that we don't see eye to eye on this, but let's learn how to relate to each other okay again. Let's figure this out.
As you've been telling your stories about your experiences with your family, I had a much smaller amount of interaction with mine because, I mean, not all of them were alive anymore. um it occurs to me that one of the things you can do for someone who has come to you and said this is you know this is what i'm doing uh is
As best you can, let it be a topic of conversation. Yeah, don't ask them not to talk about it. Don't ask them not to talk about it. That was, I think, the worst thing about my family's response. I got one. uh, one call, one single phone call saying, Hey, I'm not sure what's going on. They never followed up on it. They never mentioned it again. And that wasn't, you know, that made me feel. just you know as separated as um
Well, much more separated than if any of them had come to me and even tried to talk me out of it. That would have been a completely different circumstance because then we would have been in a conversation. So, yeah, if you have. concerns, if you can share them in a supportive way and a non-adversarial way, I think that's often going to be the support that the person who... came to you with this, was looking for.
Yeah, that said, let's talk about a few of the details. We have a big family. Our kids were little when we were very publicly outed in our families and on a larger stage. A lot of people voice concern about the children. So when you voice your concern, if you can do it from an educated perspective, that's ideal. And here's the cool thing is we actually have data. The researcher, Elizabeth Schaff, has been performing longitudinal data collection and studies.
from a sociological perspective on families of polyamorous individuals for, I believe, 30 years. I think we're just coming up on 30 years now. It's amazing to have this data because what the data shows is that. The kids are OK. They're more than OK. Just like in any data set, nothing's perfect. You know, not everybody can. We have seven kids, not all of them.
had the same experience of us being non-monogamous, but the kids are okay. The data backs up the idea that this is a healthy environment for kids to be raised in as an option. Just like monogamy can be a healthy option and some families are unhealthy and some in monogamy and some families are unhealthy and non-monogamy, but that's not.
It's not about the non-monogamy and it's not about monogamy, right? So separate out this idea of the relationship style itself being detrimental because the research just doesn't bear that out. So let's talk about a few of the things because we're actually not going to go much longer than this. But I wanted to share a few things that are. that would be great for you to just sort of get a handle on if you want to have conversations with your beloved people. One is there's a lot of language.
There's a lot of language around non-monogamy and polyamory and open relationship. And one of the key things that we can all do is just recognize that. You don't need to do a lot. You don't have to go listen to a million podcasts and you don't have to memorize the open relationship lexicon, but ask people what they mean. So let's say your daughter came to you and said, I'm polyamorous.
Simply ask her, tell me what polyamory means for you, because her definition and my definition might be entirely different. You know, if you're if your 72 year old father comes to you and says, you know what, I'm I'm now in. I'm considering myself open relating. I think I might be solo polyamorous. Ask him.
Ask him what that means for him. How is he using that term? Because the language is evolving all the time as languages do. And it matters most what they're doing with that word, with that language. So get curious and be in the company. conversation, it's a wonderful way to actually get to know the person in front of you rather than try to get to know this whole topic area. Right. Yeah. You don't need to know everything about it, but you have an opportunity to deepen your relationship.
with this person or people. And for that matter, you can ask people in your lives, when you're talking about relationship, let's talk about what monogamy is. I've been doing research on jealousy for years and years and years. And when I do studies with monogamous people, I ask them to describe to me.
What does monogamy mean to you? Their definitions are not all the same. Monogamy is not just one thing. So this isn't just about open relating. Let's have general conversations about this. So if you are open to it. So it's so good. It's so luscious. Can I'd like to talk a little bit about what it is? What's at the core of non-monogamy? Like the three basic things that I see are at the core of it.
What do you see there? Well, the first is consent. Yup. I, you know, so frequently people are worried like, oh, you know, my, my kid is being pressured into this. Um, I don't think that this is what they really want. Not monogamy needs to be consensual, just like monogamy needs to be consensual. Like all relationships need to be consensual. In other words, we need to be able to say no.
If you can't, that would be a problem. But the whole premise of non-monogamy really at its core is around the idea that this is consensual. And it's true. Some people. feel forced into non-monogamy. Some people feel forced into monogamy. When people are feeling forced into their relationship styles, that's not great. So we want to center consent.
rather than centering the idea that a particular relationship style is ideal. There are two other things that are really, really important to do non-monogamy well. One is... Lots of personal responsibility. We have to take responsibility for our decisions. That is, the core is right. I mean, consent, absolutely. and responsibility yeah i mean ideally it's a foundational part of all relationships um but it but it is true that in non-monogamy the um
The impact of these things can be magnified because there are more relationships involved. And taking personal responsibility for one's place in. all of your relationships becomes very important because the interconnection among everyone is tighter. And so an irresponsible act in one place can affect a whole bunch of people. So you really want to pull yourself, pull your responsibility boots on nice and tight.
Yeah. And that doesn't mean you have to do everything perfectly. Oh, no. We all mess up in our relationships at times. So the other really central feature is resilience. I teach people to build resilience, resilience to like, oh, I made a mistake. How do I repair? Or, wow, I actually agreed to something I don't like.
How do I renegotiate? Building resilience into your relationships is incredibly powerful. And it's something that I center in non-monogamy because I find that it helps us get better at all of our relationships. Right. Because the resilience, it's... It's not about trying to get back to a particular time of the relationship. I mean, we can talk about this at any level from parent-child relationships to...
childhood friend relations. This is something in every relationship, which is people grow, people change, the relationship has to change along with them. And most of that happens invisibly. We just do. we because we maintain the connection um we grow and we don't necessarily notice that the relationship is changing because we're growing meanwhile but the resilience is about maintaining the connection
in the face of whatever's happening. And so, yeah, if, if I have, um, if I have failed to uphold an agreement, if I have hurt someone, then having, um, a set of tools and strategies for re-establishing that connection. And safety and trust. Through safety and trust by taking responsibility for my actions.
It's very important in all relationships and again, more so because it can affect so many people. Well, this actually, this brings us to a great point, which is the skills of non-monogamy, they all translate to monogamy. Every single one of them. The skills of monogamy don't necessarily translate. So sometimes when we give advice to people, if I'm monogamous and I'm trying to advise like a friend who is non-monogamous, my perspective as a monogamous person.
is going to jade my advice. It's going to tilt my advice in a particular way that isn't helpful because non-monogamy really does ask us to set down a couple of fundamental premises. For instance, the idea that exclusivity is how I will feel valued and special and safe. We're actually going to set that down and start feeling valued and special and safe. in other ways. Now, this is well beyond the scope of this conversation, but imagine, imagine if even in your monogamous relationship,
If exclusivity was not the way that you measured whether your relationship was good and healthy and whole and right for you, how else would you measure it? Because there are a million ways, right?
Exclusivity is not the only way that you feel healthy, safe, well-loved. But we tend to forget about that when we're looking at non-monogamy and we're like, ah, without exclusivity, you're not safe. I'm really... really glad you brought that up about, um, yeah, so giving, um, advice or you know perspective from a monogamous standpoint to someone who's non-monogamous might not land because you know one
For example, you might say to them, well, maybe you should just focus on your partner and just put all your energy in there, which is a monogamous perspective. And I'm familiar with it. And within the monogamous container. That might work. Yeah. But not for someone who's non-monogamous in the same way that a non-monogamous person couldn't help a monogamous person by saying, well, I don't know, maybe get a boyfriend.
Right. So that wouldn't make any sense. That wouldn't work. So you have to keep in mind that there's some of our assumptions here. Some of the assumptions will not help us. Won't translate. Yeah. I do want to, before we wrap up, talk about a couple of things that are not happening in non-monogamous relationships that people worried about all the time. So first off, when somebody is coming to you telling you that they're
They're not monogamous. They're not asking for your tolerance. They're not asking for your tolerance. They're actually hoping that you will know them better. and that your relationship will get better, that you will embrace the fact that they are them and you are you, and you do not have to be doing this the same to have a healthy relationship.
That's core. The other is we're not sharing the details of our sex lives. The details of our sex lives are not being shared with our children. They're not being shared with our casual relationships. Our sex lives are our sex lives, and that is not the center. We're not centering that in conversations about non-monogamy. It's a common misunderstanding that sex is somehow integral and important.
No more so than for anyone else. And it's not any more a topic of conversation in, for example, a family than it is in any other. Right. So I'm a sex educator by profession. I trained as an ASEC certified sexuality educator. I have seven kids. I have spoken to them in developmentally appropriate ways about sexuality their whole lives. And that has nothing to do.
with my private sex life. And so if you're worried about that, just remember that is not the core concern. There are always going to be problematic people in the world oversharing details with all sorts of people. That is not the norm in any way, shape, or form. And yeah, let's wrap up by just sharing, like, what's your personal reason for being non-monogamous, Ken? My personal reason is that it's pretty straightforward. I've just pretty much never been on board with the concept of monogamy.
Like I rejected it from the outset. And yet, do you date a ton? No. Do you have a lot of partners? No. Have you had a gazillion sex partners in your life? I have not. No. You are incredibly like chill, laid back. I experienced you as a very laid back, very, um, you, you just aren't, you're not a horn dog. The way that people imagine that like men will be.
in these relationships. And I asked you to share that because I think the presumption so frequently is that this is all about centering like a dude getting more. And I know that that does happen. It absolutely does. I don't want to discount that. But in our particular core partnership here that we have between each other, I date. Way more. Way, way more than you do. I have sex with more people than you do. So the, oh. And that's okay. We're just different.
The media stories about non-monogamy and polyamory are just that. They are media stories. They're there to sell things. They're not actually... They're not representative. They're not representative. They represent that relationship and that's it. Right. And you were talking about what... what relationships are for early on. And for me, relationships are for sharing myself with someone who accepts me. Like, I love that feeling of saying, hey, here's me and having somebody saying, cool.
So what's my reason for non-monogamy aside from the fact that I just constitutionally don't quite get monogamy? Although I understand its value for lots and lots of people. This is not about vilifying it in any way. It just doesn't land for me. I would like there to be plenty of people who know me and accept me. I just like that. So if I'm looking for more, it's that. Yeah.
And my personal reason why has changed many times over the years. At times, it's been so that I had access to more sexual partners. At times, it's been so that I had access to more collaborating partners in like my family. community. And right now it is entirely about having no particular line between what a friend is and what a romantic.
someone might be and and letting that develop between me and other people and just not having an artificial line there um and that's that's just us that's the two of us in our life if you Now I would encourage you to ask the people who share this podcast, like whoever shared this, they want you to know them better. They want you to treat them with kindness and generosity of spirit.
As I'm sure you want to be seen and, and, and heard as. So have that conversation. Yeah. Be gentle with each other, but also, you know. Gentle curiosity is a beautiful thing. Yeah. Ask them if they want to talk about why. Yeah. This is our why. This is my why. This is Jolie's why. What's theirs?
Remember that in order to center consent in our relationships, we ask questions. And then if their answer is, you know, I don't want to talk about that actually. That's actually a total win for both of you. If you get a no, you also got a giant gold star from me. Receive that no and be like, oh, that's totally fine. Thanks for holding your boundary right then. Let me know if that answer changes. It is an amazing thing to build a relationship.
with all of the people you care about that centers consent in your conversations and in your actions. So thanks for taking the time to listen to this. I know you didn't know us from anywhere. I really, really appreciate it. appreciate you showing up and just taking half an hour to listen to this. I hope that the next steps in your whole relational life are to just be inclusive of the idea that all relationships should be designed.
For the people in them by the people in them. Thanks. And I hope this has helped you relax into this experience. It's an opportunity for deepening a relationship, which I'm 100% for. I hope it helps you. Thank you. We talk to you all the time. It is absolutely... imperative to me that we get to hear from you as well. Yes, please. We'd love to invite you to join us. Join Ken and I. We're holding monthly Ask Me Anythings. You can show up.
Bring your questions from podcast episodes, from your relationships. Bring questions about non-monogamy, about individuation, about relationship skills. We would love to share space with you. We're hosting these AMAs. free of charge for our podcast listeners. You are the Playing With Fire community and it matters a ton to us that we connect with you directly. Oh, I would so love to hear your questions and oh, it'd be so awesome. Yeah.
Go to JolieHamilton.com forward slash AMA and you'll find a way to sign up real quickie quick and get an invitation to join us in a small group where we're going to get together and talk about all things non-monogamy, individuation, and relationships. you